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American Morning
Passing of Pope John Paul II; Preparation for Election of a New Pope
Aired April 04, 2005 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And we are learning new information this morning on this AMERICAN MORNING.
You see the cardinals meeting earlier today, deciding when the funeral mass will be held for the pope. We did learn this morning that the pope's funeral will be held in the morning on Friday, on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer in Rome.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everyone.
We're live in Rome, Italy again today.
It is day two of the mourning, the official mourning period for the Vatican after the pope has passed away. Pope John Paul II -- remembering his life again today.
2:00 in the afternoon local time here, 8:00 back in New York.
As our coverage continues, we continue to get a little more information about what will happen later today and again throughout the week. This is what we understand now.
With the cardinals, about 65 cardinals in their first meeting, taking place earlier today. They've decided that the funeral will take place on Friday, 10:00 a.m. local time here in Rome. That's 4:00 back on the East Coast of New York.
Also, we understand the pope will be buried in St. Peter's Basilica, which follows along the papal tradition that has been observed here for the past several hundred years. And the body will be on view later today, later today, at 5:00 local time, 11:00 back in New York, for the first initial lying in state, when the public can now come and view the body and pay their final respects to Pope John Paul II.
Interestingly enough, we expect here a massive rush of people into Rome, Italy over the next several days. City officials are bracing now for upwards of two million people to come here. If that's the case, these lines will be long and they will be somewhat eternal in the Eternal City.
So it's quite likely, as we move toward Friday, with the number of days extended now for the people to get a full opportunity to pay their final respects. St. Peters' will be open all but three hours a day, closing only in the middle of the night, from 2:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. local time here.
And my Rome bureau chief is Alessio Vinci, who's back with me here again.
One other bit of information we're finding out just a few moments ago is that there will be a public procession in St. Peter's Square in about three hours from now.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct.
I was talking to somebody in the office that is actually organizing all of this. And what they're telling us is that at 4:45 local time here, so 15 minutes before 5:00 p.m. local time, there will be a small procession. The body of the pope will be moved from the Clementine, the Sala Clementine, it will be moved through several rooms and structures inside the Vatican and then it will come out from the bronze door on the right hand side of St. Peter's Square, come out, will do a tour of the Square and then will enter the St. Peter's Basilica from the front door, where then he will be lying in state in the Sala Bologna inside of St. Peter's Basilica, where, at 5:00, we expect pilgrims finally, regular people, will be able to be in the -- pay their last respects.
HEMMER: There is an enormous amount of symbolism in that, is there not, Alessio, you know, with the pope coming through this procession in St. Peter's Square, where he has done and been for the past 26 years?
VINCI: You know, I would interpret this this way. I mean, I think that everybody who has a television set in the last few days has seen the pope laying down and seen dignitaries and members of the diplomatic corps and other people being able to pay their last respects to the pope. And then there's a feeling, perhaps, that now it is time for the regular people to be able to pay their last respects. And therefore, instead of just putting him directly into the basilica, they want to give people here in St. Peter's Square, able to give them, you know, perhaps, a last good-bye and perhaps, as you said earlier, I think the lines to be able to pay their last respects will be really eternal.
HEMMER: Yes, right now our viewers can see the viewing that continues. This is somewhat of a private viewing. You and I are two of the very lucky people who earlier today had an opportunity to view the body of Pope John Paul II.
I can tell you, based on the lines already for the private viewing, they are extensive. There were thousands and thousands of people waiting, somewhere upwards of about three hours, to get their opportunity.
VINCI: That is correct. I mean, most of them were obviously people either working at the Vatican, the diplomatic corps. I mean I've seen cardinals waiting in line. So, you know, everybody is waiting in line. I mean everybody has to wait and whatever. I had a feeling that for, you know, when we arrived in the Apostolic Palace, climbing up those two structures, reaching the Sala Clementine, you know, I was accompanied by a group of journalists, of course. But there were also some nuns around us. And they began praying. And then the entire area there, before we actually could enter the Sala Clementine, started praying. It was a very powerful moment.
And then once we entered that room, the Sala Clementine, a magnificent room, with frescoes, tapestries, really a beautiful place. This is where the pope used to meet foreign dignitaries. That is the place where the pope is now and that is the place where he will remain now for another two, two and a half hours for the so-called dignitaries to be able to see it.
I felt a really -- I felt a bit emotional in there, Bill.
I've seen even my colleagues who have covered the pope for many years crying, so -- and I'll tell you, the last time around I saw a journalist crying on a story was on 9/11.
HEMMER: Thanks, Alessio.
We'll talk again next hour here.
The pope's body is somewhat tilted. Part of that could be for the viewing purposes for so many coming by, part of it could be for the preservation of the body, as well -- Carol, there's a rosary in his hands and also there's a candle burning to his right and a giant crucifix off to his left.
It is very solemn. It is very serene and very respectful, too, for all the people who come by quietly, only pausing for no more than about a minute near the feet of Pope John Paul II.
That continues now and will for a couple more hours, and then we'll start to see the procession at about 5:00 local time, three hours from now -- Carol, back to you now in New York.
COSTELLO: Bill, I wanted to ask you about the memorials set up outside, because I understand people have put up memorials and flowers and candles. They put up signs on lampposts. Tell us about that.
HEMMER: You can see, Carol, in the cobblestone pavement of St. Peter's Square behind me, and, again, if you get past these buses and these trucks along this busy street, you can see the entrance to Vatican City. On that cobblestone pavement back there, Carol, there are -- sometimes you have these vigils that are set up in the evenings, normally. And they burn candles and they leave pictures of the pope. And it is very solemn, it is very quiet.
Interestingly enough, there was a mass there yesterday, Carol. About 50,000 people outdoors. And you could barely hear a whisper across the crowd, very respectful. And I think what Alessio points to, also, the people who, after they see his body, so many are in tears as they walk down the hall, these beautiful ornate halls painted so many centuries ago by people like Rafael, some of the greatest Renaissance artists of all time. And they leave with such a sense of sadness and also, I believe, a sense of appreciation for their ability to say good-bye one final time to Pope John Paul II, the opportunity they've been afforded here in Rome.
COSTELLO: All right, Bill, thanks.
We'll get back to you.
You know, the pope's funeral is not even being held, but we're looking forward to the next pope. A lot of people have been talking that already -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Carol.
Coming up in "The Cafferty File," Pope John Paul II is remembered as "the best front man the Catholic Church ever had." Wait until you hear who said that. "He was a man of peace, but nuclear missiles had their place." And the early betting line on who the next pope will be. The odds makers hard at work already.
COSTELLO: I know. I can't believe the odds makers would be involved in this, but they are. You're right.
CAFFERTY: They're involved in everything.
COSTELLO: Yes, you're right about that.
The grieving does go on today, though, in Pope John Paul's beloved Poland.
CNN's Chris Burns is live in Krakow, where the pope spent 40 years of his adult life -- Chris, how are they reacting there?
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, the country has come to a virtual standstill. And look at the newspapers here. This is one of the leading newspapers here in Poland: "Good-bye Father," it simply says. And most of the papers have been saying it to that degree. Really, they feel that this man is not just his -- their spiritual father, but also, of course, the political father of their modern country.
Over my shoulder is the archbishop's residence from which the pope used to live, the window from which he used to speak and sing to his people. Now, there's a black crucifix there and the people are just coming through, pouring through by the thousands to pay their last respects, to look up at that window and to leave flowers and candles.
And I'm standing in a sea of candles right now. And the flowers and candles are spilling over on the sidewalk into the street as those people walk by and leave and pay their respects.
Across the country, we've seen this. In Warsaw, we saw 100,000 people turn out yesterday for a mass. There's going to be another one today, where hundreds of thousands are also expected. Just outside of Krakow here is the Sanctuary for Divine Mercy, a place that honors St. Faustina, who the pope elevated to the sainthood. Some 200,000 people turned out there last night. Also, in his hometown of Wadowice there was another service this morning there. People, many of them baptized by the pope, who turned up there. And in the mountains, the Tartar Mountains, where the pope used to have his spiritual retreat, and people burned bonfires so, to tell him good-bye on his last visit in 2002.
One interesting comment coming from Wojciech Jaruzelski -- remember that general who brought about the martial law back in 1981 with a communist government, and he threw in jail Lech Walesa and other leaders of the Solidarity trade movement. He said just today that the pope was the greatest man of contemporary Polish and world history. Imagine that he, the pope, has really pulled together this country and unified it in feeling and in emotion today -- back to you.
COSTELLO: Oh, you know, that makes me wonder, Chris, if they ever talked, the pope and this general, I mean.
BURNS: Well, you know, the -- yes, well, they did. When they met back during the communist era, legend has it that Jaruzelski's knees were shaking, he respected him so much. So really -- and there are so many stories about how really the communist government had -- was down to its knees many times with the strikes that crippled them, that they had no other choice but to turn to the pope for leadership to prevent there from being a bloody counter-revolution, that this revolution was a velvet one is quite interesting.
One other thing I might add, if I may, is that there is this debate over whether the pope should be buried here. And the mayor of Krakow has called for the pope's heart to be buried here at Wawel Castle, where the kings of Poland are buried. And the -- there is a cardinal here who says well, that's pure fabrication. He tends to be slapping it down. But there are a lot of people here who are calling for at least a part of the pope to be buried.
Keep in mind that the composer, Frederick Chopin, his heart is buried here. His body is in Paris, but his heart is buried in Poland.
COSTELLO: Well, Chris, as far as we know, the pope will be buried, all of him will be buried in Italy.
Chris Burns live from Poland this morning.
There is other news this day.
Let's check on the other stories now with Kelly Wallace -- good morning.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again to you, Carol.
And good morning, everyone.
Here are some of those other stories now in the news. President Bush is welcoming new Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko to the White House. In a little over two hours, the two will meet for a working lunch at the White House. You'll recall they met once before, at a NATO summit in Brussels. Topping today's agenda, the spread of democracy in Eastern Europe and the Middle East and cooperation on weapons non-proliferation.
Sticking with President Bush, he is set to award the first Medal of Honor for service in Iraq to a fallen soldier. Sergeant First Class Paul Smith was killed exactly two years ago in a battle for control of Baghdad's airport. His children and widow will receive the award at the White House later today. It is only the third Medal of Honor given for actions since the Vietnam War.
It's being called the country's biggest terror drill. This morning, New Jersey and Connecticut taking part in a Congressionally mandated exercise known as Top Off. The drill tests response to a potential attack involving weapons of mass destruction. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff will oversee today's events.
And airline passengers apparently do have something to complain about. Take a listen. According to a new study, the quality of service shows a drop last year compared to 2003. That decline being blamed on higher traffic and fewer employees. Only four airlines, only four, showing improvement -- AirTran, Atlantic Southeast, JetBlue and United.
You hear lots of complaints, Carol. No one seems to be happy when they're flying anymore.
COSTELLO: No. And that's because there are fewer employees. You can't get any live person on the phone. You have to wait forever.
WALLACE: Delays.
COSTELLO: I know. Oh...
WALLACE: It's bad.
COSTELLO: And the prices are going up, too, on airline tickets.
Think, Kelly.
WALLACE: OK.
COSTELLO: Let's head back to Rome and check in with Bill.
HEMMER: Carol, thank you.
The first meeting of the cardinals has been completed. It lasted about two hours, earlier today. And after that, we've got a lot more details on what will happen later today and also the funeral that is now on the schedule for the end of this week, on Friday at 10:00 a.m. Rome time, on the sixth day of mourning, the mourning of the death and the life of Pope John Paul II.
Cardinal Roger Mahony is archbishop from Los Angeles.
He is also here in Rome.
He was at that meeting earlier today and we want to say welcome to you to our program here and welcome to Italy, as well.
What was the sense that you got among the cardinals today at that meeting about the enormous task you have going forward?
CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY, ARCHBISHOP, L.A. ARCHDIOCESE: Well, all the cardinals are committed now to these days of pray. This is a special time of mourning for the church and so our focus was on bringing the body of the Holy Father down today to St. Peters and then making arrangements for the spiritual care of the millions of people who will be coming day and night over the next days to see the Holy Father.
So, it's really almost as if we were pastors again, making spiritual arrangements for all of the people.
HEMMER: What was your sense, too, I guess on a personal level, when you had a chance to view the body of Pope John Paul II? What feelings came to your mind, what thoughts?
MAHONY: Well, when I saw him there, the bier was laying, actually, in the place where his chair used to be. And I, when I saw him, to see the serenity and the peacefulness on his face, with his eyes closed, was really good because we've had some very difficult images the last few weeks of him struggling so much for life.
But now there's a sense of peacefulness and serenity. And his eyes closed remind me of the many times I would see him around the world in prayer and taking the time to close his eyes, even at huge outdoor masses, and to be in prayer with his loving god. And now his eyes are closed forever and he's in prayer forever with that loving god.
HEMMER: One thing we continue to hear more of every day here in Rome is that this pope will not be remembered as Pope John Paul II, but rather as Pope John Paul The Great.
Are you in that school that believes that that's the way he'll be remembered? And, if so, what is the significance of that phrase, "The Great," at the end of his name?
MAHONY: Well, I think he definitely will be known as "The Great" because his papacy, it was just, it's almost incomprehensible the breadth and depth of his endeavor, both as John and Paul Johnson, the theologian, and Paul, the missionary traveler. Those two people really coalesced in this one man in an extraordinary fashion.
And so his warmth and his ability to connect with people, to communicate, yet to be very clear about the gospel of Jesus Christ. And his ability, also, to communicate with young people. Young people loved the Holy Father. And he was challenging to them. He joked with them, but he also called them to a deep life with Jesus Christ. HEMMER: One thing also, as we move away from remembering the man, let's talk about the church here for a moment. And I know in the past you have said that you would like to see the church change the way it's run.
I'm curious to get a better idea about what changes you believe should be implemented going forward and who is capable of making those changes that would satisfy someone like yourself?
MAHONY: Well, I think by change we all mean the continuing implementation of the Second Vatican Council. It's some 40 years ago when it closed. It takes almost 70 to 80 years for a Council to have its full impact. So the renewal of the church, the continuing renewal of the church, especially at the local parish level, was a great call of the Council. And I see our Holy Father was greatly committed to that. And so I see that continuing renewal as a major priority.
I know it is for many of us in the United States and other countries, as well.
Also, a great challenge are the emerging, young, dynamic charges in Africa, Asia, Latin America. So there's a lot of dynamism and strength in the church. And how to bring that all together and to have that go forward will be a great challenge for the next pope.
HEMMER: Cardinal, thanks.
Roger Mahony with me here in Rome, the Archbishop from Los Angeles.
We'll speak again as the week continues here.
Our program continues, as well, in a moment here, live in Rome right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: President Bush last met with Pope John Paul II nearly a year ago at the Vatican. His link to the pope for years was secretary of Veterans Affairs, Jim Nicholson.
Nicholson previously served as the U.S. ambassador to the Vatican.
And Secretary Nicholson is my guest now live from the White House.
Good morning.
SECRETARY JIM NICHOLSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO VATICAN, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: Good morning.
COSTELLO: You first met Pope John Paul two days after September 11.
What was that like? NICHOLSON: Well, it was pointed and sad. The pope then was still walking. He stood up, walked to the door to greet me and thrust his hand and said, "I'm so sorry for the American people." But he also said, "I've been thinking and praying about this and this was an attack, Ambassador Nicholson, not just on your country, but an attack on humanity." And he cupped his hands and then went on to say that humanity was going to have to take some steps to get these people to stop killing in the name of god.
And that led to a discussion about terrorism in general. And that led to the support of the pope and the Holy See of our efforts against international terrorists, including our efforts in Afghanistan. And that support has continued on today.
COSTELLO: Well, not so much for the war in Iraq. The pope came out and said he was actually against that.
Did you discuss that with him?
NICHOLSON: Well, the pope made that announcement at a speech that he gave to the diplomats one morning in January of '03. But the pope never said it would be immoral for us to go into Iraq and he never said it was. He said war is a defeat for humanity and war is not inevitable, and we agreed with that. And that's why the president made such an effort at the U.N. to get resolutions to get Saddam Hussein to cease and desist.
I worked that diplomatically. The pope sent a cardinal to Baghdad. Tariq Aziz came to Rome and we get -- tried very hard to get them to reveal what they had and so that we could avoid war, which is the -- the pope always wants to avoid war. He's a man of peace. But he's not a pacifist.
COSTELLO: No. But he absolutely was against this war in Iraq.
Was the president taken aback by the depth of feeling the pope had toward this war?
NICHOLSON: Well, the president has a great deal -- had a great deal of respect for the pope, so he took it very seriously. He also received a cardinal that the pope sent to Washington here and spent 45 minutes in the Oval Office discussing the war.
But it's also worth noting that doctrine of the church states that a decision about this will be made by the appropriate civilian official. And in our country, that's the president. And they also know that the president has taken an oath to defend the people of his country and our friends. And the doctrine of the church is based on several centuries worth of research that concludes there are evil forces in the world and that innocent people do need to be protected from them.
So that's why the pope never said it was immoral and, in fact, just a few months after we went into Iraq, the Chaldean Catholic patriarch came to Rome to see the pope and then asked to see me and came to my residence, where I received him, and he thrust his hand at me and said, "Thank you for coming to my country and freeing our people."
COSTELLO: A last thought from you, because you said good-bye to bishop pope. At your last meeting, when you said good-bye to Pope John Paul II, what was said?
NICHOLSON: Well, that was just a few weeks ago. And he invited my wife and me to his apartment as we were leaving Rome. And we had some personal words that I would like to, you know, keep personal. But he did, that morning, want to talk about President Bush, for whom he had -- he had great regard, by the way, because they had such shared values. And he wanted to also talk about America's power and what we plan to do with this power and this great base that we had here in this country.
And so I was able to talk to him about our number one priority with what we have in the United States, which is to enhance human dignity all over the world. It's stated right in our statement of foreign policy.
COSTELLO: Secretary Jim Nicholson joining us live from Washington this morning.
Thank you.
AMERICAN MORNING continues live from New York and from Rome.
We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: 8:26 Eastern time.
We've been talking a lot about Pope John Paul II and the direction of the Catholic Church. So time to check in with Jack and the Question of the Day, which relates to all of that.
CAFFERTY: Indeed, it does.
Thanks, Carol.
When it comes to the direction of the church after Pope John Paul II, Catholics seem to be a bit divided. This pope was a conservative leader. 59 percent of American Catholics think the next pope should take a similar approach. But according to a new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, a majority of these same Catholics want change in the church on the issues of allowing priests to marry, women priests, birth control, among others.
The question is this, in what direction should a new pope guide the Catholic Church?
D.W. in California writes: "He should guide the church in the direction of allowing priests to get married. This would encourage heterosexual young men to join the priesthood and would reduce much of the sexual predation which has been occurring." Mary in New York: "The next pope should continue to put emphasis on attracting the youth to the Catholic Church, for with them is our future."
Johnny in Mississippi: "Although I'm not optimistic the Catholic Church could revitalize itself with one grand stroke of inclusion, moving its stance against gay rights and women in the priesthood would serve to include possibly millions more in the church."
And Devon in Virginia writes: "If you asked Catholics who, in fact, attend mass and believe in all of the sacraments, then you would receive a far different response, which is a new pope would follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and does not compose them simply to meet the trends of the day."
COSTELLO: See, there's the rub, because many Catholics don't attend church. They go on Easter and Christmas and that's about it.
CAFFERTY: Well, are they -- I guess they call those cafeteria Catholics, right? They take what they want and leave the rest.
COSTELLO: Exactly.
CAFFERTY: So I'm not sure that that meets the strict definition of the word Catholic.
COSTELLO: I don't know. I don't know. But for many people it does, because, you know, everybody worships in different ways. Everybody...
CAFFERTY: Well, there's -- but...
COSTELLO: ... adheres to their faith in different ways.
CAFFERTY: But the doctrine of the church is very specific, you either adhere to it or you don't.
COSTELLO: Exactly.
CAFFERTY: And if you don't, then that makes you something besides what those who do are.
COSTELLO: So of your responses, how many say they want a change in the church?
CAFFERTY: I don't know.
COSTELLO: You didn't check?
CAFFERTY: No, I didn't count them.
COSTELLO: Oh, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Do you want me to go count them?
COSTELLO: Yes, could you do that, please? CAFFERTY: Sure. I'll be -- I'll get on that right away.
COSTELLO: I'd appreciate that.
Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, we'll take you back out to Rome, where Bill Hemmer is standing by live. The world paying tribute to Pope John Paul II this morning.
This is AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 4, 2005 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And we are learning new information this morning on this AMERICAN MORNING.
You see the cardinals meeting earlier today, deciding when the funeral mass will be held for the pope. We did learn this morning that the pope's funeral will be held in the morning on Friday, on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer in Rome.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everyone.
We're live in Rome, Italy again today.
It is day two of the mourning, the official mourning period for the Vatican after the pope has passed away. Pope John Paul II -- remembering his life again today.
2:00 in the afternoon local time here, 8:00 back in New York.
As our coverage continues, we continue to get a little more information about what will happen later today and again throughout the week. This is what we understand now.
With the cardinals, about 65 cardinals in their first meeting, taking place earlier today. They've decided that the funeral will take place on Friday, 10:00 a.m. local time here in Rome. That's 4:00 back on the East Coast of New York.
Also, we understand the pope will be buried in St. Peter's Basilica, which follows along the papal tradition that has been observed here for the past several hundred years. And the body will be on view later today, later today, at 5:00 local time, 11:00 back in New York, for the first initial lying in state, when the public can now come and view the body and pay their final respects to Pope John Paul II.
Interestingly enough, we expect here a massive rush of people into Rome, Italy over the next several days. City officials are bracing now for upwards of two million people to come here. If that's the case, these lines will be long and they will be somewhat eternal in the Eternal City.
So it's quite likely, as we move toward Friday, with the number of days extended now for the people to get a full opportunity to pay their final respects. St. Peters' will be open all but three hours a day, closing only in the middle of the night, from 2:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. local time here.
And my Rome bureau chief is Alessio Vinci, who's back with me here again.
One other bit of information we're finding out just a few moments ago is that there will be a public procession in St. Peter's Square in about three hours from now.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct.
I was talking to somebody in the office that is actually organizing all of this. And what they're telling us is that at 4:45 local time here, so 15 minutes before 5:00 p.m. local time, there will be a small procession. The body of the pope will be moved from the Clementine, the Sala Clementine, it will be moved through several rooms and structures inside the Vatican and then it will come out from the bronze door on the right hand side of St. Peter's Square, come out, will do a tour of the Square and then will enter the St. Peter's Basilica from the front door, where then he will be lying in state in the Sala Bologna inside of St. Peter's Basilica, where, at 5:00, we expect pilgrims finally, regular people, will be able to be in the -- pay their last respects.
HEMMER: There is an enormous amount of symbolism in that, is there not, Alessio, you know, with the pope coming through this procession in St. Peter's Square, where he has done and been for the past 26 years?
VINCI: You know, I would interpret this this way. I mean, I think that everybody who has a television set in the last few days has seen the pope laying down and seen dignitaries and members of the diplomatic corps and other people being able to pay their last respects to the pope. And then there's a feeling, perhaps, that now it is time for the regular people to be able to pay their last respects. And therefore, instead of just putting him directly into the basilica, they want to give people here in St. Peter's Square, able to give them, you know, perhaps, a last good-bye and perhaps, as you said earlier, I think the lines to be able to pay their last respects will be really eternal.
HEMMER: Yes, right now our viewers can see the viewing that continues. This is somewhat of a private viewing. You and I are two of the very lucky people who earlier today had an opportunity to view the body of Pope John Paul II.
I can tell you, based on the lines already for the private viewing, they are extensive. There were thousands and thousands of people waiting, somewhere upwards of about three hours, to get their opportunity.
VINCI: That is correct. I mean, most of them were obviously people either working at the Vatican, the diplomatic corps. I mean I've seen cardinals waiting in line. So, you know, everybody is waiting in line. I mean everybody has to wait and whatever. I had a feeling that for, you know, when we arrived in the Apostolic Palace, climbing up those two structures, reaching the Sala Clementine, you know, I was accompanied by a group of journalists, of course. But there were also some nuns around us. And they began praying. And then the entire area there, before we actually could enter the Sala Clementine, started praying. It was a very powerful moment.
And then once we entered that room, the Sala Clementine, a magnificent room, with frescoes, tapestries, really a beautiful place. This is where the pope used to meet foreign dignitaries. That is the place where the pope is now and that is the place where he will remain now for another two, two and a half hours for the so-called dignitaries to be able to see it.
I felt a really -- I felt a bit emotional in there, Bill.
I've seen even my colleagues who have covered the pope for many years crying, so -- and I'll tell you, the last time around I saw a journalist crying on a story was on 9/11.
HEMMER: Thanks, Alessio.
We'll talk again next hour here.
The pope's body is somewhat tilted. Part of that could be for the viewing purposes for so many coming by, part of it could be for the preservation of the body, as well -- Carol, there's a rosary in his hands and also there's a candle burning to his right and a giant crucifix off to his left.
It is very solemn. It is very serene and very respectful, too, for all the people who come by quietly, only pausing for no more than about a minute near the feet of Pope John Paul II.
That continues now and will for a couple more hours, and then we'll start to see the procession at about 5:00 local time, three hours from now -- Carol, back to you now in New York.
COSTELLO: Bill, I wanted to ask you about the memorials set up outside, because I understand people have put up memorials and flowers and candles. They put up signs on lampposts. Tell us about that.
HEMMER: You can see, Carol, in the cobblestone pavement of St. Peter's Square behind me, and, again, if you get past these buses and these trucks along this busy street, you can see the entrance to Vatican City. On that cobblestone pavement back there, Carol, there are -- sometimes you have these vigils that are set up in the evenings, normally. And they burn candles and they leave pictures of the pope. And it is very solemn, it is very quiet.
Interestingly enough, there was a mass there yesterday, Carol. About 50,000 people outdoors. And you could barely hear a whisper across the crowd, very respectful. And I think what Alessio points to, also, the people who, after they see his body, so many are in tears as they walk down the hall, these beautiful ornate halls painted so many centuries ago by people like Rafael, some of the greatest Renaissance artists of all time. And they leave with such a sense of sadness and also, I believe, a sense of appreciation for their ability to say good-bye one final time to Pope John Paul II, the opportunity they've been afforded here in Rome.
COSTELLO: All right, Bill, thanks.
We'll get back to you.
You know, the pope's funeral is not even being held, but we're looking forward to the next pope. A lot of people have been talking that already -- Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Carol.
Coming up in "The Cafferty File," Pope John Paul II is remembered as "the best front man the Catholic Church ever had." Wait until you hear who said that. "He was a man of peace, but nuclear missiles had their place." And the early betting line on who the next pope will be. The odds makers hard at work already.
COSTELLO: I know. I can't believe the odds makers would be involved in this, but they are. You're right.
CAFFERTY: They're involved in everything.
COSTELLO: Yes, you're right about that.
The grieving does go on today, though, in Pope John Paul's beloved Poland.
CNN's Chris Burns is live in Krakow, where the pope spent 40 years of his adult life -- Chris, how are they reacting there?
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, the country has come to a virtual standstill. And look at the newspapers here. This is one of the leading newspapers here in Poland: "Good-bye Father," it simply says. And most of the papers have been saying it to that degree. Really, they feel that this man is not just his -- their spiritual father, but also, of course, the political father of their modern country.
Over my shoulder is the archbishop's residence from which the pope used to live, the window from which he used to speak and sing to his people. Now, there's a black crucifix there and the people are just coming through, pouring through by the thousands to pay their last respects, to look up at that window and to leave flowers and candles.
And I'm standing in a sea of candles right now. And the flowers and candles are spilling over on the sidewalk into the street as those people walk by and leave and pay their respects.
Across the country, we've seen this. In Warsaw, we saw 100,000 people turn out yesterday for a mass. There's going to be another one today, where hundreds of thousands are also expected. Just outside of Krakow here is the Sanctuary for Divine Mercy, a place that honors St. Faustina, who the pope elevated to the sainthood. Some 200,000 people turned out there last night. Also, in his hometown of Wadowice there was another service this morning there. People, many of them baptized by the pope, who turned up there. And in the mountains, the Tartar Mountains, where the pope used to have his spiritual retreat, and people burned bonfires so, to tell him good-bye on his last visit in 2002.
One interesting comment coming from Wojciech Jaruzelski -- remember that general who brought about the martial law back in 1981 with a communist government, and he threw in jail Lech Walesa and other leaders of the Solidarity trade movement. He said just today that the pope was the greatest man of contemporary Polish and world history. Imagine that he, the pope, has really pulled together this country and unified it in feeling and in emotion today -- back to you.
COSTELLO: Oh, you know, that makes me wonder, Chris, if they ever talked, the pope and this general, I mean.
BURNS: Well, you know, the -- yes, well, they did. When they met back during the communist era, legend has it that Jaruzelski's knees were shaking, he respected him so much. So really -- and there are so many stories about how really the communist government had -- was down to its knees many times with the strikes that crippled them, that they had no other choice but to turn to the pope for leadership to prevent there from being a bloody counter-revolution, that this revolution was a velvet one is quite interesting.
One other thing I might add, if I may, is that there is this debate over whether the pope should be buried here. And the mayor of Krakow has called for the pope's heart to be buried here at Wawel Castle, where the kings of Poland are buried. And the -- there is a cardinal here who says well, that's pure fabrication. He tends to be slapping it down. But there are a lot of people here who are calling for at least a part of the pope to be buried.
Keep in mind that the composer, Frederick Chopin, his heart is buried here. His body is in Paris, but his heart is buried in Poland.
COSTELLO: Well, Chris, as far as we know, the pope will be buried, all of him will be buried in Italy.
Chris Burns live from Poland this morning.
There is other news this day.
Let's check on the other stories now with Kelly Wallace -- good morning.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again to you, Carol.
And good morning, everyone.
Here are some of those other stories now in the news. President Bush is welcoming new Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko to the White House. In a little over two hours, the two will meet for a working lunch at the White House. You'll recall they met once before, at a NATO summit in Brussels. Topping today's agenda, the spread of democracy in Eastern Europe and the Middle East and cooperation on weapons non-proliferation.
Sticking with President Bush, he is set to award the first Medal of Honor for service in Iraq to a fallen soldier. Sergeant First Class Paul Smith was killed exactly two years ago in a battle for control of Baghdad's airport. His children and widow will receive the award at the White House later today. It is only the third Medal of Honor given for actions since the Vietnam War.
It's being called the country's biggest terror drill. This morning, New Jersey and Connecticut taking part in a Congressionally mandated exercise known as Top Off. The drill tests response to a potential attack involving weapons of mass destruction. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff will oversee today's events.
And airline passengers apparently do have something to complain about. Take a listen. According to a new study, the quality of service shows a drop last year compared to 2003. That decline being blamed on higher traffic and fewer employees. Only four airlines, only four, showing improvement -- AirTran, Atlantic Southeast, JetBlue and United.
You hear lots of complaints, Carol. No one seems to be happy when they're flying anymore.
COSTELLO: No. And that's because there are fewer employees. You can't get any live person on the phone. You have to wait forever.
WALLACE: Delays.
COSTELLO: I know. Oh...
WALLACE: It's bad.
COSTELLO: And the prices are going up, too, on airline tickets.
Think, Kelly.
WALLACE: OK.
COSTELLO: Let's head back to Rome and check in with Bill.
HEMMER: Carol, thank you.
The first meeting of the cardinals has been completed. It lasted about two hours, earlier today. And after that, we've got a lot more details on what will happen later today and also the funeral that is now on the schedule for the end of this week, on Friday at 10:00 a.m. Rome time, on the sixth day of mourning, the mourning of the death and the life of Pope John Paul II.
Cardinal Roger Mahony is archbishop from Los Angeles.
He is also here in Rome.
He was at that meeting earlier today and we want to say welcome to you to our program here and welcome to Italy, as well.
What was the sense that you got among the cardinals today at that meeting about the enormous task you have going forward?
CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY, ARCHBISHOP, L.A. ARCHDIOCESE: Well, all the cardinals are committed now to these days of pray. This is a special time of mourning for the church and so our focus was on bringing the body of the Holy Father down today to St. Peters and then making arrangements for the spiritual care of the millions of people who will be coming day and night over the next days to see the Holy Father.
So, it's really almost as if we were pastors again, making spiritual arrangements for all of the people.
HEMMER: What was your sense, too, I guess on a personal level, when you had a chance to view the body of Pope John Paul II? What feelings came to your mind, what thoughts?
MAHONY: Well, when I saw him there, the bier was laying, actually, in the place where his chair used to be. And I, when I saw him, to see the serenity and the peacefulness on his face, with his eyes closed, was really good because we've had some very difficult images the last few weeks of him struggling so much for life.
But now there's a sense of peacefulness and serenity. And his eyes closed remind me of the many times I would see him around the world in prayer and taking the time to close his eyes, even at huge outdoor masses, and to be in prayer with his loving god. And now his eyes are closed forever and he's in prayer forever with that loving god.
HEMMER: One thing we continue to hear more of every day here in Rome is that this pope will not be remembered as Pope John Paul II, but rather as Pope John Paul The Great.
Are you in that school that believes that that's the way he'll be remembered? And, if so, what is the significance of that phrase, "The Great," at the end of his name?
MAHONY: Well, I think he definitely will be known as "The Great" because his papacy, it was just, it's almost incomprehensible the breadth and depth of his endeavor, both as John and Paul Johnson, the theologian, and Paul, the missionary traveler. Those two people really coalesced in this one man in an extraordinary fashion.
And so his warmth and his ability to connect with people, to communicate, yet to be very clear about the gospel of Jesus Christ. And his ability, also, to communicate with young people. Young people loved the Holy Father. And he was challenging to them. He joked with them, but he also called them to a deep life with Jesus Christ. HEMMER: One thing also, as we move away from remembering the man, let's talk about the church here for a moment. And I know in the past you have said that you would like to see the church change the way it's run.
I'm curious to get a better idea about what changes you believe should be implemented going forward and who is capable of making those changes that would satisfy someone like yourself?
MAHONY: Well, I think by change we all mean the continuing implementation of the Second Vatican Council. It's some 40 years ago when it closed. It takes almost 70 to 80 years for a Council to have its full impact. So the renewal of the church, the continuing renewal of the church, especially at the local parish level, was a great call of the Council. And I see our Holy Father was greatly committed to that. And so I see that continuing renewal as a major priority.
I know it is for many of us in the United States and other countries, as well.
Also, a great challenge are the emerging, young, dynamic charges in Africa, Asia, Latin America. So there's a lot of dynamism and strength in the church. And how to bring that all together and to have that go forward will be a great challenge for the next pope.
HEMMER: Cardinal, thanks.
Roger Mahony with me here in Rome, the Archbishop from Los Angeles.
We'll speak again as the week continues here.
Our program continues, as well, in a moment here, live in Rome right after this.
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COSTELLO: President Bush last met with Pope John Paul II nearly a year ago at the Vatican. His link to the pope for years was secretary of Veterans Affairs, Jim Nicholson.
Nicholson previously served as the U.S. ambassador to the Vatican.
And Secretary Nicholson is my guest now live from the White House.
Good morning.
SECRETARY JIM NICHOLSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO VATICAN, DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: Good morning.
COSTELLO: You first met Pope John Paul two days after September 11.
What was that like? NICHOLSON: Well, it was pointed and sad. The pope then was still walking. He stood up, walked to the door to greet me and thrust his hand and said, "I'm so sorry for the American people." But he also said, "I've been thinking and praying about this and this was an attack, Ambassador Nicholson, not just on your country, but an attack on humanity." And he cupped his hands and then went on to say that humanity was going to have to take some steps to get these people to stop killing in the name of god.
And that led to a discussion about terrorism in general. And that led to the support of the pope and the Holy See of our efforts against international terrorists, including our efforts in Afghanistan. And that support has continued on today.
COSTELLO: Well, not so much for the war in Iraq. The pope came out and said he was actually against that.
Did you discuss that with him?
NICHOLSON: Well, the pope made that announcement at a speech that he gave to the diplomats one morning in January of '03. But the pope never said it would be immoral for us to go into Iraq and he never said it was. He said war is a defeat for humanity and war is not inevitable, and we agreed with that. And that's why the president made such an effort at the U.N. to get resolutions to get Saddam Hussein to cease and desist.
I worked that diplomatically. The pope sent a cardinal to Baghdad. Tariq Aziz came to Rome and we get -- tried very hard to get them to reveal what they had and so that we could avoid war, which is the -- the pope always wants to avoid war. He's a man of peace. But he's not a pacifist.
COSTELLO: No. But he absolutely was against this war in Iraq.
Was the president taken aback by the depth of feeling the pope had toward this war?
NICHOLSON: Well, the president has a great deal -- had a great deal of respect for the pope, so he took it very seriously. He also received a cardinal that the pope sent to Washington here and spent 45 minutes in the Oval Office discussing the war.
But it's also worth noting that doctrine of the church states that a decision about this will be made by the appropriate civilian official. And in our country, that's the president. And they also know that the president has taken an oath to defend the people of his country and our friends. And the doctrine of the church is based on several centuries worth of research that concludes there are evil forces in the world and that innocent people do need to be protected from them.
So that's why the pope never said it was immoral and, in fact, just a few months after we went into Iraq, the Chaldean Catholic patriarch came to Rome to see the pope and then asked to see me and came to my residence, where I received him, and he thrust his hand at me and said, "Thank you for coming to my country and freeing our people."
COSTELLO: A last thought from you, because you said good-bye to bishop pope. At your last meeting, when you said good-bye to Pope John Paul II, what was said?
NICHOLSON: Well, that was just a few weeks ago. And he invited my wife and me to his apartment as we were leaving Rome. And we had some personal words that I would like to, you know, keep personal. But he did, that morning, want to talk about President Bush, for whom he had -- he had great regard, by the way, because they had such shared values. And he wanted to also talk about America's power and what we plan to do with this power and this great base that we had here in this country.
And so I was able to talk to him about our number one priority with what we have in the United States, which is to enhance human dignity all over the world. It's stated right in our statement of foreign policy.
COSTELLO: Secretary Jim Nicholson joining us live from Washington this morning.
Thank you.
AMERICAN MORNING continues live from New York and from Rome.
We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: 8:26 Eastern time.
We've been talking a lot about Pope John Paul II and the direction of the Catholic Church. So time to check in with Jack and the Question of the Day, which relates to all of that.
CAFFERTY: Indeed, it does.
Thanks, Carol.
When it comes to the direction of the church after Pope John Paul II, Catholics seem to be a bit divided. This pope was a conservative leader. 59 percent of American Catholics think the next pope should take a similar approach. But according to a new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, a majority of these same Catholics want change in the church on the issues of allowing priests to marry, women priests, birth control, among others.
The question is this, in what direction should a new pope guide the Catholic Church?
D.W. in California writes: "He should guide the church in the direction of allowing priests to get married. This would encourage heterosexual young men to join the priesthood and would reduce much of the sexual predation which has been occurring." Mary in New York: "The next pope should continue to put emphasis on attracting the youth to the Catholic Church, for with them is our future."
Johnny in Mississippi: "Although I'm not optimistic the Catholic Church could revitalize itself with one grand stroke of inclusion, moving its stance against gay rights and women in the priesthood would serve to include possibly millions more in the church."
And Devon in Virginia writes: "If you asked Catholics who, in fact, attend mass and believe in all of the sacraments, then you would receive a far different response, which is a new pope would follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and does not compose them simply to meet the trends of the day."
COSTELLO: See, there's the rub, because many Catholics don't attend church. They go on Easter and Christmas and that's about it.
CAFFERTY: Well, are they -- I guess they call those cafeteria Catholics, right? They take what they want and leave the rest.
COSTELLO: Exactly.
CAFFERTY: So I'm not sure that that meets the strict definition of the word Catholic.
COSTELLO: I don't know. I don't know. But for many people it does, because, you know, everybody worships in different ways. Everybody...
CAFFERTY: Well, there's -- but...
COSTELLO: ... adheres to their faith in different ways.
CAFFERTY: But the doctrine of the church is very specific, you either adhere to it or you don't.
COSTELLO: Exactly.
CAFFERTY: And if you don't, then that makes you something besides what those who do are.
COSTELLO: So of your responses, how many say they want a change in the church?
CAFFERTY: I don't know.
COSTELLO: You didn't check?
CAFFERTY: No, I didn't count them.
COSTELLO: Oh, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Do you want me to go count them?
COSTELLO: Yes, could you do that, please? CAFFERTY: Sure. I'll be -- I'll get on that right away.
COSTELLO: I'd appreciate that.
Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, we'll take you back out to Rome, where Bill Hemmer is standing by live. The world paying tribute to Pope John Paul II this morning.
This is AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
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