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American Morning
Saddam Appears in Court, Calls Bush Criminal
Aired July 01, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Welcome back, everybody.
The main story, of course, that we're following this morning is the court appearance of Saddam Hussein. It ended just about an hour ago and we are told by CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, who was in the courtroom, had a chance to be among the very few who got to witness the proceedings, that Saddam Hussein refused to sign court papers and he also defended the invasion of Kuwait.
She described him as combative at times. He referred to himself a couple of times as the president of Iraq.
In fact, let's check right back in with Christiane, who can update us on exactly what happened this morning, starting at just about an hour ago, when the court proceedings began against Saddam Hussein. Christiane, good morning again.
Give us a sense of the tone in the courtroom as Saddam Hussein walked in.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, everybody, as you can imagine, was just waiting for this moment. It was about 10 minutes and we kept being given false starts. And everybody was on the edge of their seats waiting to see what he would look like, how he would react.
He came in, not handcuffed, into the actual courtroom. Those had been taken off him. He was tall. He was surrounded by two big, big burly Iraqi correctional service guards,. He was wearing a gray jacket, a suit jacket; a white, very, very starched white shirt; a belt; trousers, brown trousers; very highly polished black shoes; brown socks. And he had his beard, though not as shaggy as you can remember from those pictures in December when he was caught. It was very neatly trimmed, but it was a beard, not just his moustache.
He had bags under his eyes. His face looked very dark and have looked very, very subdued, very lost, very much like what am I doing here? And he came in and he was sort of -- sort helped into the chair by the guards. And he sat down and he sort of leaned his arm against the chair and he had his hand in his face and sometimes his hand over his face and sometimes looking down.
And he started to have this interaction with the judge. This was the forum whereby not only was he going to be read his rights and asked whether he wanted counsel, whether he could afford counsel, but this was also an occasion for him to ask questions. He has not been allowed to ask questions, for instance, yesterday, when they took legal custody of him. So this was his opportunity to ask what was going on.
And, as I say, we're still waiting for the extensive and minute by minute translation, because it all took place in Arabic. No simultaneous translation. But we had some Arabic speakers sitting, certainly sitting next to me, our CNN producer and also a pool translator was there, as well.
Saddam Hussein's voice, I was surprised, was quite weak. It was quite hoarse. Even when he tried to raise his voice and jabbing his finger at the judge and asking the judge under whose jurisdiction do you presume to be here? Who are you? What is the legal basis for this court?
He was gesticulating and gesturing with his hands. The guards in there and the other Iraqis in there, the court reporters, some of the members of the new government, some of their assistants, they were all riveted, listening very, very intently to what he was saying; for the first time seeing Saddam in that kind of position after so many decades of being terrorized by him and by his regime.
Each time that Saddam tried to interrupt, he would say, "Please," and he would use this gesture of interrupting the judge and, "Please can I?" And then he would go on to ask whatever he wanted to ask.
At one point he looked around to us and he smiled and he said, "This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush," he said, "to win his policies, to promote his campaign." But he kept saying Bush was the criminal, not him.
He was attacking the Kuwaitis again when he was accused of invading Kuwait. He said, "How could you, as an Iraqi," he said to the judge, "tell me that we invaded Kuwait? This was our right. I did this for the Iraqi people. They were trying to lower the price of oil to turn our people into paupers and to make Iraqi women prostitutes for just $10."
So these were some of the things that he was saying. He, at one point he took out a piece of paper, a yellow paper like this, from his jacket, from inside his jacket. He had a pen and he was writing while the judge was talking to the court reporters.
After the judge had finished talking to the court reporters, he announced, "Let it be known to this court that Saddam Hussein has acknowledged his name, his age, who he is and that he understands what is going on."
The court reporters, two of them, two Iraqis, were doing all the note taking by longhand. There were no machines, none of that. It was all by longhand.
And basically that's it. He was presented with seven charges under this initial arrest warrant. These will not be the final formal indictment, but it will probably form the basis of that. Basically what's happened is that he's been arraigned on suspicion of having committed these crimes and now the investigative procedure starts. And when they've got all the investigation, they've sifted through all the evidence, then the formal indictment is laid.
O'BRIEN: Christiane Amanpour for us this morning.
Christiane, a fascinating description.
We're going to ask you to stick around.
Of course, as you mentioned, we are waiting for the videotape of that proceeding. So it should be coming to us fairly shortly. And as soon as we get that, we'll turn around and show it to you.
We want to check back in with Hassan Mneimneh.
He is with the Iraq Memory Foundation, which has gathered truly hundreds of thousands of pages of evidence of Saddam's brutal regime that they plan to use at his trial.
He's in Washington, D.C. this morning.
Good morning to you once again.
What did you make of Christiane's description of Saddam Hussein? She described him as both defiant and a little bit confused and friendly at times -- a seemingly contradictory description, certainly.
What did it seem like to you?
HASSAN MNEIMNEH, IRAQ MEMORY FOUNDATION: I think her reports, in a certain sense, provides us with a dry run of what will come next. Four lines of defense were presented by Saddam and these four lines are likely to be presented later on in the course of the actual trial.
The first one is the challenge to the jurisdiction, challenge to the legitimacy of the court. Then a challenge to the procedure -- Saddam refusing to sign, Saddam refusing to acknowledge that the procedure is correct. And then a challenge to the facts, denying that facts presented to him are true. Halabja, meaning he considers that -- meaning he's not aware of Halabja or he heard about it in the news. And the fourth line of defense is the defiant assertion that he has done nothing wrong and the criminals are elsewhere, whether it's Bush or whether it's the Kuwaitis, etc.
So we're likely to see these four lines of defense repeated again and again. And I think it's ultimately important in order to address them to present the facts in a way that takes it beyond the person of Saddam and focusing on the crimes that he has -- he and his regime have actually committed.
O'BRIEN: It was interesting to hear from both Christiane and Anderson, as well, the description of Iraqis and their reaction, not only to the court proceedings, but certainly the guards who are bringing Saddam Hussein in and out. Christiane said they gave thumbs up and said it's a great day or something like that in Arabic.
What do you think the reaction is now that people are starting to hear what went on inside that courtroom today?
MNEIMNEH: Well, it can be the beginning of demonstrating, actually demonstrating that the rule of law is not just a slogan, but is something that the new Iraq is going to witness, it's going to live, it's going to integrate as part of its system of governance. And this is why ultimately it is extremely important to have these proceedings as transparent as possible. I hope that ultimately the audio will be released. I hope that everything that happens in that court will be scrutinized by everyone in order not to allow for the inevitable attempts at portraying what is happening as being nothing but a sham, nothing but theater, as Saddam has already stated.
So it's extremely important for us in order to move beyond that to be able to follow what's happened and to face him with the facts, to face him with the details about the various crimes. I mean the preliminary charges are actually just a sampling of what I'm hoping that the Iraqi public, the Arab public at large, the word community in its totality, will be able to look carefully at and consider in what comes next.
O'BRIEN: But at the same time, you have said that the charges -- that the evidence against Saddam Hussein, that Saddam Hussein was very careful to always distance himself through several layers so that there may not be a direct link to him in the hundreds of thousands of pages of evidence that you have at your disposal at this time.
Potentially, doesn't that mean the case could be weak against Saddam Hussein?
MNEIMNEH: Not at all. I mean, after all, part of what he has said is almost I mean incredible. I mean to say that he has heard about Halabja in the news reported, this is, again, we're not talking here about a laid back manager who assigns, who delegates and who lets his subordinates take charge. We're talking, indeed, about a dictator, a totalitarian dictator who has -- who is ultimately responsible and directly responsible for every action that is done on his behalf. And no one, I mean just looking through all the documents that we have, we realize that even at the level of his secret service, at the level of the various institutions of control that he has created, no one dared take any initiative or any action without ultimately direct approval.
This is someone who scrutinized the paper on a daily basis and commented on the cartoons in the paper, who comments on the poems. So we're not talking here about someone who's distant from what has happened.
Ultimately, the responsibility of leadership is going to assert the fact, is going to prove the fact that he is responsible for all those crimes. But I think the case needs to be made carefully, systematically and over a long period of time, because ultimately this is not about Saddam Hussein. This is about a whole regime of oppression and this is about trying to inject new elements into the political culture of Iraq, which is longing for it, in a certain sense.
So we need to be extremely careful about how the proceedings end up happening down the line and we need to be critical of the court to the extent, meaning pushing it towards transparency and insisting on the whole proceedings following, meaning the ultimate standard. Yes, let's hold this court, which ultimately is going to give us something new in Iraq and far beyond, let's hold it to the highest standards possible.
O'BRIEN: Hassan Mneimneh of the Iraqi Memory Foundation, joining us this morning from Washington.
Thanks for your time.
MNEIMNEH: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Of course, we're going to ask you, as well, to stick around this morning as these court proceedings continue.
Thanks for being with us -- Bill.
HEMMER: And again the big story that we are awaiting now out of Iraq is this videotape, said to be about 30 minutes in length. All the proceedings conducted in Arabic. We're waiting on a translation. That will happen some time. We will see these images at some point this morning. We just cannot nail it down right now. So we ask you to be patient with us.
Seven preliminary charges read against Saddam Hussein, including the invasion of Kuwait back in August of 1990; the suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprisings in 1991. And for the Shiite population, a very sensitive issue even today. The Shiites say in southern Iraq they were encouraged by the U.S. government and encouraged by the CIA to be defiant against Saddam Hussein and many hundreds, maybe more, paid with their lives for that uprising in 1991.
Political killings, religious killings and the gassing of the Kurds going back to the town of Halabja, northeastern Iraq, in the year 1988.
Frank Rubino is still with us from Miami, Florida.
He defended Manuel Noriega.
Back with us to talk about these matters.
Good morning again, Frank.
FRANK RUBINO, DEFENDED MANUEL NORIEGA: Good morning.
HEMMER: You heard our last analyst say it's a dry run.
Is this what we can expect from Saddam Hussein down the road -- defiant in the face of a judge?
RUBINO: Defiant and, in fact, from what I saw, belligerent. And I think we're going to see that characteristic throughout the entire trial. I wouldn't be surprised if he sort of, in some respects, pushes advice from his defense team away and almost takes charge himself of his defense.
HEMMER: Two quotes we got from Christiane Amanpour on the screen for our viewers in court today. "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq." He said that at least twice today. And, "This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush."
Examine this, Frank.
What does it tell you?
RUBINO: Well, I see theater on the other side. I see theater on the side of Saddam Hussein. What I think Saddam Hussein is going to try to do is not plead his case in court, but try to plead his cause. I think he's going to stand on the soap box and he's going to sing the opera.
HEMMER: The national security adviser in Iraq earlier in the week said this is the trial of the century.
Is that overstated in any way?
RUBINO: Well, it is because we have a world leader on trial for crimes occurring in his own nation, if you will. We've never really had anything of this drama before, and probably never will. So I think I'd go with that. Yes, it is.
HEMMER: Who testifies against him? And what do you believe about the concerns we're hearing about witnesses being very apprehensive, fearing for their own lives and their own security? And as I say that, our guidance tells us that when we see that videotape, the faces of all the participants in the proceedings inside the courtroom will essentially be blocked out, trying to give them protection, as well, for their own safety and security.
RUBINO: And I think that can easily be accomplished. They could have the person testify, if you will, behind a screen so the public couldn't see them. I'm not sure whether they're going to have cameras in the courtroom or not. But there are ways to protect the identity of witnesses. It's not necessary to know the name, address and phone number of a witness. It's his testimony, it's what he's seen and what he's observed that really counts.
HEMMER: All right, Frank...
RUBINO: So I think there are ways.
HEMMER: Frank, thanks.
Frank Rubino live in Miami, Florida again.
And we ask you to stand by. We will be coming back to you throughout the morning here.
Again, to our viewers, waiting on that videotape out of Baghdad. When we get it, first thing, we'll see it here -- now, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right, thanks, Bill.
Let's check back in with Christiane Amanpour.
It was interesting, Christiane, to listen to Frank Rubino a little earlier talking with Bill. He, of course, represented Manuel Noriega. And he said, to some degree, he thinks it's a done deal, that he's going to be convicted, Saddam Hussein, convicted and killed as a result of this. He's predicting it already.
Do you think that there is a sense in Iraq that that is, in fact, going to happen, that it's pretty much an open and closed case against him?
AMANPOUR: Well, look, I'm sure many people believe that it is an open and closed case. But in the legal procedure and in a proper, fair legal process, all the bases have to be covered. The proper crime base has to be built. We've been speaking to Department of Justice lawyers who are here helping with this Iraqi special tribunal and I know one of the lawyers from when he did his work in the Balkans, also for the war crimes tribunal; again, what we thought was an open and shut case.
It takes an enormous amount of hard evidence, not just the evidence, but the evidence to prove command responsibility so that either that Saddam directly gave the orders for whatever crime or that he knew those crimes were going on and he did nothing to stop them. Either of those are included in command responsibility.
And in order to be convicted of genocide, crimes against humanity, which are the most serious crimes in the entire legal process, it has to be a very careful indictment that is gathered and laid.
So this is going to take time. And then it will go to court and then it will be judged. There will be a panel of judges. It will be tried. Presumably he'll have a lawyer. At this point, we're told that he probably will not be allowed to defend himself. Again, they keep harking back to the Milosevic trial at the tribunal in the Hague, when Slobodan Milosevic was allowed -- this is the former dictator of Serbia -- was allowed to represent himself. And this has taken years, because he's used it as a political platform, as his own sort of political campaign.
This is not going to be allowed. Milosevic tried to call all sorts of important figures, officials from the American administration, the British administration. We're told that Saddam will not be able to call those kinds of figures.
So, but still, this is a process that has to not only go -- not only be seen to be going through the right legal channels and the legal methods, but it must go through the right legal methods. The Iraqis that I've talked to here who are involved in this Iraqi special tribunal say this is the example that we have to set. And even though many of our people want him dealt harshly with, we need to make this a fair trial. They say it's going to be an open trial.
O'BRIEN: Yes, much is at stake. No question about that.
Christiane Amanpour.
And Christiane, we should mention for everybody, we're waiting for this videotape to come in. And as soon as we get those pictures in, of course, we're going to bring them to you as they come in.
Let's go back to Bill.
HEMMER: All right, about 17 minutes past the hour, Soledad.
We're waiting on the videotape. And, again, there will be some sort of translation given.
As soon as we get the images, we'll pass them along to you there.
Also, though, there is other news to talk about in Iraq today. Let's start again there as we reset things.
An apparent attack on an Iraqi police vehicle. This was in northwest Baghdad. Three civilians are dead, two others wounded in the bombing. Less than an hour earlier, another blast, this one near a hospital in Baghdad. The explosion killing two civilians, wounding three others, including a high ranking Iraqi official.
Also, a formal change of command in Iraq. At a hand over ceremony in Baghdad, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez officially stepping down as the top U.S. commander in that country. Sanchez had come under fire after the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. He had some comments about that just today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. ARMY: We are conducting the investigations. We've immediately reported them. And, in the end, the facts will be laid on the table and we'll be objective and those that are to be held accountable will be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: General Sanchez being replaced by General George Casey, who is the Army's vice chief of staff. Pentagon officials say replacing Sanchez is routine and does not reflect a loss of confidence in his leadership.
Also, a major security crackdown under way today at U.S. ports. It's called Operation Port Shield. The Coast Guard keeping a closer eye on who is passing through the country's ports. And there are many. Officials reportedly estimate that coordinating the enforcement will cost about $7.4 billion over the next 10 years.
Also, one other story today. Senior citizens apparently not receiving promised discounts. Older Americans had hoped a new Medicare program would lower the prices of prescription costs. But a new survey shows prices are going up, cutting into savings. The AARP says recent prices for many prescription drugs are triple the general inflation rate.
Now 19 minutes past the hour here.
We're still awaiting that tape -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Yes, of course. And that is going to be -- prescription drugs -- a huge issue in the election. I mean it's a huge issue overall, but certainly in the election, as well.
Let's turn to business news now. The question, of course, where do we go from here now that the Fed has made its move on interest rates?
With that and a market preview, Andy Serwer is minding your business -- good morning.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning to you guys.
Of course, the Federal Reserve did stick to the script yesterday, Soledad, raising its key interest rate by a quarter point, to 1.25 percent. That means we'll likely be seeing higher rates on credit cards and mortgages going forward, especially since this is likely not the first rate hike we will be seeing over the coming months.
Just as important as the hike itself, though, was what the Federal Reserve had to say in its statement. Let's look at some of the highlights of that. It sees basically that the economy is in a balanced state. Good news there. Inflation risks relatively low. Economic expansion solid. The job market improving. And future rate hikes measured. That might mean we'll see quarter point hikes over the next couple months.
The question, as you said, Soledad, how much and how fast will the rate hikes be? We'll be looking at new economic indicators. In particular, tomorrow we get the jobs report for the month of June, expecting the unemployment rate to hold steady at 5.6 percent. We're looking at 200,000 jobs created. We'll be watching that closely.
Let's talk about yesterday. The markets responded positively. Of course, a sigh of relief on Wall Street. The Dow up 22 points. You can see here this morning futures are mixed, Soledad. One stop we'll be watching is Time Warner, our parent company. It looks like they may be making a bid for MGM and that film library there.
HEMMER: Ooh.
O'BRIEN: Some other folks also may be making, you know, are holding...
SERWER: In the mix, as well.
O'BRIEN: ... I think close to the vest.
SERWER: Sony is there, too, it looks like. And, of course, MGM has the old James Bond and Pink Panther movies. So a nice Hollywood story there.
HEMMER: It's all about content.
SERWER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Andy, thanks a lot.
SERWER: You're welcome.
HEMMER: "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq," spoken at least twice today in court proceedings. "This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush."
We expect that videotape some time this morning. It may be a matter of minutes away. We'll get it to you as soon as it gets to us.
Right now we'll take a break.
Much more on a busy AMERICAN MORNING right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.
Let's check in with Jack.
These court proceedings, as described by Christiane Amanpour, I think they have been fascinating.
HEMMER: Yes.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: No question about it. And anxious, of course, to see the videotape.
But a couple of questions have occurred to me. Saddam Hussein might be old and he might be tired, but he's not stupid. And when he says this is theater, I think he's probably right. The interim government has been in power for an hour and a half and the first item of business is to do a high profile arraignment of Saddam Hussein. He's taken into court. He doesn't have any lawyers with him. Now, he knows he's going to be charged with seven war crimes, crimes against humanity, whatever.
Doesn't he -- isn't he supposed to have an attorney with him? I would guess. And under what set of laws in Iraq is he being charged? The laws that were on the books when he was running the country? Because he was the last government the country had. They haven't had a legislature. They haven't passed any laws since the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime.
So I'm just, you know, I'm kind of curious about whether or not he's a bit of a sly old fox. He's a nasty human being who's probably done a lot of bad things, but he's no dummy and some of the questions that he was asking in court I found fascinating.
O'BRIEN: It was interesting to hear the man who runs the Iraq Memory Foundation essentially saying this is a preview of what we're going to see in the trial, because he's raising the following issues -- immediately going to challenges of the legitimacy of the court, as you say.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Challenges to the proceedings as a whole, challenges to the facts -- Halabja. I've read about it. I don't really know that much about Halabja, apparently, sort of -- he was sort of saying. And then the defense, I've done nothing wrong. And I think that's a really interesting perspective.
CAFFERTY: That might be the weakest part of his argument, I've done nothing wrong. But I'm curious under what set of laws this proceeding is being done. I just -- that would be my first question.
O'BRIEN: That was his question.
CAFFERTY: And, you know, when they have a legislature and they have a constitution and they sit down and draft some rules for running the new country, you know, maybe that's the time you start prosecuting people.
I'm not sure that, you know, there's anything tangible that you can hang this on other than, as Mr. Hussein suggests, a bit of theater, so that the Iraqi people can be shown that the new government is taking forceful steps and doing something. And that's fine. But I mean...
HEMMER: Quite clearly, though...
CAFFERTY: ... keep it in perspective.
HEMMER: ... no one's ever been here before.
CAFFERTY: No.
HEMMER: We've never reached this point before and we are not quite sure what's going to happen next.
CAFFERTY: I mean that...
HEMMER: It's safe to say this is history being made today, too.
CAFFERTY: You know, not to put too dark a cloud over this, but the kind of stuff Saddam Hussein's government used to do is to drag people into court and charge them because they felt like it, without any particular set of laws to govern the proceedings. Just a thought.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: There are 11 others, we know, that will face in the -- the Iraqi judge, anyway, face their today with these court proceedings. Saddam Hussein's proceedings lasted about 30 minutes, based on the description from Christiane Amanpour. Earlier, we were told that each individual would spend about 10 minutes before that judge. Perhaps that changes. Maybe it's longer. Maybe it's shorter. But throughout the morning here, we will get more information on what's happening with the 11 others.
Back to Anderson Cooper, who's live in Baghdad -- Anderson, good afternoon there yet again.
What more are you learning?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Bill, let's talk a little bit about those 11 others. Among them, Tariq Aziz, a man many of us got used to seeing during the first Gulf War, Iraq's deputy foreign minister, deputy prime minister, also, at -- later on. Also, "Chemical Ali," the man who people thought had been killed in an air strike during the war. It turns out he hadn't. He is walking with a cane now, but a man largely viewed as responsible for the gassing of the Kurds, hence his name, "Chemical Ali."
Those are just two of the 11 former regime members who are now in that Iraqi tribunal, facing that Iraqi tribunal.
Now, what we also understand is that Saddam Hussein may not be the first of these 12 who is actually brought into justice, whose trial gets under way first. There is one line of argument that goes they may try to build cases against others in this grouping of 12, which includes Saddam Hussein, in order to build a case against Hussein. Because, remember, legally, it doesn't have to be shown that Saddam Hussein ordered some of these crimes against humanity, some of these war crimes. He just has to have been aware of them taking place and not really done anything to stop them or prevent them. That would be enough to get a guilty verdict against Saddam Hussein.
So the burden of proof may not be as great as some might have anticipated early on. There does not have to be a document signed by Saddam Hussein, an order signed by Hussein. If they can build a case using some of these other 11, then they can bring that, maybe get them to turn somewhat against Saddam Hussein for his eventual trial, which, according to people here on the ground, is not going to take place any time in the year 2004 -- Bill.
HEMMER: He is now a criminal defendant.
Anderson, I thought you reported earlier today about Iraqis that you have spoken to who actually thought this proceeding, when it gets under way, they assumed that he would be hung and hung immediately.
COOPER: Yes.
HEMMER: So the reaction in Iraq is going to be fascinating, too, as we go throughout the day.
Anderson, stand by in Baghdad.
Let's get a break here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Much more to come.
Awaiting that videotape.
Back in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired July 1, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Welcome back, everybody.
The main story, of course, that we're following this morning is the court appearance of Saddam Hussein. It ended just about an hour ago and we are told by CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, who was in the courtroom, had a chance to be among the very few who got to witness the proceedings, that Saddam Hussein refused to sign court papers and he also defended the invasion of Kuwait.
She described him as combative at times. He referred to himself a couple of times as the president of Iraq.
In fact, let's check right back in with Christiane, who can update us on exactly what happened this morning, starting at just about an hour ago, when the court proceedings began against Saddam Hussein. Christiane, good morning again.
Give us a sense of the tone in the courtroom as Saddam Hussein walked in.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, everybody, as you can imagine, was just waiting for this moment. It was about 10 minutes and we kept being given false starts. And everybody was on the edge of their seats waiting to see what he would look like, how he would react.
He came in, not handcuffed, into the actual courtroom. Those had been taken off him. He was tall. He was surrounded by two big, big burly Iraqi correctional service guards,. He was wearing a gray jacket, a suit jacket; a white, very, very starched white shirt; a belt; trousers, brown trousers; very highly polished black shoes; brown socks. And he had his beard, though not as shaggy as you can remember from those pictures in December when he was caught. It was very neatly trimmed, but it was a beard, not just his moustache.
He had bags under his eyes. His face looked very dark and have looked very, very subdued, very lost, very much like what am I doing here? And he came in and he was sort of -- sort helped into the chair by the guards. And he sat down and he sort of leaned his arm against the chair and he had his hand in his face and sometimes his hand over his face and sometimes looking down.
And he started to have this interaction with the judge. This was the forum whereby not only was he going to be read his rights and asked whether he wanted counsel, whether he could afford counsel, but this was also an occasion for him to ask questions. He has not been allowed to ask questions, for instance, yesterday, when they took legal custody of him. So this was his opportunity to ask what was going on.
And, as I say, we're still waiting for the extensive and minute by minute translation, because it all took place in Arabic. No simultaneous translation. But we had some Arabic speakers sitting, certainly sitting next to me, our CNN producer and also a pool translator was there, as well.
Saddam Hussein's voice, I was surprised, was quite weak. It was quite hoarse. Even when he tried to raise his voice and jabbing his finger at the judge and asking the judge under whose jurisdiction do you presume to be here? Who are you? What is the legal basis for this court?
He was gesticulating and gesturing with his hands. The guards in there and the other Iraqis in there, the court reporters, some of the members of the new government, some of their assistants, they were all riveted, listening very, very intently to what he was saying; for the first time seeing Saddam in that kind of position after so many decades of being terrorized by him and by his regime.
Each time that Saddam tried to interrupt, he would say, "Please," and he would use this gesture of interrupting the judge and, "Please can I?" And then he would go on to ask whatever he wanted to ask.
At one point he looked around to us and he smiled and he said, "This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush," he said, "to win his policies, to promote his campaign." But he kept saying Bush was the criminal, not him.
He was attacking the Kuwaitis again when he was accused of invading Kuwait. He said, "How could you, as an Iraqi," he said to the judge, "tell me that we invaded Kuwait? This was our right. I did this for the Iraqi people. They were trying to lower the price of oil to turn our people into paupers and to make Iraqi women prostitutes for just $10."
So these were some of the things that he was saying. He, at one point he took out a piece of paper, a yellow paper like this, from his jacket, from inside his jacket. He had a pen and he was writing while the judge was talking to the court reporters.
After the judge had finished talking to the court reporters, he announced, "Let it be known to this court that Saddam Hussein has acknowledged his name, his age, who he is and that he understands what is going on."
The court reporters, two of them, two Iraqis, were doing all the note taking by longhand. There were no machines, none of that. It was all by longhand.
And basically that's it. He was presented with seven charges under this initial arrest warrant. These will not be the final formal indictment, but it will probably form the basis of that. Basically what's happened is that he's been arraigned on suspicion of having committed these crimes and now the investigative procedure starts. And when they've got all the investigation, they've sifted through all the evidence, then the formal indictment is laid.
O'BRIEN: Christiane Amanpour for us this morning.
Christiane, a fascinating description.
We're going to ask you to stick around.
Of course, as you mentioned, we are waiting for the videotape of that proceeding. So it should be coming to us fairly shortly. And as soon as we get that, we'll turn around and show it to you.
We want to check back in with Hassan Mneimneh.
He is with the Iraq Memory Foundation, which has gathered truly hundreds of thousands of pages of evidence of Saddam's brutal regime that they plan to use at his trial.
He's in Washington, D.C. this morning.
Good morning to you once again.
What did you make of Christiane's description of Saddam Hussein? She described him as both defiant and a little bit confused and friendly at times -- a seemingly contradictory description, certainly.
What did it seem like to you?
HASSAN MNEIMNEH, IRAQ MEMORY FOUNDATION: I think her reports, in a certain sense, provides us with a dry run of what will come next. Four lines of defense were presented by Saddam and these four lines are likely to be presented later on in the course of the actual trial.
The first one is the challenge to the jurisdiction, challenge to the legitimacy of the court. Then a challenge to the procedure -- Saddam refusing to sign, Saddam refusing to acknowledge that the procedure is correct. And then a challenge to the facts, denying that facts presented to him are true. Halabja, meaning he considers that -- meaning he's not aware of Halabja or he heard about it in the news. And the fourth line of defense is the defiant assertion that he has done nothing wrong and the criminals are elsewhere, whether it's Bush or whether it's the Kuwaitis, etc.
So we're likely to see these four lines of defense repeated again and again. And I think it's ultimately important in order to address them to present the facts in a way that takes it beyond the person of Saddam and focusing on the crimes that he has -- he and his regime have actually committed.
O'BRIEN: It was interesting to hear from both Christiane and Anderson, as well, the description of Iraqis and their reaction, not only to the court proceedings, but certainly the guards who are bringing Saddam Hussein in and out. Christiane said they gave thumbs up and said it's a great day or something like that in Arabic.
What do you think the reaction is now that people are starting to hear what went on inside that courtroom today?
MNEIMNEH: Well, it can be the beginning of demonstrating, actually demonstrating that the rule of law is not just a slogan, but is something that the new Iraq is going to witness, it's going to live, it's going to integrate as part of its system of governance. And this is why ultimately it is extremely important to have these proceedings as transparent as possible. I hope that ultimately the audio will be released. I hope that everything that happens in that court will be scrutinized by everyone in order not to allow for the inevitable attempts at portraying what is happening as being nothing but a sham, nothing but theater, as Saddam has already stated.
So it's extremely important for us in order to move beyond that to be able to follow what's happened and to face him with the facts, to face him with the details about the various crimes. I mean the preliminary charges are actually just a sampling of what I'm hoping that the Iraqi public, the Arab public at large, the word community in its totality, will be able to look carefully at and consider in what comes next.
O'BRIEN: But at the same time, you have said that the charges -- that the evidence against Saddam Hussein, that Saddam Hussein was very careful to always distance himself through several layers so that there may not be a direct link to him in the hundreds of thousands of pages of evidence that you have at your disposal at this time.
Potentially, doesn't that mean the case could be weak against Saddam Hussein?
MNEIMNEH: Not at all. I mean, after all, part of what he has said is almost I mean incredible. I mean to say that he has heard about Halabja in the news reported, this is, again, we're not talking here about a laid back manager who assigns, who delegates and who lets his subordinates take charge. We're talking, indeed, about a dictator, a totalitarian dictator who has -- who is ultimately responsible and directly responsible for every action that is done on his behalf. And no one, I mean just looking through all the documents that we have, we realize that even at the level of his secret service, at the level of the various institutions of control that he has created, no one dared take any initiative or any action without ultimately direct approval.
This is someone who scrutinized the paper on a daily basis and commented on the cartoons in the paper, who comments on the poems. So we're not talking here about someone who's distant from what has happened.
Ultimately, the responsibility of leadership is going to assert the fact, is going to prove the fact that he is responsible for all those crimes. But I think the case needs to be made carefully, systematically and over a long period of time, because ultimately this is not about Saddam Hussein. This is about a whole regime of oppression and this is about trying to inject new elements into the political culture of Iraq, which is longing for it, in a certain sense.
So we need to be extremely careful about how the proceedings end up happening down the line and we need to be critical of the court to the extent, meaning pushing it towards transparency and insisting on the whole proceedings following, meaning the ultimate standard. Yes, let's hold this court, which ultimately is going to give us something new in Iraq and far beyond, let's hold it to the highest standards possible.
O'BRIEN: Hassan Mneimneh of the Iraqi Memory Foundation, joining us this morning from Washington.
Thanks for your time.
MNEIMNEH: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Of course, we're going to ask you, as well, to stick around this morning as these court proceedings continue.
Thanks for being with us -- Bill.
HEMMER: And again the big story that we are awaiting now out of Iraq is this videotape, said to be about 30 minutes in length. All the proceedings conducted in Arabic. We're waiting on a translation. That will happen some time. We will see these images at some point this morning. We just cannot nail it down right now. So we ask you to be patient with us.
Seven preliminary charges read against Saddam Hussein, including the invasion of Kuwait back in August of 1990; the suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprisings in 1991. And for the Shiite population, a very sensitive issue even today. The Shiites say in southern Iraq they were encouraged by the U.S. government and encouraged by the CIA to be defiant against Saddam Hussein and many hundreds, maybe more, paid with their lives for that uprising in 1991.
Political killings, religious killings and the gassing of the Kurds going back to the town of Halabja, northeastern Iraq, in the year 1988.
Frank Rubino is still with us from Miami, Florida.
He defended Manuel Noriega.
Back with us to talk about these matters.
Good morning again, Frank.
FRANK RUBINO, DEFENDED MANUEL NORIEGA: Good morning.
HEMMER: You heard our last analyst say it's a dry run.
Is this what we can expect from Saddam Hussein down the road -- defiant in the face of a judge?
RUBINO: Defiant and, in fact, from what I saw, belligerent. And I think we're going to see that characteristic throughout the entire trial. I wouldn't be surprised if he sort of, in some respects, pushes advice from his defense team away and almost takes charge himself of his defense.
HEMMER: Two quotes we got from Christiane Amanpour on the screen for our viewers in court today. "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq." He said that at least twice today. And, "This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush."
Examine this, Frank.
What does it tell you?
RUBINO: Well, I see theater on the other side. I see theater on the side of Saddam Hussein. What I think Saddam Hussein is going to try to do is not plead his case in court, but try to plead his cause. I think he's going to stand on the soap box and he's going to sing the opera.
HEMMER: The national security adviser in Iraq earlier in the week said this is the trial of the century.
Is that overstated in any way?
RUBINO: Well, it is because we have a world leader on trial for crimes occurring in his own nation, if you will. We've never really had anything of this drama before, and probably never will. So I think I'd go with that. Yes, it is.
HEMMER: Who testifies against him? And what do you believe about the concerns we're hearing about witnesses being very apprehensive, fearing for their own lives and their own security? And as I say that, our guidance tells us that when we see that videotape, the faces of all the participants in the proceedings inside the courtroom will essentially be blocked out, trying to give them protection, as well, for their own safety and security.
RUBINO: And I think that can easily be accomplished. They could have the person testify, if you will, behind a screen so the public couldn't see them. I'm not sure whether they're going to have cameras in the courtroom or not. But there are ways to protect the identity of witnesses. It's not necessary to know the name, address and phone number of a witness. It's his testimony, it's what he's seen and what he's observed that really counts.
HEMMER: All right, Frank...
RUBINO: So I think there are ways.
HEMMER: Frank, thanks.
Frank Rubino live in Miami, Florida again.
And we ask you to stand by. We will be coming back to you throughout the morning here.
Again, to our viewers, waiting on that videotape out of Baghdad. When we get it, first thing, we'll see it here -- now, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right, thanks, Bill.
Let's check back in with Christiane Amanpour.
It was interesting, Christiane, to listen to Frank Rubino a little earlier talking with Bill. He, of course, represented Manuel Noriega. And he said, to some degree, he thinks it's a done deal, that he's going to be convicted, Saddam Hussein, convicted and killed as a result of this. He's predicting it already.
Do you think that there is a sense in Iraq that that is, in fact, going to happen, that it's pretty much an open and closed case against him?
AMANPOUR: Well, look, I'm sure many people believe that it is an open and closed case. But in the legal procedure and in a proper, fair legal process, all the bases have to be covered. The proper crime base has to be built. We've been speaking to Department of Justice lawyers who are here helping with this Iraqi special tribunal and I know one of the lawyers from when he did his work in the Balkans, also for the war crimes tribunal; again, what we thought was an open and shut case.
It takes an enormous amount of hard evidence, not just the evidence, but the evidence to prove command responsibility so that either that Saddam directly gave the orders for whatever crime or that he knew those crimes were going on and he did nothing to stop them. Either of those are included in command responsibility.
And in order to be convicted of genocide, crimes against humanity, which are the most serious crimes in the entire legal process, it has to be a very careful indictment that is gathered and laid.
So this is going to take time. And then it will go to court and then it will be judged. There will be a panel of judges. It will be tried. Presumably he'll have a lawyer. At this point, we're told that he probably will not be allowed to defend himself. Again, they keep harking back to the Milosevic trial at the tribunal in the Hague, when Slobodan Milosevic was allowed -- this is the former dictator of Serbia -- was allowed to represent himself. And this has taken years, because he's used it as a political platform, as his own sort of political campaign.
This is not going to be allowed. Milosevic tried to call all sorts of important figures, officials from the American administration, the British administration. We're told that Saddam will not be able to call those kinds of figures.
So, but still, this is a process that has to not only go -- not only be seen to be going through the right legal channels and the legal methods, but it must go through the right legal methods. The Iraqis that I've talked to here who are involved in this Iraqi special tribunal say this is the example that we have to set. And even though many of our people want him dealt harshly with, we need to make this a fair trial. They say it's going to be an open trial.
O'BRIEN: Yes, much is at stake. No question about that.
Christiane Amanpour.
And Christiane, we should mention for everybody, we're waiting for this videotape to come in. And as soon as we get those pictures in, of course, we're going to bring them to you as they come in.
Let's go back to Bill.
HEMMER: All right, about 17 minutes past the hour, Soledad.
We're waiting on the videotape. And, again, there will be some sort of translation given.
As soon as we get the images, we'll pass them along to you there.
Also, though, there is other news to talk about in Iraq today. Let's start again there as we reset things.
An apparent attack on an Iraqi police vehicle. This was in northwest Baghdad. Three civilians are dead, two others wounded in the bombing. Less than an hour earlier, another blast, this one near a hospital in Baghdad. The explosion killing two civilians, wounding three others, including a high ranking Iraqi official.
Also, a formal change of command in Iraq. At a hand over ceremony in Baghdad, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez officially stepping down as the top U.S. commander in that country. Sanchez had come under fire after the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. He had some comments about that just today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. ARMY: We are conducting the investigations. We've immediately reported them. And, in the end, the facts will be laid on the table and we'll be objective and those that are to be held accountable will be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: General Sanchez being replaced by General George Casey, who is the Army's vice chief of staff. Pentagon officials say replacing Sanchez is routine and does not reflect a loss of confidence in his leadership.
Also, a major security crackdown under way today at U.S. ports. It's called Operation Port Shield. The Coast Guard keeping a closer eye on who is passing through the country's ports. And there are many. Officials reportedly estimate that coordinating the enforcement will cost about $7.4 billion over the next 10 years.
Also, one other story today. Senior citizens apparently not receiving promised discounts. Older Americans had hoped a new Medicare program would lower the prices of prescription costs. But a new survey shows prices are going up, cutting into savings. The AARP says recent prices for many prescription drugs are triple the general inflation rate.
Now 19 minutes past the hour here.
We're still awaiting that tape -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Yes, of course. And that is going to be -- prescription drugs -- a huge issue in the election. I mean it's a huge issue overall, but certainly in the election, as well.
Let's turn to business news now. The question, of course, where do we go from here now that the Fed has made its move on interest rates?
With that and a market preview, Andy Serwer is minding your business -- good morning.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning to you guys.
Of course, the Federal Reserve did stick to the script yesterday, Soledad, raising its key interest rate by a quarter point, to 1.25 percent. That means we'll likely be seeing higher rates on credit cards and mortgages going forward, especially since this is likely not the first rate hike we will be seeing over the coming months.
Just as important as the hike itself, though, was what the Federal Reserve had to say in its statement. Let's look at some of the highlights of that. It sees basically that the economy is in a balanced state. Good news there. Inflation risks relatively low. Economic expansion solid. The job market improving. And future rate hikes measured. That might mean we'll see quarter point hikes over the next couple months.
The question, as you said, Soledad, how much and how fast will the rate hikes be? We'll be looking at new economic indicators. In particular, tomorrow we get the jobs report for the month of June, expecting the unemployment rate to hold steady at 5.6 percent. We're looking at 200,000 jobs created. We'll be watching that closely.
Let's talk about yesterday. The markets responded positively. Of course, a sigh of relief on Wall Street. The Dow up 22 points. You can see here this morning futures are mixed, Soledad. One stop we'll be watching is Time Warner, our parent company. It looks like they may be making a bid for MGM and that film library there.
HEMMER: Ooh.
O'BRIEN: Some other folks also may be making, you know, are holding...
SERWER: In the mix, as well.
O'BRIEN: ... I think close to the vest.
SERWER: Sony is there, too, it looks like. And, of course, MGM has the old James Bond and Pink Panther movies. So a nice Hollywood story there.
HEMMER: It's all about content.
SERWER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Andy, thanks a lot.
SERWER: You're welcome.
HEMMER: "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq," spoken at least twice today in court proceedings. "This is all theater. The real criminal is Bush."
We expect that videotape some time this morning. It may be a matter of minutes away. We'll get it to you as soon as it gets to us.
Right now we'll take a break.
Much more on a busy AMERICAN MORNING right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.
Let's check in with Jack.
These court proceedings, as described by Christiane Amanpour, I think they have been fascinating.
HEMMER: Yes.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: No question about it. And anxious, of course, to see the videotape.
But a couple of questions have occurred to me. Saddam Hussein might be old and he might be tired, but he's not stupid. And when he says this is theater, I think he's probably right. The interim government has been in power for an hour and a half and the first item of business is to do a high profile arraignment of Saddam Hussein. He's taken into court. He doesn't have any lawyers with him. Now, he knows he's going to be charged with seven war crimes, crimes against humanity, whatever.
Doesn't he -- isn't he supposed to have an attorney with him? I would guess. And under what set of laws in Iraq is he being charged? The laws that were on the books when he was running the country? Because he was the last government the country had. They haven't had a legislature. They haven't passed any laws since the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime.
So I'm just, you know, I'm kind of curious about whether or not he's a bit of a sly old fox. He's a nasty human being who's probably done a lot of bad things, but he's no dummy and some of the questions that he was asking in court I found fascinating.
O'BRIEN: It was interesting to hear the man who runs the Iraq Memory Foundation essentially saying this is a preview of what we're going to see in the trial, because he's raising the following issues -- immediately going to challenges of the legitimacy of the court, as you say.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Challenges to the proceedings as a whole, challenges to the facts -- Halabja. I've read about it. I don't really know that much about Halabja, apparently, sort of -- he was sort of saying. And then the defense, I've done nothing wrong. And I think that's a really interesting perspective.
CAFFERTY: That might be the weakest part of his argument, I've done nothing wrong. But I'm curious under what set of laws this proceeding is being done. I just -- that would be my first question.
O'BRIEN: That was his question.
CAFFERTY: And, you know, when they have a legislature and they have a constitution and they sit down and draft some rules for running the new country, you know, maybe that's the time you start prosecuting people.
I'm not sure that, you know, there's anything tangible that you can hang this on other than, as Mr. Hussein suggests, a bit of theater, so that the Iraqi people can be shown that the new government is taking forceful steps and doing something. And that's fine. But I mean...
HEMMER: Quite clearly, though...
CAFFERTY: ... keep it in perspective.
HEMMER: ... no one's ever been here before.
CAFFERTY: No.
HEMMER: We've never reached this point before and we are not quite sure what's going to happen next.
CAFFERTY: I mean that...
HEMMER: It's safe to say this is history being made today, too.
CAFFERTY: You know, not to put too dark a cloud over this, but the kind of stuff Saddam Hussein's government used to do is to drag people into court and charge them because they felt like it, without any particular set of laws to govern the proceedings. Just a thought.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: There are 11 others, we know, that will face in the -- the Iraqi judge, anyway, face their today with these court proceedings. Saddam Hussein's proceedings lasted about 30 minutes, based on the description from Christiane Amanpour. Earlier, we were told that each individual would spend about 10 minutes before that judge. Perhaps that changes. Maybe it's longer. Maybe it's shorter. But throughout the morning here, we will get more information on what's happening with the 11 others.
Back to Anderson Cooper, who's live in Baghdad -- Anderson, good afternoon there yet again.
What more are you learning?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Bill, let's talk a little bit about those 11 others. Among them, Tariq Aziz, a man many of us got used to seeing during the first Gulf War, Iraq's deputy foreign minister, deputy prime minister, also, at -- later on. Also, "Chemical Ali," the man who people thought had been killed in an air strike during the war. It turns out he hadn't. He is walking with a cane now, but a man largely viewed as responsible for the gassing of the Kurds, hence his name, "Chemical Ali."
Those are just two of the 11 former regime members who are now in that Iraqi tribunal, facing that Iraqi tribunal.
Now, what we also understand is that Saddam Hussein may not be the first of these 12 who is actually brought into justice, whose trial gets under way first. There is one line of argument that goes they may try to build cases against others in this grouping of 12, which includes Saddam Hussein, in order to build a case against Hussein. Because, remember, legally, it doesn't have to be shown that Saddam Hussein ordered some of these crimes against humanity, some of these war crimes. He just has to have been aware of them taking place and not really done anything to stop them or prevent them. That would be enough to get a guilty verdict against Saddam Hussein.
So the burden of proof may not be as great as some might have anticipated early on. There does not have to be a document signed by Saddam Hussein, an order signed by Hussein. If they can build a case using some of these other 11, then they can bring that, maybe get them to turn somewhat against Saddam Hussein for his eventual trial, which, according to people here on the ground, is not going to take place any time in the year 2004 -- Bill.
HEMMER: He is now a criminal defendant.
Anderson, I thought you reported earlier today about Iraqis that you have spoken to who actually thought this proceeding, when it gets under way, they assumed that he would be hung and hung immediately.
COOPER: Yes.
HEMMER: So the reaction in Iraq is going to be fascinating, too, as we go throughout the day.
Anderson, stand by in Baghdad.
Let's get a break here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Much more to come.
Awaiting that videotape.
Back in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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