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American Morning
Special Coverage: Pope's Legacy
Aired April 03, 2005 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to Rome everyone. I'm Bill Hemmer again live high above Vatican City. It's 5:00 in the afternoon here, about two hours away from sunset and about 11:00 in the morning on a Sunday morning back in the U.S. and welcome to our continuing special coverage.
There had been a number of things that have happened today and for that matter, a lot of things that have not taken place and a lot of things that we're still wondering how they will play out in the coming days here in Italy. This is what has gone on so far today. Somewhat of a surprise move based on the schedule we were given. The pope had -- was lying in a viewing section today of the Apostolic Palace for a very select number of dignitaries. These were bishops, archbishops, cardinals who had come to the Vatican to pay their final respects. As they did, one after the other coming up and kneeling at the feet often times in praying with their final respects of Pope John Paul II.
This is the first time, again, that the viewing has been conducted inside the Apostolic Palace. It's our understanding based on Vatican television that the viewing has concluded. And so the next time that we will see the body of Pope John Paul II will be sometime on Monday, most likely late in the afternoon when he's lying in state in St. Peter's Basilica. At that point, we will be able to get a better understanding of how many people will come to Rome and to the Vatican to pay their final respects.
Also, the Vatican today released a statement about the cause of death. I want to get down to Jim Bittermann yet again on that story, the cause of death and also somewhat of a first public admission of Parkinson's disease that we have ever heard throughout the Vatican. Here's Jim now. Good afternoon, Jim.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Bill. In fact the really first public admission was contained obliquely in a press release a number of weeks ago when the pope was at Gemelli Hospital. This is the first time that the press office here has actually put out a press release indicating the pope was suffering from Parkinson's. They denied it for many years and then they sort of tacitly admitted it.
But now in this latest release, they confirm what we really thought all along over the last few days. They confirmed that the pope had died of septic shock from cardio circulatory collapse and those two things were exacerbated by the Parkinson's conditions and what they call progressive episodes of respiratory trouble. And something that was a little bit of a departure from tradition here in the sense that it used to be that the way they confirmed death of popes was first with a silver hammer and then by calling out the pope's baptismal name. They were sure that they called out the pope's baptismal name. We're not so sure that they used the silver hammer. That practice was abandoned some years ago. But in any case, it was something they did that was quite modern is that they used electrocardio examination of the pope for more than 20 minutes to absolutely determine that the pope was dead.
Then this morning, around 9:30, the pope's doctor, Rinato Buzzonetti, got together with the camerlengo, Martinez Somalo, Cardinal Martinez Somalo, who is going to be quite influential in the next few days as the man in charge of running all the logistics of the Vatican. They got together at the pope's apartment and the doctor wrote out the death certificate. The death certificate was certified and then later in the day in fact they went on to the viewing that was a surprise to all of us because in fact, normally speaking there's a day of preparation involved after a papal death. And the viewing of the body takes place one day after the death.
So today was kind of a surprise barely 16 hours after the pope's death. In fact the pope's body was on display, as you mentioned, for the curia and some of the papal household. We saw the pope's personal secretary for 40 years break down in tears at the sight of the pope today and some of the nuns that attended to him, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger also seen breaking down in tears at the sight of the pope lying in state for the dignitaries this afternoon.
As you mentioned what will happen next is that the pope's body will be taken to St. Peter's Basilica. That's really a matter of logistics more than anything else because they couldn't possibly get any crowd of Catholics, well-wishers or people who wanted to see the pope into this small area in the Apostolic Palace. So they'll move the body to St. Peter's Basilica probably sometime during the day tomorrow. They'll make that decision tomorrow morning. And probably somewhere along about 5:00 then tomorrow night, they will open St. Peter's Basilica for public viewing. And that's when we expect a lot of people to come this direction.
Now all of that came after a day that started with a very standard way here in Rome, 10:30 in the morning mass at the Vatican. That happens every single Sunday here. Of course this was a mass without the pope. Angelo Sodano, the Secretary of State Cardinal Angelo Sodano celebrated that mass. He, of course, has lost his job as secretary of state, as all of the top officials do at the Vatican when the pope dies. I think -- I think he was trying to comfort those in the audience when he said life is not taken away but it's changed. An earthly home may be destroyed but a more beautiful home is being built in heaven, Angelo Sodano's words this morning at mass. Bill?
HEMMER: Thanks for that, Jim, Jim Bittermann again with me here at the Vatican. Talking with American priests down there at the crowd today, Jim mentioned that mass, 50,000 strong for that mass today. And it was stunning actually to be there and to witness the amount of respect that was given to the life of Pope John Paul II, this priest telling me the whole world loves the pope, whether you agree with him or not, his statement from earlier.
CNN's doing a poll right now that came out just recently indicating that two-thirds of those surveyed believes that Pope John Paul II was the greatest pope of all time. That may not surprise a whole lot of people when you consider a number of people. This is the only pope they've experienced in their lifetimes considering he has served for just about three decades here with the Vatican.
Italian media is reporting that the funeral will take place on Wednesday. That has not been confirmed to the Vatican. We should get a better idea tomorrow when the first meeting of the cardinals takes place here. If that is the case, that will be at the beginning of the window between four to six days is what Vatican law says, four to six days after death, the funeral must take place. So if indeed it is on Wednesday, that will be on day four after the passing of Pope John Paul II, but again nothing official from the Vatican.
The other thing we have not heard just yet is where the burial will take place. Throughout history popes have been buried here at St. Peter's Basilica, but there are strong rumors here that this pope may choose to be buried in his native country of Poland. He loved the mountains of southern Poland so much and so close to his heart it's possible he could choose to be buried there, but again there is no official word on that answer and possibly will not come until Monday as well.
Back to the Vatican in a moment here. But first we want to check on the other news of the day and for that, here's Tony Harris back at the CNN center. Tony, good morning there.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, Bill. Thank you very much. Now in the news, after weeks of wrangling, Iraq's national assembly elected a new leadership. Members picked a Sunni Arab as parliament speaker and Shiite and Kurdish leaders as his deputies. The selection clears the way for the transitional assembly to take a decisive step toward forming a new government nine weeks after historic elections.
Syria has pledged to withdraw all its troops and intelligence agents from Lebanon by the end of this month. That's from a top U.N. envoy. The official says Syria intends to pull out of Lebanon by April 30th. Syria has been under intense international pressure to withdraw following the February 14th assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister, Rafik Hariri. Officials say Syria has already removed 4,000 troops from Lebanon in the past few weeks.
This week's British royal wedding will go on as planned. British officials say Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles will marry Friday even if it clashes with the funeral of Pope John Paul. The pope's funeral is expected to be held sometime between Wednesday and Friday.
In Florida, dozens of cancer patients are finding out they were mistakenly exposed to extra doses of radiation. Officials at the H. Lee Moffitt cancer center in Tampa say patients received radiation levels up to 50 percent stronger than they were supposed to receive for almost a year. Officials say an improperly installed machine is to blame. The center's director talked about the potential for side effects.
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DR. WILLIAM S. DALTON, H. LEE MOFFITT CANCER CENTER: What we think we'll probably see or possibly see and we don't know, possibly more people will have side effects than we anticipated. That we can only determine in time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Seventy seven cancer patients are affected, 12 have died but officials have not said the extra radiation caused those deaths.
And they can't call their team a winner, so some Michigan State basketball fans may be calling their lawyers instead. Rioters raised quite a ruckus last night in East Lansing after the Spartans lost their chance at the NCAA championship, losing to North Carolina 87-71. Police arrested about 60 people using tear gas to disperse crowds. Officials say it was tamer than years past.
Let's get another check of the nation's weather now. Rob Marciano is in the CNN weather center. Good morning Rob.
(WEATHER FORECAST)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Well, sounds nice there. Thanks Rob.
Coming up in a moment, remembering Pope John Paul II and the impact he made on the world. That's ahead. Stay with us on our extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING.
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O'BRIEN: Certainly Pope John Paul II was beloved by millions of Catholics around the world. But what was his impact on the Jewish community? Joining us this morning to talk about that is Rabbi David Wolpe of the Sinai temple in Los Angeles. It's nice to see you Rabbi, thanks for being with us. Your sermon yesterday was about John Paul II. Give me a sense of what you said to your flock this morning.
RABBI DAVID WOLPE, SINAI TEMPLE, LOS ANGELES: Well, the single- most important thing, I think, in remembering the pope from the point of view of the Jewish people is that he grew up in a small town in Poland with 10,000 people in that town and of those 10,000, 2,000 were Jews. This was between the wars. And the Jewish presence in Poland and all through eastern Europe was very prominent. And when the Second World War was over, the pope knew that there were no Jews left in the town in which he grew up. And he felt personally the destruction of what amounted to one-third of all of the Jewish people in the course of the Second World War. And he carried that legacy with him in not only an official way, but in a deeply personal way that allowed him to connect with the historical tragedies of the Jewish people and also in a way no pope had before with their current aspirations to live in safety and in peace.
O'BRIEN: So then, what do you think was Pope John Paul II's importance overall to the Jewish people?
WOLPE: I think he represented to them a certain break with thousands of years of history of what was called by the historian Jules Izak (ph) the teaching of contempt. In schools, in churches, in passion plays, even in the media for a long time, the idea that the Jewish people and the Christian people must be at odds, that Christians would blame the Jews collectively for what they understood to be the great tragedy of their history, that is, the death of Jesus, all of that. That ate way at the possibility of Jews and Christians working in the kind of harmony that we would wish for. And this pope represented a break with that awful millennial tradition.
O'BRIEN: He was -- I'm sorry for interrupting.
WOLPE: That's OK.
O'BRIEN: I want to sort of highlight some important things he was the first pope to step inside a synagogue.
WOLPE: He was the first modern pope to step inside a synagogue. He recognized the state of Israel in 1993. He traveled to Israel and went to Yad Vashem, which was the Holocaust Memorial Museum. He met with the chief rabbis of Israel. He made many, many gestures that showed that he really felt and understood the relationship of the parent faith which is Judaism and Christianity.
O'BRIEN: Did all of those gestures by the pope himself change attitudes by Catholics and Christians around the world in any way, do you think?
WOLPE: I think that they opened the door for those who were prepared to change their own attitudes. In the same way that you're given permission to not hold on to old grudges and anger, the pope gave Catholics and also Christians around the world a vision of what it is to be staunch in your own faith and yet to reach out to people of other faiths.
I want to say, there were things he did that of course put him at some odds with the Jewish community. He invited Arafat to the Vatican many times. He met with Kurt Waldheim, who was once the head of the U.N. but was barred from the United States as a war criminal, and yet the pope met with him. And those things caused some antagonism. But none of them, did anything really to ultimately sour the relationship between the Jewish people and an extraordinary man who reached out from a background in which so many did not to the Jewish people to show that he really did understand our common legacy.
O'BRIEN: Rabbi David Wolpe of the Sinai Temple, joining us out of Los Angeles this morning, nice to talk to you. Thanks for being with us.
WOLPE: Thank you. My pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Our extended coverage of AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this short break. Stay with us.
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O'BRIEN: Mass under way at St. Patrick's Cathedral this morning. We're seeing live pictures. Cardinal Egan is saying that mass. Welcome back everybody to our special coverage of AMERICAN MORNING on this Sunday morning. Here's a question for you. Where did Pope John Paul II fit into American politics? Our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield's been thinking about where the pope's cultural views put him on the U.S. political scale. Jeff, good morning. Nice to see you as always. Many people of course talk about the pope as transcending politics in a way. And yet at the same time he was possibly the most political pope in lots of ways. So is it -- does it make any sense to talk about him being on the left or the right?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Not really. In his papacy there was encouragement for both sides of that divide on some political or public policy matters. His encyclicals and his teachings came down very hard on the side of social justice, concrete acts against world poverty. He raised a lot of questions about the so- called magic of the marketplace as a morally sound basis for all economic decisions.
On the other hand he was also a fierce critic of what was called liberation theology, the idea that the church should align itself with guerrilla movements say in Latin America. And remember, during his visit to Nicaragua in 1983, when the Marxist Sandinistas were in power, he actually directly confronted a priest who was in the cabinet and telling him to get right with the church. And this is neither left nor right, but he also forbade priests from serving in elected office. That's why Father Robert Drinan, a well-known congressman from Massachusetts, left the U.S. Congress.
O'BRIEN: On social issues, very conservative.
GREENFIELD: I think on the culture of life questions he took what we call conservative positions with one key exception. Under him the church expressly said no, not just to same sex marriage but to abortion, assisted suicide, embryonic stem cell research, even artificial birth control which in this country is not a particularly divisive issue. But on capital punishment, the pope reaffirmed and even strengthened the opposition to the church. So on that one, he doesn't line up with conservatives. I think in general, Catholic positions in the United States had been a much bigger problem for Democrats particularly pro-choice Catholic Democrats than for Republicans. That has a political impact.
O'BRIEN: There was a time when Catholics were very much discriminated against. Do you think the pope had any role in that diminishing, or is that just sort of passage of time?
GREENFIELD: I think it's both. Look, you're absolutely right. You go all the way back to the 19th century, a very strong anti- Catholic prejudice in much of America, the wave of Irish and Italian and Polish and German Catholics were met with very heavy resistance. Back in 1924 the Democratic Party was just split down the middle on a lot of issues, prohibition, immigration, condemning the Klan, where Catholics and Protestants diverged.
The revived Klan in the '20s overtly anti-Catholic, very powerful politically, we forget that. And in 1928 with Al Smith, as the Catholic presidential nominee and even in 1960 with JFK, they both faced opposition based on their faith. I think the start of the change of Pope John XXIII, who was reaching out to other denominations, did Vatican II.
But this pope, we talked about this you know from the time he was, he began to sink, visiting mosques and synagogues, apologizing for inaction during the holocaust, that helped with Jews and Muslims. His conservative cultural views I think found favor with many in the evangelical Protestant community whose ancestors were deeply suspicious of Catholicism, the pope of Rome. There is a lot of common cause now between those two groups on the conservative sigh. And I think Pope John Paul II and his culture of life theme is a reason why.
O'BRIEN: A little bit ironic there. Give me a sense of his legacy from a political standpoint.
GREENFIELD: I -- it seems to me that the thing he will be most remembered for on that scene is the role he played in helping to bring down the Soviet Union. There's just no question that, you know, the first Polish-born pope, the first non-Italian pope, in 1979 his return to Poland. He didn't say a word about politics. He just conducted a huge open air mass. But I think you can't argue with the fact that that helped spur the birth of the solidarity movement. Whether they worked in tandem or not, he and Reagan and Thatcher and the Soviet dissidents, you look at where they were when he came to the papacy in 1978, 11 years later the Berlin wall falls and shortly thereafter communism disappears from the Soviet Union. I think the moral arguments that he and his colleagues made are going to be what he is most remembered for on the political scene.
O'BRIEN: Jeff Greenfield, thanks as always.
Let's go back to Rome and Bill Hemmer. Bill.
HEMMER: All right. Soledad. Thanks for that. John Allen is back with me here (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We want to try and piece together, Soledad what we are hearing in the Vatican based on the final moments of Pope John Paul II's life. As we say that, John, we want to say the Vatican hasn't talked about this in any way, but there are various reports floating around Rome today that his final word was amen and also we may find out whether that is true or not. At what point would the Vatican ever confirm a story like that?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, I think the first thing to understand about all of this Bill is that obviously, when a pope dies, there is a kind of natural instinctive desire to want his end to have been as spiritual and pious as possible and so there is a tendency for people to sometimes leap to conclusions about what must have been going on at the end. I recall when John Paul I for example died in 1978 one of the initial reports, that of course was a surprise death, one of the initial reports were that he died reading, "The Imitation of Christ," the traditional spiritual book in Catholic tradition. That eventually ended up not to have been true. So there's a certain degree of caution with which you have to treat these rumors.
HEMMER: As you say that, the other report indicates that he was staring out the window, lying in bed and staring at the pilgrims down blow and the report indicates this came from one man who was inside that room within the same time. But we also know there was more than one person there. So it's quite likely at some point somebody's going to either verify that story or will shoot it down.
ALLEN: Well, this of course was not a surprise death. I mean obviously we've known for a few days now that the end was near. There were a number of people in the pope's apartment when this happened. As you say, over the course of time, based on various reports we hear from various people, you know, we will be able to piece together exactly what happened. As you and I talked about earlier, Bill, you know the reality is, whether or not his last word was "amen" and we will eventually of course know that with some certainty, it certainly is symbolically appropriate, yes to life, yes to death.
HEMMER: John Allen, thanks. We'll talk again, our Vatican analyst here. You've been terrific today, very educational as we go through this process, thank you John.
We do not have a firm schedule. We expect perhaps tomorrow the Vatican will give us official word on the funeral, on the burial and when the conclave of cardinals, that giant meeting to select the next lead of the Roman Catholic Church, will begin here in the Vatican. Back in a moment here, live in Italy, after this.
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HEMMER: We remember now the extraordinary life of Pope John Paul II. You can see the pilgrims still gathered there in St. Peter's Square as they have been for the better part of this day. That crowd has ebbed and flowed and throughout the day, we've watched it continue to grow, really going back about the past hour and a half, the crowd again amassing down there in St. Peter's Square. Nothing scheduled there, nothing official. In fact it's been about 5 1/2 hours since the last mass ended there. But still they come and they come by the thousands here to pay respects to Pope John Paul II.
I'm Bill Hemmer again live here at the Vatican. Soledad O'Brien back in New York. And Soledad, hello again to you.
O'BRIEN: Good morning to you again, Bill. Thanks a lot. Let's take a look at what's going to happen here in the United States, reaction to the pope's death, also what's going to happen over the next few days and weeks. Today in St. Peter's Basilica as you have seen pictures there, the pilgrims there praying for the pope's soul.
On Monday, the first general congregation of cardinals will determine the time of his burial. Tomorrow afternoon, the pope is going to lie in state for public viewing in St. Peter's Basilica. He's going to be buried sometime between Wednesday and Friday. The pope traditionally is buried in St. Peter's Basilica. His coffin would be lowed into a marble sarcophagus and then covered by a stone. A large funeral mass will be held 10 days after the pope's death.
The next pope will be chosen by 117 cardinals who will gather at the Vatican. The votes take place inside the famous Sistine Chapel with its ceiling mural by Michelangelo. Black smoke will rise from the chimney each time the ballots (UNINTELLIGIBLE). When a new pope has been elected finally, the smoke will be white. The conclave of the college of cardinals must begin 15 days after the pope's death but not more than 20 days later. They'll be locked into the Sistine Chapel for the debating and the voting and sequestered if they need to sleep. Security very tight, no mobile phones, no electronic bugging will be allowed during the conclave.
Regardless of their religious faith, many Americans are remembering Pope John Paul II today. CNN's Peter Viles is at the cathedral of Our Lady of Angels in Los Angeles, the nation's largest Catholic archdiocese. And Kelly Wallace is in front of St. Patrick's cathedral right here in New York City. Peter, let's begin with you, good morning.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. It is a time of mourning here in Los Angeles, but not without some levity in the cathedral behind me. The funeral masses or the masses of mourning for the pope began last evening. They continue today, about 2,000 people are worshiping at the moment. Yesterday some interesting remarks from the pastor of the cathedral here, Monsignor Kevin Kostelnik about the pope, about meeting the pope, how nervous he was and how the pope put him at ease.
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MONSIGNOR KEVIN KOSTELNIK, CATHEDRAL OF OUR LADY OF THE ANGELS: We walked into the chapel. There were about 30 other guests. I remember sitting down and looking 10 feet away at the holy father and he had his hands in his face and he was groaning and grunting and twice I heard him say, Jesus, and I thought he's really talking with God. Then the pope came in and all of us applauded and the holy father came first to Archbishop Mahoney. The arch bishop greeted him, introduced me. This is the first thing the pope said. Archbishop Mahoney, how is Hollywood? How is Hollywood? Did I ever breathe a sigh of relief.
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VILES: A wonderful remembrance from Monsignor Kevin Kostelnik here at the cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in Los Angeles. Again, a mass for the pope at the moment, about 2,000 people in this large cathedral which the pope never visited. It's only two years old. Another mass at 10:00 here Los Angeles time expected overflow crowds for that next mass of 3,000 in excess of that. Soledad, back to you.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Peter Viles reporting from Los Angeles for us this morning. Peter, thanks. Let's get right to Kelly Wallace, same scene here in New York City, several masses being held today at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Hey Kelly, good morning again. KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again, Soledad and overflow crowds here as well giving you a sign of the outpouring of grief. I'm going it step out of the shot so Ken can zoom in. You can see all the people are coming out of the cathedral right now. Many people were gathering outside the cathedral because they couldn't get inside. More than 2000 people packing inside for what is the second of three special masses at this majestic cathedral sitting really in the heart of midtown Manhattan, a place that Pope John Paul II visited during his two visits to New York City in 1979 and 1995.
Inside a mass led by Cardinal Egan, some dignitaries on hand including former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, also U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan. And there Cardinal Egan talked about how he was so inspired by the pope, how he faced down dictators, how he fought for justice, how he was a great leader. But then he said, there is something else that really inspired him and why he believes the pope was really a, quote, humble giant especially in his final years.
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CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: I was never inspired by him so much as when seemingly brought low by physical weakness, he continued to proclaim the gospel as best he could and feed his flock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And Cardinal Egan will be on hand this afternoon, 2:00 p.m., a special mass in Polish in honor of the pope. And Soledad, we understand the cardinal will do another mass tomorrow before leaving for Rome on Tuesday.
O'BRIEN: That's right, Kelly. He's going to be one of 117 cardinals who will be involved in the picking of the next pope. Has he spoken about that at all? I mean one has to imagine it is a pretty tremendous honor and yet burden at the same time.
WALLACE: He hasn't, in fact. I don't believe he held a news conference yesterday and I don't really believe he was asked about that. Of course this news conference coming just hours, really, after the news that Pope John Paul II had passed. We have talked, Soledad, the two of us, about the relationship. Cardinal Egan knew the pope very well. He studied in Rome in the '60s and in the '70s and he talked about how he was on hand when he was named bishop of Rome and that Cardinal Egan, his job at the time, was to guard all the cardinals.
He said he really didn't know what to do with that but he did his best. And he talked about how he saw the measure of a man and how he said that everyone was so proud of him that they knew even then he was something special, so no surprise at all to all of the lengths and all the achievements that he has pursued and achieved. Soledad.
O'BRIEN: It's sort of funny, just sort of picture Cardinal Egan guarding all the other cardinals as well. All right. Kelly, thanks for that update from St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City.
Let's turn to Carol now. You've been e-mailing, getting some of the e-mails that folks have had with their responses about what they thought of Pope John Paul II's passing as well.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: As you know from our viewers, they always have opinions about everything. I wanted to mention this new CNN/"USA Today" poll. It was just released today. It says two-thirds and I'm reading this right off the wire here, two-thirds of American Catholics believe Pope John Paul II will go down in history as one of the greatest popes. Again that's according to a CNN/"USA Today" Gallup poll just released today.
When you talk of the pope's mystique, perhaps Bendina (ph) from Arizona describes it best. She's the mother of eight children and she's not even Catholic. She wanted to meet one person in her life, not a rock star or a movie star, but Pope John Paul.
We're struggling to divine the why of that this morning. The question how will history remember Pope John Paul II? All right. Let's get right to our e-mails now. This is from Joe. He says this pope, while a very engaging and affable human being was too far out of step with the beliefs of the vast majority of Catholics to be relevant to them and to further the true mission of the church and Christ.
From Bill from Ontario, I feel that Pope John Paul II's greatest legacy perhaps was the way he talked and exemplified to both young and old the way in which we should cherish life right up until his last breath, we take, no matter the cross we carry just as Christ did.
This is from Donald from Freeport in the Bahamas. He says history will remember John Paul II as a man who reached the pinnacle of the Roman Catholic Church, walked with kings, queens and princes, but did not lose touch with the poor and the down trod.
And finally this from KP. As a follower of the Sikh faith, I admired the holy father's efforts to reach out to other faith traditions. He reminded and inspired us all to widen the circle of life and love that may embrace all God's children.
O'BRIEN: Many of the themes that we've been hearing not only from our viewers this morning but others as well. Carol, thanks.
Let's go right back to Rome and Bill Hemmer. Bill, good morning again.
HEMMER: Soledad, thanks. Yeah, here in Rome, it's come up at about 6:00 in the evening here. We're just seeing some new videotape, Soledad. Just to give our viewers a better understanding of this, we saw on Vatican television today a public viewing for a select group of people invited here to the Vatican. This, however, was a viewing that took place prior to that time. So we're talking about two separate viewings in one day today.
We're told that this is a collection of dignitaries possibly cardinals, archbishops who have come here, kissing him on the forehead and giving their last respects. This was done, Soledad, in a private chapel, but still in that same building known as the palace in the area where Pope John Paul II has spent the last 26 years of his life and where it ended last evening here in Rome. This was in the private chapel before it was moved to Clementine Hall. Clementine Hall was that beautifully ornate room that we have been watching throughout the afternoon. So this is the first time we've seen this videotape, so two viewings. We wanted to share that with our views. Back to Rome in a moment here right after this.
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O'BRIEN: The next generation, Pope John Paul II's 26th tenure has inspired legions of young men studying for the priesthood and joining us this morning, three students from the Immaculate Conception Seminary at Seton Hall University in New Jersey. Nice to see you gentlemen. We have Esterminio Chica (ph), seminary student, also Mark Ivany joining us this morning and Charles Cortinovis joining us as well. Thanks for being with us. Let's begin with you, Mark. You said that learning about the pope's upbringing made this tremendous impact on you. Why?
MARK IVANY, SEMINARY STUDENT: Interesting, you know, looking back on the pope's life, obviously, all the interviews and things we've been seeing in the media now, has really brought to mind how rough his upbringing was, especially losing his mother, his older brother at a very young age.
O'BRIEN: His suffering really was life long. Many of us look sort of to his illness but actually he had a very tough childhood as well.
IVANY: Many people say that the entire time you know the holy spirit was really preparing him for what he needed to do in, during his papacy. I believe that to be very true.
O'BRIEN: As you well know, the pope targeted young people. We saw some of the pictures from back I think in 1993 in Denver. As young seminarians, what appealed to you about the pope?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He challenged us. He challenged us.
O'BRIEN: In what way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, take advantage of the precious youth. He said don't waste any time of it. You know, answer the call, make a choice, as soon as possible. Be salt and light of the earth. That was his message in 2002 in Toronto. He said don't let the world compete for your soul. Jesus want yours soul.
O'BRIEN: He really sort of modernized the idea of temptation to some degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
O'BRIEN: which I think for many previous popes was sort of set back for young people kind of hard to get their minds around. Charles, I'm curious to know what you think of the numbers. There's a crisis -- I'm not the first person to bring this up -- in the church. The numbers of parishioners growing but the number of actual clergy diminishing. How do you fix that? How do you change that?
CHARLES CORTINOVIS, SEMINARY STUDENT: I think it really is an individual basis. Every diocese is slightly different. For example in Washington where we're studying from, we've had a fair number of seminarians enter the past several years. I believe we had 13 this past year and even more in years past. So certain dioceses are doing better than others. But I think the key is to make sure that young people realize that if they're called to the priesthood by the holy spirit and by Jesus Christ, that's what they'll be happy doing. And to make it, just to make a normal occupation that that's what, if that's what you're called to do, then go ahead and do it, don't be afraid as the pope himself said.
O'BRIEN: You were an attorney.
CORTINOVIS: I was.
O'BRIEN: Explain the -- you were called to be an attorney first and then you were called to the priesthood. Was there something about this pope that made you change your calling? I'm being of course facetious about the calling to be an attorney.
CORTINOVIS: Well, he's obviously been a great example always. His perseverance, his faith and his love for everyone, there's just, you know, wonderful examples of what the priesthood should be. I also had many wonderful example of priests locally in Washington, D.C. who inspired me by their example to make me want to enter the seminary.
O'BRIEN: Some of the criticism, of course, about the pope was that he was very, very strict, that there was no dealing liberally with a changing world, especially I think from American Catholics who sort of said, we're still arguing about birth control. We're still arguing about abortion. These are all issues that have moved forward and the pope's not moving with them. How do you answer people who bring that -- it can't be the first time you've heard these. How do you answer that?
IVANY: For myself, actually, the pope's ability, his courage to stay with the truth, with the true teaching of the Catholic Church despite all of those things -- the pope is very well aware of western Europe, the situations in America, especially in Canada and his courage to stay with the truth and to never water it down while preaching it with compassion and love, inspired me and gave me -- gave me the courage to answer my call.
O'BRIEN: Thank you all for coming in to talk to us about it. We certainly appreciate it. We have our seminary students talking to us. A short break ahead. We continue our special coverage of AMERICAN MORNING right after this. Stay with us.
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HEMMER: As Christians from around the world on this Sunday attended their own respective church around the globe, this is what mass look like today in St. Peter's Square, 50,000 strong coming to pay their respects on this Sunday. It ended about six hours ago but it is the first of many masses we will see in the coming week. Let's listen here for a minute and watch the images from Vatican City.
And throughout this square, there are these four giant video monitors in each corner of St. Peter's and every time the image of the pope is put up on those giant video screens, you can hear the wave of applause ripple its way through the crowd there, 50,000 strong again as I mentioned earlier, a true sense of spirit today in Vatican City. Soledad?
O'BRIEN: Well, Bill, in his tenure as Pope John Paul II built a reputation as a communicator who virtually redefined the role of pontiff. David Van Biema is the religion writer for "Time" magazine. He covered the pope for a number of years. You wrote an obituary in "Time" magazine was I thought incredibly moving and one of your first lines was talking about the reparations (ph) of the death of the pope and the life of the pope almost comparing it to like a bomb essentially. What do you mean?
DAVID VAN BIEMA, RELIGION WRITER, TIME MAGAZINE: He wrote a poem very early on -- he was a poet as well as everything else and talked about the truth exploding like a bomb and his version of the truth really did explode through our age. From the very -- I mean from early on before he became pope and almost immediately he became pope, his -- he made an almost immediate impact in terms of international affairs and exposed a very great truth with regard to communism and then subsequently went on to speak extraordinarily strongly to a world that didn't necessarily always agree with everything that he said, but was kind of in love with his saying it to them.
O'BRIEN: It kin of defines I think the relationship with American Catholics and the pope, to some degree and again you write about that in this obituary in "Time" magazine as well that Americans love the pope and yet could easily say, but I disagree on this and I disagree on this and I disagree on that.
VAN BIEMA: That's right. I mean I think that the thing about him was, you know, if you take religion in college or something like that, they tell you that what's its purpose? It gives people's lives meaning. You hear that and talk about the new age. Well, it gives peoples' lives meaning. You looked at this guy and you saw it giving meaning. There was no moment in his life that he didn't seem to have two things happening both what was go on that that moment and the way he saw it spinning forward and spinning upward. And that's very, very rare and I think when people talk about his charisma, his ability to communicate, that's really what they're talking about. We all try to -- we're all kind of try to get by, but we all have tremendous admiration and to some degree envy for people whose every moment is dedicated to something greater or something other.
O'BRIEN: Sort of a sense of purpose. How did that play though within the church hierarchy? Did he have -- did some think that he maybe took it too far and maybe in the picking the next pope, dial back, go a different direction in. VAN BIEMA: Well, any long papacy tends to pull power in towards the pope. And his -- in this case was no exception. And there are probably a lot of bishops who feel that they have to some extent been reduced to rubber stamping statements out of Rome. As a matter of fact, you weren't really supposed to talk about something theological until you had cleared it. And I think that one of the likeliest things to happen when the conclave picks the next pope, is that they will try to pick somebody who understands the desire of the bishops for a little bit more autonomy.
O'BRIEN: You also see, I think, certainly in the pilgrims that we've been seeing in these pictures coming to us from St. Peter's Square, the impact his death has had, because there is a big variation in who has come, many non-Catholics, many non-Christians out there as well, mourning, truly mourning the loss of the pope.
VAN BIEMA: Well, again, once more I don't think his that appeal was only to Catholics because of this notion of meaning, that's not just something that's limited to Catholics. That's something that speaks to everybody. And then he visited over 130 countries and when you do that, you make friends.
O'BRIEN: People follow what you do. David Van Biema, nice to just have you talk with us this morning, the religion writer for "Time" magazine. Appreciate your time.
VAN BIEMA: Thanks.
O'BRIEN: As we wrap up our coverage this morning on this extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING, we will continue to of course bring you details on what happens next as the pope obviously has died and now they move forward to the conclave and the cardinals making their decision in Rome. Let's go back to Bill Hemmer in Rome this morning. Bill?
HEMMER: All right Soledad. Thanks. Nine days officially starts the period of mourning for the Vatican. Today is only day one as we reflect and remember and ultimately celebrate the life, the great and extraordinary life of Pope John Paul II. A bit earlier today, I said that Rome is a beautiful city when it's raining. I tell you, it's stunning when it's 65 degree and sunny. And now as we come upon another sunset here for Pope John Paul II on this day of holiness and spirit, the city becomes even more and more beautiful. So we'll pause now and thank our viewers for being along with us today. We'll be back here again tomorrow in the Vatican, remembering the life of Pope John Paul II. Have a good Sunday, everyone and so long from Rome.
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BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to Rome everyone. I'm Bill Hemmer again live high above Vatican City. It's 5:00 in the afternoon here, about two hours away from sunset and about 11:00 in the morning on a Sunday morning back in the U.S. and welcome to our continuing special coverage.
There had been a number of things that have happened today and for that matter, a lot of things that have not taken place and a lot of things that we're still wondering how they will play out in the coming days here in Italy. This is what has gone on so far today. Somewhat of a surprise move based on the schedule we were given. The pope had -- was lying in a viewing section today of the Apostolic Palace for a very select number of dignitaries. These were bishops, archbishops, cardinals who had come to the Vatican to pay their final respects. As they did, one after the other coming up and kneeling at the feet often times in praying with their final respects of Pope John Paul II.
This is the first time, again, that the viewing has been conducted inside the Apostolic Palace. It's our understanding based on Vatican television that the viewing has concluded. And so the next time that we will see the body of Pope John Paul II will be sometime on Monday, most likely late in the afternoon when he's lying in state in St. Peter's Basilica. At that point, we will be able to get a better understanding of how many people will come to Rome and to the Vatican to pay their final respects.
Also, the Vatican today released a statement about the cause of death. I want to get down to Jim Bittermann yet again on that story, the cause of death and also somewhat of a first public admission of Parkinson's disease that we have ever heard throughout the Vatican. Here's Jim now. Good afternoon, Jim.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Bill. In fact the really first public admission was contained obliquely in a press release a number of weeks ago when the pope was at Gemelli Hospital. This is the first time that the press office here has actually put out a press release indicating the pope was suffering from Parkinson's. They denied it for many years and then they sort of tacitly admitted it.
But now in this latest release, they confirm what we really thought all along over the last few days. They confirmed that the pope had died of septic shock from cardio circulatory collapse and those two things were exacerbated by the Parkinson's conditions and what they call progressive episodes of respiratory trouble. And something that was a little bit of a departure from tradition here in the sense that it used to be that the way they confirmed death of popes was first with a silver hammer and then by calling out the pope's baptismal name. They were sure that they called out the pope's baptismal name. We're not so sure that they used the silver hammer. That practice was abandoned some years ago. But in any case, it was something they did that was quite modern is that they used electrocardio examination of the pope for more than 20 minutes to absolutely determine that the pope was dead.
Then this morning, around 9:30, the pope's doctor, Rinato Buzzonetti, got together with the camerlengo, Martinez Somalo, Cardinal Martinez Somalo, who is going to be quite influential in the next few days as the man in charge of running all the logistics of the Vatican. They got together at the pope's apartment and the doctor wrote out the death certificate. The death certificate was certified and then later in the day in fact they went on to the viewing that was a surprise to all of us because in fact, normally speaking there's a day of preparation involved after a papal death. And the viewing of the body takes place one day after the death.
So today was kind of a surprise barely 16 hours after the pope's death. In fact the pope's body was on display, as you mentioned, for the curia and some of the papal household. We saw the pope's personal secretary for 40 years break down in tears at the sight of the pope today and some of the nuns that attended to him, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger also seen breaking down in tears at the sight of the pope lying in state for the dignitaries this afternoon.
As you mentioned what will happen next is that the pope's body will be taken to St. Peter's Basilica. That's really a matter of logistics more than anything else because they couldn't possibly get any crowd of Catholics, well-wishers or people who wanted to see the pope into this small area in the Apostolic Palace. So they'll move the body to St. Peter's Basilica probably sometime during the day tomorrow. They'll make that decision tomorrow morning. And probably somewhere along about 5:00 then tomorrow night, they will open St. Peter's Basilica for public viewing. And that's when we expect a lot of people to come this direction.
Now all of that came after a day that started with a very standard way here in Rome, 10:30 in the morning mass at the Vatican. That happens every single Sunday here. Of course this was a mass without the pope. Angelo Sodano, the Secretary of State Cardinal Angelo Sodano celebrated that mass. He, of course, has lost his job as secretary of state, as all of the top officials do at the Vatican when the pope dies. I think -- I think he was trying to comfort those in the audience when he said life is not taken away but it's changed. An earthly home may be destroyed but a more beautiful home is being built in heaven, Angelo Sodano's words this morning at mass. Bill?
HEMMER: Thanks for that, Jim, Jim Bittermann again with me here at the Vatican. Talking with American priests down there at the crowd today, Jim mentioned that mass, 50,000 strong for that mass today. And it was stunning actually to be there and to witness the amount of respect that was given to the life of Pope John Paul II, this priest telling me the whole world loves the pope, whether you agree with him or not, his statement from earlier.
CNN's doing a poll right now that came out just recently indicating that two-thirds of those surveyed believes that Pope John Paul II was the greatest pope of all time. That may not surprise a whole lot of people when you consider a number of people. This is the only pope they've experienced in their lifetimes considering he has served for just about three decades here with the Vatican.
Italian media is reporting that the funeral will take place on Wednesday. That has not been confirmed to the Vatican. We should get a better idea tomorrow when the first meeting of the cardinals takes place here. If that is the case, that will be at the beginning of the window between four to six days is what Vatican law says, four to six days after death, the funeral must take place. So if indeed it is on Wednesday, that will be on day four after the passing of Pope John Paul II, but again nothing official from the Vatican.
The other thing we have not heard just yet is where the burial will take place. Throughout history popes have been buried here at St. Peter's Basilica, but there are strong rumors here that this pope may choose to be buried in his native country of Poland. He loved the mountains of southern Poland so much and so close to his heart it's possible he could choose to be buried there, but again there is no official word on that answer and possibly will not come until Monday as well.
Back to the Vatican in a moment here. But first we want to check on the other news of the day and for that, here's Tony Harris back at the CNN center. Tony, good morning there.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, Bill. Thank you very much. Now in the news, after weeks of wrangling, Iraq's national assembly elected a new leadership. Members picked a Sunni Arab as parliament speaker and Shiite and Kurdish leaders as his deputies. The selection clears the way for the transitional assembly to take a decisive step toward forming a new government nine weeks after historic elections.
Syria has pledged to withdraw all its troops and intelligence agents from Lebanon by the end of this month. That's from a top U.N. envoy. The official says Syria intends to pull out of Lebanon by April 30th. Syria has been under intense international pressure to withdraw following the February 14th assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister, Rafik Hariri. Officials say Syria has already removed 4,000 troops from Lebanon in the past few weeks.
This week's British royal wedding will go on as planned. British officials say Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles will marry Friday even if it clashes with the funeral of Pope John Paul. The pope's funeral is expected to be held sometime between Wednesday and Friday.
In Florida, dozens of cancer patients are finding out they were mistakenly exposed to extra doses of radiation. Officials at the H. Lee Moffitt cancer center in Tampa say patients received radiation levels up to 50 percent stronger than they were supposed to receive for almost a year. Officials say an improperly installed machine is to blame. The center's director talked about the potential for side effects.
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DR. WILLIAM S. DALTON, H. LEE MOFFITT CANCER CENTER: What we think we'll probably see or possibly see and we don't know, possibly more people will have side effects than we anticipated. That we can only determine in time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Seventy seven cancer patients are affected, 12 have died but officials have not said the extra radiation caused those deaths.
And they can't call their team a winner, so some Michigan State basketball fans may be calling their lawyers instead. Rioters raised quite a ruckus last night in East Lansing after the Spartans lost their chance at the NCAA championship, losing to North Carolina 87-71. Police arrested about 60 people using tear gas to disperse crowds. Officials say it was tamer than years past.
Let's get another check of the nation's weather now. Rob Marciano is in the CNN weather center. Good morning Rob.
(WEATHER FORECAST)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Well, sounds nice there. Thanks Rob.
Coming up in a moment, remembering Pope John Paul II and the impact he made on the world. That's ahead. Stay with us on our extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING.
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O'BRIEN: Certainly Pope John Paul II was beloved by millions of Catholics around the world. But what was his impact on the Jewish community? Joining us this morning to talk about that is Rabbi David Wolpe of the Sinai temple in Los Angeles. It's nice to see you Rabbi, thanks for being with us. Your sermon yesterday was about John Paul II. Give me a sense of what you said to your flock this morning.
RABBI DAVID WOLPE, SINAI TEMPLE, LOS ANGELES: Well, the single- most important thing, I think, in remembering the pope from the point of view of the Jewish people is that he grew up in a small town in Poland with 10,000 people in that town and of those 10,000, 2,000 were Jews. This was between the wars. And the Jewish presence in Poland and all through eastern Europe was very prominent. And when the Second World War was over, the pope knew that there were no Jews left in the town in which he grew up. And he felt personally the destruction of what amounted to one-third of all of the Jewish people in the course of the Second World War. And he carried that legacy with him in not only an official way, but in a deeply personal way that allowed him to connect with the historical tragedies of the Jewish people and also in a way no pope had before with their current aspirations to live in safety and in peace.
O'BRIEN: So then, what do you think was Pope John Paul II's importance overall to the Jewish people?
WOLPE: I think he represented to them a certain break with thousands of years of history of what was called by the historian Jules Izak (ph) the teaching of contempt. In schools, in churches, in passion plays, even in the media for a long time, the idea that the Jewish people and the Christian people must be at odds, that Christians would blame the Jews collectively for what they understood to be the great tragedy of their history, that is, the death of Jesus, all of that. That ate way at the possibility of Jews and Christians working in the kind of harmony that we would wish for. And this pope represented a break with that awful millennial tradition.
O'BRIEN: He was -- I'm sorry for interrupting.
WOLPE: That's OK.
O'BRIEN: I want to sort of highlight some important things he was the first pope to step inside a synagogue.
WOLPE: He was the first modern pope to step inside a synagogue. He recognized the state of Israel in 1993. He traveled to Israel and went to Yad Vashem, which was the Holocaust Memorial Museum. He met with the chief rabbis of Israel. He made many, many gestures that showed that he really felt and understood the relationship of the parent faith which is Judaism and Christianity.
O'BRIEN: Did all of those gestures by the pope himself change attitudes by Catholics and Christians around the world in any way, do you think?
WOLPE: I think that they opened the door for those who were prepared to change their own attitudes. In the same way that you're given permission to not hold on to old grudges and anger, the pope gave Catholics and also Christians around the world a vision of what it is to be staunch in your own faith and yet to reach out to people of other faiths.
I want to say, there were things he did that of course put him at some odds with the Jewish community. He invited Arafat to the Vatican many times. He met with Kurt Waldheim, who was once the head of the U.N. but was barred from the United States as a war criminal, and yet the pope met with him. And those things caused some antagonism. But none of them, did anything really to ultimately sour the relationship between the Jewish people and an extraordinary man who reached out from a background in which so many did not to the Jewish people to show that he really did understand our common legacy.
O'BRIEN: Rabbi David Wolpe of the Sinai Temple, joining us out of Los Angeles this morning, nice to talk to you. Thanks for being with us.
WOLPE: Thank you. My pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Our extended coverage of AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this short break. Stay with us.
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O'BRIEN: Mass under way at St. Patrick's Cathedral this morning. We're seeing live pictures. Cardinal Egan is saying that mass. Welcome back everybody to our special coverage of AMERICAN MORNING on this Sunday morning. Here's a question for you. Where did Pope John Paul II fit into American politics? Our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield's been thinking about where the pope's cultural views put him on the U.S. political scale. Jeff, good morning. Nice to see you as always. Many people of course talk about the pope as transcending politics in a way. And yet at the same time he was possibly the most political pope in lots of ways. So is it -- does it make any sense to talk about him being on the left or the right?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Not really. In his papacy there was encouragement for both sides of that divide on some political or public policy matters. His encyclicals and his teachings came down very hard on the side of social justice, concrete acts against world poverty. He raised a lot of questions about the so- called magic of the marketplace as a morally sound basis for all economic decisions.
On the other hand he was also a fierce critic of what was called liberation theology, the idea that the church should align itself with guerrilla movements say in Latin America. And remember, during his visit to Nicaragua in 1983, when the Marxist Sandinistas were in power, he actually directly confronted a priest who was in the cabinet and telling him to get right with the church. And this is neither left nor right, but he also forbade priests from serving in elected office. That's why Father Robert Drinan, a well-known congressman from Massachusetts, left the U.S. Congress.
O'BRIEN: On social issues, very conservative.
GREENFIELD: I think on the culture of life questions he took what we call conservative positions with one key exception. Under him the church expressly said no, not just to same sex marriage but to abortion, assisted suicide, embryonic stem cell research, even artificial birth control which in this country is not a particularly divisive issue. But on capital punishment, the pope reaffirmed and even strengthened the opposition to the church. So on that one, he doesn't line up with conservatives. I think in general, Catholic positions in the United States had been a much bigger problem for Democrats particularly pro-choice Catholic Democrats than for Republicans. That has a political impact.
O'BRIEN: There was a time when Catholics were very much discriminated against. Do you think the pope had any role in that diminishing, or is that just sort of passage of time?
GREENFIELD: I think it's both. Look, you're absolutely right. You go all the way back to the 19th century, a very strong anti- Catholic prejudice in much of America, the wave of Irish and Italian and Polish and German Catholics were met with very heavy resistance. Back in 1924 the Democratic Party was just split down the middle on a lot of issues, prohibition, immigration, condemning the Klan, where Catholics and Protestants diverged.
The revived Klan in the '20s overtly anti-Catholic, very powerful politically, we forget that. And in 1928 with Al Smith, as the Catholic presidential nominee and even in 1960 with JFK, they both faced opposition based on their faith. I think the start of the change of Pope John XXIII, who was reaching out to other denominations, did Vatican II.
But this pope, we talked about this you know from the time he was, he began to sink, visiting mosques and synagogues, apologizing for inaction during the holocaust, that helped with Jews and Muslims. His conservative cultural views I think found favor with many in the evangelical Protestant community whose ancestors were deeply suspicious of Catholicism, the pope of Rome. There is a lot of common cause now between those two groups on the conservative sigh. And I think Pope John Paul II and his culture of life theme is a reason why.
O'BRIEN: A little bit ironic there. Give me a sense of his legacy from a political standpoint.
GREENFIELD: I -- it seems to me that the thing he will be most remembered for on that scene is the role he played in helping to bring down the Soviet Union. There's just no question that, you know, the first Polish-born pope, the first non-Italian pope, in 1979 his return to Poland. He didn't say a word about politics. He just conducted a huge open air mass. But I think you can't argue with the fact that that helped spur the birth of the solidarity movement. Whether they worked in tandem or not, he and Reagan and Thatcher and the Soviet dissidents, you look at where they were when he came to the papacy in 1978, 11 years later the Berlin wall falls and shortly thereafter communism disappears from the Soviet Union. I think the moral arguments that he and his colleagues made are going to be what he is most remembered for on the political scene.
O'BRIEN: Jeff Greenfield, thanks as always.
Let's go back to Rome and Bill Hemmer. Bill.
HEMMER: All right. Soledad. Thanks for that. John Allen is back with me here (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We want to try and piece together, Soledad what we are hearing in the Vatican based on the final moments of Pope John Paul II's life. As we say that, John, we want to say the Vatican hasn't talked about this in any way, but there are various reports floating around Rome today that his final word was amen and also we may find out whether that is true or not. At what point would the Vatican ever confirm a story like that?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, I think the first thing to understand about all of this Bill is that obviously, when a pope dies, there is a kind of natural instinctive desire to want his end to have been as spiritual and pious as possible and so there is a tendency for people to sometimes leap to conclusions about what must have been going on at the end. I recall when John Paul I for example died in 1978 one of the initial reports, that of course was a surprise death, one of the initial reports were that he died reading, "The Imitation of Christ," the traditional spiritual book in Catholic tradition. That eventually ended up not to have been true. So there's a certain degree of caution with which you have to treat these rumors.
HEMMER: As you say that, the other report indicates that he was staring out the window, lying in bed and staring at the pilgrims down blow and the report indicates this came from one man who was inside that room within the same time. But we also know there was more than one person there. So it's quite likely at some point somebody's going to either verify that story or will shoot it down.
ALLEN: Well, this of course was not a surprise death. I mean obviously we've known for a few days now that the end was near. There were a number of people in the pope's apartment when this happened. As you say, over the course of time, based on various reports we hear from various people, you know, we will be able to piece together exactly what happened. As you and I talked about earlier, Bill, you know the reality is, whether or not his last word was "amen" and we will eventually of course know that with some certainty, it certainly is symbolically appropriate, yes to life, yes to death.
HEMMER: John Allen, thanks. We'll talk again, our Vatican analyst here. You've been terrific today, very educational as we go through this process, thank you John.
We do not have a firm schedule. We expect perhaps tomorrow the Vatican will give us official word on the funeral, on the burial and when the conclave of cardinals, that giant meeting to select the next lead of the Roman Catholic Church, will begin here in the Vatican. Back in a moment here, live in Italy, after this.
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HEMMER: We remember now the extraordinary life of Pope John Paul II. You can see the pilgrims still gathered there in St. Peter's Square as they have been for the better part of this day. That crowd has ebbed and flowed and throughout the day, we've watched it continue to grow, really going back about the past hour and a half, the crowd again amassing down there in St. Peter's Square. Nothing scheduled there, nothing official. In fact it's been about 5 1/2 hours since the last mass ended there. But still they come and they come by the thousands here to pay respects to Pope John Paul II.
I'm Bill Hemmer again live here at the Vatican. Soledad O'Brien back in New York. And Soledad, hello again to you.
O'BRIEN: Good morning to you again, Bill. Thanks a lot. Let's take a look at what's going to happen here in the United States, reaction to the pope's death, also what's going to happen over the next few days and weeks. Today in St. Peter's Basilica as you have seen pictures there, the pilgrims there praying for the pope's soul.
On Monday, the first general congregation of cardinals will determine the time of his burial. Tomorrow afternoon, the pope is going to lie in state for public viewing in St. Peter's Basilica. He's going to be buried sometime between Wednesday and Friday. The pope traditionally is buried in St. Peter's Basilica. His coffin would be lowed into a marble sarcophagus and then covered by a stone. A large funeral mass will be held 10 days after the pope's death.
The next pope will be chosen by 117 cardinals who will gather at the Vatican. The votes take place inside the famous Sistine Chapel with its ceiling mural by Michelangelo. Black smoke will rise from the chimney each time the ballots (UNINTELLIGIBLE). When a new pope has been elected finally, the smoke will be white. The conclave of the college of cardinals must begin 15 days after the pope's death but not more than 20 days later. They'll be locked into the Sistine Chapel for the debating and the voting and sequestered if they need to sleep. Security very tight, no mobile phones, no electronic bugging will be allowed during the conclave.
Regardless of their religious faith, many Americans are remembering Pope John Paul II today. CNN's Peter Viles is at the cathedral of Our Lady of Angels in Los Angeles, the nation's largest Catholic archdiocese. And Kelly Wallace is in front of St. Patrick's cathedral right here in New York City. Peter, let's begin with you, good morning.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. It is a time of mourning here in Los Angeles, but not without some levity in the cathedral behind me. The funeral masses or the masses of mourning for the pope began last evening. They continue today, about 2,000 people are worshiping at the moment. Yesterday some interesting remarks from the pastor of the cathedral here, Monsignor Kevin Kostelnik about the pope, about meeting the pope, how nervous he was and how the pope put him at ease.
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MONSIGNOR KEVIN KOSTELNIK, CATHEDRAL OF OUR LADY OF THE ANGELS: We walked into the chapel. There were about 30 other guests. I remember sitting down and looking 10 feet away at the holy father and he had his hands in his face and he was groaning and grunting and twice I heard him say, Jesus, and I thought he's really talking with God. Then the pope came in and all of us applauded and the holy father came first to Archbishop Mahoney. The arch bishop greeted him, introduced me. This is the first thing the pope said. Archbishop Mahoney, how is Hollywood? How is Hollywood? Did I ever breathe a sigh of relief.
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VILES: A wonderful remembrance from Monsignor Kevin Kostelnik here at the cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in Los Angeles. Again, a mass for the pope at the moment, about 2,000 people in this large cathedral which the pope never visited. It's only two years old. Another mass at 10:00 here Los Angeles time expected overflow crowds for that next mass of 3,000 in excess of that. Soledad, back to you.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Peter Viles reporting from Los Angeles for us this morning. Peter, thanks. Let's get right to Kelly Wallace, same scene here in New York City, several masses being held today at St. Patrick's Cathedral. Hey Kelly, good morning again. KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again, Soledad and overflow crowds here as well giving you a sign of the outpouring of grief. I'm going it step out of the shot so Ken can zoom in. You can see all the people are coming out of the cathedral right now. Many people were gathering outside the cathedral because they couldn't get inside. More than 2000 people packing inside for what is the second of three special masses at this majestic cathedral sitting really in the heart of midtown Manhattan, a place that Pope John Paul II visited during his two visits to New York City in 1979 and 1995.
Inside a mass led by Cardinal Egan, some dignitaries on hand including former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, also U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan. And there Cardinal Egan talked about how he was so inspired by the pope, how he faced down dictators, how he fought for justice, how he was a great leader. But then he said, there is something else that really inspired him and why he believes the pope was really a, quote, humble giant especially in his final years.
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CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: I was never inspired by him so much as when seemingly brought low by physical weakness, he continued to proclaim the gospel as best he could and feed his flock.
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WALLACE: And Cardinal Egan will be on hand this afternoon, 2:00 p.m., a special mass in Polish in honor of the pope. And Soledad, we understand the cardinal will do another mass tomorrow before leaving for Rome on Tuesday.
O'BRIEN: That's right, Kelly. He's going to be one of 117 cardinals who will be involved in the picking of the next pope. Has he spoken about that at all? I mean one has to imagine it is a pretty tremendous honor and yet burden at the same time.
WALLACE: He hasn't, in fact. I don't believe he held a news conference yesterday and I don't really believe he was asked about that. Of course this news conference coming just hours, really, after the news that Pope John Paul II had passed. We have talked, Soledad, the two of us, about the relationship. Cardinal Egan knew the pope very well. He studied in Rome in the '60s and in the '70s and he talked about how he was on hand when he was named bishop of Rome and that Cardinal Egan, his job at the time, was to guard all the cardinals.
He said he really didn't know what to do with that but he did his best. And he talked about how he saw the measure of a man and how he said that everyone was so proud of him that they knew even then he was something special, so no surprise at all to all of the lengths and all the achievements that he has pursued and achieved. Soledad.
O'BRIEN: It's sort of funny, just sort of picture Cardinal Egan guarding all the other cardinals as well. All right. Kelly, thanks for that update from St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City.
Let's turn to Carol now. You've been e-mailing, getting some of the e-mails that folks have had with their responses about what they thought of Pope John Paul II's passing as well.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: As you know from our viewers, they always have opinions about everything. I wanted to mention this new CNN/"USA Today" poll. It was just released today. It says two-thirds and I'm reading this right off the wire here, two-thirds of American Catholics believe Pope John Paul II will go down in history as one of the greatest popes. Again that's according to a CNN/"USA Today" Gallup poll just released today.
When you talk of the pope's mystique, perhaps Bendina (ph) from Arizona describes it best. She's the mother of eight children and she's not even Catholic. She wanted to meet one person in her life, not a rock star or a movie star, but Pope John Paul.
We're struggling to divine the why of that this morning. The question how will history remember Pope John Paul II? All right. Let's get right to our e-mails now. This is from Joe. He says this pope, while a very engaging and affable human being was too far out of step with the beliefs of the vast majority of Catholics to be relevant to them and to further the true mission of the church and Christ.
From Bill from Ontario, I feel that Pope John Paul II's greatest legacy perhaps was the way he talked and exemplified to both young and old the way in which we should cherish life right up until his last breath, we take, no matter the cross we carry just as Christ did.
This is from Donald from Freeport in the Bahamas. He says history will remember John Paul II as a man who reached the pinnacle of the Roman Catholic Church, walked with kings, queens and princes, but did not lose touch with the poor and the down trod.
And finally this from KP. As a follower of the Sikh faith, I admired the holy father's efforts to reach out to other faith traditions. He reminded and inspired us all to widen the circle of life and love that may embrace all God's children.
O'BRIEN: Many of the themes that we've been hearing not only from our viewers this morning but others as well. Carol, thanks.
Let's go right back to Rome and Bill Hemmer. Bill, good morning again.
HEMMER: Soledad, thanks. Yeah, here in Rome, it's come up at about 6:00 in the evening here. We're just seeing some new videotape, Soledad. Just to give our viewers a better understanding of this, we saw on Vatican television today a public viewing for a select group of people invited here to the Vatican. This, however, was a viewing that took place prior to that time. So we're talking about two separate viewings in one day today.
We're told that this is a collection of dignitaries possibly cardinals, archbishops who have come here, kissing him on the forehead and giving their last respects. This was done, Soledad, in a private chapel, but still in that same building known as the palace in the area where Pope John Paul II has spent the last 26 years of his life and where it ended last evening here in Rome. This was in the private chapel before it was moved to Clementine Hall. Clementine Hall was that beautifully ornate room that we have been watching throughout the afternoon. So this is the first time we've seen this videotape, so two viewings. We wanted to share that with our views. Back to Rome in a moment here right after this.
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O'BRIEN: The next generation, Pope John Paul II's 26th tenure has inspired legions of young men studying for the priesthood and joining us this morning, three students from the Immaculate Conception Seminary at Seton Hall University in New Jersey. Nice to see you gentlemen. We have Esterminio Chica (ph), seminary student, also Mark Ivany joining us this morning and Charles Cortinovis joining us as well. Thanks for being with us. Let's begin with you, Mark. You said that learning about the pope's upbringing made this tremendous impact on you. Why?
MARK IVANY, SEMINARY STUDENT: Interesting, you know, looking back on the pope's life, obviously, all the interviews and things we've been seeing in the media now, has really brought to mind how rough his upbringing was, especially losing his mother, his older brother at a very young age.
O'BRIEN: His suffering really was life long. Many of us look sort of to his illness but actually he had a very tough childhood as well.
IVANY: Many people say that the entire time you know the holy spirit was really preparing him for what he needed to do in, during his papacy. I believe that to be very true.
O'BRIEN: As you well know, the pope targeted young people. We saw some of the pictures from back I think in 1993 in Denver. As young seminarians, what appealed to you about the pope?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He challenged us. He challenged us.
O'BRIEN: In what way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said, take advantage of the precious youth. He said don't waste any time of it. You know, answer the call, make a choice, as soon as possible. Be salt and light of the earth. That was his message in 2002 in Toronto. He said don't let the world compete for your soul. Jesus want yours soul.
O'BRIEN: He really sort of modernized the idea of temptation to some degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
O'BRIEN: which I think for many previous popes was sort of set back for young people kind of hard to get their minds around. Charles, I'm curious to know what you think of the numbers. There's a crisis -- I'm not the first person to bring this up -- in the church. The numbers of parishioners growing but the number of actual clergy diminishing. How do you fix that? How do you change that?
CHARLES CORTINOVIS, SEMINARY STUDENT: I think it really is an individual basis. Every diocese is slightly different. For example in Washington where we're studying from, we've had a fair number of seminarians enter the past several years. I believe we had 13 this past year and even more in years past. So certain dioceses are doing better than others. But I think the key is to make sure that young people realize that if they're called to the priesthood by the holy spirit and by Jesus Christ, that's what they'll be happy doing. And to make it, just to make a normal occupation that that's what, if that's what you're called to do, then go ahead and do it, don't be afraid as the pope himself said.
O'BRIEN: You were an attorney.
CORTINOVIS: I was.
O'BRIEN: Explain the -- you were called to be an attorney first and then you were called to the priesthood. Was there something about this pope that made you change your calling? I'm being of course facetious about the calling to be an attorney.
CORTINOVIS: Well, he's obviously been a great example always. His perseverance, his faith and his love for everyone, there's just, you know, wonderful examples of what the priesthood should be. I also had many wonderful example of priests locally in Washington, D.C. who inspired me by their example to make me want to enter the seminary.
O'BRIEN: Some of the criticism, of course, about the pope was that he was very, very strict, that there was no dealing liberally with a changing world, especially I think from American Catholics who sort of said, we're still arguing about birth control. We're still arguing about abortion. These are all issues that have moved forward and the pope's not moving with them. How do you answer people who bring that -- it can't be the first time you've heard these. How do you answer that?
IVANY: For myself, actually, the pope's ability, his courage to stay with the truth, with the true teaching of the Catholic Church despite all of those things -- the pope is very well aware of western Europe, the situations in America, especially in Canada and his courage to stay with the truth and to never water it down while preaching it with compassion and love, inspired me and gave me -- gave me the courage to answer my call.
O'BRIEN: Thank you all for coming in to talk to us about it. We certainly appreciate it. We have our seminary students talking to us. A short break ahead. We continue our special coverage of AMERICAN MORNING right after this. Stay with us.
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HEMMER: As Christians from around the world on this Sunday attended their own respective church around the globe, this is what mass look like today in St. Peter's Square, 50,000 strong coming to pay their respects on this Sunday. It ended about six hours ago but it is the first of many masses we will see in the coming week. Let's listen here for a minute and watch the images from Vatican City.
And throughout this square, there are these four giant video monitors in each corner of St. Peter's and every time the image of the pope is put up on those giant video screens, you can hear the wave of applause ripple its way through the crowd there, 50,000 strong again as I mentioned earlier, a true sense of spirit today in Vatican City. Soledad?
O'BRIEN: Well, Bill, in his tenure as Pope John Paul II built a reputation as a communicator who virtually redefined the role of pontiff. David Van Biema is the religion writer for "Time" magazine. He covered the pope for a number of years. You wrote an obituary in "Time" magazine was I thought incredibly moving and one of your first lines was talking about the reparations (ph) of the death of the pope and the life of the pope almost comparing it to like a bomb essentially. What do you mean?
DAVID VAN BIEMA, RELIGION WRITER, TIME MAGAZINE: He wrote a poem very early on -- he was a poet as well as everything else and talked about the truth exploding like a bomb and his version of the truth really did explode through our age. From the very -- I mean from early on before he became pope and almost immediately he became pope, his -- he made an almost immediate impact in terms of international affairs and exposed a very great truth with regard to communism and then subsequently went on to speak extraordinarily strongly to a world that didn't necessarily always agree with everything that he said, but was kind of in love with his saying it to them.
O'BRIEN: It kin of defines I think the relationship with American Catholics and the pope, to some degree and again you write about that in this obituary in "Time" magazine as well that Americans love the pope and yet could easily say, but I disagree on this and I disagree on this and I disagree on that.
VAN BIEMA: That's right. I mean I think that the thing about him was, you know, if you take religion in college or something like that, they tell you that what's its purpose? It gives people's lives meaning. You hear that and talk about the new age. Well, it gives peoples' lives meaning. You looked at this guy and you saw it giving meaning. There was no moment in his life that he didn't seem to have two things happening both what was go on that that moment and the way he saw it spinning forward and spinning upward. And that's very, very rare and I think when people talk about his charisma, his ability to communicate, that's really what they're talking about. We all try to -- we're all kind of try to get by, but we all have tremendous admiration and to some degree envy for people whose every moment is dedicated to something greater or something other.
O'BRIEN: Sort of a sense of purpose. How did that play though within the church hierarchy? Did he have -- did some think that he maybe took it too far and maybe in the picking the next pope, dial back, go a different direction in. VAN BIEMA: Well, any long papacy tends to pull power in towards the pope. And his -- in this case was no exception. And there are probably a lot of bishops who feel that they have to some extent been reduced to rubber stamping statements out of Rome. As a matter of fact, you weren't really supposed to talk about something theological until you had cleared it. And I think that one of the likeliest things to happen when the conclave picks the next pope, is that they will try to pick somebody who understands the desire of the bishops for a little bit more autonomy.
O'BRIEN: You also see, I think, certainly in the pilgrims that we've been seeing in these pictures coming to us from St. Peter's Square, the impact his death has had, because there is a big variation in who has come, many non-Catholics, many non-Christians out there as well, mourning, truly mourning the loss of the pope.
VAN BIEMA: Well, again, once more I don't think his that appeal was only to Catholics because of this notion of meaning, that's not just something that's limited to Catholics. That's something that speaks to everybody. And then he visited over 130 countries and when you do that, you make friends.
O'BRIEN: People follow what you do. David Van Biema, nice to just have you talk with us this morning, the religion writer for "Time" magazine. Appreciate your time.
VAN BIEMA: Thanks.
O'BRIEN: As we wrap up our coverage this morning on this extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING, we will continue to of course bring you details on what happens next as the pope obviously has died and now they move forward to the conclave and the cardinals making their decision in Rome. Let's go back to Bill Hemmer in Rome this morning. Bill?
HEMMER: All right Soledad. Thanks. Nine days officially starts the period of mourning for the Vatican. Today is only day one as we reflect and remember and ultimately celebrate the life, the great and extraordinary life of Pope John Paul II. A bit earlier today, I said that Rome is a beautiful city when it's raining. I tell you, it's stunning when it's 65 degree and sunny. And now as we come upon another sunset here for Pope John Paul II on this day of holiness and spirit, the city becomes even more and more beautiful. So we'll pause now and thank our viewers for being along with us today. We'll be back here again tomorrow in the Vatican, remembering the life of Pope John Paul II. Have a good Sunday, everyone and so long from Rome.
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