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American Morning
Terri Schiavo Saga; Vatican Concern; Families and Alcoholism
Aired March 31, 2005 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Seeing Terri Schiavo and hearing her as never before. Videotapes used to answer the most fundamental questions in the Schiavo matter. What questions do they answer for us this morning?
And new setbacks for those fighting to keep Terri Schiavo alive, told to stay away from her bedside and rejected again by the U.S. Supreme Court. Is the battle ending on this AMERICAN MORNING?
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Good morning, everyone. Third hour starting now. Soledad is on vacation this week. Kyra Phillips here in New York City to help us out.
Great to see you.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Great to see you. And a beautiful day it is.
HEMMER: Good morning. Thank you for that. Giving you all the credit.
PHILLIPS: Well, your whole crew is amazing.
That's right, Soledad is off. Good morning, everyone.
We're going to get right back to Pinellas Park, Florida, in just a minute for the latest developments in the Terri Schiavo case. We're going to look at these new videotapes that were released last night. Also talk about a Supreme Court order that may put an end to the legal battles.
All that's coming up.
HEMMER: And an awful lot to talk about again today on that story.
Also, from Red Lake, Minnesota, the school shooting. One student has been arrested, we know that. But was there a wider conspiracy at work? "The New York Times" some exclusive reporting on this today. We'll talk to the reporter on the scene for the "Times" watching that investigation . And here are countless questions still in northern Minnesota there.
Back to Jack also. What's on your mind?
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Sweeping ruling by the Supreme Court that says that if you're over 40, you can sue the company you work for, for age discrimination, even if there's no evidence of intentional age discrimination for to you base your case on. It will change the rules for a lot of people who have experience in the workplace and don't feel like they're getting a fair shake.
The "Question of the Day" is, do companies discriminate based on age? AM@CNN.com is the e-mail address. We'll read some letters.
HEMMER: Substantial ruling, too. Jack, thanks.
While you were talking, there's breaking news at Pinellas Park. Brother Paul O'Donnell is back at the microphone, a spokesperson for two weeks now with the family. Let's drop in here and listen and see if we can pick anything out of this.
BROTHER PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: Bobby and Suzanne want to be at their sister's side as she dies. This is -- this is her final hours.
They have told the police they would be willing to be in the room with Michael Schiavo, and they're begging, begging to go in and see Terri and be with her in these last hours. They have placed calls to the attorneys. They have pleaded with Michael. They have a mediator who will facilitate things to keep things calm and peaceful.
But right now the family is requesting that they be allowed to be at Terri's bedside, and they're being denied. And as you can imagine, they are very, very, very upset. So as they play out this emotional struggle, please understand that they want to be at her bedside and they're being denied by Michael Schiavo.
QUESTION: Have they been told that that's their final visit? Is that what the police said?
O'DONNELL: The family is told nothing. For the last 14 days, the family is told nothing. They are given nothing.
They are pleading to be at Terri's bedside. She may die within the next couple hours. They want to remain in there even if it's just to sit in a chair next to Michael Schiavo.
This is a family that's known Terri for 41 years, her mother, her father, her brother and sister. At least some members of the family, Terri's blood family, are requesting to be at her side.
Thank you.
HEMMER: That was Brother Paul O'Donnell there at the microphone in Pinellas Park outside the hospice. A couple things he's saying there, and quite graphically, too.
This is her final hours, according to brother Paul. She may die in the next couple of hours. And now begging, the family is, meaning the parents of Terri Schiavo, to be allowed by her bedside inside that hospice. There was movement again last night by the family requesting this, and apparently they were rejected upon that request.
Bob Franken's outside the hospice, can explain why.
Bob, good morning there.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bill, what we're seeing is the manifestation of the sadly bitter fight between the blood relatives of Terri Schiavo and her husband, who, as her guardian, is the one who ordered that the feeding tube be removed. And that, of course, has become the subject of this intensely bitter fight that has been going on.
We've witnessed the blood relatives. When they've been given permission by Michael Schiavo to go in, they have gone in, they've come out. This time when they left, the sister of Terri Schiavo, Suzanne Vitadamo, and her brother, Bobby Schindler, came out. And unlike most times, when they will stop and talk to reporters, they raced past the cameras.
Suzanne -- Suzanne Vitadamo had a tear in her eye. And what we had there was an explanation about what was causing it.
By all accounts, Terri Schiavo is in her last hours. She's expected soon to lose -- to lose her life. This, of course, has been something that's been going on for almost two weeks. And most specialists will tell you that's about the time span that is involved.
For an indication of it, we have Father Frank Pavone, who talked to Bill, talked to you earlier this morning. Subsequent to that, went in, and he came out to tell us that Terri Schiavo was deteriorating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FATHER FRANK PAVONE, SCHINDLER FAMILY SUPPORTER: We just prayed a rosary together. She's, from what I can tell, considerably weaker than when I saw her about eight hours ago. And still, I would describe her as distressed. She's breathing rapidly, shallowly, and her eyes are more sunken than they were even eight hours ago.
QUESTION: How is the visit going between Suzanne and Bobby and Terri? What are they doing there?
PAVONE: Just sitting there praying, holding her hand, stroking her hair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: And Bill, of course we've been reporting on this for the better part of two weeks. And it has been a story that has involved the institutions of government and the legal system. But at its heart this is a very human tragedy -- Bill.
HEMMER: Bob, just to be clear here, Michael Schiavo's the gatekeeper essentially, right? He has the authority to say who can and who cannot go in that room?
FRANKEN: He is the guardian. And it's been the subject of so much legislative discussion whether there should be some change in that, discussion that possibly the governor could take custody and turn it over to the blood relatives. But all of that has been rebuffed. He is the one who makes the decisions.
HEMMER: And do you know, Bob, have the parents ever number the room with Michael Schiavo at the same time?
FRANKEN: Certainly not for some time. And that has been on the demand of Michael Schiavo. And that is, of course, what Brother O'Donnell was just speaking about a moment ago.
He is pleading on behalf of the family for an exception so they, too, can be there when she dies. And thus far, Michael Schiavo, who has argued that it would just be awkward, has said no.
HEMMER: All right. Bob, thanks for that. Stand by in Pinellas Park.
We're watching also these videotapes never before seen by the public. This is Terri Schiavo with her mother, with her doctors, going back to the summer of 2002. There were 11 videotapes apparently. And nine of the 11 have been released by the Pinellas Count Probate Court coming out late last night.
The other two are still sealed by the court, but no explanation given at this point as to why the other two have not been released. Perhaps they reveal more, or perhaps less about Terri Schiavo's condition.
I want to get to Sanjay right now at the CNN Center.
You've been watching and listening to these tapes now for about 12 hours.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
HEMMER: Your assessment is what, Sanjay?
GUPTA: Well, you know, obviously, these tapes have not been seen before by us. So they do give us some more insights into what some of the people have been basing their judgments on.
Of those tapes, Bill, I looked at several of them. The doctors, the exams, as well, watching those neurologists examine Terri.
I can't make any conclusion just by looking at a videotape, and nobody probably should. But what's startling to me and sort of striking is that these doctors sort of get very similar exams, but arrived at very different conclusions as to what the state that she's in and her prognosis.
That's Dr. Hamisfar (ph) examining her now. You can listen in. He believes that she's not in a persistent vegetative state. Trying to determine whether or not she's following commands. They're actually moving her leg when he asks her to. You can draw your own conclusions as you watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Now, let me just tell you as you're watching this as well, Bill, oftentimes the leg is in a spastic state here, meaning it's very stiff. You notice Dr. Hamisfar (ph) sort of pushing it down and then it coming back up.
He's saying, "Good." Does that mean that he thinks that she was following a command, or was the leg just doing what it otherwise normally would have?
You can see some of the confusion here, Bill. Again, these are just videotapes. We're getting a very small glimpse. And I caution anybody not to draw any conclusions based on the state that she's in now.
But, you know, it's very interesting to watch these sort of behind-the-scenes look at these exams, what the doctors based their conclusions on. You're seeing them for the first time right here.
HEMMER: Sanjay, based on what I understand, five neurologists have examined her? Is that right?
GUPTA: Well, five court-appointed neurologists, right.
HEMMER: OK. And among those court-appointed neurologists, all five have not concluded what they definitively believe about her condition. Is that right?
GUPTA: Two said she's not in a persistent vegetative state. And three said she was in a persistent vegetative state.
HEMMER: Well, then, as a neurosurgeon yourself, is that a suggestion ultimately how complex the human brain can be and how difficult it is to ultimately understand?
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely, Bill. And I'd even go a step further and say, you know, this -- for as much as we know about the science of the brain, there's a lot that we don't know as well. And that's what makes it so interesting to a certain extent.
But also, I think that, you know, with regards to most families, most patients, they sort of understand that there aren't absolutes here. We talked about the islands of consciousness before. People might have intermittent consciousness even in a persistent vegetative state.
That's striking to a lot of people. But I think it's the legal system, it's this system, this attention on this case that has focused people trying to make an absolute out of something where there really is not -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right. Don't go far, Sanjay. We'll come back to you there at the CNN Center.
GUPTA: All right.
HEMMER: Back to Kelly Wallace now with the headlines for this hour.
Good morning, Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Bill. Very busy news morning here. Here are some of the other stories "Now in the News."
A CNN "Security Watch" for you. A presidential commission finding U.S. intelligence was dead wrong in its assessments of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. The panel formally presents its findings to President Bush this morning. And we will hear from the president on the final report at 11:40 a.m. Eastern. Of course, CNN will carry that live.
And be sure to stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
Three Romanian journalists and a U.S. citizen have been abducted in Iraq. The U.S. now calling for their immediate release.
The Al-Jazeera network broadcast video showing who it says are the three Romanians and an unidentified fourth person. It is not known if that fourth person is the missing American.
In California, jurors in the Michael Jackson trial hearing from the man who first told authorities about the molestation claims. A psychologist who interviewed Jackson's accuser taking the stand, testifying it would be extremely rare for the boy to make false allegations.
Jackson has denied the charges against him. The trial is in recess today in observance of a California holiday, Cesar Chavez Day.
And news about former President Bill Clinton. He's expected to make his first public appearance in more than two weeks.
The former president will accept the Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Humanitarian Award in Washington later today. He is being honored for his work to promote HIV and AIDS awareness. And, of course, he was in the hospital earlier this month. So first time we'll see him since then.
HEMMER: All right. Thanks, Kelly.
WALLACE: Sure. PHILLIPS: Well, Pope John Paul II did not make a public appearance today. The last two times he did, he tried to speak but couldn't. Now there's word that the wisdom of his public appearances is being questioned privately inside the Vatican.
CNN Vatican analyst John Allen joins us now live from Rome.
John, let's talk about the fact that he's being asked possibly by his advisers not to be seen in public. But this is a man who has based his whole life and his whole mission about suffering. So is it about strength or is it about spectacle?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Kyra. Well, that's exactly the debate that I think is unfolding here in Rome in these days. And this debate actually has been going on in subterranean form inside the Vatican for some time. But what is unusual now is that the recent public appearances, where the pope has so visibly been in pain, been in distress, appeared weakened, and obviously now twice in a row been physically unable to speak despite his best efforts, have sort of forced that discussion out into full public view.
In the Italian papers today, two editors of the -- two of the most influential Catholic publications in this country that certainly speak for constituencies inside the Vatican, as well as outside, are publicly debating this question. And the issue is, when the pope appears in public so weakened, so emaciated, is that a powerful testimony to hope and the dignity of human life, or is that making a media spectacle out of his own suffering? And does it risk obscuring the central Christian point, which, after all, is not about the suffering of the pope, it's about the suffering of Christ and what it meant for humanity?
And so I think this debate, which, as I say, has been going on for some time, now as a front-burner matter here as the pope's public appearances do seem so pained, so difficult for many of us to watch.
PHILLIPS: Well, and I want to ask you, quickly, John, about his condition with the tube. Right now receiving nutrition through a nasal tube. Now there's talk possibly he might receive one like Terri Schiavo's, one through the stomach, which would be more of a permanent type of tube. What do you know about that?
ALLEN: Well, I spoke this morning with a senior Vatican official on background who indicated that at the moment that there is no present plan to insert that abdominal tube, which you rightly say would have to be inserted surgically, but would be a Terri Schiavo- style tube. Obviously they're hoping that the feeding through the nasal tube will be enough to beef up his caloric intake so that it doesn't come to that.
Ultimately, the risk here is that you can't use that nasal tube terribly long, and that he's going to need to recover his own capacity to take in calories. If that doesn't happen, then they might have to go to the surgical tube.
The other point we can add is that Vatican officials told us this morning that at least as of today this are no present plans to take him back to the hospital, denying some media speculation to that effect. But on the other hand, Kyra, I think the thing we have to say is that when you're talking about an elderly person with multiple health problems, you know, you simply don't know what tomorrow is going to bring.
And in such an atmosphere, obviously that's going to invite all kinds of speculation. At the moment, the Vatican is doing everything it possibly can to try and rein some of that in.
PHILLIPS: Well, I don't think there's any argument when you say that the pope is a very strong man mentally and spiritually.
John Allen live from Rome. Thank you so much.
Well, let's check in on weather. Chad Myers at the CNN Center with the latest forecast.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: Let's get a break here in a moment. There is a new headline in the Terri Schiavo case. We just heard from a family spokesperson coming to the microphone in Florida saying she's now in her final hours. We will not leave that story for long. Back to that in a moment.
Also, back to Minnesota. More on the school shooting. Was there a plot there to attack other targets? A closer look with a reporter on the scene in a moment.
PHILLIPS: And Senator Ted Kennedy's ex-wife found lying in the street unconscious. A former politician who knows of similar heartache firsthand joins us next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: The ex-wife of Senator Ted Kennedy now recovering in a Boston hospital this morning. Joan Kennedy was found by a passerby unconscious on a Boston street just a few blocks from her home. She suffering from a concussion and apparently a broken shoulder as well.
The good Samaritan says Kennedy did not appear to be intoxicated. But it's been reported in recent months that Kennedy has had relapses with alcohol. The question this morning is, what can family members do in a situation like this?
Former Senator George McGovern knows the problem firsthand. He's the author of a book about his own daughter, Terry, and her long battle with alcoholism which ended in her death back in 1994. From Sioux Falls, South Dakota, the senator is with me this morning.
And good morning to you, and thank you for your time.
GEORGE MCGOVERN, FMR. U.S. SENATOR: Good morning.
HEMMER: When you hear about Joe Kennedy -- Joan Kennedy's story, rather, can you draw similarities looking back on your own situation with your daughter?
MCGOVERN: Well, I don't know the circumstances, of course, of this recent problem with Joan, but it's well publicized that she has had a problem with alcohol for a number of years.
I first met her 40 years ago. I thought she was one of the loveliest creatures I'd ever witnessed. I still think so 40 years later. But like my daughter, and like 20 million other Americans today, she has suffered from the disease of alcoholism.
So of course my heart goes out to the family and to Joan. I hope for the best.
This is a very difficult affliction to hit anyone. And it doesn't respect us in terms of whether we're rich or poor, young or old, wise or foolish it. It can hit any family and any person. And once that addiction takes hold of an individual, they're in for a long time of trouble.
HEMMER: How often, or did you ever believe that your daughter was clean and out of the woods?
MCGOVERN: Well, she was in every treatment program that we could get her into. She went through counseling. She went to the AA meetings. The last four years of her life, where she lived in Madison, Wisconsin, she was in and out of the Talurian Treatment Center (ph) some 68 times.
HEMMER: Wow.
MCGOVERN: It makes me shudder even yet to think of this marvelous young woman, which she was, an intelligent, sensitive, caring, witty individual -- everyone loved her -- the same characteristics that I associate with Joan Kennedy. It's interesting that Abraham Lincoln, almost 150 years ago, said a strange fact. The inebriates among us are frequently the most sensitive, the most compassionate and the most intelligent of our kind. This is characteristic of this illness.
HEMMER: I've heard that before. And the other thing I've heard about when it comes to alcoholism is that there's a strong possibility that this could be genetic as well.
Can you still hear me OK there in South Dakota? I'll wait for a second here and let you put that back in, Senator.
Here's my point. A lot of doctors will conclude that this could be a genetic factor here, handed down from parents. How do families deal with the possibility of guilt when it comes to that?
MCGOVERN: Well, it is a possibility that heredity is a factor. The gene structure that we inherit at birth can, I suppose, make us vulnerable to addiction. Most people can take a drink or two, myself included, and have no problem. But an alcoholic can't do that.
If they drink a spoonful, they're going to drink all the booze that's left in the room until it's gone. This is the characteristic of the disease.
Families suffer enormously in the presence of an alcoholic because it's so disruptive of their lives. And if it's someone that you love deeply, as the Kennedy family did Joan Kennedy, and continues to love her, it's very painful to see a marvelous person like that have their lives disrupted so painfully by this illness.
You know, we lost 3,000 innocent Americans in the 9/11 tragedy in New York. We lose 35 times that many every year in this country from alcoholism.
A hundred thousand people just lay down and die from this illness every year. Some of them very young. Some in middle years, some older. But it's a fatal disease if you can't find some way to get on top of it.
So my prayers and my hope and my affection is that if this was an alcohol-related incident with Joan, that she'll recover from that and get back on the road to a recovered life.
HEMMER: Our thought, too. And thank you, Senator, for shedding light on this, this morning for us. George McGovern in Sioux Falls.
A tense atmosphere outside of Terri Schiavo's hospice in Florida. One family supporter now saying that Schiavo is in her final hours. And her family is being denied the right to be by her side.
Back to Florida and those stories when we continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: He's warmed up. He's feeling good. It's 9:30. Jack Cafferty is smiling.
CAFFERTY: I am?
PHILLIPS: OK. You were two seconds ago.
CAFFERTY: The United States Supreme court -- when does Soledad get back?
HEMMER: Monday.
CAFFERTY: Monday, OK. Carol's here tomorrow?
HEMMER: Carol.
CAFFERTY: OK.
The U.S. Supreme court ruled Wednesday that -- I can turn on her just like that.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Fickle man. That's what you get.
CAFFERTY: Oh, there will be another one here next week.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: It's that age discrimination thing.
CAFFERTY: Yes, that's right.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Wednesday people over the age of 40 can sue for age discrimination even if the employer never intended any bias, which means expanded job protection for half of the nation's workforce, 73 million of us. The court said employers can still defend their practices on reasonable grounds, such as cost-cutting as opposed to age.
The question is this: Do employers discriminate against older workers?
Lou in New York writes, "I'm an executive recruiter on Wall Street. Brokerage firms are notorious for excluding older candidates mostly on grounds these people's skills are no longer relevant, and they claim they're seeking individuals with far less experience. I'm glad to see legislation providing better protection to people over 40."
Reg in Ontario writes, "Jack, you have Kelly Wallace reading the news and Kyra Phillips joining the gang on the couch. Do you really expect us to concentrate on your stupid question?"
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Reg.
CAFFERTY: Martha in Pennsylvania, "I'm 62. After being widowed 10 years ago, I found that despite education, 30 years' experience, the only jobs open to me were the low-paying entry-level kind. I also found that co-workers who lack the work ethic make life hell for us who try to do the job and do it well."
And Ziggy in Alpine, Texas, "Jack, it's correct that age is used to filter people out, not hire them. Yesterday I applied for that couch job next to you and Bill. I'm 60, old, fat and ugly. They said, 'No dice, you're old, fat and ugly. Get lost. Kyra Phillips got the job.'"
PHILLIPS: Oh, Ziggy. That's one of the best cartoons, by the way.
CAFFERTY: "Ziggy?"
PHILLIPS: Talk about aging ourselves when I'm bringing up "Ziggy." Sorry.
HEMMER: That's all right.
PHILLIPS: I love "Ziggy." All right. I'm not going to say anything more. I don't want to offend you. I'm getting a little nervous.
CAFFERTY: You're the anchor. You can -- this is your program today. You can do anything you want.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
Let's get a break here in a moment. Terri Schiavo perhaps in her final hours of life. A tense atmosphere, too, outside of that hospice. Live from Pinellas Park in Florida with the latest after a break here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 31, 2005 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Seeing Terri Schiavo and hearing her as never before. Videotapes used to answer the most fundamental questions in the Schiavo matter. What questions do they answer for us this morning?
And new setbacks for those fighting to keep Terri Schiavo alive, told to stay away from her bedside and rejected again by the U.S. Supreme Court. Is the battle ending on this AMERICAN MORNING?
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Good morning, everyone. Third hour starting now. Soledad is on vacation this week. Kyra Phillips here in New York City to help us out.
Great to see you.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Great to see you. And a beautiful day it is.
HEMMER: Good morning. Thank you for that. Giving you all the credit.
PHILLIPS: Well, your whole crew is amazing.
That's right, Soledad is off. Good morning, everyone.
We're going to get right back to Pinellas Park, Florida, in just a minute for the latest developments in the Terri Schiavo case. We're going to look at these new videotapes that were released last night. Also talk about a Supreme Court order that may put an end to the legal battles.
All that's coming up.
HEMMER: And an awful lot to talk about again today on that story.
Also, from Red Lake, Minnesota, the school shooting. One student has been arrested, we know that. But was there a wider conspiracy at work? "The New York Times" some exclusive reporting on this today. We'll talk to the reporter on the scene for the "Times" watching that investigation . And here are countless questions still in northern Minnesota there.
Back to Jack also. What's on your mind?
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Sweeping ruling by the Supreme Court that says that if you're over 40, you can sue the company you work for, for age discrimination, even if there's no evidence of intentional age discrimination for to you base your case on. It will change the rules for a lot of people who have experience in the workplace and don't feel like they're getting a fair shake.
The "Question of the Day" is, do companies discriminate based on age? AM@CNN.com is the e-mail address. We'll read some letters.
HEMMER: Substantial ruling, too. Jack, thanks.
While you were talking, there's breaking news at Pinellas Park. Brother Paul O'Donnell is back at the microphone, a spokesperson for two weeks now with the family. Let's drop in here and listen and see if we can pick anything out of this.
BROTHER PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: Bobby and Suzanne want to be at their sister's side as she dies. This is -- this is her final hours.
They have told the police they would be willing to be in the room with Michael Schiavo, and they're begging, begging to go in and see Terri and be with her in these last hours. They have placed calls to the attorneys. They have pleaded with Michael. They have a mediator who will facilitate things to keep things calm and peaceful.
But right now the family is requesting that they be allowed to be at Terri's bedside, and they're being denied. And as you can imagine, they are very, very, very upset. So as they play out this emotional struggle, please understand that they want to be at her bedside and they're being denied by Michael Schiavo.
QUESTION: Have they been told that that's their final visit? Is that what the police said?
O'DONNELL: The family is told nothing. For the last 14 days, the family is told nothing. They are given nothing.
They are pleading to be at Terri's bedside. She may die within the next couple hours. They want to remain in there even if it's just to sit in a chair next to Michael Schiavo.
This is a family that's known Terri for 41 years, her mother, her father, her brother and sister. At least some members of the family, Terri's blood family, are requesting to be at her side.
Thank you.
HEMMER: That was Brother Paul O'Donnell there at the microphone in Pinellas Park outside the hospice. A couple things he's saying there, and quite graphically, too.
This is her final hours, according to brother Paul. She may die in the next couple of hours. And now begging, the family is, meaning the parents of Terri Schiavo, to be allowed by her bedside inside that hospice. There was movement again last night by the family requesting this, and apparently they were rejected upon that request.
Bob Franken's outside the hospice, can explain why.
Bob, good morning there.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bill, what we're seeing is the manifestation of the sadly bitter fight between the blood relatives of Terri Schiavo and her husband, who, as her guardian, is the one who ordered that the feeding tube be removed. And that, of course, has become the subject of this intensely bitter fight that has been going on.
We've witnessed the blood relatives. When they've been given permission by Michael Schiavo to go in, they have gone in, they've come out. This time when they left, the sister of Terri Schiavo, Suzanne Vitadamo, and her brother, Bobby Schindler, came out. And unlike most times, when they will stop and talk to reporters, they raced past the cameras.
Suzanne -- Suzanne Vitadamo had a tear in her eye. And what we had there was an explanation about what was causing it.
By all accounts, Terri Schiavo is in her last hours. She's expected soon to lose -- to lose her life. This, of course, has been something that's been going on for almost two weeks. And most specialists will tell you that's about the time span that is involved.
For an indication of it, we have Father Frank Pavone, who talked to Bill, talked to you earlier this morning. Subsequent to that, went in, and he came out to tell us that Terri Schiavo was deteriorating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FATHER FRANK PAVONE, SCHINDLER FAMILY SUPPORTER: We just prayed a rosary together. She's, from what I can tell, considerably weaker than when I saw her about eight hours ago. And still, I would describe her as distressed. She's breathing rapidly, shallowly, and her eyes are more sunken than they were even eight hours ago.
QUESTION: How is the visit going between Suzanne and Bobby and Terri? What are they doing there?
PAVONE: Just sitting there praying, holding her hand, stroking her hair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: And Bill, of course we've been reporting on this for the better part of two weeks. And it has been a story that has involved the institutions of government and the legal system. But at its heart this is a very human tragedy -- Bill.
HEMMER: Bob, just to be clear here, Michael Schiavo's the gatekeeper essentially, right? He has the authority to say who can and who cannot go in that room?
FRANKEN: He is the guardian. And it's been the subject of so much legislative discussion whether there should be some change in that, discussion that possibly the governor could take custody and turn it over to the blood relatives. But all of that has been rebuffed. He is the one who makes the decisions.
HEMMER: And do you know, Bob, have the parents ever number the room with Michael Schiavo at the same time?
FRANKEN: Certainly not for some time. And that has been on the demand of Michael Schiavo. And that is, of course, what Brother O'Donnell was just speaking about a moment ago.
He is pleading on behalf of the family for an exception so they, too, can be there when she dies. And thus far, Michael Schiavo, who has argued that it would just be awkward, has said no.
HEMMER: All right. Bob, thanks for that. Stand by in Pinellas Park.
We're watching also these videotapes never before seen by the public. This is Terri Schiavo with her mother, with her doctors, going back to the summer of 2002. There were 11 videotapes apparently. And nine of the 11 have been released by the Pinellas Count Probate Court coming out late last night.
The other two are still sealed by the court, but no explanation given at this point as to why the other two have not been released. Perhaps they reveal more, or perhaps less about Terri Schiavo's condition.
I want to get to Sanjay right now at the CNN Center.
You've been watching and listening to these tapes now for about 12 hours.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
HEMMER: Your assessment is what, Sanjay?
GUPTA: Well, you know, obviously, these tapes have not been seen before by us. So they do give us some more insights into what some of the people have been basing their judgments on.
Of those tapes, Bill, I looked at several of them. The doctors, the exams, as well, watching those neurologists examine Terri.
I can't make any conclusion just by looking at a videotape, and nobody probably should. But what's startling to me and sort of striking is that these doctors sort of get very similar exams, but arrived at very different conclusions as to what the state that she's in and her prognosis.
That's Dr. Hamisfar (ph) examining her now. You can listen in. He believes that she's not in a persistent vegetative state. Trying to determine whether or not she's following commands. They're actually moving her leg when he asks her to. You can draw your own conclusions as you watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: Now, let me just tell you as you're watching this as well, Bill, oftentimes the leg is in a spastic state here, meaning it's very stiff. You notice Dr. Hamisfar (ph) sort of pushing it down and then it coming back up.
He's saying, "Good." Does that mean that he thinks that she was following a command, or was the leg just doing what it otherwise normally would have?
You can see some of the confusion here, Bill. Again, these are just videotapes. We're getting a very small glimpse. And I caution anybody not to draw any conclusions based on the state that she's in now.
But, you know, it's very interesting to watch these sort of behind-the-scenes look at these exams, what the doctors based their conclusions on. You're seeing them for the first time right here.
HEMMER: Sanjay, based on what I understand, five neurologists have examined her? Is that right?
GUPTA: Well, five court-appointed neurologists, right.
HEMMER: OK. And among those court-appointed neurologists, all five have not concluded what they definitively believe about her condition. Is that right?
GUPTA: Two said she's not in a persistent vegetative state. And three said she was in a persistent vegetative state.
HEMMER: Well, then, as a neurosurgeon yourself, is that a suggestion ultimately how complex the human brain can be and how difficult it is to ultimately understand?
GUPTA: Yes, absolutely, Bill. And I'd even go a step further and say, you know, this -- for as much as we know about the science of the brain, there's a lot that we don't know as well. And that's what makes it so interesting to a certain extent.
But also, I think that, you know, with regards to most families, most patients, they sort of understand that there aren't absolutes here. We talked about the islands of consciousness before. People might have intermittent consciousness even in a persistent vegetative state.
That's striking to a lot of people. But I think it's the legal system, it's this system, this attention on this case that has focused people trying to make an absolute out of something where there really is not -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right. Don't go far, Sanjay. We'll come back to you there at the CNN Center.
GUPTA: All right.
HEMMER: Back to Kelly Wallace now with the headlines for this hour.
Good morning, Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Bill. Very busy news morning here. Here are some of the other stories "Now in the News."
A CNN "Security Watch" for you. A presidential commission finding U.S. intelligence was dead wrong in its assessments of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. The panel formally presents its findings to President Bush this morning. And we will hear from the president on the final report at 11:40 a.m. Eastern. Of course, CNN will carry that live.
And be sure to stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.
Three Romanian journalists and a U.S. citizen have been abducted in Iraq. The U.S. now calling for their immediate release.
The Al-Jazeera network broadcast video showing who it says are the three Romanians and an unidentified fourth person. It is not known if that fourth person is the missing American.
In California, jurors in the Michael Jackson trial hearing from the man who first told authorities about the molestation claims. A psychologist who interviewed Jackson's accuser taking the stand, testifying it would be extremely rare for the boy to make false allegations.
Jackson has denied the charges against him. The trial is in recess today in observance of a California holiday, Cesar Chavez Day.
And news about former President Bill Clinton. He's expected to make his first public appearance in more than two weeks.
The former president will accept the Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Humanitarian Award in Washington later today. He is being honored for his work to promote HIV and AIDS awareness. And, of course, he was in the hospital earlier this month. So first time we'll see him since then.
HEMMER: All right. Thanks, Kelly.
WALLACE: Sure. PHILLIPS: Well, Pope John Paul II did not make a public appearance today. The last two times he did, he tried to speak but couldn't. Now there's word that the wisdom of his public appearances is being questioned privately inside the Vatican.
CNN Vatican analyst John Allen joins us now live from Rome.
John, let's talk about the fact that he's being asked possibly by his advisers not to be seen in public. But this is a man who has based his whole life and his whole mission about suffering. So is it about strength or is it about spectacle?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Kyra. Well, that's exactly the debate that I think is unfolding here in Rome in these days. And this debate actually has been going on in subterranean form inside the Vatican for some time. But what is unusual now is that the recent public appearances, where the pope has so visibly been in pain, been in distress, appeared weakened, and obviously now twice in a row been physically unable to speak despite his best efforts, have sort of forced that discussion out into full public view.
In the Italian papers today, two editors of the -- two of the most influential Catholic publications in this country that certainly speak for constituencies inside the Vatican, as well as outside, are publicly debating this question. And the issue is, when the pope appears in public so weakened, so emaciated, is that a powerful testimony to hope and the dignity of human life, or is that making a media spectacle out of his own suffering? And does it risk obscuring the central Christian point, which, after all, is not about the suffering of the pope, it's about the suffering of Christ and what it meant for humanity?
And so I think this debate, which, as I say, has been going on for some time, now as a front-burner matter here as the pope's public appearances do seem so pained, so difficult for many of us to watch.
PHILLIPS: Well, and I want to ask you, quickly, John, about his condition with the tube. Right now receiving nutrition through a nasal tube. Now there's talk possibly he might receive one like Terri Schiavo's, one through the stomach, which would be more of a permanent type of tube. What do you know about that?
ALLEN: Well, I spoke this morning with a senior Vatican official on background who indicated that at the moment that there is no present plan to insert that abdominal tube, which you rightly say would have to be inserted surgically, but would be a Terri Schiavo- style tube. Obviously they're hoping that the feeding through the nasal tube will be enough to beef up his caloric intake so that it doesn't come to that.
Ultimately, the risk here is that you can't use that nasal tube terribly long, and that he's going to need to recover his own capacity to take in calories. If that doesn't happen, then they might have to go to the surgical tube.
The other point we can add is that Vatican officials told us this morning that at least as of today this are no present plans to take him back to the hospital, denying some media speculation to that effect. But on the other hand, Kyra, I think the thing we have to say is that when you're talking about an elderly person with multiple health problems, you know, you simply don't know what tomorrow is going to bring.
And in such an atmosphere, obviously that's going to invite all kinds of speculation. At the moment, the Vatican is doing everything it possibly can to try and rein some of that in.
PHILLIPS: Well, I don't think there's any argument when you say that the pope is a very strong man mentally and spiritually.
John Allen live from Rome. Thank you so much.
Well, let's check in on weather. Chad Myers at the CNN Center with the latest forecast.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: Let's get a break here in a moment. There is a new headline in the Terri Schiavo case. We just heard from a family spokesperson coming to the microphone in Florida saying she's now in her final hours. We will not leave that story for long. Back to that in a moment.
Also, back to Minnesota. More on the school shooting. Was there a plot there to attack other targets? A closer look with a reporter on the scene in a moment.
PHILLIPS: And Senator Ted Kennedy's ex-wife found lying in the street unconscious. A former politician who knows of similar heartache firsthand joins us next on AMERICAN MORNING.
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HEMMER: The ex-wife of Senator Ted Kennedy now recovering in a Boston hospital this morning. Joan Kennedy was found by a passerby unconscious on a Boston street just a few blocks from her home. She suffering from a concussion and apparently a broken shoulder as well.
The good Samaritan says Kennedy did not appear to be intoxicated. But it's been reported in recent months that Kennedy has had relapses with alcohol. The question this morning is, what can family members do in a situation like this?
Former Senator George McGovern knows the problem firsthand. He's the author of a book about his own daughter, Terry, and her long battle with alcoholism which ended in her death back in 1994. From Sioux Falls, South Dakota, the senator is with me this morning.
And good morning to you, and thank you for your time.
GEORGE MCGOVERN, FMR. U.S. SENATOR: Good morning.
HEMMER: When you hear about Joe Kennedy -- Joan Kennedy's story, rather, can you draw similarities looking back on your own situation with your daughter?
MCGOVERN: Well, I don't know the circumstances, of course, of this recent problem with Joan, but it's well publicized that she has had a problem with alcohol for a number of years.
I first met her 40 years ago. I thought she was one of the loveliest creatures I'd ever witnessed. I still think so 40 years later. But like my daughter, and like 20 million other Americans today, she has suffered from the disease of alcoholism.
So of course my heart goes out to the family and to Joan. I hope for the best.
This is a very difficult affliction to hit anyone. And it doesn't respect us in terms of whether we're rich or poor, young or old, wise or foolish it. It can hit any family and any person. And once that addiction takes hold of an individual, they're in for a long time of trouble.
HEMMER: How often, or did you ever believe that your daughter was clean and out of the woods?
MCGOVERN: Well, she was in every treatment program that we could get her into. She went through counseling. She went to the AA meetings. The last four years of her life, where she lived in Madison, Wisconsin, she was in and out of the Talurian Treatment Center (ph) some 68 times.
HEMMER: Wow.
MCGOVERN: It makes me shudder even yet to think of this marvelous young woman, which she was, an intelligent, sensitive, caring, witty individual -- everyone loved her -- the same characteristics that I associate with Joan Kennedy. It's interesting that Abraham Lincoln, almost 150 years ago, said a strange fact. The inebriates among us are frequently the most sensitive, the most compassionate and the most intelligent of our kind. This is characteristic of this illness.
HEMMER: I've heard that before. And the other thing I've heard about when it comes to alcoholism is that there's a strong possibility that this could be genetic as well.
Can you still hear me OK there in South Dakota? I'll wait for a second here and let you put that back in, Senator.
Here's my point. A lot of doctors will conclude that this could be a genetic factor here, handed down from parents. How do families deal with the possibility of guilt when it comes to that?
MCGOVERN: Well, it is a possibility that heredity is a factor. The gene structure that we inherit at birth can, I suppose, make us vulnerable to addiction. Most people can take a drink or two, myself included, and have no problem. But an alcoholic can't do that.
If they drink a spoonful, they're going to drink all the booze that's left in the room until it's gone. This is the characteristic of the disease.
Families suffer enormously in the presence of an alcoholic because it's so disruptive of their lives. And if it's someone that you love deeply, as the Kennedy family did Joan Kennedy, and continues to love her, it's very painful to see a marvelous person like that have their lives disrupted so painfully by this illness.
You know, we lost 3,000 innocent Americans in the 9/11 tragedy in New York. We lose 35 times that many every year in this country from alcoholism.
A hundred thousand people just lay down and die from this illness every year. Some of them very young. Some in middle years, some older. But it's a fatal disease if you can't find some way to get on top of it.
So my prayers and my hope and my affection is that if this was an alcohol-related incident with Joan, that she'll recover from that and get back on the road to a recovered life.
HEMMER: Our thought, too. And thank you, Senator, for shedding light on this, this morning for us. George McGovern in Sioux Falls.
A tense atmosphere outside of Terri Schiavo's hospice in Florida. One family supporter now saying that Schiavo is in her final hours. And her family is being denied the right to be by her side.
Back to Florida and those stories when we continue in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIPS: He's warmed up. He's feeling good. It's 9:30. Jack Cafferty is smiling.
CAFFERTY: I am?
PHILLIPS: OK. You were two seconds ago.
CAFFERTY: The United States Supreme court -- when does Soledad get back?
HEMMER: Monday.
CAFFERTY: Monday, OK. Carol's here tomorrow?
HEMMER: Carol.
CAFFERTY: OK.
The U.S. Supreme court ruled Wednesday that -- I can turn on her just like that.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Fickle man. That's what you get.
CAFFERTY: Oh, there will be another one here next week.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: It's that age discrimination thing.
CAFFERTY: Yes, that's right.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled Wednesday people over the age of 40 can sue for age discrimination even if the employer never intended any bias, which means expanded job protection for half of the nation's workforce, 73 million of us. The court said employers can still defend their practices on reasonable grounds, such as cost-cutting as opposed to age.
The question is this: Do employers discriminate against older workers?
Lou in New York writes, "I'm an executive recruiter on Wall Street. Brokerage firms are notorious for excluding older candidates mostly on grounds these people's skills are no longer relevant, and they claim they're seeking individuals with far less experience. I'm glad to see legislation providing better protection to people over 40."
Reg in Ontario writes, "Jack, you have Kelly Wallace reading the news and Kyra Phillips joining the gang on the couch. Do you really expect us to concentrate on your stupid question?"
(LAUGHTER)
PHILLIPS: Thanks, Reg.
CAFFERTY: Martha in Pennsylvania, "I'm 62. After being widowed 10 years ago, I found that despite education, 30 years' experience, the only jobs open to me were the low-paying entry-level kind. I also found that co-workers who lack the work ethic make life hell for us who try to do the job and do it well."
And Ziggy in Alpine, Texas, "Jack, it's correct that age is used to filter people out, not hire them. Yesterday I applied for that couch job next to you and Bill. I'm 60, old, fat and ugly. They said, 'No dice, you're old, fat and ugly. Get lost. Kyra Phillips got the job.'"
PHILLIPS: Oh, Ziggy. That's one of the best cartoons, by the way.
CAFFERTY: "Ziggy?"
PHILLIPS: Talk about aging ourselves when I'm bringing up "Ziggy." Sorry.
HEMMER: That's all right.
PHILLIPS: I love "Ziggy." All right. I'm not going to say anything more. I don't want to offend you. I'm getting a little nervous.
CAFFERTY: You're the anchor. You can -- this is your program today. You can do anything you want.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
Let's get a break here in a moment. Terri Schiavo perhaps in her final hours of life. A tense atmosphere, too, outside of that hospice. Live from Pinellas Park in Florida with the latest after a break here.
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