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American Morning

Tracking Courthouse Shooting Suspect; '90-Second Pop'

Aired March 14, 2005 - 07:29   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Bill Hemmer has got the day off. Jack Cafferty is helping us out in that role this morning.
Nice to have you.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: He gets a lot of time off, doesn't he?

O'BRIEN: You know, my husband said that this morning. That guy's always on vacation. How about this woman...

CAFFERTY: It's all right, Bill. You've got nothing to worry about.

O'BRIEN: How about this woman in Atlanta?

CAFFERTY: Unbelievable.

O'BRIEN: Ashley Smith.

CAFFERTY: I mean, it's the most compelling videotape I think I can remember seeing in maybe 20-30, years.

O'BRIEN: Well, her interview...

CAFFERTY: Except maybe the World Trade Center towers coming down. This is amazing stuff.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Well, this, of course, is the woman who was taken hostage by that suspect in the murder rampage. Ashley Smith is now telling her story about how she was first tied up by Brian Nichols and a little bit -- after a little time won his confidence.

CAFFERTY: She talked for about 20 minutes in this interview. We're going to see a good part of that videotape as we move through the next couple of hours. Great stuff.

O'BRIEN: It is pretty amazing.

Before that, though, let's right get to the headlines. And Carol Costello is helping us out.

Good morning.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to both of you. Good morning to all of you.

"Now in the News."

Thousands are gathering in Beirut, Lebanon, right now for an anti-Syrian protest. Take a look at these pictures. They're live pictures of Martyrs Square. The masses want a full withdrawal of Syrian forces. The protest comes a month after the assassination of Lebanon's former prime minister and on the heels of massive pro-Syrian demonstrations last week.

Pope John Paul II is said to be doing well in his first full day back at the Vatican. The pope blessed crowds as he left Gemelli Hospital in a silver Mercedes minivan. Vatican sources are giving the 84-year-old pope a clean bill of health this morning, as good as can be expected of a man his age and medical history.

Michael Jackson's accuser is back on the stand today. He's expected to face a tough cross-examination from defense attorney Tom Mesereau. Last week, the teenager testified he and Jackson drank alcohol together and that Jackson groped him twice. Mesereau said the teen's claims are an attempt to extort money from the pop star.

And a disappointing opening weekend for Mel Gibson's toned-down version of "The Passion of the Christ." Minus six minutes of gore and violence, "The Passion" re-cut took in less than $250,000. You might remember the original grossed some $370 million last year. And maybe everyone has already seen it.

O'BRIEN: There are many people who thought, by watering it down, like you sort of lost the whole point. You know, that many people actually wanted to see all of that gore.

COSTELLO: It took the passion out of "The Passion of the Christ."

O'BRIEN: What did someone say? The enthusiasm of the Christ was a joke that I heard that I had heard. All right, Carol, thanks.

Well, that suspect in the Atlanta courthouse shootings could be charged as early as today. Brian Nichols is believed to be responsible for killing four people on Friday, then taking a 26-year- old single mother hostage in her own home.

More now from Ashley Smith and her night with the gunman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, TAKEN HOSTAGE BY COURTHOUSE SHOOTING SUSPECT: It was about 2:00 in the morning. I left my -- I was leaving my apartment to go to the store. I noticed a blue truck in the parking lot with a man in it pulling up, and he parked in the parking space. And I really didn't think too much about it, because I had just moved into that apartment, you know, two days prior. So, I thought maybe he was a neighbor coming home or something.

So, I left and went to the store. And I came back to my apartment about five minutes later. And the truck was still there, and he was still in it. And it was in a different parking space. It was actually behind one where I had left. So, I pulled back in there.

And I kind of got a little worried then. I thought, 'There's somebody still in that truck.' So, I got my key to my house ready. And I opened up my car door, and I got out and shut it. And I heard his shut right behind me.

I started walking to my door, and I felt really, really scared.

He told me to go into the bathroom, so I went into the bathroom, and he followed me into the bathroom. And he said, "Do you know who I am?" And I said 'No.' Because he had a hat on. And then he took his hat off, and he said, "Now do you know who I am?" And I said, 'Yes, I know who you are. Please don't hurt me. Just please don't hurt me. I have a 5-year-old little girl. Please don't hurt me.'

He said, "I'm not going to hurt you if you just do what I say." I said 'All right.'

So, he told me to get in the bathtub, so I got in the bathtub. And he said, "I really don't feel comfortable around here. I'm going to walk around your house for a few minutes, just so I can get the feel of it." I said, 'OK.' He said, "I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt anybody else. So please don't do anything that's going to make me hurt you."

I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10:00. And I asked him if I could go see her, and he told me no. My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. That if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset. He still told me no. But I could kind of feel that he started to know who I was, and he said maybe. "Maybe I'll let you go. Maybe. We'll see how things go."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Remarkable interview. Well, while in Smith's home, Brian Nichols found himself cornered by SWAT teams and federal agents, and that's when he waved a white towel and gave himself up, ending the largest manhunt in Georgia state history.

Joining us this morning from Lawrenceville, Georgia, is Gwinnett County police chief Charles Walters and Gwinnett County SWAT team commander, Major Bart Hulsey.

Gentlemen, good morning to you. Thanks for being with us. Chief, let's begin with you.

CHIEF CHARLES WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: Good morning.

MAJ. BART HULSEY, GWINNETT COUNTY SWAT TEAM CMDR.: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Did you have any idea where Brian Nichols was before that phone call from Ashley Smith? WALTERS: No, I think it's safe to say no one in Georgia law enforcement at all had any idea of where he was.

O'BRIEN: Then, Major Hulsey, give me a sense of your surprise overall that she essentially single-handedly brought the entire incident to an end.

HULSEY: She's a remarkable lady. I can tell by those interviews that she's given that she thought her way through this. She managed to make a rapport with him and made herself a person, not just an object. And she has an amazing capability for survival. And we're just grateful that it ended the way it did.

O'BRIEN: Chief, I've got to ask you about reports of missteps by law enforcement. First, let's talk about the gun and the deputy who was disarmed, allegedly, by Mr. Nichols. Should the deputies be armed when they're going into a holding pen and getting out a prisoner, who is significantly larger and stronger than they are?

WALTERS: You know, Soledad, being part of the county police, we're not responsible for jail security. And that's something I think that Sheriff Freeman and his staff will look at over and over again and see if there are changes to their procedures and policies. But I don't think it would be fair for me to make a comment about that one way or the other.

O'BRIEN: I understand that, but I'm curious, as a law enforcement official who certainly knows his way in and out of a courtroom, it's one of the questions that many people, of course, are asking today. Should criminals have access to weapons?

WALTERS: I think there has to be a way to -- for the deputies and the court personnel to have control. And I think there has to be an availability of weapons. I don't think you can get away from that.

O'BRIEN: Then there was this confusion over the cars and this videotape. Why were these things not followed up on immediately when Brian Nichols went missing? The green Honda, it turned out, never even left the parking garage. No one really checked the videotape until well after the shootings to see if there was any indication that he might have been on the videotape. Major Hulsey, I'd love you to comment on this. I mean, how many missteps do you think were made by law enforcement in this?

HULSEY: I can't speak to any missteps that was made by any other agency. I can just say that they were getting information out to all of metro Atlanta and, as far as I know, all over Georgia in a very timely fashion. We had photographs and all of the information we needed. They were keeping us constantly updated with lookouts and information that they had.

As a matter of fact, they were looking for him in an area south of our county, in DeKalb County, Friday evening. And that was one of the reasons that we were able to respond as quickly as we did as we thought that if he was in that area that we'd better be prepared that he may move into Gwinnett. So we already put all our people on alert. O'BRIEN: Yes, with all of that communication, though, Chief, I was sort of surprised that they didn't set up any checkpoints and shut down MARTA stations, the public transportation station. Again, do you think that that was a big mistake? Because it's now known that he hopped on a train to get out of the city.

WALTERS: I think now it's known that he hopped on a train. But at the time, you wouldn't have any -- there was no information that led anything towards MARTA, or at least was available to our enforcement agencies. So, I don't know that -- it would have been nice to, you know, when you look back at the incident to say, jeez, if we had have shut down MARTA it would have made a big difference, or if the city police had shut down MARTA or the MARTA police. But there was no information to indicate that he had been on MARTA.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Obviously, hindsight is 2020. What changes now do you think will come out of this?

WALTERS: I think that the organization of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office. And, as I said before, I've got tremendous confidence that they will look at their procedures and make the changes that best suit that situation with their courthouse. I know here in Gwinnett County, our sheriff's office is on top of security. Our security in our courthouse is first-rate, and it's just a question that the judges and the sheriff's deputies from Fulton County or the sheriff's office are going to have to come to an agreement and look at their procedures.

O'BRIEN: Chief Walters and Major Hulsey. Thank you, gentlemen, for talking with us this morning. Appreciate it.

WALTERS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Tonight at 10:00 Eastern, but sure to join Aaron Brown for a special edition of "NEWSNIGHT." It's called "26 Hours: Inside the Atlanta Manhunt" -- Jack.

CAFFERTY: It's time now for a check on the weather.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Another airline hikes ticket prices and blames it on the fuel prices. Andy is going to tell us who it is this time.

CAFFERTY: Jay Leno has won the legal right to make fun of Michael Jackson, but some people think he might have been better off losing this court case. "90-Second Pop" takes a look at that coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Welcome back, everybody. It's time to check in with Jeff Toobin and the "Question of the Day," which is about the death penalty.

Good morning. JEFFERY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Indeed, Brian Nichols is much on everyone's mind. He is, of course, the suspect in Friday's courthouse shootings, and he is likely to face several different charges that carry the death penalty. And the evidence against him at this point certainly seems overwhelming. He's accused of shooting a judge, a court reporter and two law enforcement officers.

Our question today: Do the Atlanta courthouse shootings change your opinion about the death penalty? We're getting a lot of e-mails at am@cnn.com.

The first one we have says -- Robert in Tacoma writes: "No. I think I have always been taught an eye for an eye. I don't see any reason even to have a trial for Mr. Nichols. He should be exterminated like a bug, now, not 10 or 15 years from now, so taxpayers have to keep paying for that piece of dirt."

Jack, you need to just stop using these pseudonyms.

CAFFERTY: True.

TOOBIN: And Robert continues, he says: "Is Ashley going to get the reward?"

A lot of our e-mailers are asking about Ashley, whether she'll get the reward.

O'BRIEN: It's $2,000. Isn't that the reward money?

CAFFERTY: If she doesn't get it, who the heck does it go to?

TOOBIN: Who would? How clear-cut was that?

O'BRIEN: Right.

CAFFERTY: Yes.

TOOBIN: Sal writes: "Why take another life? That will only satisfy our basest instincts and do nothing to prevent another murder like the ones we mourn. I hope the suspect spends the rest of his life in prison. That will surely make society safe from him."

Pam in Indianapolis writes: "My position on the death penalty has not changed simply because there was a bumbling of mistakes made by the Atlanta Police Department. I don't think the death sentence will deter people from trying to escape when they feel an injustice is taking place against them, especially when they are practically given the keys to the cell doors."

And Pamela in Pinckney, Michigan, writes: "The best way to punish someone who commits murder is to take away their rights to roam the country freely, to enjoy life with friends and family, to take away everything that makes life worth living. They deserve to spend the rest of their life thinking about the life they ended.

O'BRIEN: It will be interesting to see if this is a case that actually does sway people. Or, again, if it's like a moral position that you come to over time and that one case or another doesn't really make much of a difference.

TOOBIN: The trend seems to be that most people are not changing their minds, but they're certainly very divided on whether there should be a death penalty.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. Jeff, thanks.

CAFFERTY: All right. Airfares are going to go up again. That and a market forecast, Andy Serwer is here "Minding Your Business."

Good morning.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: I like to bring people the good news. Higher airfares, lower stock prices. We've got all of the good stuff here this morning on CNN.

CAFFERTY: There you go.

SERWER: Stocks were down last week. Higher oil prices and inflation fears sent the Dow, the Nasdaq and the S&P down the rollercoaster and down 77 on Friday alone, the Dow was. Flat for the year. Nasdaq down 6 percent for the year now. Yes, tech stocks continue to be more volatile.

This morning, though, futures are up. A couple of deals are in the works with Altria, the food and cigarette giant, as well as IBM. Some small deals going on there.

And as far as fares go, the company famous for cutting fares is raising them. Southwest Airlines. Say it ain't (ph) so. Not too bad, though. Just a couple dollars each way. And it is a fuel surcharge, but they are matching Northwest's fare increase from last week. Delta, Continental, a whole host of them. And they've got to be able to -- they have to do this, because, you know, the price of fuel is up 50 percent or more over the past year. And they're in such dire shape. Delta is saying that, you know, they're really, again, on the brink this year.

CAFFERTY: Yes, billions they lost last year.

SERWER: Absolutely.

CAFFERTY: Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Well, a brand-new controversy for "American Idol" ahead. A fan favorite is out of the competition, and votes had nothing to do with it. "90-Second Pop" up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: We're rocking out this morning. Hey, good morning once again. It's time for the critically-acclaimed "90-Second Pop" with our AMERICAN MORNING idols. Andy Borowitz from Borowitzreport.com. You don't like that?

TOURE, CNN POP CULTURE CORRESPONDENT: No!

O'BRIEN: I know. That's why I keep repeating it. It makes you all a little uncomfortable, and I like that. Jessica Shaw is from "Entertainment Tonight" -- "Entertainment Tonight?"

JESSICA SHAW, "ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY": Weekly.

O'BRIEN: Weekly. Is there something you want to tell us?

And Toure, CNN's pop culture correspondent. We're off to a strong start, I am happy to say.

TOURE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to it. First, Jay Leno, the gag order is off.

ANDY BOROWITZ, BOROWITZREPORT.COM: Right.

O'BRIEN: It's been lifted. First, let's listen to what he had to say in his monologue. Good stuff. Well...

TOURE: OK, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this morning.

O'BRIEN: Hey, this tape actually had words, believe it or not. He went on. He probably told...

SHAW: And that was funnier than his regular jokes, amazingly

O'BRIEN: And he told about two dozen of these Michael Jackson jokes, one after the other after the other after the other. But, of course, one of the fun things before was that he had had the fill-in hosts like Dennis Miller and Drew Carey and Rosanne filling in for him normally...

BOROWITZ: Right.

O'BRIEN: I thought it worked really well. Do you think it's worse that now he's kind of back to doing his own jokes?

BOROWITZ: Well, you know, I think it was a funny bit for a while, but I think that the bit went on too long. And I can offer proof of that in two words: Carrot Top.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

BOROWITZ: I think once you get to...

O'BRIEN: Scraping?

BOROWITZ: Yes.

(CROSSTALK) BOROWITZ: Once you get to Carrot top, it's kind of over. But I don't know. I mean, I think it was very funny. It was inspired bit while it lasted.

O'BRIEN: Roseanne was very funny. Drew Carey was funny.

SHAW: She was good. We have to live in fear, thought, that Carrot Top gets his own late-night show now.

TOURE: It will happen.

O'BRIEN: It's going to launch his career again.

BOROWITZ: It could. It could.

SHAW: Again.

TOURE: I mean, at this point, anytime you see Michael Jackson, I'm getting, like, nervous and anxious. The whole weekend I was nervous and anxious, because we got Michael Jackson acting a fool on one coast, and the brother in Atlanta acting a fool on the other coast. 50 Cent and The Game aren't helping us out. At this rate, we're going to be back to Africa by September.

O'BRIEN: So overall is it bad for black people?

TOURE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) so you know what you're saying.

TOURE: Yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: Well, we'll see about that. Many people would say, of course, that Michael Jackson is not so black anymore. But I guess that's up for discussion.

BOROWITZ: Carrot Top is not so good for the white man, if it makes you feel any better.

O'BRIEN: Share the pain among everybody, right? Let's move on and talk about "American Idol".

SHAW: The scandal!

O'BRIEN: Mario Vasquez...

SHAW: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... is out.

SHAW: There's a scandal every year on this show. There's someone who is on, like, a kiddie porn site or there's a suspected DUI.

O'BRIEN: There he is.

SHAW: Mario Vasquez, he was really a favorite to win the show, and he dropped out yesterday.

O'BRIEN: Why?

SHAW: We don't know.

O'BRIEN: What did he say?

SHAW: It's very shrouded.

BOROWITZ: Personal reasons.

SHAW: He said it was family reasons.

BOROWITZ: Except that his family doesn't know the reasons. That's a bad sign.

SHAW: It was a very -- yes, his family was informed by the press, actually, that he had dropped out. So, I don't quite know what these family reasons are.

TOURE: Well, he's from the Bronx. So, you know he's not a quitter. And the thing is, like, I think he's seeing that being on "American Idol," you never lose the taint of having been on "American Idol." You can never be bigger than the show. You're always "American Idol's" Ruben Studdard, "American Idol's" Kelly -- you can never grow beyond it.

O'BRIEN: So, do you think it's an intentional manipulation to get bigger than "American Idol?"

TOURE: Well, he knows that he's one of the best singers on that show.

SHAW: Yes.

TOURE: So, if I stick with this, this is a dead-end road.

SHAW: You know what? There is a lot of speculation that he dropped out because maybe he's going to sign a more lucrative recording contract. But you have to believe that 19 Entertainment, the company around the show, that they have signed all of these people, including the finalists from, like, day one to holding deals. So, I don't think he can do anything until the show is over.

BOROWITZ: There's a picture in the "New York Post" of his brother comforting his mother. I just want to say, Vasquez family, pull yourselves together. Come on.

SHAW: And we're with you. We're with you, Vasquez family!

BOROWITZ: Yes.

TOURE: The Vasquez family.

O'BRIEN: It's all going to work out. Let's talk about the music hall -- the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame. TOURE: The Hall of Fame.

O'BRIEN: That's what we, of course, were playing at the very beginning, rocking out this morning.

SHAW: A future where Mario Vasquez will end up, no doubt.

TOURE: Yes, right.

O'BRIEN: Maybe. Buddy Guy, Percy Sledge, the O'Jays, the Pretenders, U2 are being inducted. Anybody you think shouldn't be on this list?

TOURE: Well, no, not at all. I mean, the O'Jays are the ones that I'm most excited about, right? Cinematic funk. Amazing harmony.

O'BRIEN: Best outfits ever!

TOURE: I mean, they did "Backstabbers," right?

O'BRIEN: "Backstab."

TOURE: "They smile in your face." "For the Love of Money, right? "Love Train."

BOROWITZ: Yes.

TOURE: So they're totally -- I mean, perhaps the only one that doesn't belong on the list is U2, not because they're so incredible. They are incredible. But they're still mid-career. You know, it's like putting Randy Johnson in the hall of fame today. Like, he's still got more to do. Or even, say, Kobe, he's got more and more and more to do. So, I mean, where can they go from here?

SHAW: It is pretty amazing...

BOROWITZ: Well, the World Bank. Bono is going to run the World Bank.

O'BRIEN: A whole career change.

BOROWITZ: It's apparently between Bono and Percy Sledge, running the World Bank.

SHAW: It is pretty amazing that in order to be eligible, you have to have been around for 25 years. And that's pretty great that U2 has been around that long.

TOURE: Like, if they had stopped 10 years ago, they'd still be in the hall of fame. So what is the record that puts like -- is it "Joshua Tree," and like, OK, that's it, like they're done now?

O'BRIEN: They're all good.

TOURE: You're just playing for the history books? And The Pretenders, how great are they? Chrissie Hynde and... SHAW: Yes.

O'BRIEN: All good. Congratulations to all of the inductees. I think that's a pretty cool thing. You guys, thank you very much. Look, we ended on a strong note, even though it was a bit of a rough beginning.

BOROWITZ: Let's run that tape again.

O'BRIEN: Thank you, guys, as always. Let's go back to Jack -- Jack.

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Soledad.

Today's top stories straight ahead. Also, the latest on Congress and the baseball steroid hearings. The clock is ticking. Details on today's critical deadline coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

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Aired March 14, 2005 - 07:29   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Bill Hemmer has got the day off. Jack Cafferty is helping us out in that role this morning.
Nice to have you.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: He gets a lot of time off, doesn't he?

O'BRIEN: You know, my husband said that this morning. That guy's always on vacation. How about this woman...

CAFFERTY: It's all right, Bill. You've got nothing to worry about.

O'BRIEN: How about this woman in Atlanta?

CAFFERTY: Unbelievable.

O'BRIEN: Ashley Smith.

CAFFERTY: I mean, it's the most compelling videotape I think I can remember seeing in maybe 20-30, years.

O'BRIEN: Well, her interview...

CAFFERTY: Except maybe the World Trade Center towers coming down. This is amazing stuff.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Well, this, of course, is the woman who was taken hostage by that suspect in the murder rampage. Ashley Smith is now telling her story about how she was first tied up by Brian Nichols and a little bit -- after a little time won his confidence.

CAFFERTY: She talked for about 20 minutes in this interview. We're going to see a good part of that videotape as we move through the next couple of hours. Great stuff.

O'BRIEN: It is pretty amazing.

Before that, though, let's right get to the headlines. And Carol Costello is helping us out.

Good morning.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to both of you. Good morning to all of you.

"Now in the News."

Thousands are gathering in Beirut, Lebanon, right now for an anti-Syrian protest. Take a look at these pictures. They're live pictures of Martyrs Square. The masses want a full withdrawal of Syrian forces. The protest comes a month after the assassination of Lebanon's former prime minister and on the heels of massive pro-Syrian demonstrations last week.

Pope John Paul II is said to be doing well in his first full day back at the Vatican. The pope blessed crowds as he left Gemelli Hospital in a silver Mercedes minivan. Vatican sources are giving the 84-year-old pope a clean bill of health this morning, as good as can be expected of a man his age and medical history.

Michael Jackson's accuser is back on the stand today. He's expected to face a tough cross-examination from defense attorney Tom Mesereau. Last week, the teenager testified he and Jackson drank alcohol together and that Jackson groped him twice. Mesereau said the teen's claims are an attempt to extort money from the pop star.

And a disappointing opening weekend for Mel Gibson's toned-down version of "The Passion of the Christ." Minus six minutes of gore and violence, "The Passion" re-cut took in less than $250,000. You might remember the original grossed some $370 million last year. And maybe everyone has already seen it.

O'BRIEN: There are many people who thought, by watering it down, like you sort of lost the whole point. You know, that many people actually wanted to see all of that gore.

COSTELLO: It took the passion out of "The Passion of the Christ."

O'BRIEN: What did someone say? The enthusiasm of the Christ was a joke that I heard that I had heard. All right, Carol, thanks.

Well, that suspect in the Atlanta courthouse shootings could be charged as early as today. Brian Nichols is believed to be responsible for killing four people on Friday, then taking a 26-year- old single mother hostage in her own home.

More now from Ashley Smith and her night with the gunman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, TAKEN HOSTAGE BY COURTHOUSE SHOOTING SUSPECT: It was about 2:00 in the morning. I left my -- I was leaving my apartment to go to the store. I noticed a blue truck in the parking lot with a man in it pulling up, and he parked in the parking space. And I really didn't think too much about it, because I had just moved into that apartment, you know, two days prior. So, I thought maybe he was a neighbor coming home or something.

So, I left and went to the store. And I came back to my apartment about five minutes later. And the truck was still there, and he was still in it. And it was in a different parking space. It was actually behind one where I had left. So, I pulled back in there.

And I kind of got a little worried then. I thought, 'There's somebody still in that truck.' So, I got my key to my house ready. And I opened up my car door, and I got out and shut it. And I heard his shut right behind me.

I started walking to my door, and I felt really, really scared.

He told me to go into the bathroom, so I went into the bathroom, and he followed me into the bathroom. And he said, "Do you know who I am?" And I said 'No.' Because he had a hat on. And then he took his hat off, and he said, "Now do you know who I am?" And I said, 'Yes, I know who you are. Please don't hurt me. Just please don't hurt me. I have a 5-year-old little girl. Please don't hurt me.'

He said, "I'm not going to hurt you if you just do what I say." I said 'All right.'

So, he told me to get in the bathtub, so I got in the bathtub. And he said, "I really don't feel comfortable around here. I'm going to walk around your house for a few minutes, just so I can get the feel of it." I said, 'OK.' He said, "I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to hurt anybody else. So please don't do anything that's going to make me hurt you."

I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10:00. And I asked him if I could go see her, and he told me no. My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning. That if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset. He still told me no. But I could kind of feel that he started to know who I was, and he said maybe. "Maybe I'll let you go. Maybe. We'll see how things go."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Remarkable interview. Well, while in Smith's home, Brian Nichols found himself cornered by SWAT teams and federal agents, and that's when he waved a white towel and gave himself up, ending the largest manhunt in Georgia state history.

Joining us this morning from Lawrenceville, Georgia, is Gwinnett County police chief Charles Walters and Gwinnett County SWAT team commander, Major Bart Hulsey.

Gentlemen, good morning to you. Thanks for being with us. Chief, let's begin with you.

CHIEF CHARLES WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: Good morning.

MAJ. BART HULSEY, GWINNETT COUNTY SWAT TEAM CMDR.: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Did you have any idea where Brian Nichols was before that phone call from Ashley Smith? WALTERS: No, I think it's safe to say no one in Georgia law enforcement at all had any idea of where he was.

O'BRIEN: Then, Major Hulsey, give me a sense of your surprise overall that she essentially single-handedly brought the entire incident to an end.

HULSEY: She's a remarkable lady. I can tell by those interviews that she's given that she thought her way through this. She managed to make a rapport with him and made herself a person, not just an object. And she has an amazing capability for survival. And we're just grateful that it ended the way it did.

O'BRIEN: Chief, I've got to ask you about reports of missteps by law enforcement. First, let's talk about the gun and the deputy who was disarmed, allegedly, by Mr. Nichols. Should the deputies be armed when they're going into a holding pen and getting out a prisoner, who is significantly larger and stronger than they are?

WALTERS: You know, Soledad, being part of the county police, we're not responsible for jail security. And that's something I think that Sheriff Freeman and his staff will look at over and over again and see if there are changes to their procedures and policies. But I don't think it would be fair for me to make a comment about that one way or the other.

O'BRIEN: I understand that, but I'm curious, as a law enforcement official who certainly knows his way in and out of a courtroom, it's one of the questions that many people, of course, are asking today. Should criminals have access to weapons?

WALTERS: I think there has to be a way to -- for the deputies and the court personnel to have control. And I think there has to be an availability of weapons. I don't think you can get away from that.

O'BRIEN: Then there was this confusion over the cars and this videotape. Why were these things not followed up on immediately when Brian Nichols went missing? The green Honda, it turned out, never even left the parking garage. No one really checked the videotape until well after the shootings to see if there was any indication that he might have been on the videotape. Major Hulsey, I'd love you to comment on this. I mean, how many missteps do you think were made by law enforcement in this?

HULSEY: I can't speak to any missteps that was made by any other agency. I can just say that they were getting information out to all of metro Atlanta and, as far as I know, all over Georgia in a very timely fashion. We had photographs and all of the information we needed. They were keeping us constantly updated with lookouts and information that they had.

As a matter of fact, they were looking for him in an area south of our county, in DeKalb County, Friday evening. And that was one of the reasons that we were able to respond as quickly as we did as we thought that if he was in that area that we'd better be prepared that he may move into Gwinnett. So we already put all our people on alert. O'BRIEN: Yes, with all of that communication, though, Chief, I was sort of surprised that they didn't set up any checkpoints and shut down MARTA stations, the public transportation station. Again, do you think that that was a big mistake? Because it's now known that he hopped on a train to get out of the city.

WALTERS: I think now it's known that he hopped on a train. But at the time, you wouldn't have any -- there was no information that led anything towards MARTA, or at least was available to our enforcement agencies. So, I don't know that -- it would have been nice to, you know, when you look back at the incident to say, jeez, if we had have shut down MARTA it would have made a big difference, or if the city police had shut down MARTA or the MARTA police. But there was no information to indicate that he had been on MARTA.

O'BRIEN: Yes. Obviously, hindsight is 2020. What changes now do you think will come out of this?

WALTERS: I think that the organization of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office. And, as I said before, I've got tremendous confidence that they will look at their procedures and make the changes that best suit that situation with their courthouse. I know here in Gwinnett County, our sheriff's office is on top of security. Our security in our courthouse is first-rate, and it's just a question that the judges and the sheriff's deputies from Fulton County or the sheriff's office are going to have to come to an agreement and look at their procedures.

O'BRIEN: Chief Walters and Major Hulsey. Thank you, gentlemen, for talking with us this morning. Appreciate it.

WALTERS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Tonight at 10:00 Eastern, but sure to join Aaron Brown for a special edition of "NEWSNIGHT." It's called "26 Hours: Inside the Atlanta Manhunt" -- Jack.

CAFFERTY: It's time now for a check on the weather.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Another airline hikes ticket prices and blames it on the fuel prices. Andy is going to tell us who it is this time.

CAFFERTY: Jay Leno has won the legal right to make fun of Michael Jackson, but some people think he might have been better off losing this court case. "90-Second Pop" takes a look at that coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Welcome back, everybody. It's time to check in with Jeff Toobin and the "Question of the Day," which is about the death penalty.

Good morning. JEFFERY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Indeed, Brian Nichols is much on everyone's mind. He is, of course, the suspect in Friday's courthouse shootings, and he is likely to face several different charges that carry the death penalty. And the evidence against him at this point certainly seems overwhelming. He's accused of shooting a judge, a court reporter and two law enforcement officers.

Our question today: Do the Atlanta courthouse shootings change your opinion about the death penalty? We're getting a lot of e-mails at am@cnn.com.

The first one we have says -- Robert in Tacoma writes: "No. I think I have always been taught an eye for an eye. I don't see any reason even to have a trial for Mr. Nichols. He should be exterminated like a bug, now, not 10 or 15 years from now, so taxpayers have to keep paying for that piece of dirt."

Jack, you need to just stop using these pseudonyms.

CAFFERTY: True.

TOOBIN: And Robert continues, he says: "Is Ashley going to get the reward?"

A lot of our e-mailers are asking about Ashley, whether she'll get the reward.

O'BRIEN: It's $2,000. Isn't that the reward money?

CAFFERTY: If she doesn't get it, who the heck does it go to?

TOOBIN: Who would? How clear-cut was that?

O'BRIEN: Right.

CAFFERTY: Yes.

TOOBIN: Sal writes: "Why take another life? That will only satisfy our basest instincts and do nothing to prevent another murder like the ones we mourn. I hope the suspect spends the rest of his life in prison. That will surely make society safe from him."

Pam in Indianapolis writes: "My position on the death penalty has not changed simply because there was a bumbling of mistakes made by the Atlanta Police Department. I don't think the death sentence will deter people from trying to escape when they feel an injustice is taking place against them, especially when they are practically given the keys to the cell doors."

And Pamela in Pinckney, Michigan, writes: "The best way to punish someone who commits murder is to take away their rights to roam the country freely, to enjoy life with friends and family, to take away everything that makes life worth living. They deserve to spend the rest of their life thinking about the life they ended.

O'BRIEN: It will be interesting to see if this is a case that actually does sway people. Or, again, if it's like a moral position that you come to over time and that one case or another doesn't really make much of a difference.

TOOBIN: The trend seems to be that most people are not changing their minds, but they're certainly very divided on whether there should be a death penalty.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. Jeff, thanks.

CAFFERTY: All right. Airfares are going to go up again. That and a market forecast, Andy Serwer is here "Minding Your Business."

Good morning.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: I like to bring people the good news. Higher airfares, lower stock prices. We've got all of the good stuff here this morning on CNN.

CAFFERTY: There you go.

SERWER: Stocks were down last week. Higher oil prices and inflation fears sent the Dow, the Nasdaq and the S&P down the rollercoaster and down 77 on Friday alone, the Dow was. Flat for the year. Nasdaq down 6 percent for the year now. Yes, tech stocks continue to be more volatile.

This morning, though, futures are up. A couple of deals are in the works with Altria, the food and cigarette giant, as well as IBM. Some small deals going on there.

And as far as fares go, the company famous for cutting fares is raising them. Southwest Airlines. Say it ain't (ph) so. Not too bad, though. Just a couple dollars each way. And it is a fuel surcharge, but they are matching Northwest's fare increase from last week. Delta, Continental, a whole host of them. And they've got to be able to -- they have to do this, because, you know, the price of fuel is up 50 percent or more over the past year. And they're in such dire shape. Delta is saying that, you know, they're really, again, on the brink this year.

CAFFERTY: Yes, billions they lost last year.

SERWER: Absolutely.

CAFFERTY: Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Well, a brand-new controversy for "American Idol" ahead. A fan favorite is out of the competition, and votes had nothing to do with it. "90-Second Pop" up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: We're rocking out this morning. Hey, good morning once again. It's time for the critically-acclaimed "90-Second Pop" with our AMERICAN MORNING idols. Andy Borowitz from Borowitzreport.com. You don't like that?

TOURE, CNN POP CULTURE CORRESPONDENT: No!

O'BRIEN: I know. That's why I keep repeating it. It makes you all a little uncomfortable, and I like that. Jessica Shaw is from "Entertainment Tonight" -- "Entertainment Tonight?"

JESSICA SHAW, "ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY": Weekly.

O'BRIEN: Weekly. Is there something you want to tell us?

And Toure, CNN's pop culture correspondent. We're off to a strong start, I am happy to say.

TOURE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to it. First, Jay Leno, the gag order is off.

ANDY BOROWITZ, BOROWITZREPORT.COM: Right.

O'BRIEN: It's been lifted. First, let's listen to what he had to say in his monologue. Good stuff. Well...

TOURE: OK, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this morning.

O'BRIEN: Hey, this tape actually had words, believe it or not. He went on. He probably told...

SHAW: And that was funnier than his regular jokes, amazingly

O'BRIEN: And he told about two dozen of these Michael Jackson jokes, one after the other after the other after the other. But, of course, one of the fun things before was that he had had the fill-in hosts like Dennis Miller and Drew Carey and Rosanne filling in for him normally...

BOROWITZ: Right.

O'BRIEN: I thought it worked really well. Do you think it's worse that now he's kind of back to doing his own jokes?

BOROWITZ: Well, you know, I think it was a funny bit for a while, but I think that the bit went on too long. And I can offer proof of that in two words: Carrot Top.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

BOROWITZ: I think once you get to...

O'BRIEN: Scraping?

BOROWITZ: Yes.

(CROSSTALK) BOROWITZ: Once you get to Carrot top, it's kind of over. But I don't know. I mean, I think it was very funny. It was inspired bit while it lasted.

O'BRIEN: Roseanne was very funny. Drew Carey was funny.

SHAW: She was good. We have to live in fear, thought, that Carrot Top gets his own late-night show now.

TOURE: It will happen.

O'BRIEN: It's going to launch his career again.

BOROWITZ: It could. It could.

SHAW: Again.

TOURE: I mean, at this point, anytime you see Michael Jackson, I'm getting, like, nervous and anxious. The whole weekend I was nervous and anxious, because we got Michael Jackson acting a fool on one coast, and the brother in Atlanta acting a fool on the other coast. 50 Cent and The Game aren't helping us out. At this rate, we're going to be back to Africa by September.

O'BRIEN: So overall is it bad for black people?

TOURE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) so you know what you're saying.

TOURE: Yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: Well, we'll see about that. Many people would say, of course, that Michael Jackson is not so black anymore. But I guess that's up for discussion.

BOROWITZ: Carrot Top is not so good for the white man, if it makes you feel any better.

O'BRIEN: Share the pain among everybody, right? Let's move on and talk about "American Idol".

SHAW: The scandal!

O'BRIEN: Mario Vasquez...

SHAW: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... is out.

SHAW: There's a scandal every year on this show. There's someone who is on, like, a kiddie porn site or there's a suspected DUI.

O'BRIEN: There he is.

SHAW: Mario Vasquez, he was really a favorite to win the show, and he dropped out yesterday.

O'BRIEN: Why?

SHAW: We don't know.

O'BRIEN: What did he say?

SHAW: It's very shrouded.

BOROWITZ: Personal reasons.

SHAW: He said it was family reasons.

BOROWITZ: Except that his family doesn't know the reasons. That's a bad sign.

SHAW: It was a very -- yes, his family was informed by the press, actually, that he had dropped out. So, I don't quite know what these family reasons are.

TOURE: Well, he's from the Bronx. So, you know he's not a quitter. And the thing is, like, I think he's seeing that being on "American Idol," you never lose the taint of having been on "American Idol." You can never be bigger than the show. You're always "American Idol's" Ruben Studdard, "American Idol's" Kelly -- you can never grow beyond it.

O'BRIEN: So, do you think it's an intentional manipulation to get bigger than "American Idol?"

TOURE: Well, he knows that he's one of the best singers on that show.

SHAW: Yes.

TOURE: So, if I stick with this, this is a dead-end road.

SHAW: You know what? There is a lot of speculation that he dropped out because maybe he's going to sign a more lucrative recording contract. But you have to believe that 19 Entertainment, the company around the show, that they have signed all of these people, including the finalists from, like, day one to holding deals. So, I don't think he can do anything until the show is over.

BOROWITZ: There's a picture in the "New York Post" of his brother comforting his mother. I just want to say, Vasquez family, pull yourselves together. Come on.

SHAW: And we're with you. We're with you, Vasquez family!

BOROWITZ: Yes.

TOURE: The Vasquez family.

O'BRIEN: It's all going to work out. Let's talk about the music hall -- the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame. TOURE: The Hall of Fame.

O'BRIEN: That's what we, of course, were playing at the very beginning, rocking out this morning.

SHAW: A future where Mario Vasquez will end up, no doubt.

TOURE: Yes, right.

O'BRIEN: Maybe. Buddy Guy, Percy Sledge, the O'Jays, the Pretenders, U2 are being inducted. Anybody you think shouldn't be on this list?

TOURE: Well, no, not at all. I mean, the O'Jays are the ones that I'm most excited about, right? Cinematic funk. Amazing harmony.

O'BRIEN: Best outfits ever!

TOURE: I mean, they did "Backstabbers," right?

O'BRIEN: "Backstab."

TOURE: "They smile in your face." "For the Love of Money, right? "Love Train."

BOROWITZ: Yes.

TOURE: So they're totally -- I mean, perhaps the only one that doesn't belong on the list is U2, not because they're so incredible. They are incredible. But they're still mid-career. You know, it's like putting Randy Johnson in the hall of fame today. Like, he's still got more to do. Or even, say, Kobe, he's got more and more and more to do. So, I mean, where can they go from here?

SHAW: It is pretty amazing...

BOROWITZ: Well, the World Bank. Bono is going to run the World Bank.

O'BRIEN: A whole career change.

BOROWITZ: It's apparently between Bono and Percy Sledge, running the World Bank.

SHAW: It is pretty amazing that in order to be eligible, you have to have been around for 25 years. And that's pretty great that U2 has been around that long.

TOURE: Like, if they had stopped 10 years ago, they'd still be in the hall of fame. So what is the record that puts like -- is it "Joshua Tree," and like, OK, that's it, like they're done now?

O'BRIEN: They're all good.

TOURE: You're just playing for the history books? And The Pretenders, how great are they? Chrissie Hynde and... SHAW: Yes.

O'BRIEN: All good. Congratulations to all of the inductees. I think that's a pretty cool thing. You guys, thank you very much. Look, we ended on a strong note, even though it was a bit of a rough beginning.

BOROWITZ: Let's run that tape again.

O'BRIEN: Thank you, guys, as always. Let's go back to Jack -- Jack.

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Soledad.

Today's top stories straight ahead. Also, the latest on Congress and the baseball steroid hearings. The clock is ticking. Details on today's critical deadline coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

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