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American Morning
Cabinet Shuffle; Prisoner Killed; Interview With Merck CEO Raymond Gilmartin
Aired November 16, 2004 - 8:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good Tuesday morning to you, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins, in for Soledad.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Rick Sanchez, sitting in for Bill.
Other stories that we're following on this day, the drug company Merck is under intense scrutiny, accused of holding back information about the dangers from the drug Vioxx. We're going to find out what the chairman of Merck has to say about it. Our interview with him is coming up.
COLLINS: Also, what is the perfect diet? Sanjay Gupta back with us this morning with the results of a new study that may point many dieters in a whole new direction.
SANCHEZ: Sounds like an argument.
COLLINS: Check out my omelet here.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Breakfast was just delivered here. It's like being at the suite at the Waldorf.
SANCHEZ: For one of us.
CAFFERTY: Yes. Yes, it's...
COLLINS: Good morning, Jack.
CAFFERTY: How you doing, Heidi? You go ahead and eat, I'll do this.
We're talking this morning about how America's foreign policy may be different now that Colin Powell is leaving as secretary of state and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice is going to be nominated by the president to replace him. AM@CNN.com. We'll read some of the letters in about 20 minutes.
COLLINS: Very good. Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And let's do this now, let's go and check in on "Now in the News" with Daryn Kagan. She's at the CNN Center.
Hi, Daryn.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, good morning.
"Now in the News," U.S. and Iraqi security forces have launched a new offensive in Mosul. There are reports of sporadic fighting this morning as the Iraqi city remains under curfew.
Meanwhile, the U.S. military says Falluja is now secure. Multinational forces there have been pounding insurgent targets. Fighting there now said to be in its final stages.
Here in the U.S., Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter will argue that he should be the next chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Specter had been expected to assume the position, but some social conservatives say he's too liberal on abortion rights. Specter will meet with some Republican senators behind closed doors today. Anti- abortion activists are planning protests on Capitol Hill.
The new head of the CIA appears to be shaking things up a bit. Two top leaders at the CIA's clandestine service have submitted their resignations. The move comes just weeks after Porter Goss took over the CIA. It is not clear if the men decided to leave or if they were asked to step down.
More than 40 Cuban performers are asking for political asylum in the U.S. The entertainers are part of the Havana night club show in Las Vegas. This mass defection might be the biggest ever in U.S.- Cuban relations. The U.S. Immigration Service has six months to review the applications.
Back to you in New York.
SANCHEZ: All right. Thanks so much, Daryn.
We do have some news to share with you just now coming in. Two senior administration sources are telling CNN that Homeland Security Department Secretary Tom Ridge will also be leaving his post. No word on when he might resign. And the White House hasn't confirmed it yet.
Also, we're learning this, also from sources, it's expected today that President Bush will nominate someone in that position, and Tommy Thompson we understand is going to be leaving his post at Health and Human Services. As the story goes, Tommy Thompson, Secretary Tommy Thompson has chosen to stay within the administration. Not necessarily within the cabinet, but stay within the administration, and is looking to fill another post. Maybe not necessarily with the cabinet, but with the administration.
Once again, Tommy Thompson will be leaving Health and Human Services, but is hoping to stay inside the administration. We will certainly continue to follow those stories as they develop.
Meanwhile, Mr. Bush will nominate National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice for the cabinet post of secretary of state. Rice will likely be confirmed easily by the Senate, but not before some tough questioning over pre-9/11 intelligence failures. Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley will be likely named to fill Rice's job.
Current Secretary of State Colin Powell announced his resignation just yesterday. It wasn't unexpected. Powell was often at odds with Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on issues of foreign relations.
CNN political analyst and "LA Times" columnist Ron Brownstein is joining us now from Washington to try and discuss the issue further.
I guess, Ron, I should ask you, first of all, what do you make of these last two bits of items involving Tommy Thompson and others in the cabinet?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": Not entirely surprising, Rick. We had been expecting further changes in the cabinet. There really is a contrast between the stability in the upper reaches of the White House and the enormous change we're seeing in the cabinet.
Tommy Thompson always preferred to be Transportation secretary. That was his original preference as the governor of Wisconsin, of course, when he came in to the administration. It will be interesting to see whether he is a competitor for that job, if Norm Mineta, who -- the current occupant leaves, as is expected.
Tom Ridge made no secret that he wanted to exit at the end of the first term. And I think that was expected, as well. We're seeing a big shakeup in the cabinet, as I say, even as we see stability in the upper reach of the White House.
SANCHEZ: Do you think Colin Powell would have stayed if the president would have asked him to? And if that's the case, then is he really resigning?
BROWNSTEIN: That's a very good question. I think it was pretty clear he might have stayed a little while longer. I don't know if he would have signed on for another four years. But certainly it indicated a willingness to stay a little further.
I don't think it's quite a resignation. I think it's sort of a parting, sort of a mutual parting at this point. Look, Colin Powell was someone who was not always on the same wave length as the other senior national security advisers, as you mentioned.
SANCHEZ: Do you think, Ron, he felt marginalized, as many of us suspect, even though he was a good soldier and never showed it or talked about it?
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, well, I think clearly he felt -- by all indications, he felt that his influence was not always paramount. I mea, people who dealt with him from the outside felt that he was a sympathetic ear but not necessarily always a winning advocate. And that's what Condoleezza Rice sort of brings to the job. She's is someone who's not necessarily going to be as sympathetic to the point of view of traditional European allies, perhaps some of the Middle Eastern countries. Others around the world have been skeptical of President Bush's foreign policy, but there's a sense that perhaps she will be better able to deliver President Bush if you can get her to agree with you.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of this quandary then if it happens: Rice, secretary of state, will put Wolfowitz at national security adviser, as some are suspecting might happen? Cheney as first lieutenant, Rumsfeld in Defense. Those are four people who will tend to agree with each other an awful lot, won't they?
BROWNSTEIN: Even if it's Steve Hadley, her deputy as national security adviser, which may seem more likely if Condoleezza Rice wants someone there that she feels that she has a good relationship with, yes. I mean, look, this is a second term, and you can look at the same thing on domestic issues that is going to be more coherent. The question is whether it's going to be too conformist.
I disagree with a little of the conversation in the past -- previous half-hour with some of your guests. There is, within any political coalition, a range of opinion. And any president I think is well served by hearing contrary arguments to what he wants to do before a decision is made, because you can be sure he's going to hear them after a decision is made.
And I think the big question will be for this team, both domestic and foreign, with many White House people moving out to the agencies on the domestic side, as well. Is the president going to hear as broad a range of dissenting views as he needs to before? I think that's very much an open question.
SANCHEZ: We've got some more breaking news we can share with you. You mentioned it just moments ago about Hadley getting the post. We understand now that he will get that post. In fact, it's going to be announced at 12:30. We'll have it for you here on CNN.
Ron, what do you make of that, Mr. Hadley?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, if you're Condoleezza Rice, and you've been at the center of decision-making -- and you know how influential that job can be -- there's always got to be a hesitation about moving out from the White House to an agency. You're going to want someone back at the agency -- at the White House who you feel that you have a good pipeline to, a good relationship with. And I think it would be very much in her interest to have her deputy ascend to that job because it ensures that she still has a clear entree to the decision- makers at the White House.
SANCHEZ: So tell us about Hadley. What should the American people know?
We know so much about all the other names that have been mentioned. But I think Americans know very little about Stephen Hadley. What kind of member of this cabinet will he make? BROWNSTEIN: Well, as an adviser -- you know, we'll have to see. Well, first of all, Rick, we'll have to see what the job becomes with Condoleezza Rice moving over to secretary of state. Does she, in effect, take her influence with her?
The big critique of Rice was more as a manager of national security, rather than a person -- national security process rather than as an adviser to the president. Now, whether the interagency process worked well enough in terms of allowing the dissenting, the differing points of views to be hashed out before they reached the president, Hadley is considered a skilled manager. And I think that will be the biggest challenge for him moving up, is developing a process that works, especially with Rice now another powerful personality out in the cabinet.
SANCHEZ: All right. So that news just coming in to us. Ron Brownstein, thank you for joining us and sharing your insight with us, just as this news, in fact, was being made here on CNN.
Once again, the national security adviser position goes to Stephen Hadley and the woman who was at the national security adviser position is moving on to secretary of state. And those decisions will be announced today at 12:30 by the president. He will be flanked by both of those individuals, and of course we'll have it for you right here on CNN.
An awful lot of changes, Heidi.
COLLINS: The actions of a U.S. Marine who shot and killed a wounded and apparently unarmed Iraqi prisoner are now under a criminal military investigation. Barbara Starr is joining us now from the Pentagon with more on this story.
Barbara, good morning to you.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you again, Heidi.
The 1st Marine Division in Iraq has now opened an investigation into the shooting death on Saturday in Falluja of an unarmed, wounded Iraqi insurgent that was already in U.S. custody. Marines entered a mosque in Falluja, found some wounded Iraqis that had been left behind there. And all of this was captured on videotape by a reporter traveling with the Marines.
We're going to show you the videotape. We want to warn people, it is very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there Marines in there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they're on the far right, far right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming around the back.
Hey, who's in here?
What (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you doing in here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) got shot by tanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Us?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
You guys almost got shot up by tanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They told us to come in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tanks did?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They told us there were people in here, and tell us to come in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we had two in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you shoot them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have any weapons on them?
Same guys from yesterday? All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the ones from yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the wounded that they never picked up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's (EXPLETIVE DELETED) faking he's dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he's breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's faking (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Heidi, we are freezing the frame right there, as the Marine raises his gun and shoots the man in the head. We are not showing the most explicit parts of the video.
To be clear, what happens in this video is these Marines enter a mosque where some wounded Iraqis had been left the day before. And apparently, according to this video, one of them is then shot in the head by the Marines.
All of this now under investigation. The shooting death of the wounded man, why these Iraqis were left and not picked up by Marines and taken out of this mosque, the whole incident now under investigation for a possible violation of the laws of armed conflict -- Heidi. COLLINS: And Barbara, you know, we spoke with a retired general a little bit earlier on the show about this incident. And he talks about fog of war. We hear a lot about fog of war.
In this case, difficult for those soldiers to know at that point who might still have been armed in that mosque?
STARR: That may be one of the parts of the investigation, indeed. The wounded men were left behind. The Marines come and find them a day later.
There may be some part of the investigation that deals, of course, with whether these Iraqis may have had weapons, whether they had been disarmed, what their exact situation was. But, if it is proven that an unarmed prisoner or an unarmed insurgent was shot, and that insurgent did not pose a threat, that would be a violation of law. That is going to be one of the critical matters that the investigation will have to resolve -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Rules of engagement. All right. Barbara Starr, thank you.
SANCHEZ: Trying to get a look at the weather now. Or time, I should say, not trying, which is also an interesting word. Chad Myers is checking on things for us at the CNN Center in Atlanta with the very latest -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Rick.
(WEATHER REPORT)
SANCHEZ: All right. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Are we are going to me? Thank you.
The man they call Mr. Domino is at it again. He's the team leader who designed this course of dominoes in the record. His group set a record for knocking dominoes down. The team won Friday for setting up and toppling more than 4,250,000 dominoes.
It took 60 days to build. It fell in an hour and a half.
COLLINS: Seems like a pretty quick -- it's beautiful, but it seems like...
SANCHEZ: A lot of work.
COLLINS: Sixty days. Man. Now what if you're the guy that just takes one out of there and sabotages the whole thing?
SANCHEZ: If somebody comes by and knees?
COLLINS: I think you get in trouble -- yes.
Well, still to come this morning, how do you lose weight? Eat less and exercise is the usual advice. But what if eating more was the key? I like this. Dr. Sanjay Gupta going to talk about it.
SANCHEZ: Also ahead, the award for best fistfight goes to -- we'll show you more of this melee at the barb (ph) awards.
COLLINS: And the makers of Vioxx are facing hundreds of lawsuits and potentially thousands more. How does Merck respond to accusations it mishandled problems with the drug? We're going to hear from the company's chairman ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: What did pharmaceutical giant Merck know about the heart risk from Vioxx and when? On Thursday, a Senate hearing will examine whether the popular arthritis drug should have been pulled sooner due to safety concerns.
Merck chairman, president and CEO Raymond Gilmartin will testify. I talked with him a little bit earlier here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAYMOND GILMARTIN, CHAIRMAN, PRESIDENT & CEO, MERCK: In May of 2000, we had 28,000 patients on large trials that were randomized, controlled clinical trials that showed no difference between Vioxx and placebo and no difference between Vioxx and other NSAIDs such as ibuprofen. The first time we had a confirmed risk of Vioxx against placebo was when we got a call from the outside investigator on September 23 that said that he had seen, or the safety monitoring board had seen a higher risk of cardiovascular events that had developed beginning after 18 months, and they recommend we end the clinical trial. After we looked at the data, within less than a week we withdrew the drug voluntarily.
COLLINS: So you feel perfectly confident that with this letter you acted as quickly as you possibly could have?
GILMARTIN: Yes. In fact, this was a three-year trial that revealed this difference in cardiovascular risk. And it was only eight weeks before the end of the trial before this data showed that there was a significant risk.
And we started this trial in February of 2000 and designed it. And then added other trials to it in order to explore specifically whether or not there was a cardiovascular risk associated with Vioxx. And we pre-specified an end point to find that out.
And this is a trial that we did that demonstrated that. And remarkably, for the first 18 months, there was no difference. So it was consistent with all other our data. But at 18 months the risk started to build. And once we saw the data we withdrew the drug.
COLLINS: OK. So as you say, you acknowledged that there were risks, you pulled the drugs, and yet there are around 400 lawsuits now that could potentially be filed here. How will you handle these lawsuits? And how do you handle the people with these claims? GILMARTIN: I think it's important to keep in perspective here that the risk began only after 18 months of continue use. And as the FDA pointed out in their press release on the day that we announced that we were voluntarily withdrawing the drug, that the risk for any one individual for heart attack or stroke was very small. And the heart attacks and strokes occurred generally throughout the population for a variety of risk factors, and because someone is taking Vioxx doesn't mean that Vioxx caused that event.
COLLINS: But can you understand the public outcry when there are reports that say that there were -- like in "The Wall Street Journal," this came up about two weeks ago that said Merck got these red flags that were coming them to the potential dangers of Vioxx as far back as the mid 1990s? I mean, why did it take so long for Merck to recall Vioxx?
GILMARTIN: Well, because we had studied the drug extensively. We had all these trials, 28,000 patients, as I said earlier.
COLLINS: And as that information comes in, and if it is alarming -- or maybe that's too strong of a word. If it is different than what the expectation was, can the process not begin as far as being better safe than sorry, or as safe as possible, to start going in the direction of, you know, considering its disbursement?
GILMARTIN: Well, understand that we began a study in February of 2000. That was a three-year study that took over a year to enroll the patients, as it typically does. And this finding, this surprising finding did not show up until almost the end of the study, which is almost three years later. So we -- the first confirmed date that that we had that there was a risk against placebo was arrived at probably the earliest possible time, and it was arrived at because we did the trial to find it out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Raymond Gilmartin. About 20 million people used Vioxx since its launch back in 1999 -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, Heidi.
Still to come, Porter Goss shaking things up at the CIA. But has he put U.S. security at risk in so doing? A former CIA operative talks to us.
Stay with us on this AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) short stroke. Boom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "Boom" is right. Barry Bonds sets more records. The San Francisco Giants won his seventh most valuable player award. Count them, seven.
Bonds is the only player with more than three MVP awards and the only one to win more than two in a row. The 40-year-old is also the oldest National League player to win the award.
I think he's 40?
COLLINS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Forty, right?
COLLINS: Not too bad, huh?
Bill Hemmer's 40.
SANCHEZ: That's old.
CAFFERTY: I'm old. I'm 61. That's old. Bill Hemmer and Barry Bonds are children.
How are things going to be different with Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state as opposed to Colin Powell, who is resigning? There are a number of issues on the table, places like Iraq, and the war on terror, and Iran, and North Korea, and the Middle East. So she'll have plenty to do. But is it going to be better or worse under Ms. Rice?
Loretta in -- Dr. Rice, I guess, is the proper way to address her. Loretta in Bismarck, North Dakota, "There will be no diplomacy at all from this administration without Colin Powell. They don't understand that diplomacy and demanding are not the same thing."
Bob in Philadelphia, "This woman is going to fool everyone. She's sharp and I believe she'll grow into the job. She has firm backing from the number one guy, and that means a lot."
That means everything.
Charles in Washington, "This president encourages failure by rewarding failure. 9/11 happened on Rice's watch, and now she gets a promotion? She was wrong for the national security job and she's wrong for Powell's old job."
Carol in New Brunswick, Canada, "So many people have condemned Condoleezza's appointment that I felt I should chime in and support. You all seem to have missed the main concept, so I'll point it out by asking this one question: when was the last time you won an argument with a woman? Good luck, North Korea."
(LAUGHTER)
CAFFERTY: She may be able to back that guy right...
COLLINS: Now, come on.
CAFFERTY: What? See, I rest my case. COLLINS: OK.
Anyway, still to come this morning, we're going to be talking about those changes in the cabinet. But what about the leadership now on Capitol Hill? We're going to go live to Washington for the very latest developments there.
Plus, six months is a long time to spend in a small place with just one other person. Some would say, tough to spend time like that with Jack Cafferty. But we're talking about outer space instead. You're going to hear from two men who did just that ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired November 16, 2004 - 8:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good Tuesday morning to you, everybody. I'm Heidi Collins, in for Soledad.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Rick Sanchez, sitting in for Bill.
Other stories that we're following on this day, the drug company Merck is under intense scrutiny, accused of holding back information about the dangers from the drug Vioxx. We're going to find out what the chairman of Merck has to say about it. Our interview with him is coming up.
COLLINS: Also, what is the perfect diet? Sanjay Gupta back with us this morning with the results of a new study that may point many dieters in a whole new direction.
SANCHEZ: Sounds like an argument.
COLLINS: Check out my omelet here.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Breakfast was just delivered here. It's like being at the suite at the Waldorf.
SANCHEZ: For one of us.
CAFFERTY: Yes. Yes, it's...
COLLINS: Good morning, Jack.
CAFFERTY: How you doing, Heidi? You go ahead and eat, I'll do this.
We're talking this morning about how America's foreign policy may be different now that Colin Powell is leaving as secretary of state and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice is going to be nominated by the president to replace him. AM@CNN.com. We'll read some of the letters in about 20 minutes.
COLLINS: Very good. Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And let's do this now, let's go and check in on "Now in the News" with Daryn Kagan. She's at the CNN Center.
Hi, Daryn.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, good morning.
"Now in the News," U.S. and Iraqi security forces have launched a new offensive in Mosul. There are reports of sporadic fighting this morning as the Iraqi city remains under curfew.
Meanwhile, the U.S. military says Falluja is now secure. Multinational forces there have been pounding insurgent targets. Fighting there now said to be in its final stages.
Here in the U.S., Pennsylvania Senator Arlen Specter will argue that he should be the next chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Specter had been expected to assume the position, but some social conservatives say he's too liberal on abortion rights. Specter will meet with some Republican senators behind closed doors today. Anti- abortion activists are planning protests on Capitol Hill.
The new head of the CIA appears to be shaking things up a bit. Two top leaders at the CIA's clandestine service have submitted their resignations. The move comes just weeks after Porter Goss took over the CIA. It is not clear if the men decided to leave or if they were asked to step down.
More than 40 Cuban performers are asking for political asylum in the U.S. The entertainers are part of the Havana night club show in Las Vegas. This mass defection might be the biggest ever in U.S.- Cuban relations. The U.S. Immigration Service has six months to review the applications.
Back to you in New York.
SANCHEZ: All right. Thanks so much, Daryn.
We do have some news to share with you just now coming in. Two senior administration sources are telling CNN that Homeland Security Department Secretary Tom Ridge will also be leaving his post. No word on when he might resign. And the White House hasn't confirmed it yet.
Also, we're learning this, also from sources, it's expected today that President Bush will nominate someone in that position, and Tommy Thompson we understand is going to be leaving his post at Health and Human Services. As the story goes, Tommy Thompson, Secretary Tommy Thompson has chosen to stay within the administration. Not necessarily within the cabinet, but stay within the administration, and is looking to fill another post. Maybe not necessarily with the cabinet, but with the administration.
Once again, Tommy Thompson will be leaving Health and Human Services, but is hoping to stay inside the administration. We will certainly continue to follow those stories as they develop.
Meanwhile, Mr. Bush will nominate National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice for the cabinet post of secretary of state. Rice will likely be confirmed easily by the Senate, but not before some tough questioning over pre-9/11 intelligence failures. Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley will be likely named to fill Rice's job.
Current Secretary of State Colin Powell announced his resignation just yesterday. It wasn't unexpected. Powell was often at odds with Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on issues of foreign relations.
CNN political analyst and "LA Times" columnist Ron Brownstein is joining us now from Washington to try and discuss the issue further.
I guess, Ron, I should ask you, first of all, what do you make of these last two bits of items involving Tommy Thompson and others in the cabinet?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": Not entirely surprising, Rick. We had been expecting further changes in the cabinet. There really is a contrast between the stability in the upper reaches of the White House and the enormous change we're seeing in the cabinet.
Tommy Thompson always preferred to be Transportation secretary. That was his original preference as the governor of Wisconsin, of course, when he came in to the administration. It will be interesting to see whether he is a competitor for that job, if Norm Mineta, who -- the current occupant leaves, as is expected.
Tom Ridge made no secret that he wanted to exit at the end of the first term. And I think that was expected, as well. We're seeing a big shakeup in the cabinet, as I say, even as we see stability in the upper reach of the White House.
SANCHEZ: Do you think Colin Powell would have stayed if the president would have asked him to? And if that's the case, then is he really resigning?
BROWNSTEIN: That's a very good question. I think it was pretty clear he might have stayed a little while longer. I don't know if he would have signed on for another four years. But certainly it indicated a willingness to stay a little further.
I don't think it's quite a resignation. I think it's sort of a parting, sort of a mutual parting at this point. Look, Colin Powell was someone who was not always on the same wave length as the other senior national security advisers, as you mentioned.
SANCHEZ: Do you think, Ron, he felt marginalized, as many of us suspect, even though he was a good soldier and never showed it or talked about it?
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, well, I think clearly he felt -- by all indications, he felt that his influence was not always paramount. I mea, people who dealt with him from the outside felt that he was a sympathetic ear but not necessarily always a winning advocate. And that's what Condoleezza Rice sort of brings to the job. She's is someone who's not necessarily going to be as sympathetic to the point of view of traditional European allies, perhaps some of the Middle Eastern countries. Others around the world have been skeptical of President Bush's foreign policy, but there's a sense that perhaps she will be better able to deliver President Bush if you can get her to agree with you.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of this quandary then if it happens: Rice, secretary of state, will put Wolfowitz at national security adviser, as some are suspecting might happen? Cheney as first lieutenant, Rumsfeld in Defense. Those are four people who will tend to agree with each other an awful lot, won't they?
BROWNSTEIN: Even if it's Steve Hadley, her deputy as national security adviser, which may seem more likely if Condoleezza Rice wants someone there that she feels that she has a good relationship with, yes. I mean, look, this is a second term, and you can look at the same thing on domestic issues that is going to be more coherent. The question is whether it's going to be too conformist.
I disagree with a little of the conversation in the past -- previous half-hour with some of your guests. There is, within any political coalition, a range of opinion. And any president I think is well served by hearing contrary arguments to what he wants to do before a decision is made, because you can be sure he's going to hear them after a decision is made.
And I think the big question will be for this team, both domestic and foreign, with many White House people moving out to the agencies on the domestic side, as well. Is the president going to hear as broad a range of dissenting views as he needs to before? I think that's very much an open question.
SANCHEZ: We've got some more breaking news we can share with you. You mentioned it just moments ago about Hadley getting the post. We understand now that he will get that post. In fact, it's going to be announced at 12:30. We'll have it for you here on CNN.
Ron, what do you make of that, Mr. Hadley?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, if you're Condoleezza Rice, and you've been at the center of decision-making -- and you know how influential that job can be -- there's always got to be a hesitation about moving out from the White House to an agency. You're going to want someone back at the agency -- at the White House who you feel that you have a good pipeline to, a good relationship with. And I think it would be very much in her interest to have her deputy ascend to that job because it ensures that she still has a clear entree to the decision- makers at the White House.
SANCHEZ: So tell us about Hadley. What should the American people know?
We know so much about all the other names that have been mentioned. But I think Americans know very little about Stephen Hadley. What kind of member of this cabinet will he make? BROWNSTEIN: Well, as an adviser -- you know, we'll have to see. Well, first of all, Rick, we'll have to see what the job becomes with Condoleezza Rice moving over to secretary of state. Does she, in effect, take her influence with her?
The big critique of Rice was more as a manager of national security, rather than a person -- national security process rather than as an adviser to the president. Now, whether the interagency process worked well enough in terms of allowing the dissenting, the differing points of views to be hashed out before they reached the president, Hadley is considered a skilled manager. And I think that will be the biggest challenge for him moving up, is developing a process that works, especially with Rice now another powerful personality out in the cabinet.
SANCHEZ: All right. So that news just coming in to us. Ron Brownstein, thank you for joining us and sharing your insight with us, just as this news, in fact, was being made here on CNN.
Once again, the national security adviser position goes to Stephen Hadley and the woman who was at the national security adviser position is moving on to secretary of state. And those decisions will be announced today at 12:30 by the president. He will be flanked by both of those individuals, and of course we'll have it for you right here on CNN.
An awful lot of changes, Heidi.
COLLINS: The actions of a U.S. Marine who shot and killed a wounded and apparently unarmed Iraqi prisoner are now under a criminal military investigation. Barbara Starr is joining us now from the Pentagon with more on this story.
Barbara, good morning to you.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you again, Heidi.
The 1st Marine Division in Iraq has now opened an investigation into the shooting death on Saturday in Falluja of an unarmed, wounded Iraqi insurgent that was already in U.S. custody. Marines entered a mosque in Falluja, found some wounded Iraqis that had been left behind there. And all of this was captured on videotape by a reporter traveling with the Marines.
We're going to show you the videotape. We want to warn people, it is very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there Marines in there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they're on the far right, far right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming around the back.
Hey, who's in here?
What (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you doing in here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) got shot by tanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Us?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
You guys almost got shot up by tanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They told us to come in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tanks did?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They told us there were people in here, and tell us to come in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we had two in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you shoot them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have any weapons on them?
Same guys from yesterday? All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the ones from yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the wounded that they never picked up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's (EXPLETIVE DELETED) faking he's dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he's breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's faking (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Heidi, we are freezing the frame right there, as the Marine raises his gun and shoots the man in the head. We are not showing the most explicit parts of the video.
To be clear, what happens in this video is these Marines enter a mosque where some wounded Iraqis had been left the day before. And apparently, according to this video, one of them is then shot in the head by the Marines.
All of this now under investigation. The shooting death of the wounded man, why these Iraqis were left and not picked up by Marines and taken out of this mosque, the whole incident now under investigation for a possible violation of the laws of armed conflict -- Heidi. COLLINS: And Barbara, you know, we spoke with a retired general a little bit earlier on the show about this incident. And he talks about fog of war. We hear a lot about fog of war.
In this case, difficult for those soldiers to know at that point who might still have been armed in that mosque?
STARR: That may be one of the parts of the investigation, indeed. The wounded men were left behind. The Marines come and find them a day later.
There may be some part of the investigation that deals, of course, with whether these Iraqis may have had weapons, whether they had been disarmed, what their exact situation was. But, if it is proven that an unarmed prisoner or an unarmed insurgent was shot, and that insurgent did not pose a threat, that would be a violation of law. That is going to be one of the critical matters that the investigation will have to resolve -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Rules of engagement. All right. Barbara Starr, thank you.
SANCHEZ: Trying to get a look at the weather now. Or time, I should say, not trying, which is also an interesting word. Chad Myers is checking on things for us at the CNN Center in Atlanta with the very latest -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Rick.
(WEATHER REPORT)
SANCHEZ: All right. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Are we are going to me? Thank you.
The man they call Mr. Domino is at it again. He's the team leader who designed this course of dominoes in the record. His group set a record for knocking dominoes down. The team won Friday for setting up and toppling more than 4,250,000 dominoes.
It took 60 days to build. It fell in an hour and a half.
COLLINS: Seems like a pretty quick -- it's beautiful, but it seems like...
SANCHEZ: A lot of work.
COLLINS: Sixty days. Man. Now what if you're the guy that just takes one out of there and sabotages the whole thing?
SANCHEZ: If somebody comes by and knees?
COLLINS: I think you get in trouble -- yes.
Well, still to come this morning, how do you lose weight? Eat less and exercise is the usual advice. But what if eating more was the key? I like this. Dr. Sanjay Gupta going to talk about it.
SANCHEZ: Also ahead, the award for best fistfight goes to -- we'll show you more of this melee at the barb (ph) awards.
COLLINS: And the makers of Vioxx are facing hundreds of lawsuits and potentially thousands more. How does Merck respond to accusations it mishandled problems with the drug? We're going to hear from the company's chairman ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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COLLINS: What did pharmaceutical giant Merck know about the heart risk from Vioxx and when? On Thursday, a Senate hearing will examine whether the popular arthritis drug should have been pulled sooner due to safety concerns.
Merck chairman, president and CEO Raymond Gilmartin will testify. I talked with him a little bit earlier here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAYMOND GILMARTIN, CHAIRMAN, PRESIDENT & CEO, MERCK: In May of 2000, we had 28,000 patients on large trials that were randomized, controlled clinical trials that showed no difference between Vioxx and placebo and no difference between Vioxx and other NSAIDs such as ibuprofen. The first time we had a confirmed risk of Vioxx against placebo was when we got a call from the outside investigator on September 23 that said that he had seen, or the safety monitoring board had seen a higher risk of cardiovascular events that had developed beginning after 18 months, and they recommend we end the clinical trial. After we looked at the data, within less than a week we withdrew the drug voluntarily.
COLLINS: So you feel perfectly confident that with this letter you acted as quickly as you possibly could have?
GILMARTIN: Yes. In fact, this was a three-year trial that revealed this difference in cardiovascular risk. And it was only eight weeks before the end of the trial before this data showed that there was a significant risk.
And we started this trial in February of 2000 and designed it. And then added other trials to it in order to explore specifically whether or not there was a cardiovascular risk associated with Vioxx. And we pre-specified an end point to find that out.
And this is a trial that we did that demonstrated that. And remarkably, for the first 18 months, there was no difference. So it was consistent with all other our data. But at 18 months the risk started to build. And once we saw the data we withdrew the drug.
COLLINS: OK. So as you say, you acknowledged that there were risks, you pulled the drugs, and yet there are around 400 lawsuits now that could potentially be filed here. How will you handle these lawsuits? And how do you handle the people with these claims? GILMARTIN: I think it's important to keep in perspective here that the risk began only after 18 months of continue use. And as the FDA pointed out in their press release on the day that we announced that we were voluntarily withdrawing the drug, that the risk for any one individual for heart attack or stroke was very small. And the heart attacks and strokes occurred generally throughout the population for a variety of risk factors, and because someone is taking Vioxx doesn't mean that Vioxx caused that event.
COLLINS: But can you understand the public outcry when there are reports that say that there were -- like in "The Wall Street Journal," this came up about two weeks ago that said Merck got these red flags that were coming them to the potential dangers of Vioxx as far back as the mid 1990s? I mean, why did it take so long for Merck to recall Vioxx?
GILMARTIN: Well, because we had studied the drug extensively. We had all these trials, 28,000 patients, as I said earlier.
COLLINS: And as that information comes in, and if it is alarming -- or maybe that's too strong of a word. If it is different than what the expectation was, can the process not begin as far as being better safe than sorry, or as safe as possible, to start going in the direction of, you know, considering its disbursement?
GILMARTIN: Well, understand that we began a study in February of 2000. That was a three-year study that took over a year to enroll the patients, as it typically does. And this finding, this surprising finding did not show up until almost the end of the study, which is almost three years later. So we -- the first confirmed date that that we had that there was a risk against placebo was arrived at probably the earliest possible time, and it was arrived at because we did the trial to find it out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Raymond Gilmartin. About 20 million people used Vioxx since its launch back in 1999 -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, Heidi.
Still to come, Porter Goss shaking things up at the CIA. But has he put U.S. security at risk in so doing? A former CIA operative talks to us.
Stay with us on this AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) short stroke. Boom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: "Boom" is right. Barry Bonds sets more records. The San Francisco Giants won his seventh most valuable player award. Count them, seven.
Bonds is the only player with more than three MVP awards and the only one to win more than two in a row. The 40-year-old is also the oldest National League player to win the award.
I think he's 40?
COLLINS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Forty, right?
COLLINS: Not too bad, huh?
Bill Hemmer's 40.
SANCHEZ: That's old.
CAFFERTY: I'm old. I'm 61. That's old. Bill Hemmer and Barry Bonds are children.
How are things going to be different with Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state as opposed to Colin Powell, who is resigning? There are a number of issues on the table, places like Iraq, and the war on terror, and Iran, and North Korea, and the Middle East. So she'll have plenty to do. But is it going to be better or worse under Ms. Rice?
Loretta in -- Dr. Rice, I guess, is the proper way to address her. Loretta in Bismarck, North Dakota, "There will be no diplomacy at all from this administration without Colin Powell. They don't understand that diplomacy and demanding are not the same thing."
Bob in Philadelphia, "This woman is going to fool everyone. She's sharp and I believe she'll grow into the job. She has firm backing from the number one guy, and that means a lot."
That means everything.
Charles in Washington, "This president encourages failure by rewarding failure. 9/11 happened on Rice's watch, and now she gets a promotion? She was wrong for the national security job and she's wrong for Powell's old job."
Carol in New Brunswick, Canada, "So many people have condemned Condoleezza's appointment that I felt I should chime in and support. You all seem to have missed the main concept, so I'll point it out by asking this one question: when was the last time you won an argument with a woman? Good luck, North Korea."
(LAUGHTER)
CAFFERTY: She may be able to back that guy right...
COLLINS: Now, come on.
CAFFERTY: What? See, I rest my case. COLLINS: OK.
Anyway, still to come this morning, we're going to be talking about those changes in the cabinet. But what about the leadership now on Capitol Hill? We're going to go live to Washington for the very latest developments there.
Plus, six months is a long time to spend in a small place with just one other person. Some would say, tough to spend time like that with Jack Cafferty. But we're talking about outer space instead. You're going to hear from two men who did just that ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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