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American Morning
Dangerous Jersey Corridor; Defense Gets in Gear for Jackson Trial
Aired May 09, 2005 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. Welcome back.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Welcome back. It's half past the hour this morning.
Coming up, are authorities ignoring security at a chemical plant which is located right in the middle of one of America's most populated regions? This morning we talk to a "New York Times" reporter about his investigation and some of the shocking lapses that he discovered.
HEMMER: Also in a moment here, everyone talks about the high cost of healthcare. One state attorney general is actually doing something about it. He put a whole lot of pressure on his home state, the hospitals back there. We will tell you what state that is in a moment, also talk to him about his approach and how he may bring a lot of attention for some hospitals and states across the country. So we'll get to that.
O'BRIEN: Works out. Let's first, though, get the look at the headlines with Carol Costello. Good morning again.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.
"Now in the News," President Bush is heading for the former Soviet Republic of Georgia this hour. The trip comes on the heels of the president's meeting with the Russian leader Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Topping their agenda, recent concerns that Russia is moving away from democracy. But secretary of state Condoleezza Rice stressed the two leaders remained committed to working together in the future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: ... that this country can be a great democracy, that it needs to make further steps in order to do that. But President Putin and President Bush's relationship, in fact, enables them to talk about these issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Rice said the two leaders also discussed the need for a free press and civil society in Russia.
In Iraq, a massive effort to root out insurgents. A new offensive launched in Iraq's Anbar province, near the border with Syria. The U.S. military says at least 75 insurgents have been killed so far.
And word from the United Nations nuclear watchdog agency that North Korea could have as many as six nuclear weapons. The head of that agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, says the North Korean nuclear test would open a quote, "pandora's box." He's calling on the international community to pressure North Korea's leader into not going ahead with such a test.
And getting more bang for your buck at the pump. Gas prices fell another three big cents over the past two weeks. The average now just about $2.21 per gallon, according to the Lundberg Survey. The price drop is because a greater supply of crude oil is available and that downward trend, they say, is expected to continue. Just don't hold your breath.
And Britain's Prince Harry is leaving his cushy royal digs behind and starting his military career. The 20-year-old prince has begun training at the prestigious Sandhurst Military Academy. For the next few weeks, he'll be up at dawn and will not be allowed to leave the site, even on weekends. Some British odds makers are saying Prince Harry won't last the 44 weeks. But pretty good odds, three-to-one he won't the whole 44 weeks.
HEMMER: I'm not -- I think he finishes.
O'BRIEN: I agree. And I hope he does.
COSTELLO: They say he has a love of the military and this could straighten him out, et cetera, et cetera.
HEMMER: Let the hazing begin. Wow! See you, Carol.
COSTELLO: Sure.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Carol.
Well, there's been an explosion and fire at a chemical plant in Oregon this morning. The fire is still burning in North Portland. No injuries so far reported, but four people at the site had to be decontaminated. It brings us to our CNN security watch this morning. A dangerous corridor. Chemical plants, oil and gas pipelines, plus vulnerable ports and rail lines lies just across the Hudson River in New Jersey, and in the middle of millions of people.
David Kocieniewski wrote about it in today "New York Times." He's in Princeton, New Jersey, this morning. David, good morning. Thanks for talking with us.
DAVID KOCIENIESWKI, NYT TRENTON BUREAU CHIEF: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of exactly the strip that we're talking about and what's there and why it's so dangerous.
KOCIENIESWKI: It runs from the Newark Airport to Port Elizabeth in north Jersey. And I think the best way for people to think about it, in the beginning of "The Sopranos," Tony's driving through that part of the turnpike with all the industrial refineries and you see all the plants and the cranes in the background and that's the section we're talking about.
O'BRIEN: So when you decided to investigate the security there, how did you go about it?
KOCIENIESWKI: Well, it's kind of odd. There was a huge sea change in the way that people -- security officials here in New Jersey talk about it. If you think back to the months after September 11th -- which here in New Jersey, the month afterwards, we also had the anthrax attack -- there was this incredible violence where people all said -- didn't want to talk about the most mundane thing, said they didn't want to give the terrorists any advantages. In the past year or so, there's been this change where elected officials are talking about it because they said there's not enough being done.
Senator Corzine and the governor and the attorney general all talk about, you know, the need to do more. And, you know, they're having press conferences with about chemical security, talking about things that the poorest breakdown in security at the airports. And there's been so much talk about it, we decided to look into this area that the Chris Christie (ph), the U.S. attorney here, has talked about as the most dangerous two miles, and that other Coast Guard officials have called.
O'BRIEN: And you looked specifically into one chemical plant. When you went to that plant, how did you find it?
KOCIENIESWKI: You know, it was strange. This was not one of those attempts to do Gonzo journalism and climb over the fence. In fact, just the opposite. We were supposed to go do a ride-along with the local police to show what they do to keep this plant safe. And at the last minute, my photographer and I showed up and the police couldn't do it. They canceled out.
So we just decided to look around ourselves and we were kind of stunned that -- you drive right out there. There's trucks going by, we stopped our car. You know, you're walking around. We spent a lot of time there turning the car around and nothing. We kept waiting for people to come up and challenge us, stop us.
O'BRIEN: You got on the grounds of the plant. Did you get up close to any buildings? I mean, where exactly were you on the plant? I guess I'm asking, a location where really, if you were ready to do something sinister, you could have easily pulled it off?
KOCIENIESWKI: You were outside the gates and the tanks are all right there, and there's railroad cars -- railroad tanks and tractor trailers being filled up with chlorine gas and you know, you're right there. And my photographer actually went back another time and spent about 45 minutes going around, and again, there's no attempt to stop him. Security people say well there's cameras and we probably have you on video and such, and perhaps they do, but we went there unannounced, unplanned and the sad thing is that I think that people who are going to do more than take pictures can have the same kind of access. O'BRIEN: So then, is the at-issue essentially that it's money, that there's just not enough money for better fences or better security or more security guards to patrol the area all the time. Or is it bigger than that?
KOCIENIESWKI: I think with chemical plants, it's partly money, but partly it's politics. There has been three different efforts since 9/11 to have legislation in Congress that would give either the EPA or some other arm of federal government the ability to regulate and enforce security at chemical plants throughout the country. The industry lobby has beaten back some of those attempts. They say they're doing enough voluntarily and they put their own money in and are taking care of the problem.
And I think there also is in Washington some sense that the regulatory system -- there's already enough regulation that hold back business. So there's been a lot of fights about it. And just last month, there were hearings in Congress. And I think there's some momentum to do something, but what they're moving towards is probably going to be a watered-down version and will not include any mandatory -- will not include the kind of mandatory restrictions that might provide more dramatic increases in security.
O'BRIEN: Numbers-wise, how many -- in that two mile strip that you talked about, as you see on "The Sopranos," how many different chemical plants, how many different facilities that could be targets, are we talking about?
KOCIENIESWKI: You know, there are more than 100 different targets. You know, there are oil processing and storage areas, there are natural gas pipelines, commuter rail lines. And the ports are an area where there's concern about bringing in either a chemical or biological or nuclear device. The chemical plants, though, are far and away considered to be the biggest vulnerability.
Richard Falkenrath, who was the deputy Homeland Security adviser for the White House until recently -- he's now in the private sector and he, in my interview, he said, you know, that it jumps off the pang as the biggest vulnerability and the numbers of people -- his quote was, "The numbers of people involved are so large, the mind shuts down."
O'BRIEN: David Kocienieswki, the writer of "The New York Times." Thanks for talking with us about it. The article is in today's "New York Times." It is some scary stuff. Appreciate it.
KOCIENIESWKI: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Well, stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security -- Bill.
HEMMER: About 22 minutes now before the hour.
More witnesses expected today to say that nothing happened between them and Michael Jackson. All of this follows the pattern set last week as the defense began its case. Here's Rusty Dornin this morning in Santa Maria.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CROWD SCREAMING)
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After ten weeks and more than 80 witnesses, it was no blockbuster finish for the Michael Jackson prosecutors, say some legal analysts. But as the defense team launched its offense, it, too, came under fire.
First up were two young men, both boys during the early '90s, both originally from Australia. Both spent countless nights in Michael Jackson's bed. Both claimed absolutely nothing happened. Their mothers and sisters followed them as witnesses, also resolute in their convictions that nothing inappropriate happened with Michael Jackson at Neverland or anywhere else that would make them suspicious. Use of these defense witnesses could be a risky strategy, according to some legal analysts.
CRAIG SMITH, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It's a good example of the perils and pitfalls of calling people who ultimately want to say nothing happened. To get to the nothing happened, you have to go through, but I let my son -- or I stayed and slept with Michael Jackson in his bed. That is simply going to give the jurors a lot of pause.
DORNIN: When relatives claimed nothing happened between the boys and Michael Jackson, prosecutors repeatedly asked them, how could they know if it was behind Jackson's closed bedroom doors?
JIM MORET, LEGAL ANALYST: It seems incredible to think that the defense is the one putting on this evidence that you would suspect the prosecution would want to have come in. Because it seems, on its face, to help the prosecution.
DORNIN: The defense did say at least 21 celebrities could be called to the stand, including actor Macaulay Culkin, who spent time as a youngster at the Neverland Ranch and has previously said nothing happened.
Up next, four former and current Neverland employees are expected to testify. Sources also tell CNN that the defense Friday raised an issue regarding one of the jurors. The judge has not yet commented on that concern.
Rusty Dornin, CNN, Santa Maria, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: And another reported defense strategy, it's believed that his lawyers, Michael Jackson's lawyers, will try to portray Jackson as a guy who prosecutors are out to get, and who accusers just want his money. That case continues out in California.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Well, a carmaker tells its workers show some loyalty or start walking. Andy's explaining in "Minding Your Business" ahead.
Also, one state finding a way to cut hospital costs in half for the uninsured. A look at the plan, and also the pressure that made it happen. That's after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: In our "House Call" segment this morning, helping the uninsured pay for the rising cost of healthcare. There's a state, Minnesota in fact, where some hospitals are slashing their prices by more than 50 percent for those without insurance, this after some pressure by the state attorney general Mike Hatch.
Mike Hatch is my guest, now, live in Minneapolis.
Sir, welcome, and good morning to you.
MIKE HATCH, MINN. ATTY. GENERAL: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: What did you tell these hospitals?
HATCH: Well, insurers, HMOs, Medicare, Medicaid all pay at one level, pretty much within a certain range, and yet the uninsured walk in the door, they have no ability to negotiate, and they're getting hit with bills that are two, three, sometimes seven, eight times higher than the rest of the market.
HEMMER: But I would imagine these hospitals would say, hey, go away, this is our business. What did they say to you?
HATCH: Well, that's a form of consumer fraud. If you or I walk into a gas pump and they jack up the rates 10 bucks because we didn't negotiate beforehand, I think everybody would pretty much understands that's a form of consumer fraud, and I think what's going on with the uninsured in this country is the same thing. But the chargemaster list, the list price, is not something that anybody else pays. Most people going into a hospital have insurance coverage. They have a discounted level. All people walking in ought to be able to get rates roughly the same.
HEMMER: So give me a comparison, if you were to take hospital care or perhaps a drug or something that the uninsured would get now as opposed to before. What kind of savings are they looking at?
HATCH: Well, the discounts range. I mean, many of the services today are what are called case rate. You walk in for a dislocated, for a knee replacement or a maternity care, you're going to have a set rate no matter how many days you are in the hospital for a certain procedure. The -- and in those cases, you're going see discounts, oh, jeez, a third, a fourth, fifth of what the chargemaster list is.
HEMMER: You're saying these hospitals were price gouging, right?
HATCH: Well, I think, you know, it didn't start off that way. The chargemaster lists were more reflective of what the rates were, perhaps in the '70s and '80s, but with managed care and a lot of the negotiation that's gone on over the years, the rates have gone down because of that negotiation, and what you've been -- what we have left is this list price, which is artificial.
This goes on throughout the country. And I want to compliment the Minnesota hospitals for stepping up to the plate, sitting down and trying to address this issue so we can get on and see what we can do.
HEMMER: A couple of specific questions here for you. How many hospitals have you affected so far in your state?
HATCH: I believe it's about 18 hospitals have signed this packet.
HEMMER: Eighteen so far. More to come?
HATCH: And there will be more to come this week. We expect that -- well, 50 percent of the hospital beds in Minnesota are affected today, and we expect to get probably 25 to 30 percent more.
HEMMER: So if this is such an issue in your state of Minnesota, how much of this is an issue across the country?
HATCH: It's an issue throughout the country. Congress has had hearings and the House Ways and Means Committee, the Senate Finance Committee, looking at 501-C3s, nonprofits and what he they charge. But I think it's something throughout the country, whether it be a for-profit or nonprofit institution, they ought to be looking at these type of charges.
HEMMER: It is an interesting story. Yes, thanks for bringing it to our attention. Mike Hatch, he's the attorney general up there in Minnesota.
Thanks, and good luck to you, and come on back when there's more news, all right?
HATCH: OK, thank you.
HEMMER: Nice to see you. Sure -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, "CNN LIVE TODAY" is coming up next. Let's get right to Daryn Kagan.
Good morning to you. What are you working on this morning, Daryn?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Boy, we have a lot to talk about, Soledad, including a police chase in Southern California that ends in a shootout in a residential neighborhood. We will get the story behind the investigation.
"Newsweek" names the 100 best public high schools. We'll find out who they are pointing the spotlight on.
And coming up on hurricane season? Who's prepared? Not nearly enough people. A lot of lists out there, including, Soledad, quick quiz for you, what do you think is the No. 1 structural element, like the part of your house, that's most likely to come apart during a hurricane?
O'BRIEN: Your roof.
KAGAN; Good guess, but wrong. It's the garage door. Ninety-six percent of the people asked did not know that.
O'BRIEN: Really? Huh, so I'm in good company, is what you're saying?
KAGAN: Yes, and all the more reason to stay tuned, 10:00 a.m. Eastern.
O'BRIEN: Excellent. Daryn, thanks. See you a little bit later.
Still to come this morning, one carmaker tells workers to put on their walking shoes if they don't drive the company's product. "Minding Your Business" is up next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Guess who's saying this: drive a Chrysler or walk to work. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business" this morning. Good morning.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Good morning, Soledad.
Let's check in on the markets, first of all. Stocks trading down a little bit this morning on an early check. Down five on the Dow. You can see here, Duke and Synergy, the two power companies merging. Also talk of a merger between ETrade and Ameritrade. Ameritrade based in Omaha, Nebraska.
Yes. Now let's move over to Indiana. The Daimler Chrysler transmission plant in Kokomo, Indiana. New parking regulations taking effect today. Basically, if you don't drive a Chrysler, you have to park in a satellite lot and hoof it a couple hundred miles -- hundred miles? Hundred yards across. That would be really bad. Here's a picture of the lot, you can see here from "The Kokomo Tribune," good folks let us run it.
You can see, they're 80 percent of the spots in the close lot are for Chryslers. In you park your non-Chrysler vehicle in this lot, they're going to tow you to Indianapolis, 50 miles to the South, for $200. And you know, a lot of the workers saying yes, right on. People who have Chryslers, obviously. Some people who don't drive Chryslers saying, you know, it's unfair. One was guy was saying I've got two Chryslers, my third is a Pontiac, which is a G.M., because I couldn't find a Chrysler in the right price-range. I'm going to get penalized for that. Back and forth, and probably someone will end up suing the place.
O'BRIEN: I was going to say, I wonder if this is legal.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: This is something that's no doubt designed to boost morale among employees.
SERWER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: You'd think they'd make them cheap enough for the employees that anybody could buy a Chrysler.
CAFFERTY: What if you wanted to park a Mercedes?
SERWER: You could.
CAFFERTY: Daimler Chrysler owns them, too, right?
SERWER: Yes. Right.
HEMMER: How much to tow a Mercedes down there in Indianapolis, then?
CAFFERTY: What's that?
HEMMER: Double that price to get that thing out of there.
SERWER: Yes.
HEMMER: Thank you, Andy. "Question of the Day," we're going back to school with Jack. Love this stuff.
CAFFERTY: Indiana University did this study and once the -- the question is this: should high school students be made to work harder? The average, 55 percent of the high school students in this study averaged three hours a week of homework. And that's all. So we want to know if that's enough. Most of you don't think it is.
Lawrence writes from Michigan: "As a teacher, I found whenever someone says schools are in a terrible shape, they add another nail in the coffin. If you want high school students to work harder, maybe parents should start valuing hard work instead of always standing up for their lazy kids."
David in Ames, Iowa: "Yes, after seeing how hard other countries push their students. We need to impress on these young minds that unless they work hard, they will not be able to keep up the global workforce."
And then we got this from Tim, who's a high school senior: "Jack, I work very hard in school. I don't need no more homework. My friends and me are very busy trading songs on our i-Pods. Class work would cut down on our trading time. I will work hard in college, where I plan on becoming a doctor." Good luck to you, Tim, I hope I'm never sick in your neighborhood.
HEMMER: We heard a lot from high school students, though, didn't you?
CAFFERTY: All right. This last's one a bit of a...
HEMMER: I would say. Listen, Daryn's going to have this new list next hour, in fact. "Newsweek" magazine's got a whole new list out, the 100 best high schools in the entire country. We'll get to that next hour.
Tomorrow here on AMERICAN MORNING, the host of "Jeopardy," Alex Trebek, is here. That game show is helping CNN celebrate 25 years on the air. Alex tells us what's in store, for $500 that is. That's tomorrow at 7:00 a.m.
Back in a moment here, a final word.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Hey, we got to run, huh? Boy, we're a whole minute early. Is that right? No, say it ain't so!
CAFFERTY: Well, what a waste of time.
COSTELLO: Keep going!
HEMMER: We owe Daryn time anyway, don't we? See you tomorrow. Here's Daryn Kagan. How you doing, Daryn?
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 9, 2005 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. Welcome back.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Welcome back. It's half past the hour this morning.
Coming up, are authorities ignoring security at a chemical plant which is located right in the middle of one of America's most populated regions? This morning we talk to a "New York Times" reporter about his investigation and some of the shocking lapses that he discovered.
HEMMER: Also in a moment here, everyone talks about the high cost of healthcare. One state attorney general is actually doing something about it. He put a whole lot of pressure on his home state, the hospitals back there. We will tell you what state that is in a moment, also talk to him about his approach and how he may bring a lot of attention for some hospitals and states across the country. So we'll get to that.
O'BRIEN: Works out. Let's first, though, get the look at the headlines with Carol Costello. Good morning again.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.
"Now in the News," President Bush is heading for the former Soviet Republic of Georgia this hour. The trip comes on the heels of the president's meeting with the Russian leader Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Topping their agenda, recent concerns that Russia is moving away from democracy. But secretary of state Condoleezza Rice stressed the two leaders remained committed to working together in the future.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: ... that this country can be a great democracy, that it needs to make further steps in order to do that. But President Putin and President Bush's relationship, in fact, enables them to talk about these issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Rice said the two leaders also discussed the need for a free press and civil society in Russia.
In Iraq, a massive effort to root out insurgents. A new offensive launched in Iraq's Anbar province, near the border with Syria. The U.S. military says at least 75 insurgents have been killed so far.
And word from the United Nations nuclear watchdog agency that North Korea could have as many as six nuclear weapons. The head of that agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, says the North Korean nuclear test would open a quote, "pandora's box." He's calling on the international community to pressure North Korea's leader into not going ahead with such a test.
And getting more bang for your buck at the pump. Gas prices fell another three big cents over the past two weeks. The average now just about $2.21 per gallon, according to the Lundberg Survey. The price drop is because a greater supply of crude oil is available and that downward trend, they say, is expected to continue. Just don't hold your breath.
And Britain's Prince Harry is leaving his cushy royal digs behind and starting his military career. The 20-year-old prince has begun training at the prestigious Sandhurst Military Academy. For the next few weeks, he'll be up at dawn and will not be allowed to leave the site, even on weekends. Some British odds makers are saying Prince Harry won't last the 44 weeks. But pretty good odds, three-to-one he won't the whole 44 weeks.
HEMMER: I'm not -- I think he finishes.
O'BRIEN: I agree. And I hope he does.
COSTELLO: They say he has a love of the military and this could straighten him out, et cetera, et cetera.
HEMMER: Let the hazing begin. Wow! See you, Carol.
COSTELLO: Sure.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Carol.
Well, there's been an explosion and fire at a chemical plant in Oregon this morning. The fire is still burning in North Portland. No injuries so far reported, but four people at the site had to be decontaminated. It brings us to our CNN security watch this morning. A dangerous corridor. Chemical plants, oil and gas pipelines, plus vulnerable ports and rail lines lies just across the Hudson River in New Jersey, and in the middle of millions of people.
David Kocieniewski wrote about it in today "New York Times." He's in Princeton, New Jersey, this morning. David, good morning. Thanks for talking with us.
DAVID KOCIENIESWKI, NYT TRENTON BUREAU CHIEF: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Give me a sense of exactly the strip that we're talking about and what's there and why it's so dangerous.
KOCIENIESWKI: It runs from the Newark Airport to Port Elizabeth in north Jersey. And I think the best way for people to think about it, in the beginning of "The Sopranos," Tony's driving through that part of the turnpike with all the industrial refineries and you see all the plants and the cranes in the background and that's the section we're talking about.
O'BRIEN: So when you decided to investigate the security there, how did you go about it?
KOCIENIESWKI: Well, it's kind of odd. There was a huge sea change in the way that people -- security officials here in New Jersey talk about it. If you think back to the months after September 11th -- which here in New Jersey, the month afterwards, we also had the anthrax attack -- there was this incredible violence where people all said -- didn't want to talk about the most mundane thing, said they didn't want to give the terrorists any advantages. In the past year or so, there's been this change where elected officials are talking about it because they said there's not enough being done.
Senator Corzine and the governor and the attorney general all talk about, you know, the need to do more. And, you know, they're having press conferences with about chemical security, talking about things that the poorest breakdown in security at the airports. And there's been so much talk about it, we decided to look into this area that the Chris Christie (ph), the U.S. attorney here, has talked about as the most dangerous two miles, and that other Coast Guard officials have called.
O'BRIEN: And you looked specifically into one chemical plant. When you went to that plant, how did you find it?
KOCIENIESWKI: You know, it was strange. This was not one of those attempts to do Gonzo journalism and climb over the fence. In fact, just the opposite. We were supposed to go do a ride-along with the local police to show what they do to keep this plant safe. And at the last minute, my photographer and I showed up and the police couldn't do it. They canceled out.
So we just decided to look around ourselves and we were kind of stunned that -- you drive right out there. There's trucks going by, we stopped our car. You know, you're walking around. We spent a lot of time there turning the car around and nothing. We kept waiting for people to come up and challenge us, stop us.
O'BRIEN: You got on the grounds of the plant. Did you get up close to any buildings? I mean, where exactly were you on the plant? I guess I'm asking, a location where really, if you were ready to do something sinister, you could have easily pulled it off?
KOCIENIESWKI: You were outside the gates and the tanks are all right there, and there's railroad cars -- railroad tanks and tractor trailers being filled up with chlorine gas and you know, you're right there. And my photographer actually went back another time and spent about 45 minutes going around, and again, there's no attempt to stop him. Security people say well there's cameras and we probably have you on video and such, and perhaps they do, but we went there unannounced, unplanned and the sad thing is that I think that people who are going to do more than take pictures can have the same kind of access. O'BRIEN: So then, is the at-issue essentially that it's money, that there's just not enough money for better fences or better security or more security guards to patrol the area all the time. Or is it bigger than that?
KOCIENIESWKI: I think with chemical plants, it's partly money, but partly it's politics. There has been three different efforts since 9/11 to have legislation in Congress that would give either the EPA or some other arm of federal government the ability to regulate and enforce security at chemical plants throughout the country. The industry lobby has beaten back some of those attempts. They say they're doing enough voluntarily and they put their own money in and are taking care of the problem.
And I think there also is in Washington some sense that the regulatory system -- there's already enough regulation that hold back business. So there's been a lot of fights about it. And just last month, there were hearings in Congress. And I think there's some momentum to do something, but what they're moving towards is probably going to be a watered-down version and will not include any mandatory -- will not include the kind of mandatory restrictions that might provide more dramatic increases in security.
O'BRIEN: Numbers-wise, how many -- in that two mile strip that you talked about, as you see on "The Sopranos," how many different chemical plants, how many different facilities that could be targets, are we talking about?
KOCIENIESWKI: You know, there are more than 100 different targets. You know, there are oil processing and storage areas, there are natural gas pipelines, commuter rail lines. And the ports are an area where there's concern about bringing in either a chemical or biological or nuclear device. The chemical plants, though, are far and away considered to be the biggest vulnerability.
Richard Falkenrath, who was the deputy Homeland Security adviser for the White House until recently -- he's now in the private sector and he, in my interview, he said, you know, that it jumps off the pang as the biggest vulnerability and the numbers of people -- his quote was, "The numbers of people involved are so large, the mind shuts down."
O'BRIEN: David Kocienieswki, the writer of "The New York Times." Thanks for talking with us about it. The article is in today's "New York Times." It is some scary stuff. Appreciate it.
KOCIENIESWKI: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Well, stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security -- Bill.
HEMMER: About 22 minutes now before the hour.
More witnesses expected today to say that nothing happened between them and Michael Jackson. All of this follows the pattern set last week as the defense began its case. Here's Rusty Dornin this morning in Santa Maria.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CROWD SCREAMING)
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After ten weeks and more than 80 witnesses, it was no blockbuster finish for the Michael Jackson prosecutors, say some legal analysts. But as the defense team launched its offense, it, too, came under fire.
First up were two young men, both boys during the early '90s, both originally from Australia. Both spent countless nights in Michael Jackson's bed. Both claimed absolutely nothing happened. Their mothers and sisters followed them as witnesses, also resolute in their convictions that nothing inappropriate happened with Michael Jackson at Neverland or anywhere else that would make them suspicious. Use of these defense witnesses could be a risky strategy, according to some legal analysts.
CRAIG SMITH, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It's a good example of the perils and pitfalls of calling people who ultimately want to say nothing happened. To get to the nothing happened, you have to go through, but I let my son -- or I stayed and slept with Michael Jackson in his bed. That is simply going to give the jurors a lot of pause.
DORNIN: When relatives claimed nothing happened between the boys and Michael Jackson, prosecutors repeatedly asked them, how could they know if it was behind Jackson's closed bedroom doors?
JIM MORET, LEGAL ANALYST: It seems incredible to think that the defense is the one putting on this evidence that you would suspect the prosecution would want to have come in. Because it seems, on its face, to help the prosecution.
DORNIN: The defense did say at least 21 celebrities could be called to the stand, including actor Macaulay Culkin, who spent time as a youngster at the Neverland Ranch and has previously said nothing happened.
Up next, four former and current Neverland employees are expected to testify. Sources also tell CNN that the defense Friday raised an issue regarding one of the jurors. The judge has not yet commented on that concern.
Rusty Dornin, CNN, Santa Maria, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: And another reported defense strategy, it's believed that his lawyers, Michael Jackson's lawyers, will try to portray Jackson as a guy who prosecutors are out to get, and who accusers just want his money. That case continues out in California.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Well, a carmaker tells its workers show some loyalty or start walking. Andy's explaining in "Minding Your Business" ahead.
Also, one state finding a way to cut hospital costs in half for the uninsured. A look at the plan, and also the pressure that made it happen. That's after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: In our "House Call" segment this morning, helping the uninsured pay for the rising cost of healthcare. There's a state, Minnesota in fact, where some hospitals are slashing their prices by more than 50 percent for those without insurance, this after some pressure by the state attorney general Mike Hatch.
Mike Hatch is my guest, now, live in Minneapolis.
Sir, welcome, and good morning to you.
MIKE HATCH, MINN. ATTY. GENERAL: Good morning, Bill.
HEMMER: What did you tell these hospitals?
HATCH: Well, insurers, HMOs, Medicare, Medicaid all pay at one level, pretty much within a certain range, and yet the uninsured walk in the door, they have no ability to negotiate, and they're getting hit with bills that are two, three, sometimes seven, eight times higher than the rest of the market.
HEMMER: But I would imagine these hospitals would say, hey, go away, this is our business. What did they say to you?
HATCH: Well, that's a form of consumer fraud. If you or I walk into a gas pump and they jack up the rates 10 bucks because we didn't negotiate beforehand, I think everybody would pretty much understands that's a form of consumer fraud, and I think what's going on with the uninsured in this country is the same thing. But the chargemaster list, the list price, is not something that anybody else pays. Most people going into a hospital have insurance coverage. They have a discounted level. All people walking in ought to be able to get rates roughly the same.
HEMMER: So give me a comparison, if you were to take hospital care or perhaps a drug or something that the uninsured would get now as opposed to before. What kind of savings are they looking at?
HATCH: Well, the discounts range. I mean, many of the services today are what are called case rate. You walk in for a dislocated, for a knee replacement or a maternity care, you're going to have a set rate no matter how many days you are in the hospital for a certain procedure. The -- and in those cases, you're going see discounts, oh, jeez, a third, a fourth, fifth of what the chargemaster list is.
HEMMER: You're saying these hospitals were price gouging, right?
HATCH: Well, I think, you know, it didn't start off that way. The chargemaster lists were more reflective of what the rates were, perhaps in the '70s and '80s, but with managed care and a lot of the negotiation that's gone on over the years, the rates have gone down because of that negotiation, and what you've been -- what we have left is this list price, which is artificial.
This goes on throughout the country. And I want to compliment the Minnesota hospitals for stepping up to the plate, sitting down and trying to address this issue so we can get on and see what we can do.
HEMMER: A couple of specific questions here for you. How many hospitals have you affected so far in your state?
HATCH: I believe it's about 18 hospitals have signed this packet.
HEMMER: Eighteen so far. More to come?
HATCH: And there will be more to come this week. We expect that -- well, 50 percent of the hospital beds in Minnesota are affected today, and we expect to get probably 25 to 30 percent more.
HEMMER: So if this is such an issue in your state of Minnesota, how much of this is an issue across the country?
HATCH: It's an issue throughout the country. Congress has had hearings and the House Ways and Means Committee, the Senate Finance Committee, looking at 501-C3s, nonprofits and what he they charge. But I think it's something throughout the country, whether it be a for-profit or nonprofit institution, they ought to be looking at these type of charges.
HEMMER: It is an interesting story. Yes, thanks for bringing it to our attention. Mike Hatch, he's the attorney general up there in Minnesota.
Thanks, and good luck to you, and come on back when there's more news, all right?
HATCH: OK, thank you.
HEMMER: Nice to see you. Sure -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, "CNN LIVE TODAY" is coming up next. Let's get right to Daryn Kagan.
Good morning to you. What are you working on this morning, Daryn?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Boy, we have a lot to talk about, Soledad, including a police chase in Southern California that ends in a shootout in a residential neighborhood. We will get the story behind the investigation.
"Newsweek" names the 100 best public high schools. We'll find out who they are pointing the spotlight on.
And coming up on hurricane season? Who's prepared? Not nearly enough people. A lot of lists out there, including, Soledad, quick quiz for you, what do you think is the No. 1 structural element, like the part of your house, that's most likely to come apart during a hurricane?
O'BRIEN: Your roof.
KAGAN; Good guess, but wrong. It's the garage door. Ninety-six percent of the people asked did not know that.
O'BRIEN: Really? Huh, so I'm in good company, is what you're saying?
KAGAN: Yes, and all the more reason to stay tuned, 10:00 a.m. Eastern.
O'BRIEN: Excellent. Daryn, thanks. See you a little bit later.
Still to come this morning, one carmaker tells workers to put on their walking shoes if they don't drive the company's product. "Minding Your Business" is up next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Guess who's saying this: drive a Chrysler or walk to work. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business" this morning. Good morning.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Good morning, Soledad.
Let's check in on the markets, first of all. Stocks trading down a little bit this morning on an early check. Down five on the Dow. You can see here, Duke and Synergy, the two power companies merging. Also talk of a merger between ETrade and Ameritrade. Ameritrade based in Omaha, Nebraska.
Yes. Now let's move over to Indiana. The Daimler Chrysler transmission plant in Kokomo, Indiana. New parking regulations taking effect today. Basically, if you don't drive a Chrysler, you have to park in a satellite lot and hoof it a couple hundred miles -- hundred miles? Hundred yards across. That would be really bad. Here's a picture of the lot, you can see here from "The Kokomo Tribune," good folks let us run it.
You can see, they're 80 percent of the spots in the close lot are for Chryslers. In you park your non-Chrysler vehicle in this lot, they're going to tow you to Indianapolis, 50 miles to the South, for $200. And you know, a lot of the workers saying yes, right on. People who have Chryslers, obviously. Some people who don't drive Chryslers saying, you know, it's unfair. One was guy was saying I've got two Chryslers, my third is a Pontiac, which is a G.M., because I couldn't find a Chrysler in the right price-range. I'm going to get penalized for that. Back and forth, and probably someone will end up suing the place.
O'BRIEN: I was going to say, I wonder if this is legal.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: This is something that's no doubt designed to boost morale among employees.
SERWER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: You'd think they'd make them cheap enough for the employees that anybody could buy a Chrysler.
CAFFERTY: What if you wanted to park a Mercedes?
SERWER: You could.
CAFFERTY: Daimler Chrysler owns them, too, right?
SERWER: Yes. Right.
HEMMER: How much to tow a Mercedes down there in Indianapolis, then?
CAFFERTY: What's that?
HEMMER: Double that price to get that thing out of there.
SERWER: Yes.
HEMMER: Thank you, Andy. "Question of the Day," we're going back to school with Jack. Love this stuff.
CAFFERTY: Indiana University did this study and once the -- the question is this: should high school students be made to work harder? The average, 55 percent of the high school students in this study averaged three hours a week of homework. And that's all. So we want to know if that's enough. Most of you don't think it is.
Lawrence writes from Michigan: "As a teacher, I found whenever someone says schools are in a terrible shape, they add another nail in the coffin. If you want high school students to work harder, maybe parents should start valuing hard work instead of always standing up for their lazy kids."
David in Ames, Iowa: "Yes, after seeing how hard other countries push their students. We need to impress on these young minds that unless they work hard, they will not be able to keep up the global workforce."
And then we got this from Tim, who's a high school senior: "Jack, I work very hard in school. I don't need no more homework. My friends and me are very busy trading songs on our i-Pods. Class work would cut down on our trading time. I will work hard in college, where I plan on becoming a doctor." Good luck to you, Tim, I hope I'm never sick in your neighborhood.
HEMMER: We heard a lot from high school students, though, didn't you?
CAFFERTY: All right. This last's one a bit of a...
HEMMER: I would say. Listen, Daryn's going to have this new list next hour, in fact. "Newsweek" magazine's got a whole new list out, the 100 best high schools in the entire country. We'll get to that next hour.
Tomorrow here on AMERICAN MORNING, the host of "Jeopardy," Alex Trebek, is here. That game show is helping CNN celebrate 25 years on the air. Alex tells us what's in store, for $500 that is. That's tomorrow at 7:00 a.m.
Back in a moment here, a final word.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Hey, we got to run, huh? Boy, we're a whole minute early. Is that right? No, say it ain't so!
CAFFERTY: Well, what a waste of time.
COSTELLO: Keep going!
HEMMER: We owe Daryn time anyway, don't we? See you tomorrow. Here's Daryn Kagan. How you doing, Daryn?
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