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American Morning
Search of Iraqi Governing Council Member Ahmad Chalabi's Home, Office; Interview with Rudy Giuliani
Aired May 20, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Despite world condemnation, Israeli forces on the offensive today again in Gaza. More Palestinians are dead.
Dozens of freight cars and tons of cargo thrown across the Texas countryside after two trains barrel into each other.
Also, the gator attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALCOLM LOCKE, ATTACKED BY ALLIGATOR: He bit me on the head and took a chunk out of my ear. And I punched him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: He is a 12-year-old boy with a wild story to tell, and he will, with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Welcome, everybody.
Other stories that we're following this morning, we're going to talk to former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. He testified yesterday before the 9/11 Commission. He was heckled by members of the audience, some members. He was praised by Commission members. This morning we talk to him about some of the more contentious things that were said.
HEMMER: Also this hour, the co-chairwoman and the commissioner of the panel that's issuing a highly critical report on the recruiting practices at the University of Colorado. What they found in that investigation and what they expect to happen now that they have delivered their findings in the future for that program. Questions again in Colorado.
O'BRIEN: And questions from Jack Cafferty in the Cafferty File -- good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. We're all being so nice, hoping to get a new airline -- a free airline ticket. I thought it was interesting that the day before former Mayor Giuliani testified those courageous Commission members were all busy talking about New York's response to 9/11 wasn't worthy of the Boy Scouts. But when the former mayor of the city sat down yesterday, none of them had anything to say to him. He was absolutely brilliant, and without even doing it consciously, backed that entire panel down and put them back in their seats where they belonged. Buffo, Mr. Giuliani.
Coming up in the Cafferty File, things people say. We didn't get to it yesterday. We're going to do it today.
HEMMER: Excellent. And looking forward to it.
Thank you, Jack.
Top stories here now, 8:02 in New York.
Despite an international outcry, Israel is moving ahead with intense operations in Gaza. At least seven Palestinians killed in overnight violence there. This after Israeli strikes left at least 10 Palestinians dead during a protest in Rafah yesterday. That's in the southern part of Gaza. Israeli officials say the helicopter fired only flares into the refugee camp.
Meanwhile, at the White House, the president, meeting with his cabinet yesterday, continued to urge restraint in the region.
The Pentagon denying reports that a U.S. air strike in western Iraq targeted a wedding party near the border with Syria. Funerals are being held today as Iraqi officials say more than 40 people, including small children, died in the attack yesterday. U.S. military officials say the target was a suspected foreign fighters safe house. An investigation now under way.
New photos have surfaced in the Iraq prison abuse scandal that appear to show American soldiers smiling over a dead body. In one, Specialist Charles Graner of the 372nd Military Police is seen smiling and giving the thumbs up. In the other, Specialist Sabrina Harmon, a member of the same unit, in a similar pose. While the pictures have not yet been authenticated, the soldiers who appear in them are among those who already face charges in that scandal in Iraq.
Some senior citizens in Minnesota suing nine of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies because, they say, they want cheaper medicine. The lawsuit claims the companies conspired to stop Americans from getting cheaper prescription drugs from Canada. The nine drug companies deny any wrongdoing.
Also from Ohio, the southeastern part of the state, hundreds were evacuated after severe flooding. Storms in the southeast portion caused a creek to overflow. Some evacuated by boat; others left on fire trucks. The National Weather Service says more than two inches of rain fell in about a 24 hour period. And the aerials are just striking, to see that amount of water and the folks trying to work their way through.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: A surprising military operation in Baghdad to report this morning. U.S. forces, Iraqi police raiding the home of Ahmad Chalabi. Chalabi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, also heads the Iraqi National Congress. The INC compound was also searched.
Harris Whitbeck is live for us this morning in Baghdad with details on this -- Harris, good morning.
HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.
As you said, U.S. soldiers and members of the Iraqi national police force raided the headquarters of the Iraqi National Congress, which is headed by Ahmad Chalabi, who is also a member of the Iraqi Governing Council.
Now, an INC spokesman on the ground there said that computers and personal papers were taken with no warrants. He called that an illegal act and he called it a theft. And he said that all this stems from a political dispute with the CPA in which Chalabi has said that he wants more independence after the handover on June 30.
He said that Chalabi has raised the question of direct Iraqi control of the army, the security services and financial resources. And he said that that call for independence sparked this action by U.S. soldiers and Iraqi national police.
Now, the CPA here has not commented on what occurred this afternoon. We are expecting the daily briefing from the CPA and that issue will surely be raised. And, also, we're expecting to hear from Dr. Chalabi himself. He has called a press conference for about an hour's time from now.
So, again, a lot to talk about. A lot more that we will be hearing about -- on this controversial raid. As you know, Dr. Chalabi himself has sparked some controversy in the States. His political group, the INC, had been receiving more than $300,000 a month in funding from the United States. A few weeks ago, the Pentagon announced it was cutting off that funding because basically after June 30, they will not be funding any political organizations in Iraq -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: It will be interesting to hear what he has to say.
Harris Whitbeck for us this morning in Baghdad.
Harris, thanks -- Bill.
HEMMER: The man "Time" magazine named its Person of the Year for his heroic handling of the 9/11 attacks now finding himself defending New York City's preparedness in its response to the attacks. Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani testifying before the Commission yesterday and heckled by some family members of the victims inside there. He strongly defended the emergency response of police and firefighters on that tragic day.
With us live in Phoenix, Arizona today, Rudy Giuliani is now our guest.
Good morning to you.
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Good morning.
HEMMER: And welcome back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
GIULIANI: Sure.
HEMMER: I want to use part of your words yesterday. In one of your opening statements you say, "Our enemy is not each other, but the terrorists who attacked us."
Do you believe the Commission has lost sight of that?
GIULIANI: No, I don't think the Commission as a whole has. I think some members have in the comments that they made. I mean there's no question what they're doing is very, very legitimate. You should be looking at, you know, what was done right, what was done wrong and then how can you improve on that in the future.
But it should be done in the context of the people who responded to this were responding to the worst attack in the history of this country and overall they saved a tremendous number of lives. When I was first told the number of possible casualties at the World Trade Center, within a half hour of the building coming down, I was told there could be as many as 12,000 to 15,000 people. And I know that the firefighters and the police officers, by the way in which they carried out this rescue mission, saved somewhere between 9,000 and 12,000 lives.
They weren't entirely successful. There were mistakes that were made. Hopefully in the future you can cure those mistakes. It will never be done perfectly...
HEMMER: If I could carry that...
GIULIANI: But they carried out a...
HEMMER: Right. But back to the premise, though. The hecklers who showed up yesterday to show their displeasure, they blame a lack of leadership, in part. They say they're not getting the answers they want on behalf of, perhaps, you and others that the Commission has carried out over the past several months.
Do you understand their anger? Do they have a right to be that way?
GIULIANI: Sure. They have -- first of all, you can't tell someone how to grieve. They have an absolute right to be that way. They're going through a horrible experience, a difficult experience, and they need a place to place their blame. It is very understandable.
It does not reflect the reaction of most people, however, not -- and in a -- all those questions that they wanted asked were asked. What about the radios? I mean the radios, some worked, some didn't work. The reason, the overriding reason why the radios failed on that day is the same reason why sometimes your cell phone goes out when too many people are trying to get into the same bandwidth.
The solution has to be creating a bandwidth that is dedicated solely to emergency services so that if there is an emergency and I arrive there and I'm the mayor and the fire commissioner arrives there and the police commissioner and everyone else, we can communicate on a dedicated bandwidth and not be interfered with by other communications.
And then you have to make a choice of how many communications you can have in that bandwidth.
HEMMER: And we all sat here...
GIULIANI: That should be done.
HEMMER: And we all sat here yesterday and listened to that riveting narrative that you provided yesterday just about this time, in fact.
Based on what you have learned from the Commission and how you want to make sure the city you love so much is protected in the event of a future attack, have steps been taken that are satisfactory at this point to make sure next time...
GIULIANI: Yes, they...
HEMMER: ... if you can save lives, lives are saved?
GIULIANI: Well, you know, with the understanding that a lot of lives were saved the last time, probably more lives than anyone really could expect, given the level of knowledge and information that people had. Yes, next time the effort will be even better.
Michael Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly have made significant improvements since September 11, 2001.
But, you know, if you deal with something unexpected and catastrophic, even next time something will go wrong.
HEMMER: We want to take...
GIULIANI: And it may be something different.
HEMMER: We want to take...
GIULIANI: And then we'll have to improve that. HEMMER: We want to -- I apologize for the interruption here. I'm sorry about that. John Lehman, a Commission member, on Tuesday said this before the panel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I think that the command and control and communications of this city's public service is a scandal. It's not worthy of the Boy Scouts, let alone this great city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: How do you respond to that, the Boy Scouts reference?
GIULIANI: I mean those comments are totally inappropriate and are part of the reason why, you know, a lot of people were very, very upset about the Commission. It isn't the entire Commission. It's his comments. But that isn't the way to approach this. I mean to call people names and the people that, the command and control system that he's describing as Boy Scouts saved 9,000 to 12,000 lives; saved virtually everyone they were capable of saving. And many people lost their lives in the process of doing that. And given the level of technology at the time in which they did it and the amount of notice they had, their effort was truly heroic.
Did they make mistakes? Were there things that broke down? Of course there were. And they should, those things should be focused on as lessons learned, but now the this finger pointing and name calling. That isn't appropriate.
Everyone he's talking about did their best to save lives under extraordinary conditions.
HEMMER: Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor...
GIULIANI: And that's the atmosphere in which this should be looked at.
HEMMER: Former mayor here in New York City, in Phoenix, Arizona.
Thank you.
Good to talk to you again.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
HEMMER: Soledad.
O'BRIEN: The independent commission that had been investigating the University of Colorado football program has been disbanded. Its 50-page report, which said that sex and alcohol were used to lure top recruits to the Boulder school, was delivered to C.U.'s Board of Regents yesterday. That report blames the school's top administrators for failing to monitor the football program.
Joining us this morning from Denver, commissioners Peggy Lamm and Jean McAllister.
Nice to see you.
Thanks for being with us.
Ms. Lamm, let's begin with you.
As we mentioned, the report concluded that sex and alcohol, I'm quoting here, "had long been staples of recruiting activities at the university."
Well, obviously, you're talking about a lack of oversight.
Who do you think should lose their jobs in the wake of this?
PEGGY LAMM, CO-CHAIRWOMAN, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE COMMISSION: Boy, unfortunately that's not my concern in terms of who should lose their job. And, by the way, I think this is a problem that is not just relegated to the University of Colorado. I think this is a concern that we have learned occurs across the country. Certainly the University of Colorado has not been running a perfect program, by any stretch. But there are very great concerns across the country in terms of this same question, in terms of recruiting and what -- the things that go on in that regard.
O'BRIEN: Ms. McAllister, here are some of the conclusions of the report. I'm just going to read through some of them. "Integrate the athletic department with the university administration; require disciplinary matters be put in writing; require coaches to maintain records for conduct violations; update university sexual assault policies; maintain anonymous tip line."
Can you make the changes -- and we heard Ms. Lamm sort of avoid saying -- avoid naming any names of who she'd like to see go in the program -- can you make the changes that you have now recommended without a staff change at the University of Colorado?
JEAN MCALLISTER, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE COMMISSION MEMBER: Well, I think that the commissioners yesterday were very clear as a group that our feeling is that some leadership changes are probably necessary. And we made a very conscious decision now to identify individuals, because one of the issues that is core to changing the culture that allows this kind of thing to go on is that the university needs to take responsibility for oversight and management and clearly be in charge of the athletic program.
And consequently, in order to really, fundamentally achieve accountability, it is the university's leadership that needs to make decisions if people need to go and who needs to go.
O'BRIEN: You presented your report to the regents. And after that presentation, the regents went into a meeting and Regent Rutledge asked the parents of the student athletes at one point to stand up. And he said to them, "No one has suffered more than you."
What was your reaction, Ms. McAllister, when you heard that comment?
MCALLISTER: I was both angered and distressed and saddened. I believe that fundamentally it is wrong to say that one group of people has suffered more and I think it was highly insensitive to the people who have been victimized throughout the years at the university. And...
O'BRIEN: But let me jump in there and ask this question of Ms. Lamm. What you've said is now you've made these recommendations and that it's really up to the university to come forward with the changes and examine some of these leadership positions.
When you hear comments like that, do you actually have confidence, Ms. Lamm, that that's what they're going to do, make some big changes and change the culture, as well?
LAMM: I think that's a very good question. I think that is -- it was a troubling aspect and I think there are a lot of people that believe that sometimes -- a number of people regarding the university have been -- have shown a lack of leadership at times. And sometimes they have been sort of absent in terms of concerns. And we found that in different situations. And I think that really is at the top and goes down through a lot of people. And that was an example, perhaps, of that yesterday.
But I still am confident that they will make a lot of changes.
O'BRIEN: Peggy Lamm and Jean McAllister of the independent commission that examined the University of Colorado's athletic recruitment program.
Thanks for being with us, ladies.
I appreciate it.
LAMM: Thank you.
MCALLISTER: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: In a moment here, Soledad, Senator John Kerry looks for momentum on the campaign trial. Who else may be blocking his run for the White House in '04?
O'BRIEN: Also this morning, going carb crazy -- are you really getting lower carbs for all those big bucks? That story is ahead.
HEMMER: Also, say hello this morning to a 12-year-old boy, alive today after fighting off an alligator. He lives to tell the tale and he will share it with us, in a moment, when we continue, on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Here is a story only from the State of Florida. A 12- year-old boy surviving an alligator attack. Malcolm Locke was swimming in a lake near Daytona Beach yesterday when the gator dragged him underwater. We are told he fought off the animal and lived to talk about it.
From Deltona, Florida, Malcolm Locke and his mother Misty Warren are our guests now to share their story.
Good morning to both of you.
And I know you have that bandage wrapped around your head. Before I get to the injuries, Malcolm, take us back to what happened. You jump into the lake and then what? When do you see that gator?
LOCKE: I saw it when I was just underwater. I just saw it. It came at me with its mouth open sideways.
HEMMER: How big was that, Malcolm, that gator?
LOCKE: Seven foot four.
HEMMER: Wow!
So, how much do you remember? The gator grabs you, gets a hold of your head and some other parts of your body?
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Where did he get you, Malcolm?
MISTY WARREN, MALCOLM'S MOTHER: He didn't hear you.
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes.
Did you know alligators were in that lake?
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes.
WARREN: You've got to talk more.
HEMMER: How are you feeling today? Go ahead, Malcolm. You can just talk straight to me. It's all right. Just like we're having a conversation. Go ahead and relax and tell me your story, OK, because we really want to hear it.
How are your injuries? How were you affected?
LOCKE: I'm feeling OK right now. But at the hospital I was screaming real bad because they were just putting staples in my head and everything.
HEMMER: Wow.
How many staples did you get, Malcolm?
LOCKE: Six staples in my head, five stitches in my ear. And I got a -- I've got to go see a plastic surgeon today.
HEMMER: Oh, wow.
Listen, the best of luck today.
How much do you remember? I'm told you punched the alligator. What do you remember and how did you react?
LOCKE: Yes, I punched him.
HEMMER: Go ahead.
LOCKE: It was a reaction.
HEMMER: Yes.
Do you remember where you hit the gator?
LOCKE: Yes. But I had my eyes closed.
HEMMER: Yes.
Hey, Ms. Warren?
WARREN: Yes, sir?
HEMMER: Tell us how your son is doing so far. He seems a bit shaken up still, I think.
WARREN: Yes, sir. He's doing very well. He's on some antibiotics and some pain medication. He's got to go see a plastic surgeon, like he said. He's got to be kept a close eye on for infections. But his spirits are very good still.
HEMMER: I understand he was painting the roof on your mother's house, his grandma.
Is that right? And he got overheated and...
WARREN: Yes, sir, it is.
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: ... decided to cool off? Is that what happened?
WARREN: Yes, sir.
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes.
Well, listen, good luck to you and take good care of him, OK?
WARREN: I will.
HEMMER: Misty Warren, thanks for your time.
And, Malcolm, good luck to you, OK, buddy?
LOCKE: OK.
HEMMER: It's going to be all right, I promise you, OK?
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Thanks, pal -- Soledad.
WARREN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: One man dead, four others hurt after two freight trains slammed head on in north Texas. Look at this devastation at the wreck site yesterday in Gunter, about 50 miles north of Dallas. Twenty cars derailed. That major rail line is closed this morning. Federal investigators are now combing the site for evidence.
Still to come this morning, more violence in Gaza, but neither side backing down.
Also, First Lady Laura Bush shows that she's tough and pretty darned funny at the same time.
That's ahead, as AMERICAN MORNING continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: I just want to thank you guys for your support today.
CAFFERTY: It's our pleasure.
O'BRIEN: It's all right.
CAFFERTY: You're doing a great job, Bill, no question about it.
O'BRIEN: You all right?
HEMMER: I'm fine.
O'BRIEN: All right, then let's move on.
CAFFERTY: If I were Katie Couric, I'd be scared to death.
HEMMER: And she should be.
CAFFERTY: And she should be.
O'BRIEN: Ah, you're making my stomach hurt.
HEMMER: I'm fine.
CAFFERTY: On to other things. There was a moment, you know what I mean? It makes getting up at four in the morning worth it.
HEMMER: That's right.
CAFFERTY: John Kerry met with Ralph Nader yesterday. Nader is -- could be a problem to John Kerry. A lot of people believe he cost Al Gore the election in 2000 and if he gets four or five percent of the vote, like he did last time, in a few of those battleground states, the same thing could happen again. Nader didn't offer to withdraw. The senator didn't ask him to. They say they're going to continue to talk. But it could be a problem.
And the question is what should John Kerry do about Ralph Nader?
Sheldon in Carol Stream, Illinois: "I wouldn't have met with Nader at all. In fact, I would have made it publicly clear that the only reason I would ever meet with him is to accept his endorsement and to hear from him personally that he's dropping out of the race."
Joel in Coleyville, Texas: "Offer him a job in exchange for withdrawing from the race and endorsing Kerry. He could be the secretary in charge of antagonizing the oil and pharmaceutical companies."
Reid in Bend, Oregon: "Kerry and Nader are irrelevant to me. I'm voting for George W. Bush for one reason -- the future student. I remember well how frustrating it was to memorize the presidents. A hundred years from now, students around the world will thank us for only having to memorize Bush, Clinton, Bush for this part of history. I only hope for their sake Hillary runs next time and wins. Then it would be Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton."
Barry in Corinth, Texas: "Kerry should throw Ralph Nader over the fence, but hang onto the ribbons."
And John writes: "Jack, relax. People our age shouldn't get so excited. Nader will be Kerry's pick for vice president and we'll all be sorry."
Am@cnn.com.
HEMMER: It'll make your belly hurt.
O'BRIEN: Secretary for antagonizing.
CAFFERTY: The pharmaceutical...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: That's not a cabinet position, darn it.
Did you see -- this is, what was this, Leno last night? This was actually kind of funny. First Lady Laura Bush visited "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno" and they shared a couple of laughs, until she gave him this look and then sort of put him in his place. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO," COURTESY NBC)
JAY LENO, HOST: Now, do you work out?
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I work out. I have a trainer...
LENO: Oh.
L. BUSH: ... who comes two or three days a week, depending on how many days I'm at home.
LENO: You do weights?
L. BUSH: I do weights, lift weights. I'm getting quite buff.
LENO: Wow. Wow. Do you think -- you think in a fight you could take Teresa Heinz? I don't know.
L. BUSH: Very funny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: At one point he asked her about what she did in Vegas and she said, "What goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas," which is so...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: She's very funny. I mean she's actually very, very funny.
CAFFERTY: Yes, she's cute.
O'BRIEN: That was fun to watch.
CAFFERTY: Maybe she should run.
O'BRIEN: Hmmm.
CAFFERTY: Hmmm.
HEMMER: In a moment here, it might be the most dangerous job in Iraq today. We'll talk to a former U.S. cop who's in Baghdad training Iraqis to maintain security. The good and the bad going forward, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired May 20, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Despite world condemnation, Israeli forces on the offensive today again in Gaza. More Palestinians are dead.
Dozens of freight cars and tons of cargo thrown across the Texas countryside after two trains barrel into each other.
Also, the gator attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALCOLM LOCKE, ATTACKED BY ALLIGATOR: He bit me on the head and took a chunk out of my ear. And I punched him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: He is a 12-year-old boy with a wild story to tell, and he will, with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Welcome, everybody.
Other stories that we're following this morning, we're going to talk to former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. He testified yesterday before the 9/11 Commission. He was heckled by members of the audience, some members. He was praised by Commission members. This morning we talk to him about some of the more contentious things that were said.
HEMMER: Also this hour, the co-chairwoman and the commissioner of the panel that's issuing a highly critical report on the recruiting practices at the University of Colorado. What they found in that investigation and what they expect to happen now that they have delivered their findings in the future for that program. Questions again in Colorado.
O'BRIEN: And questions from Jack Cafferty in the Cafferty File -- good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. We're all being so nice, hoping to get a new airline -- a free airline ticket. I thought it was interesting that the day before former Mayor Giuliani testified those courageous Commission members were all busy talking about New York's response to 9/11 wasn't worthy of the Boy Scouts. But when the former mayor of the city sat down yesterday, none of them had anything to say to him. He was absolutely brilliant, and without even doing it consciously, backed that entire panel down and put them back in their seats where they belonged. Buffo, Mr. Giuliani.
Coming up in the Cafferty File, things people say. We didn't get to it yesterday. We're going to do it today.
HEMMER: Excellent. And looking forward to it.
Thank you, Jack.
Top stories here now, 8:02 in New York.
Despite an international outcry, Israel is moving ahead with intense operations in Gaza. At least seven Palestinians killed in overnight violence there. This after Israeli strikes left at least 10 Palestinians dead during a protest in Rafah yesterday. That's in the southern part of Gaza. Israeli officials say the helicopter fired only flares into the refugee camp.
Meanwhile, at the White House, the president, meeting with his cabinet yesterday, continued to urge restraint in the region.
The Pentagon denying reports that a U.S. air strike in western Iraq targeted a wedding party near the border with Syria. Funerals are being held today as Iraqi officials say more than 40 people, including small children, died in the attack yesterday. U.S. military officials say the target was a suspected foreign fighters safe house. An investigation now under way.
New photos have surfaced in the Iraq prison abuse scandal that appear to show American soldiers smiling over a dead body. In one, Specialist Charles Graner of the 372nd Military Police is seen smiling and giving the thumbs up. In the other, Specialist Sabrina Harmon, a member of the same unit, in a similar pose. While the pictures have not yet been authenticated, the soldiers who appear in them are among those who already face charges in that scandal in Iraq.
Some senior citizens in Minnesota suing nine of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies because, they say, they want cheaper medicine. The lawsuit claims the companies conspired to stop Americans from getting cheaper prescription drugs from Canada. The nine drug companies deny any wrongdoing.
Also from Ohio, the southeastern part of the state, hundreds were evacuated after severe flooding. Storms in the southeast portion caused a creek to overflow. Some evacuated by boat; others left on fire trucks. The National Weather Service says more than two inches of rain fell in about a 24 hour period. And the aerials are just striking, to see that amount of water and the folks trying to work their way through.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: A surprising military operation in Baghdad to report this morning. U.S. forces, Iraqi police raiding the home of Ahmad Chalabi. Chalabi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, also heads the Iraqi National Congress. The INC compound was also searched.
Harris Whitbeck is live for us this morning in Baghdad with details on this -- Harris, good morning.
HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.
As you said, U.S. soldiers and members of the Iraqi national police force raided the headquarters of the Iraqi National Congress, which is headed by Ahmad Chalabi, who is also a member of the Iraqi Governing Council.
Now, an INC spokesman on the ground there said that computers and personal papers were taken with no warrants. He called that an illegal act and he called it a theft. And he said that all this stems from a political dispute with the CPA in which Chalabi has said that he wants more independence after the handover on June 30.
He said that Chalabi has raised the question of direct Iraqi control of the army, the security services and financial resources. And he said that that call for independence sparked this action by U.S. soldiers and Iraqi national police.
Now, the CPA here has not commented on what occurred this afternoon. We are expecting the daily briefing from the CPA and that issue will surely be raised. And, also, we're expecting to hear from Dr. Chalabi himself. He has called a press conference for about an hour's time from now.
So, again, a lot to talk about. A lot more that we will be hearing about -- on this controversial raid. As you know, Dr. Chalabi himself has sparked some controversy in the States. His political group, the INC, had been receiving more than $300,000 a month in funding from the United States. A few weeks ago, the Pentagon announced it was cutting off that funding because basically after June 30, they will not be funding any political organizations in Iraq -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: It will be interesting to hear what he has to say.
Harris Whitbeck for us this morning in Baghdad.
Harris, thanks -- Bill.
HEMMER: The man "Time" magazine named its Person of the Year for his heroic handling of the 9/11 attacks now finding himself defending New York City's preparedness in its response to the attacks. Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani testifying before the Commission yesterday and heckled by some family members of the victims inside there. He strongly defended the emergency response of police and firefighters on that tragic day.
With us live in Phoenix, Arizona today, Rudy Giuliani is now our guest.
Good morning to you.
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: Good morning.
HEMMER: And welcome back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
GIULIANI: Sure.
HEMMER: I want to use part of your words yesterday. In one of your opening statements you say, "Our enemy is not each other, but the terrorists who attacked us."
Do you believe the Commission has lost sight of that?
GIULIANI: No, I don't think the Commission as a whole has. I think some members have in the comments that they made. I mean there's no question what they're doing is very, very legitimate. You should be looking at, you know, what was done right, what was done wrong and then how can you improve on that in the future.
But it should be done in the context of the people who responded to this were responding to the worst attack in the history of this country and overall they saved a tremendous number of lives. When I was first told the number of possible casualties at the World Trade Center, within a half hour of the building coming down, I was told there could be as many as 12,000 to 15,000 people. And I know that the firefighters and the police officers, by the way in which they carried out this rescue mission, saved somewhere between 9,000 and 12,000 lives.
They weren't entirely successful. There were mistakes that were made. Hopefully in the future you can cure those mistakes. It will never be done perfectly...
HEMMER: If I could carry that...
GIULIANI: But they carried out a...
HEMMER: Right. But back to the premise, though. The hecklers who showed up yesterday to show their displeasure, they blame a lack of leadership, in part. They say they're not getting the answers they want on behalf of, perhaps, you and others that the Commission has carried out over the past several months.
Do you understand their anger? Do they have a right to be that way?
GIULIANI: Sure. They have -- first of all, you can't tell someone how to grieve. They have an absolute right to be that way. They're going through a horrible experience, a difficult experience, and they need a place to place their blame. It is very understandable.
It does not reflect the reaction of most people, however, not -- and in a -- all those questions that they wanted asked were asked. What about the radios? I mean the radios, some worked, some didn't work. The reason, the overriding reason why the radios failed on that day is the same reason why sometimes your cell phone goes out when too many people are trying to get into the same bandwidth.
The solution has to be creating a bandwidth that is dedicated solely to emergency services so that if there is an emergency and I arrive there and I'm the mayor and the fire commissioner arrives there and the police commissioner and everyone else, we can communicate on a dedicated bandwidth and not be interfered with by other communications.
And then you have to make a choice of how many communications you can have in that bandwidth.
HEMMER: And we all sat here...
GIULIANI: That should be done.
HEMMER: And we all sat here yesterday and listened to that riveting narrative that you provided yesterday just about this time, in fact.
Based on what you have learned from the Commission and how you want to make sure the city you love so much is protected in the event of a future attack, have steps been taken that are satisfactory at this point to make sure next time...
GIULIANI: Yes, they...
HEMMER: ... if you can save lives, lives are saved?
GIULIANI: Well, you know, with the understanding that a lot of lives were saved the last time, probably more lives than anyone really could expect, given the level of knowledge and information that people had. Yes, next time the effort will be even better.
Michael Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly have made significant improvements since September 11, 2001.
But, you know, if you deal with something unexpected and catastrophic, even next time something will go wrong.
HEMMER: We want to take...
GIULIANI: And it may be something different.
HEMMER: We want to take...
GIULIANI: And then we'll have to improve that. HEMMER: We want to -- I apologize for the interruption here. I'm sorry about that. John Lehman, a Commission member, on Tuesday said this before the panel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I think that the command and control and communications of this city's public service is a scandal. It's not worthy of the Boy Scouts, let alone this great city.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: How do you respond to that, the Boy Scouts reference?
GIULIANI: I mean those comments are totally inappropriate and are part of the reason why, you know, a lot of people were very, very upset about the Commission. It isn't the entire Commission. It's his comments. But that isn't the way to approach this. I mean to call people names and the people that, the command and control system that he's describing as Boy Scouts saved 9,000 to 12,000 lives; saved virtually everyone they were capable of saving. And many people lost their lives in the process of doing that. And given the level of technology at the time in which they did it and the amount of notice they had, their effort was truly heroic.
Did they make mistakes? Were there things that broke down? Of course there were. And they should, those things should be focused on as lessons learned, but now the this finger pointing and name calling. That isn't appropriate.
Everyone he's talking about did their best to save lives under extraordinary conditions.
HEMMER: Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor...
GIULIANI: And that's the atmosphere in which this should be looked at.
HEMMER: Former mayor here in New York City, in Phoenix, Arizona.
Thank you.
Good to talk to you again.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
HEMMER: Soledad.
O'BRIEN: The independent commission that had been investigating the University of Colorado football program has been disbanded. Its 50-page report, which said that sex and alcohol were used to lure top recruits to the Boulder school, was delivered to C.U.'s Board of Regents yesterday. That report blames the school's top administrators for failing to monitor the football program.
Joining us this morning from Denver, commissioners Peggy Lamm and Jean McAllister.
Nice to see you.
Thanks for being with us.
Ms. Lamm, let's begin with you.
As we mentioned, the report concluded that sex and alcohol, I'm quoting here, "had long been staples of recruiting activities at the university."
Well, obviously, you're talking about a lack of oversight.
Who do you think should lose their jobs in the wake of this?
PEGGY LAMM, CO-CHAIRWOMAN, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE COMMISSION: Boy, unfortunately that's not my concern in terms of who should lose their job. And, by the way, I think this is a problem that is not just relegated to the University of Colorado. I think this is a concern that we have learned occurs across the country. Certainly the University of Colorado has not been running a perfect program, by any stretch. But there are very great concerns across the country in terms of this same question, in terms of recruiting and what -- the things that go on in that regard.
O'BRIEN: Ms. McAllister, here are some of the conclusions of the report. I'm just going to read through some of them. "Integrate the athletic department with the university administration; require disciplinary matters be put in writing; require coaches to maintain records for conduct violations; update university sexual assault policies; maintain anonymous tip line."
Can you make the changes -- and we heard Ms. Lamm sort of avoid saying -- avoid naming any names of who she'd like to see go in the program -- can you make the changes that you have now recommended without a staff change at the University of Colorado?
JEAN MCALLISTER, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE COMMISSION MEMBER: Well, I think that the commissioners yesterday were very clear as a group that our feeling is that some leadership changes are probably necessary. And we made a very conscious decision now to identify individuals, because one of the issues that is core to changing the culture that allows this kind of thing to go on is that the university needs to take responsibility for oversight and management and clearly be in charge of the athletic program.
And consequently, in order to really, fundamentally achieve accountability, it is the university's leadership that needs to make decisions if people need to go and who needs to go.
O'BRIEN: You presented your report to the regents. And after that presentation, the regents went into a meeting and Regent Rutledge asked the parents of the student athletes at one point to stand up. And he said to them, "No one has suffered more than you."
What was your reaction, Ms. McAllister, when you heard that comment?
MCALLISTER: I was both angered and distressed and saddened. I believe that fundamentally it is wrong to say that one group of people has suffered more and I think it was highly insensitive to the people who have been victimized throughout the years at the university. And...
O'BRIEN: But let me jump in there and ask this question of Ms. Lamm. What you've said is now you've made these recommendations and that it's really up to the university to come forward with the changes and examine some of these leadership positions.
When you hear comments like that, do you actually have confidence, Ms. Lamm, that that's what they're going to do, make some big changes and change the culture, as well?
LAMM: I think that's a very good question. I think that is -- it was a troubling aspect and I think there are a lot of people that believe that sometimes -- a number of people regarding the university have been -- have shown a lack of leadership at times. And sometimes they have been sort of absent in terms of concerns. And we found that in different situations. And I think that really is at the top and goes down through a lot of people. And that was an example, perhaps, of that yesterday.
But I still am confident that they will make a lot of changes.
O'BRIEN: Peggy Lamm and Jean McAllister of the independent commission that examined the University of Colorado's athletic recruitment program.
Thanks for being with us, ladies.
I appreciate it.
LAMM: Thank you.
MCALLISTER: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: In a moment here, Soledad, Senator John Kerry looks for momentum on the campaign trial. Who else may be blocking his run for the White House in '04?
O'BRIEN: Also this morning, going carb crazy -- are you really getting lower carbs for all those big bucks? That story is ahead.
HEMMER: Also, say hello this morning to a 12-year-old boy, alive today after fighting off an alligator. He lives to tell the tale and he will share it with us, in a moment, when we continue, on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Here is a story only from the State of Florida. A 12- year-old boy surviving an alligator attack. Malcolm Locke was swimming in a lake near Daytona Beach yesterday when the gator dragged him underwater. We are told he fought off the animal and lived to talk about it.
From Deltona, Florida, Malcolm Locke and his mother Misty Warren are our guests now to share their story.
Good morning to both of you.
And I know you have that bandage wrapped around your head. Before I get to the injuries, Malcolm, take us back to what happened. You jump into the lake and then what? When do you see that gator?
LOCKE: I saw it when I was just underwater. I just saw it. It came at me with its mouth open sideways.
HEMMER: How big was that, Malcolm, that gator?
LOCKE: Seven foot four.
HEMMER: Wow!
So, how much do you remember? The gator grabs you, gets a hold of your head and some other parts of your body?
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Where did he get you, Malcolm?
MISTY WARREN, MALCOLM'S MOTHER: He didn't hear you.
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes.
Did you know alligators were in that lake?
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes.
WARREN: You've got to talk more.
HEMMER: How are you feeling today? Go ahead, Malcolm. You can just talk straight to me. It's all right. Just like we're having a conversation. Go ahead and relax and tell me your story, OK, because we really want to hear it.
How are your injuries? How were you affected?
LOCKE: I'm feeling OK right now. But at the hospital I was screaming real bad because they were just putting staples in my head and everything.
HEMMER: Wow.
How many staples did you get, Malcolm?
LOCKE: Six staples in my head, five stitches in my ear. And I got a -- I've got to go see a plastic surgeon today.
HEMMER: Oh, wow.
Listen, the best of luck today.
How much do you remember? I'm told you punched the alligator. What do you remember and how did you react?
LOCKE: Yes, I punched him.
HEMMER: Go ahead.
LOCKE: It was a reaction.
HEMMER: Yes.
Do you remember where you hit the gator?
LOCKE: Yes. But I had my eyes closed.
HEMMER: Yes.
Hey, Ms. Warren?
WARREN: Yes, sir?
HEMMER: Tell us how your son is doing so far. He seems a bit shaken up still, I think.
WARREN: Yes, sir. He's doing very well. He's on some antibiotics and some pain medication. He's got to go see a plastic surgeon, like he said. He's got to be kept a close eye on for infections. But his spirits are very good still.
HEMMER: I understand he was painting the roof on your mother's house, his grandma.
Is that right? And he got overheated and...
WARREN: Yes, sir, it is.
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: ... decided to cool off? Is that what happened?
WARREN: Yes, sir.
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Yes.
Well, listen, good luck to you and take good care of him, OK?
WARREN: I will.
HEMMER: Misty Warren, thanks for your time.
And, Malcolm, good luck to you, OK, buddy?
LOCKE: OK.
HEMMER: It's going to be all right, I promise you, OK?
LOCKE: Yes.
HEMMER: Thanks, pal -- Soledad.
WARREN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: One man dead, four others hurt after two freight trains slammed head on in north Texas. Look at this devastation at the wreck site yesterday in Gunter, about 50 miles north of Dallas. Twenty cars derailed. That major rail line is closed this morning. Federal investigators are now combing the site for evidence.
Still to come this morning, more violence in Gaza, but neither side backing down.
Also, First Lady Laura Bush shows that she's tough and pretty darned funny at the same time.
That's ahead, as AMERICAN MORNING continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: I just want to thank you guys for your support today.
CAFFERTY: It's our pleasure.
O'BRIEN: It's all right.
CAFFERTY: You're doing a great job, Bill, no question about it.
O'BRIEN: You all right?
HEMMER: I'm fine.
O'BRIEN: All right, then let's move on.
CAFFERTY: If I were Katie Couric, I'd be scared to death.
HEMMER: And she should be.
CAFFERTY: And she should be.
O'BRIEN: Ah, you're making my stomach hurt.
HEMMER: I'm fine.
CAFFERTY: On to other things. There was a moment, you know what I mean? It makes getting up at four in the morning worth it.
HEMMER: That's right.
CAFFERTY: John Kerry met with Ralph Nader yesterday. Nader is -- could be a problem to John Kerry. A lot of people believe he cost Al Gore the election in 2000 and if he gets four or five percent of the vote, like he did last time, in a few of those battleground states, the same thing could happen again. Nader didn't offer to withdraw. The senator didn't ask him to. They say they're going to continue to talk. But it could be a problem.
And the question is what should John Kerry do about Ralph Nader?
Sheldon in Carol Stream, Illinois: "I wouldn't have met with Nader at all. In fact, I would have made it publicly clear that the only reason I would ever meet with him is to accept his endorsement and to hear from him personally that he's dropping out of the race."
Joel in Coleyville, Texas: "Offer him a job in exchange for withdrawing from the race and endorsing Kerry. He could be the secretary in charge of antagonizing the oil and pharmaceutical companies."
Reid in Bend, Oregon: "Kerry and Nader are irrelevant to me. I'm voting for George W. Bush for one reason -- the future student. I remember well how frustrating it was to memorize the presidents. A hundred years from now, students around the world will thank us for only having to memorize Bush, Clinton, Bush for this part of history. I only hope for their sake Hillary runs next time and wins. Then it would be Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton."
Barry in Corinth, Texas: "Kerry should throw Ralph Nader over the fence, but hang onto the ribbons."
And John writes: "Jack, relax. People our age shouldn't get so excited. Nader will be Kerry's pick for vice president and we'll all be sorry."
Am@cnn.com.
HEMMER: It'll make your belly hurt.
O'BRIEN: Secretary for antagonizing.
CAFFERTY: The pharmaceutical...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: That's not a cabinet position, darn it.
Did you see -- this is, what was this, Leno last night? This was actually kind of funny. First Lady Laura Bush visited "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno" and they shared a couple of laughs, until she gave him this look and then sort of put him in his place. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO," COURTESY NBC)
JAY LENO, HOST: Now, do you work out?
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I work out. I have a trainer...
LENO: Oh.
L. BUSH: ... who comes two or three days a week, depending on how many days I'm at home.
LENO: You do weights?
L. BUSH: I do weights, lift weights. I'm getting quite buff.
LENO: Wow. Wow. Do you think -- you think in a fight you could take Teresa Heinz? I don't know.
L. BUSH: Very funny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: At one point he asked her about what she did in Vegas and she said, "What goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas," which is so...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: She's very funny. I mean she's actually very, very funny.
CAFFERTY: Yes, she's cute.
O'BRIEN: That was fun to watch.
CAFFERTY: Maybe she should run.
O'BRIEN: Hmmm.
CAFFERTY: Hmmm.
HEMMER: In a moment here, it might be the most dangerous job in Iraq today. We'll talk to a former U.S. cop who's in Baghdad training Iraqis to maintain security. The good and the bad going forward, in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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