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American Morning

Visitors Flock to Rome to Mourn Pope John Paul II

Aired April 04, 2005 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, a live picture of the private viewing of Pope John Paul II. This taking place in the Apostolic Palace for the second day in a row now. This particular viewing will last for about two more hours, based on what we're getting from the Vatican. These are dignitaries, friends of the church. Also, about 1,000 people live and work at the Vatican. They have been invited, as well, to bring along family members and pay their final respects for the pope and the past 26 years that he has served here at Vatican City.
We're getting more information, too, about the rest of the week. We can tell you, as far as the rest of the day is concerned, at around 4:45 local time, which is about two hours and 15 minutes from now, there will be a public procession in which the pope's body will be taken from the current palace and he will proceed out into the area of St. Peter's Square before entering the main doors in the St. Peter's basilica, where he will lie in state at about 5:00 local time which, by the watch, is about two and a half hours from now. 2:30 local time now. And that's when the public will get their chance to come in and pay their final respects to Pope John Paul II.

Well, I had a rather extraordinary opportunity earlier today to pass along the line with so many thousands of other people to observe the pope's body and to see where he is lying in state. It was a remarkable and very spiritual moment, when you consider the environment and the atmosphere. With so many people around you. And also, the tears in the faces of so many after they pay their final respects and walk away. And doing it in the area that it's done, it's a remarkable building, too, that has stood about 450 years here in the Vatican. And that is where we find his body again today.

Father Jonathan Morris is back with me here in Rome. And I want to say good afternoon to you. Thanks for your time.

REV. JONATHAN MORRIS, LEGIONNAIRES OF CHRIST SEMINARY: You're welcome.

HEMMER: You've been very gracious throughout the entire week. Based on the funeral that we now know will take place Friday and based on the number of pilgrims who are expected to come here, upwards of 2 million, is anything surprising you yet based on the news out of the Vatican? Oftentimes we talk about being so secretive for so long and then the news flows like an avalanche, as it has for the past two hours.

MORRIS: It certainly has. I think all of us are extremely grateful. I was coming back from "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. I mean, this parking structure and this family comes up to me. This is 4:00 in the morning, Rome time. He says I just came -- we're coming off a bus from Sicily. They had come all these hours to Sicily. We stand in line because we want to see John Paul II. They had received the information and they were coming and I said no, no, it's 5:00 in the evening, not 5:00 in the morning. We're willing to stand in line, we don't care if we're the first or the last. We're going to be there.

HEMMER: Well, it appears that...

MORRIS: Information has been very fluid.

HEMMER: Yes, there will be about four and a half days for the public to pass through. And it will be an extraordinary sight again, as we move through the week. You helped train young priests today.

MORRIS: That's right.

HEMMER: What lessons do you want them to know about this man, his life and his service?

MORRIS: John Paul II has spoken out extremely clearly and strongly to those of us who are working in seminary formation and to those who are candidates for the priesthood. What he said is we need integral formation. What does that mean? It means before becoming a good priest, you have to become a good guy. You have to be a good man. That's what integral formation means, that there's not room in the priesthood for people who aren't called to the priesthood.

My role in informing priests and I think all of us who are trying to about good priests, with all of our failures and times we've messed up in the past, is to try to be an example of what Christ would be. John Paul II has done that and we're very grateful to him.

HEMMER: Earlier today, the first meeting took place. About 65 cardinals in all at the Vatican. There's word about a secret cardinal being appointed by this pope before he passed away. What more can add on that? And is that significant in any sense, when you consider the conclave that will begin in about two weeks?

MORRIS: I would say it's not -- most likely it's not very significant, in terms of numbers, if you're trying to add up numbers to try to come up with a prediction. But it is significant because John Paul II has personally chose him. John Paul II has chosen him most likely in a country where the church is persecuted, although we don't know that for sure. But the church is persecuted and this man is very much in line with John Paul II and it's going to be exciting to see who that is.

HEMMER: So you don't know who this is?

MORRIS: No, no.

HEMMER: But you're indicating it's a country of persecution, which would be what? MORRIS: It could be China, it could be Vietnam. We don't know exactly. But we know is it's called in impectore (ph), which actually means from the heart. In other words, he's been chosen, but it's secret. Nobody knows about it.

HEMMER: At what point does it become public?

MORRIS: Well, he could be at the conclave or perhaps he won't be. We'll see.

HEMMER: Jonathan Morris, thank you, Father. Good to see you again here.

HEMMER: We do expect the funeral at 10:00 a.m. Friday morning here in Rome. Carol, that's at the end of the week. And really, Carol, for that matter, that's the outside date that's given based on church law. They say the funeral must take place between day four and day six. This will happen on day six, at the end of the week on Friday, Carol. Back to you now in New York.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you, Bill. There's other news of the day. Let's get a check on the headlines making news with Kelly Wallace, good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Carol. Good morning again, everyone. And here are some of those other stories "Now in the News."

Word this morning the last phase of Syria's troop withdrawal from Lebanon will soon get underway. A Lebanese military source saying the pull-out will start on Thursday and would be finished by April 30th. Some 8,000 troops are involved in that withdrawal.

More accusations against Michael Jackson are expected to be introduced today. Prosecutors say they will show evidence the pop star has a history of improper behavior with young boys. At least one of five boys alleging abuse is expected to take the stand. Some of Jackson's fans say they plan to hold a vigil before court resumes on this day.

In sports, we're talking baseball. Baseball's best known rivals faced off. The Yankees opening the season with a 9-2 win over the reigning champs, the Boston Red Sox. One of our producers, Ted Stein (ph), will be happy. In his debut for New York, Randy Johnson recorded the 247th victory of his career.

And Pennsylvania governor declaring a state of emergency in parts of the state because of flooding and snow. Hundreds of homes have been evacuated because of high water. Flood warnings are still in effect. Flood waters also forcing out thousands in New Jersey. Officials say some residents may be able to return later today.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: Back here to Rome now. Want to bring in Charles Sennott, a writer for the "Boston Globe," with me in Rome. And we've talked many times over the weekend. What did you write in the "Boston Globe" today to tell your readers back in Boston?

CHARLES SENNOTT, "BOSTON GLOBE": Well, we're basically continuing to try our best to convey to our readers the enormity of this moment, to say today, when the pope will be lying in state, the whole world is coming here to pay its respects to this pope and really 26 years of an extraordinary papacy. I think whether you're Catholic or not -- and we have a lot of Catholics in Boston...

HEMMER: Certainly do.

SENNOTT: It is a moment that we need to capture because this man has had such a wonderful life. And everyone's been touched by it in every corner of the earth, whether you're Catholic or not. And that's a challenge to write about. It's a challenge to find the people on the street who can bring those voices out and that's really what we're covering right now.

HEMMER: Charles, he has been your main subject for years. Let's talk about a high point and let's talk a low point and then we'll figure out from this low point, where the church goes from there. The Middle East is a high point. Why?

MORRIS: Well, in the year 2000, the jubilee year, as he called it, the pope made a very historic pilgrimage to the holy land. And this was the strength of this man, in all of its intensity. Because when he was there as a pilgrim, he was stooped, he was frail, he was elderly. The Parkinsons was beginning to take hold. But he walked that mile of pilgrimage. He went to the stations of the cross, at the Villa de Rosa in Jerusalem, on this ancient cobblestones where the church began. This is where the Christian church is formed.

He went to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, as tradition holds it. And when he was there, he did an amazing thing, which is for any world figure to go into that cauldron of the Middle East and capture the hearts of all sides is an extraordinary moment. He spoke about the need for the Catholic Church to ask for forgiveness from Israeli and from Judaism for its history of anti-semitism. He confronted that directly, powerfully, and emotionally.

Then he also went to Bethlehem and the West Bank and talked about the need for justice for the Palestinians and he captured their hearts. And this was a man who managed to leave the Middle East, to leave Jerusalem, this place of great conflict, with a message of hope, with a message of forgiveness, and with a message about the need for more inter-faith dialogue. And I think that captured the essence of his papacy.

HEMMER: And his message, too, in so many ways. The low point reflects very much on the American Catholic church. How do you believe you can interpret now the way he acted, the way he responded when the crisis broke in the United States and would you say that is the low point of the papacy?

SENNOTT: I don't think it was a point of his papacy that registers on the radar screen of all of the many things that happened, to be honest. I think it's very much on the periphery. But I do think it reveals an important moment in his papacy. And that is that when we came here, dealing with this horrible sexual abuse scandal that -- of course, Boston was the emotional ground zero for this scandal. It's where the most horrific cases happened, it's where the biggest lawsuits happened, it had a terribly damaging effect on the diocese of Boston. It resulted in the resignation or the stepping down of Cardinal Law.

That was a moment of crisis. The pope did his best to confront it, but there are many people, who, if you talk to them privately here, from the hierarchy down to the really great Vatican experts, they'll tell you, of all of the extraordinary strengths of this pope, he may have had one weakness. And that was governance. An inability to pay attention to the very nitty-gritty, close detail of what was going on in the diocese in this case of Boston.

And did he lose control there a bit, in his travels all over the world, in this tremendous ability to reach out? Was he sacrificing something? Yes, inevitably. And that was maybe not sitting behind the desk enough, not looking at the portfolios of the different bishops and it played out in Boston.

HEMMER: Is the next pope, then, going to do more of that, would you anticipate? Is that what college of cardinals is looking for?

SENNOTT: I think there are a lot of people here who would say yes. The issue of governance will be a central issue. There's a feeling now that this church, the Holy Sea right now, needs someone who can be a strong leader and who could really pull together governance in a new way. Now what will that mean? Some say loosen it up, give more control to the local diocese. Others say no, consolidate power, bring it in tighter, and run it as a tighter ship. Where that goes, we'll find out what the cardinals vote.

HEMMER: We will. Two weeks and counting. Charles Sennott, thanks again. From the "Boston Globe." Thank you.

Our coverage continues live from Rome in a moment here on this "AMERICAN MORNING" right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The next pope could come from any corner of the globe. There are over one billion Catholics in the world, most of them four hundred, three -- let's see. You can see the graphic up there. 403 million live in Latin America. Europe has 271 million and 122 million live in Africa. Will population influence the cardinals' choice?

Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete joins us now. He's a professor of theology at St. Joseph's Seminary, as well as a friend of Pope John Paul II. Welcome, Monsignor.

MSGR. LORENZO ALBACETE, "NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE": Thank you very much.

COSTELLO: Before we begin, I'd like you to take -- I'd like you to take a look at another graphic. Let's look at this screen together, shall we? This shows the percent increase of Catholics in certain regions of the world since Pope John Paul came into power in 1978. Catholics increased by 90 percent in Central America, up 87 percent in South America. And up 137 percent in Africa. Those are amazing increases.

ALBACETE: Yes.

COSTELLO: Why the large increases in these particular countries?

ALBACETE: I would say because the -- especially in Latin America, what was a cultural Catholicism began to, through very many ways, because of the physical presence of this pope, and I underline physical, it's not enough simply to just send messages or say beautiful things, but to be there, to physically share the life. The church began to share physically the life of the masses of people. They were the so-called preferential option for the poor. And even, also, which is not in contradiction with the faith in Christ, became a matter of a presence of accompaniment and not just some abstraction.

COSTELLO: So because he was so well-traveled, because he was actually there, could any other pope have accomplished this?

ALBACETE: Again, I have no idea. I would say that his style, the temperament, was absolutely essential. But I will -- OK, I'm going to tell you I don't know, but I will risk saying no. Because I think for us, a person's temperament and style is part of the experience of faith. So I think that's what it means to be chosen, to choose the right man for the right place.

COSTELLO: I understand.

ALBACETE: So I would say no.

COSTELLO: I understand, too, that Fidel Castro once asked you why so many Catholics lived in Cuba.

ALBACETE: No, Fidel Castro asked me why do so many converts -- more in Africa than in Asia? And I said because the religious mentality in Asia is other worldly. God is found by going away by going away from this world. In Africa, it's found in things of this world and Christianity belong to the latter. After all, we -- our main claim is that the mystery called God became a human being.

COSTELLO: I understand. OK, we're going to take another look at a graphic, OK? This is a map. Of the 117 voting cardinals, 58 are from Europe, 21 from Latin America, 14 are from North America. Asia and the Middle East have a total of 11. So does Africa. The Australian continent has two. Given this make up, would it be possible to get a pope from Latin America or from Africa or do these numbers even matter?

ALBACETE: No, I don't think the numbers matter too much. And the answer is yes, however, it would be possible. They are looking for experience. If the guy who has what appears to be the experience to deal with the 21st century world, which is different from the 20th century, comes from Iceland, they'll elect somebody from Iceland. First, the experience. Can this guy do this job? Does he have the understanding, everything we need? And then you look around for, you know, whoever can fit those shoes.

COSTELLO: So where does the most charismatic man come from that might be elected pope?

ALBACETE: Obviously, I think, given the global interest, the situations in the world, the challenges coming, the most charismatic figure would emerge from those areas, from Africa, Asia or Latin America.

COSTELLO: So if you were a betting man -- are you a betting man?

ALBACETE: It would be within reason.

COSTELLO: OK, within reason, as a betting man.

ALBACETE: Does reason have anything to do with this at all?

COSTELLO: As a betting man, who do you think will be the next pope? Where will he come from?

ALBACETE: I don't know, really. You can imagine how I have thought about this. It concerns me very directly. But I don't know. Right now, I expect to be surprised. I started out convinced that it would be an Italian, because I sensed the mood is to calm down a bit, you know, just a little while to digest what has happened. But now, I'm no longer that convinced. I think I detect the energy to go ahead with another bold move.

COSTELLO: What will that bold move be? Come on, take a chance.

ALBACETE: No, no. Well, OK, I will take a chance and I will still stick with the old. I think it will be an Italian.

COSTELLO: You do?

ALBACETE: Yes.

COSTELLO: OK, Monsignor, thank you for joining us this morning.

ALBACETE: Thank you. Now, watch it. I lose all my money. Don't bet on this to the viewers. Don't bet on this at all, all right, please?

COSTELLO: It's hard not to believe a man in a collar.

ALBACETE: We're not talking about that.

COSTELLO: Thank you, Monsignor. We appreciate it.

Millions of pilgrims expected to flood into the Vatican to pay their respects. Their own personal stories of the people's pope -- that's just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. It's time for -- time to check in with Jack, because he's got loads of new information for us this morning.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Taser's in trouble again. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Thank you, Jack.

That's correct. Yesterday the stock was down 13 percent. And it's gone from 30 to 10 this year. Why? The company says bad publicity. And you know what? They're right. Yesterday, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which is the largest such organization, urged caution by police forces around the country, saying that these stun guns are much more dangerous than people had realized initially.

Cases where they used it on a 6-year-old boy, a 12-year-old female truant, there a death in Chicago by the police there. Reports of dozens of deaths, in fact. So that stock is really under a lot of pressure, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Didn't old Bernie Kerik make a lot of money with that taser stock?

SERWER: He was on the board of that, that is correct.

Let's talk about the markets very quickly. Yesterday, a down day and in fact, a down week for the markets, except for the S&P, up a little bit. Nasdaq, below 2,000. A couple points here, quickly. The Nasdaq is having a moment of silence in honor of the pope at 11:00. How can you have a moment of silence if you're an electronic exchange? I don't understand that. The NYSE is not having a moment of silence.

CAFFERTY: And they're not in electronics.

SERWER And they're not. They can and they're not. The others one, you get the picture.

CAFFERTY: I got it.

SERWER: And then finally, Chevron Texaco is buying Unocal.

CAFFERTY: That's a big deal.

SERWER: That is a big deal. $18 billion deal.

CAFFERTY: They've been trying to put that together a while.

SERWER: Exactly.

CAFFERTY: Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

CAFFERTY: Time for "The File." A couple of pope-related items. He was a man of peace, but Pope John Paul II also understood the importance of the military. He gave his blessing to President Reagan's plans to put nuclear-tipped minuteman missiles all across western Europe as a response to communist Russia's nuclear arsenal across the Soviet bloc.

Jim Nicholson, who served until recently as President Bush's ambassador to the Holy See, told Fox News Sunday yesterday, "President Reagan regularly sent military emissaries to show the pope satellite imagery of the Soviet missiles being spread across occupied Europe."

And I like this. Rock star Bono paid tribute to the pope on Sunday, saying, "He had mischief in his eyes, as well as godliness. If the Catholic Church is the glam rock of religion, this guy was the most vivid of performers, the best frontman the Catholic Church ever had." The pope met in 1999 with Bono and some other pop stars and workers and economists and they put together this idea that rich nations would write off third world debt. Bono said his Drop the Debt movement would never have been successful if it hadn't been for the Holy Father's involvement. The best frontman the Catholic Church ever had.

SERWER: He's got a way with words.

CAFFERTY: Yeah, doesn't he?

COSTELLO: Well, and a lot of people would agree with him, as well.

SERWER: Yes.

COSTELLO: Absolutely.

Our special live coverage from Rome continues in a moment. Religious leaders, diplomats and some journalists, including our own Bill Hemmer, paying their respects to Pope John Paul II. This is "AMERICAN MORNING," live from New York and from Rome.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 4, 2005 - 08:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Once again, a live picture of the private viewing of Pope John Paul II. This taking place in the Apostolic Palace for the second day in a row now. This particular viewing will last for about two more hours, based on what we're getting from the Vatican. These are dignitaries, friends of the church. Also, about 1,000 people live and work at the Vatican. They have been invited, as well, to bring along family members and pay their final respects for the pope and the past 26 years that he has served here at Vatican City.
We're getting more information, too, about the rest of the week. We can tell you, as far as the rest of the day is concerned, at around 4:45 local time, which is about two hours and 15 minutes from now, there will be a public procession in which the pope's body will be taken from the current palace and he will proceed out into the area of St. Peter's Square before entering the main doors in the St. Peter's basilica, where he will lie in state at about 5:00 local time which, by the watch, is about two and a half hours from now. 2:30 local time now. And that's when the public will get their chance to come in and pay their final respects to Pope John Paul II.

Well, I had a rather extraordinary opportunity earlier today to pass along the line with so many thousands of other people to observe the pope's body and to see where he is lying in state. It was a remarkable and very spiritual moment, when you consider the environment and the atmosphere. With so many people around you. And also, the tears in the faces of so many after they pay their final respects and walk away. And doing it in the area that it's done, it's a remarkable building, too, that has stood about 450 years here in the Vatican. And that is where we find his body again today.

Father Jonathan Morris is back with me here in Rome. And I want to say good afternoon to you. Thanks for your time.

REV. JONATHAN MORRIS, LEGIONNAIRES OF CHRIST SEMINARY: You're welcome.

HEMMER: You've been very gracious throughout the entire week. Based on the funeral that we now know will take place Friday and based on the number of pilgrims who are expected to come here, upwards of 2 million, is anything surprising you yet based on the news out of the Vatican? Oftentimes we talk about being so secretive for so long and then the news flows like an avalanche, as it has for the past two hours.

MORRIS: It certainly has. I think all of us are extremely grateful. I was coming back from "LARRY KING LIVE" last night. I mean, this parking structure and this family comes up to me. This is 4:00 in the morning, Rome time. He says I just came -- we're coming off a bus from Sicily. They had come all these hours to Sicily. We stand in line because we want to see John Paul II. They had received the information and they were coming and I said no, no, it's 5:00 in the evening, not 5:00 in the morning. We're willing to stand in line, we don't care if we're the first or the last. We're going to be there.

HEMMER: Well, it appears that...

MORRIS: Information has been very fluid.

HEMMER: Yes, there will be about four and a half days for the public to pass through. And it will be an extraordinary sight again, as we move through the week. You helped train young priests today.

MORRIS: That's right.

HEMMER: What lessons do you want them to know about this man, his life and his service?

MORRIS: John Paul II has spoken out extremely clearly and strongly to those of us who are working in seminary formation and to those who are candidates for the priesthood. What he said is we need integral formation. What does that mean? It means before becoming a good priest, you have to become a good guy. You have to be a good man. That's what integral formation means, that there's not room in the priesthood for people who aren't called to the priesthood.

My role in informing priests and I think all of us who are trying to about good priests, with all of our failures and times we've messed up in the past, is to try to be an example of what Christ would be. John Paul II has done that and we're very grateful to him.

HEMMER: Earlier today, the first meeting took place. About 65 cardinals in all at the Vatican. There's word about a secret cardinal being appointed by this pope before he passed away. What more can add on that? And is that significant in any sense, when you consider the conclave that will begin in about two weeks?

MORRIS: I would say it's not -- most likely it's not very significant, in terms of numbers, if you're trying to add up numbers to try to come up with a prediction. But it is significant because John Paul II has personally chose him. John Paul II has chosen him most likely in a country where the church is persecuted, although we don't know that for sure. But the church is persecuted and this man is very much in line with John Paul II and it's going to be exciting to see who that is.

HEMMER: So you don't know who this is?

MORRIS: No, no.

HEMMER: But you're indicating it's a country of persecution, which would be what? MORRIS: It could be China, it could be Vietnam. We don't know exactly. But we know is it's called in impectore (ph), which actually means from the heart. In other words, he's been chosen, but it's secret. Nobody knows about it.

HEMMER: At what point does it become public?

MORRIS: Well, he could be at the conclave or perhaps he won't be. We'll see.

HEMMER: Jonathan Morris, thank you, Father. Good to see you again here.

HEMMER: We do expect the funeral at 10:00 a.m. Friday morning here in Rome. Carol, that's at the end of the week. And really, Carol, for that matter, that's the outside date that's given based on church law. They say the funeral must take place between day four and day six. This will happen on day six, at the end of the week on Friday, Carol. Back to you now in New York.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, thank you, Bill. There's other news of the day. Let's get a check on the headlines making news with Kelly Wallace, good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Carol. Good morning again, everyone. And here are some of those other stories "Now in the News."

Word this morning the last phase of Syria's troop withdrawal from Lebanon will soon get underway. A Lebanese military source saying the pull-out will start on Thursday and would be finished by April 30th. Some 8,000 troops are involved in that withdrawal.

More accusations against Michael Jackson are expected to be introduced today. Prosecutors say they will show evidence the pop star has a history of improper behavior with young boys. At least one of five boys alleging abuse is expected to take the stand. Some of Jackson's fans say they plan to hold a vigil before court resumes on this day.

In sports, we're talking baseball. Baseball's best known rivals faced off. The Yankees opening the season with a 9-2 win over the reigning champs, the Boston Red Sox. One of our producers, Ted Stein (ph), will be happy. In his debut for New York, Randy Johnson recorded the 247th victory of his career.

And Pennsylvania governor declaring a state of emergency in parts of the state because of flooding and snow. Hundreds of homes have been evacuated because of high water. Flood warnings are still in effect. Flood waters also forcing out thousands in New Jersey. Officials say some residents may be able to return later today.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: Back here to Rome now. Want to bring in Charles Sennott, a writer for the "Boston Globe," with me in Rome. And we've talked many times over the weekend. What did you write in the "Boston Globe" today to tell your readers back in Boston?

CHARLES SENNOTT, "BOSTON GLOBE": Well, we're basically continuing to try our best to convey to our readers the enormity of this moment, to say today, when the pope will be lying in state, the whole world is coming here to pay its respects to this pope and really 26 years of an extraordinary papacy. I think whether you're Catholic or not -- and we have a lot of Catholics in Boston...

HEMMER: Certainly do.

SENNOTT: It is a moment that we need to capture because this man has had such a wonderful life. And everyone's been touched by it in every corner of the earth, whether you're Catholic or not. And that's a challenge to write about. It's a challenge to find the people on the street who can bring those voices out and that's really what we're covering right now.

HEMMER: Charles, he has been your main subject for years. Let's talk about a high point and let's talk a low point and then we'll figure out from this low point, where the church goes from there. The Middle East is a high point. Why?

MORRIS: Well, in the year 2000, the jubilee year, as he called it, the pope made a very historic pilgrimage to the holy land. And this was the strength of this man, in all of its intensity. Because when he was there as a pilgrim, he was stooped, he was frail, he was elderly. The Parkinsons was beginning to take hold. But he walked that mile of pilgrimage. He went to the stations of the cross, at the Villa de Rosa in Jerusalem, on this ancient cobblestones where the church began. This is where the Christian church is formed.

He went to Bethlehem, where Jesus was born, as tradition holds it. And when he was there, he did an amazing thing, which is for any world figure to go into that cauldron of the Middle East and capture the hearts of all sides is an extraordinary moment. He spoke about the need for the Catholic Church to ask for forgiveness from Israeli and from Judaism for its history of anti-semitism. He confronted that directly, powerfully, and emotionally.

Then he also went to Bethlehem and the West Bank and talked about the need for justice for the Palestinians and he captured their hearts. And this was a man who managed to leave the Middle East, to leave Jerusalem, this place of great conflict, with a message of hope, with a message of forgiveness, and with a message about the need for more inter-faith dialogue. And I think that captured the essence of his papacy.

HEMMER: And his message, too, in so many ways. The low point reflects very much on the American Catholic church. How do you believe you can interpret now the way he acted, the way he responded when the crisis broke in the United States and would you say that is the low point of the papacy?

SENNOTT: I don't think it was a point of his papacy that registers on the radar screen of all of the many things that happened, to be honest. I think it's very much on the periphery. But I do think it reveals an important moment in his papacy. And that is that when we came here, dealing with this horrible sexual abuse scandal that -- of course, Boston was the emotional ground zero for this scandal. It's where the most horrific cases happened, it's where the biggest lawsuits happened, it had a terribly damaging effect on the diocese of Boston. It resulted in the resignation or the stepping down of Cardinal Law.

That was a moment of crisis. The pope did his best to confront it, but there are many people, who, if you talk to them privately here, from the hierarchy down to the really great Vatican experts, they'll tell you, of all of the extraordinary strengths of this pope, he may have had one weakness. And that was governance. An inability to pay attention to the very nitty-gritty, close detail of what was going on in the diocese in this case of Boston.

And did he lose control there a bit, in his travels all over the world, in this tremendous ability to reach out? Was he sacrificing something? Yes, inevitably. And that was maybe not sitting behind the desk enough, not looking at the portfolios of the different bishops and it played out in Boston.

HEMMER: Is the next pope, then, going to do more of that, would you anticipate? Is that what college of cardinals is looking for?

SENNOTT: I think there are a lot of people here who would say yes. The issue of governance will be a central issue. There's a feeling now that this church, the Holy Sea right now, needs someone who can be a strong leader and who could really pull together governance in a new way. Now what will that mean? Some say loosen it up, give more control to the local diocese. Others say no, consolidate power, bring it in tighter, and run it as a tighter ship. Where that goes, we'll find out what the cardinals vote.

HEMMER: We will. Two weeks and counting. Charles Sennott, thanks again. From the "Boston Globe." Thank you.

Our coverage continues live from Rome in a moment here on this "AMERICAN MORNING" right after this.

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COSTELLO: The next pope could come from any corner of the globe. There are over one billion Catholics in the world, most of them four hundred, three -- let's see. You can see the graphic up there. 403 million live in Latin America. Europe has 271 million and 122 million live in Africa. Will population influence the cardinals' choice?

Monsignor Lorenzo Albacete joins us now. He's a professor of theology at St. Joseph's Seminary, as well as a friend of Pope John Paul II. Welcome, Monsignor.

MSGR. LORENZO ALBACETE, "NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE": Thank you very much.

COSTELLO: Before we begin, I'd like you to take -- I'd like you to take a look at another graphic. Let's look at this screen together, shall we? This shows the percent increase of Catholics in certain regions of the world since Pope John Paul came into power in 1978. Catholics increased by 90 percent in Central America, up 87 percent in South America. And up 137 percent in Africa. Those are amazing increases.

ALBACETE: Yes.

COSTELLO: Why the large increases in these particular countries?

ALBACETE: I would say because the -- especially in Latin America, what was a cultural Catholicism began to, through very many ways, because of the physical presence of this pope, and I underline physical, it's not enough simply to just send messages or say beautiful things, but to be there, to physically share the life. The church began to share physically the life of the masses of people. They were the so-called preferential option for the poor. And even, also, which is not in contradiction with the faith in Christ, became a matter of a presence of accompaniment and not just some abstraction.

COSTELLO: So because he was so well-traveled, because he was actually there, could any other pope have accomplished this?

ALBACETE: Again, I have no idea. I would say that his style, the temperament, was absolutely essential. But I will -- OK, I'm going to tell you I don't know, but I will risk saying no. Because I think for us, a person's temperament and style is part of the experience of faith. So I think that's what it means to be chosen, to choose the right man for the right place.

COSTELLO: I understand.

ALBACETE: So I would say no.

COSTELLO: I understand, too, that Fidel Castro once asked you why so many Catholics lived in Cuba.

ALBACETE: No, Fidel Castro asked me why do so many converts -- more in Africa than in Asia? And I said because the religious mentality in Asia is other worldly. God is found by going away by going away from this world. In Africa, it's found in things of this world and Christianity belong to the latter. After all, we -- our main claim is that the mystery called God became a human being.

COSTELLO: I understand. OK, we're going to take another look at a graphic, OK? This is a map. Of the 117 voting cardinals, 58 are from Europe, 21 from Latin America, 14 are from North America. Asia and the Middle East have a total of 11. So does Africa. The Australian continent has two. Given this make up, would it be possible to get a pope from Latin America or from Africa or do these numbers even matter?

ALBACETE: No, I don't think the numbers matter too much. And the answer is yes, however, it would be possible. They are looking for experience. If the guy who has what appears to be the experience to deal with the 21st century world, which is different from the 20th century, comes from Iceland, they'll elect somebody from Iceland. First, the experience. Can this guy do this job? Does he have the understanding, everything we need? And then you look around for, you know, whoever can fit those shoes.

COSTELLO: So where does the most charismatic man come from that might be elected pope?

ALBACETE: Obviously, I think, given the global interest, the situations in the world, the challenges coming, the most charismatic figure would emerge from those areas, from Africa, Asia or Latin America.

COSTELLO: So if you were a betting man -- are you a betting man?

ALBACETE: It would be within reason.

COSTELLO: OK, within reason, as a betting man.

ALBACETE: Does reason have anything to do with this at all?

COSTELLO: As a betting man, who do you think will be the next pope? Where will he come from?

ALBACETE: I don't know, really. You can imagine how I have thought about this. It concerns me very directly. But I don't know. Right now, I expect to be surprised. I started out convinced that it would be an Italian, because I sensed the mood is to calm down a bit, you know, just a little while to digest what has happened. But now, I'm no longer that convinced. I think I detect the energy to go ahead with another bold move.

COSTELLO: What will that bold move be? Come on, take a chance.

ALBACETE: No, no. Well, OK, I will take a chance and I will still stick with the old. I think it will be an Italian.

COSTELLO: You do?

ALBACETE: Yes.

COSTELLO: OK, Monsignor, thank you for joining us this morning.

ALBACETE: Thank you. Now, watch it. I lose all my money. Don't bet on this to the viewers. Don't bet on this at all, all right, please?

COSTELLO: It's hard not to believe a man in a collar.

ALBACETE: We're not talking about that.

COSTELLO: Thank you, Monsignor. We appreciate it.

Millions of pilgrims expected to flood into the Vatican to pay their respects. Their own personal stories of the people's pope -- that's just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. It's time for -- time to check in with Jack, because he's got loads of new information for us this morning.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Taser's in trouble again. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Thank you, Jack.

That's correct. Yesterday the stock was down 13 percent. And it's gone from 30 to 10 this year. Why? The company says bad publicity. And you know what? They're right. Yesterday, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, which is the largest such organization, urged caution by police forces around the country, saying that these stun guns are much more dangerous than people had realized initially.

Cases where they used it on a 6-year-old boy, a 12-year-old female truant, there a death in Chicago by the police there. Reports of dozens of deaths, in fact. So that stock is really under a lot of pressure, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Didn't old Bernie Kerik make a lot of money with that taser stock?

SERWER: He was on the board of that, that is correct.

Let's talk about the markets very quickly. Yesterday, a down day and in fact, a down week for the markets, except for the S&P, up a little bit. Nasdaq, below 2,000. A couple points here, quickly. The Nasdaq is having a moment of silence in honor of the pope at 11:00. How can you have a moment of silence if you're an electronic exchange? I don't understand that. The NYSE is not having a moment of silence.

CAFFERTY: And they're not in electronics.

SERWER And they're not. They can and they're not. The others one, you get the picture.

CAFFERTY: I got it.

SERWER: And then finally, Chevron Texaco is buying Unocal.

CAFFERTY: That's a big deal.

SERWER: That is a big deal. $18 billion deal.

CAFFERTY: They've been trying to put that together a while.

SERWER: Exactly.

CAFFERTY: Thanks, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

CAFFERTY: Time for "The File." A couple of pope-related items. He was a man of peace, but Pope John Paul II also understood the importance of the military. He gave his blessing to President Reagan's plans to put nuclear-tipped minuteman missiles all across western Europe as a response to communist Russia's nuclear arsenal across the Soviet bloc.

Jim Nicholson, who served until recently as President Bush's ambassador to the Holy See, told Fox News Sunday yesterday, "President Reagan regularly sent military emissaries to show the pope satellite imagery of the Soviet missiles being spread across occupied Europe."

And I like this. Rock star Bono paid tribute to the pope on Sunday, saying, "He had mischief in his eyes, as well as godliness. If the Catholic Church is the glam rock of religion, this guy was the most vivid of performers, the best frontman the Catholic Church ever had." The pope met in 1999 with Bono and some other pop stars and workers and economists and they put together this idea that rich nations would write off third world debt. Bono said his Drop the Debt movement would never have been successful if it hadn't been for the Holy Father's involvement. The best frontman the Catholic Church ever had.

SERWER: He's got a way with words.

CAFFERTY: Yeah, doesn't he?

COSTELLO: Well, and a lot of people would agree with him, as well.

SERWER: Yes.

COSTELLO: Absolutely.

Our special live coverage from Rome continues in a moment. Religious leaders, diplomats and some journalists, including our own Bill Hemmer, paying their respects to Pope John Paul II. This is "AMERICAN MORNING," live from New York and from Rome.

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