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American Morning

Battle Over Prewar Intelligence Gets Even Uglier; In Iraq, Distrust Between Shiites and Sunnis in Danger of Reaching Catastrophic Levels

Aired November 17, 2005 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Miles O'Brien. The battle over prewar intelligence gets even uglier. The vice president blasting Democrats for Iraq complaints, and the Democrats fire right back. We're live on the story.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Soledad O'Brien. In Iraq, distrust between Shiites and Sunnis in danger of reaching catastrophic levels after shocking evidence of torture is revealed. A live report from Baghdad is straight ahead.

M. O'BRIEN: And the latest in the battle of the bulge. Could a pill really be the big difference in taking off those pounds? Results of a surprising new study on this AMERICAN MORNING.

S. O'BRIEN: Good morning. Welcome, everybody.

It's interesting, I think for a long time people have been looking for that magic bullet, the pill that you just can take it, you can lose the 15 pounds, 20 pounds more, whatever, that you need to lose. And I'm not sure that this particular pill -- they're talking about Meridia -- is it in and of itself. We're going to get into that this morning.

M. O'BRIEN: Well, yes, I think we all want that silver-bullet solution, but there are no silver-bullet solutions, and there's no silver-bullet answer to this debate over prewar intelligence. The president traveling -- he's 7,000 miles away. Used to be there'd be no debate over foreign policy while a president traveled. Not so now.

S. O'BRIEN: Things have changed. Coordinated effort you're really seeing from the administration. In fact, let's talk about the war of words over Iraq. And now Vice President Dick Cheney is in the mix, blasting critics in a speech he made last night.

White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president in South Korea. She joins us this morning live from Busan.

Suzanne, Good morning to you. Do you think that debate really here is overshadowing what's happening with the president where you are?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It certainly seems to be overshadowing this. I mean, this is something that President Bush simply cannot escape, the debate over prewar intelligence, the controversy, but it's a debate, Soledad, that the president, the vice president, very much prepared for, part of an aggressive campaign to what they say is setting the record straight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): President Bush touring South Korea's oldest Buddhist temple, 7,000 miles away from home, but not out of reach from his political troubles.

Earlier in the day, appearing with South Korea's president for an Asian trade summit, Mr. Bush jumped at the chance to answer Democratic criticism that the White House used misleading intelligence to go to war with Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is serious business, winning this war. But it's irresponsible to do, what they've done. So I agree with the vice president.

MALVEAUX: The vice president just hours earlier in Washington let loose on the Democrats.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRES. OF THE UNITED STATES: And the suggestion that's been made by some U.S. senators, that the president of the United States or any member of this administration purposely misled the American people on prewar intelligence is one of the most dishonest and reprehensible charges ever aired in this city.

MALVEAUX: Cheney has kept a relatively low profile since the indictment of its chief of staff Scooter Libby in the CIA leak case. Now he's assuming a job he had during the presidential elections, stinging the opposition with the sharpest of words.

SEN. HARRY REID (D), MINORITY LEADER: Unfortunately, he brought his bunker mentality with him to the speech. He's repeating the same tired attacks we've heard from administration officials over the last two weeks.

MALVEAUX: The White House campaign-style offensive has been criticized by Republican Senator Chuck Hagel. The Vietnam veteran says questioning the government is not unpatriotic, but the president draws a distinction.

BUSH: Listen, patriotic is (INAUDIBLE) to disagree with the president. It doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when people are irresponsibly using their positions and playing politics.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And, Soledad, of course, all this comes at the same time he tried to bolster his credibility on the world stage as an international leader. Tomorrow the APEC Summit begins. He'll be meeting with some 20-something leaders. He'll be talking about global trade, and then on to China, and that's where he's going to be talking about reforming the economy -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Suzanne, certainly no indication this issue is going to disappear anytime soon. Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president. Thanks, Suzanne -- Miles. M. O'BRIEN: In Iraq, the government there investigating some potentially explosive accusations, claims that more than 160 Iraqi prisoners were tortured by fellow Iraqis. Officials have been talking to reporters about this, this morning in Baghdad.

Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the press conference that lasted more than an hour, interior minister Bayan Jabr denied rumors strenuously that the interrogations were designed to intimidate and attack the Sunni community in Baghdad. Those rumors have been ripe. He said that was untrue. He said that they had a very dangerous Shia criminal, a terrorist, he said, that they were interrogating inside the bunker system. The numbers of detainees he gave was at a variance, a marked variance from those we have heard from the prime minister, who said 173 detainees, the interior minister, the deputy interior minister, who said 161 detainees. Bayan Jabr, the interior minister, said only seven detainees, only five of those requiring hospital treatment, he said.

He did appear again to be very defensive at times. Indeed he said that he was under pressure from people inside the interior ministry to hold the press conference. He said he didn't want to hold this press conference. He did say there would be a thorough investigation. He did say that his officers were not involved in human-rights violations.

He said that the bunker system, as he described this detention facility, had been in place for many years, been in place during Saddam Hussein's regime, and he described it as sort of being an underground facility capable of withstanding bombings. He said there were 26 officers there, and there was a judge on the site able to give judgments against some of the detainees there.

He strenuously denied the human-rights violations, but did accept that he was responsible for the facility. Indeed, he said at the weak end, he gave permission for General Horse (ph), the U.S. commander who went the and discovered this detention facility and the tortures late on Sunday. He said that he had nothing to hide. When he met the General Horse, he said he gave him permission to go into the facility, he told the officers guarding detention facility to allow General Horse and his men in.

So he accepted responsibility for what was going on there, but denied acts of torture, and denied that the detentions were targeting Sunnis.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

M. O'BRIEN: Marines having a tough go of it on the front lines, trying to win back a little-known town in northwest Iraq, Ubaydi in Operation Steel Curtain. Wednesday was a particularly hard day for the military, five Marines killed. Officials telling us they had to clear at least two dozen bombs, and three dozen car bombs before even entering the city -- Soledad.

S. O'BRIEN: Well, here at home, a nationwide manhunt for two murders who escaped from prison because there were no guards. It happened at an Iowa prison on Monday in Fort Madison. And you can see there along the Mississippi River, as we Google in. The situation, obviously, has the local people just terrified.

Keith Oppenheim has our report this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two convicts may be on the loose somewhere in this idyllic town, Fort Madison, Iowa. Convicts eluding police after escaping from the state prison here on Monday. And people who live here, are scared.

RICK BERRY, FORT MADISON RESIDENT: These guys have nothing to lose, so it's a great possibility that if they were cornered, they could hurt someone.

OPPENHEIM: Schools were locked down and residents were locking their doors too. Trudy Eid has seven children.

TRUDY EID, FORT MADISON RESIDENT: They're a little scared. My oldest one was in lockdown for about five hours yesterday, so he was a little bit freaked out with that one yesterday.

OPPENHEIM: Police say 34-year-old Martin Shane Moon and 27-year- old Robert Joseph Lajondrei (ph) scaled a wall and escaped Monday from the Iowa State penitentiary. Moon has been serving a life sentence for murdering his roommate in Iowa 15 years ago. Lajondrei was doing life for the kidnapping and attempted murder of a female taxicab driver in Las Vegas. He was transferred to Iowa last year.

Authorities say the men had been working in a prison furniture shop, and used upholstery webbing to scale the wall. Investigators believe one of them stole a bicycle, then rode it to this Fort Madison neighborhood about a mile-and-a-half away.

(on camera): Police say a 1995 Gold Pontiac Bonneville was outside on the street. No one was in it, but it was running, because the owner of that vehicle made a quick stop at a friend's house. Detectives say the escapees, Moon and Lajondrei, left in that car, and the question is, why hasn't that vehicle been spotted since?

GENE MEYER, IA. DIV. OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION: I would have thought we might have had a sight of the vehicle by now. We haven't.

OPPENHEIM (voice-over): The search for the escapees has gone nationwide. Meanwhile, some Iowa lawmakers say the prison wasn't secure. State Senator Gene Fraise said budget cuts led to installing security wires, rather than manning all watch towers at all times. The tower near the southwest wall was unmanned when they scaled the wall there. GENE FRAISE, IOWA STATE SENATE: If we would have had someone in the towers, the chance of them getting over the walls was about a chance of winning the Lottery.

OPPENHEIM: Authorities keep warning the public.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE Because they will do anything to keep from returning to the penitentiary.

OPPENHEIM: The escapees could be armed and dangerous.

Keith Oppenheim, CNN, Fort Madison, Iowa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: And of course you remember the name Brian Nichols. he's the guy escaped from an Atlanta courthouse last March. He was accused of killing four people, stands accused now of killing four people.

Well, it turns out that he might have been trying to get away again. Fulton County Prison officials say they found letters from Nichols working out an escape plan with another inmate. Officials say no specific dates were mentioned, though overtaking a deputy was discussed. SWAT members are now guarding Nichols.

Later this morning, in our 9:00 hour, we're going to talk with an author and former prison guard about this apparent rash of recent prison breaks.

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, adding insult really to injury. FEMA cuts off funds to a couple who lost absolutely everything in Hurricane Katrina, because the agency says they don't like the way they're spending their money.

M. O'BRIEN: That's just The first on the list of FEMA issues this morning. We'll get to the rest of them, too.

Also ahead, a pill, just take this pill, Soledad, and you will lose weight. And I'm not implying that you need to lose weight, of course.

S. O'BRIEN: I'm glad to hear that.

M. O'BRIEN: But if you did, would it be a magic pill is the question? There;s a study that would say maybe not.

S. O'BRIEN: Everybody is looking for one.

Also a big question, did the oil executives lie to Congress about secret meetings with Vice President Dick Cheney? If they did, what could happen to them now? Andy Serwer is taking a look as he minds your business just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: FEMA, FEMA, FEMA. All right, FEMA is having a bad year, to say the least. We told you yesterday about kicking out all those people in hotel rooms. They've got to be out by December 1st. Where are they going to go? Now we have this. The agency is out of money. Maybe that's why they're kicking the people out of the hotels. They're also temporarily stopping flood-insurance payments for Katrina victims. Did you hear that? they're stopping flood-insurance payments? These people have paid for insurance. They're not going to get anything back, so they say. This has never been done before. FEMA said it's waiting for Congress to authorize a little more cash.

Meanwhile, a Mississippi couple who lost everything says the agency is cutting them off unfairly.

CNN's Ed Lavandera with that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what's left of Russell and Tammy Hayward's neighborhood in Long Beach, Mississippi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was our life.

LAVANDERA: This is everything they own now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is our new hamper, and pots and pans.

LAVANDERA: All courtesy of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, basic items, to jump start their new life in San Antonio. But the Haywards have no home of their own and have been living with friends. To make matters worse, FEMA is now cutting them off.

RUSSELL HAYWARD, KATRINA EVACUEE We've basically been denied assistance because we can't give them rent receipts to prove that the money that they give us was spent on rent, so they're done.

LAVANDERA: The problem started when Russell Hayward received a $2,000 check from FEMA, and this letter explaining how the money should be spent.

HAYWARD: "Assistance for housing or other essential needs."

LAVANDERA (on camera): And so to you that meant I can spend this on whatever I need?

HAYWARD: Essential needs.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Then a second check arrived in the mail, this one for $2,300.

(on camera): And you thought that I got that check, and these same kind of rules applied.

HAYWARD: Exactly. Exactly. So that's why we went out and, I mean, we bought pots and pans, and glasses and dishes, and we didn't buy anything that you don't have in your house.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): But three weeks later another letter arrived, specifying that the second check could only be used on housing. It was too late. The money had been spent, mostly at Wal- Mart. The Haywards don't understand why FEMA has cut them off.

TAMMY HAYWARD, KATRINA EVACUEE: We're not asking them to pay our rent for the rest of our life, just a little start, you know. The first couple of months, and then we can do it ourselves.

HAYWARD (on camera): FEMA refuses to answer questions about the Hayward's case, because they, and 12 other families, are suing FEMA for more assistance. In a statement, FEMA said it's acting as quickly as possible to help all evacuees, but FEMA says they must also act as, quote, "good stewards" of taxpayer dollars.

(voice-over): Russell works in construction, but is recovering from hernia surgery. So he must rest for six weeks. Tammy is still unemployed. And they don't have enough savings to get out on their own.

R. HAYWARD: I've never been through a major storm. I've never had to uproot my wife and my life and relocate just for safe living conditions. I'm not a mind reader. I don't know what to do. But I'm not the only one in this boat.

HAYWARD: Ed Lavandera, CNN, San Antonio, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

S. O'BRIEN: Well, some senators not really satisfied with some of the answers that it got from the oil-company executives. You remember those hearings last week. They want a redo in some way, maybe.

Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business" this morning.

M. O'BRIEN: A little mulligan kind of thing.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Yes, it's really interesting stuff. You'll remember this last week, where the executives from those top oil companies were testifying before senators, being grilled, and now there's more fallout. And it doesn't have to do with high prices or windfall taxes; it has to do with would they were being completely candid when they were asked if executives from those companies met with Dick Cheney's energy task force in 2001 to provide recommendations to help the president and the vice president come up with an energy policy.

Senator Frank Lautenberg asked the executives some questions. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: Did your company or any representatives in your companies participate in Vice President Cheney's energy task force in 2001?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be honest -- no, I wasn't here then.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERWER: Now "The Washington Post" had a document that suggests, in fact, executives from those companies were at that task force, which raises a big question, why would they lie, or if they didn't know, why don't they simply say we didn't know whether more junior executives were there?

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, very definitive answers -- no, we weren't there. No, no, no.

SERWER: And it's just -- I don't understand. It's kind of mind boggling. Interesting also that they were not sworn in. So, in fact, if they were not telling the truth, they cannot be found to have committed perjury. Remember that. It becomes sort of a key issue.

M. O'BRIEN: I thought that -- I thought the swearing in part was just a formality, and that they still were under oath.

SERWER: OK, they're under oath so they can be fined, but it's not actually perjury.

Meanwhile, the Democrats -- an interesting wrinkle, meanwhile the Democrats want them back, and they also want the attorney general to investigate.

S. O'BRIEN: Maybe not voluntarily this time.

SERWER: I would say so.

S. O'BRIEN: Interesting.

SERWER: Indeed.

S. O'BRIEN: Really fascinating.

All right, Andy, thanks.

M. O'BRIEN: Still to come, a new study on obesity, looking for that magic bullet to lose weight. Mixed news: There's a pill that may work, but not by itself.

Stay with us for more AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: So, is there a silver-bullet solution for folks who are overweight? Can you take a pill and get rid of the unwanted pounds? There's a new study out which seems to suggest it's not as simple as that. Is it ever as simple as that? The study comes from the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Louis Aronne, an obesity expert at New York Presbyterian Hospital, watched that study carefully and runs a similar sort of program, joins us now to talk about it.

Good to have you with us, Dr. Aronne,

DR. LOUIS ARONNE, OBESITY EXPERT: Thank you, Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's talk about the results of the study, first of all. How big a class of people was it roughly?

ARONNE: There were 225 people in the study, and these are people with medically significant weight problems. The average person weighed about 220 pounds.

M. O'BRIEN: OK, so significant overweight situation. Let's look at the results of the study. There were four groups of people. First group. Just Meridia, which is a weight-loss pill. They lost 11 pounds. Over what period of time was this?

ARONNE: This was over a one year period of time.

M. O'BRIEN: OK, group two, which was Intensive training, but no drugs, 14.7 pounds. In other words, people who did a lot of workout, regiments, or whatever the case may be.

ARONNE: Right.

M. O'BRIEN: And group three took Meridia with brief counseling. In other words, they were told what?

ARONNE: What they did was see a doctor for a brief visit, and the doctor gave them some advice on losing weight, diet and exercise.

M. O'BRIEN: All right, and they did a little better. Finally, group four, Meridia with intensive training. As you might have guessed by now, they're the winners of this contest, 26.6 pounds. What -- any of that surprise you?

ARONNE: It doesn't surprise us, because we run just this kind of program, and we get terrific results. And what we hear is that people will say, well, I took Meridia, and it didn't work as well as I thought it would. The reason is they're not using the behavioral program. They're not doing the diet. They're not doing the exercise. They're not counting calories. And that is where you really get the bang for the buck.

M. O'BRIEN: So there are people out there taking Meridia that doctors are not really giving them the full picture on what they should be doing in conjunction with it?

ARONNE: Right. If you just take the medication, it probably isn't worth it. But if you use the program, you get a doubling of the weight loss. That is tremendously valuable. This is medically significant weight loss. M. O'BRIEN: How much extra effort is involved beyond taking the pill? Is this just a matter of getting out and walking a certain period of time each day, that kind of thing, or is this intensive exercise that would generate that 26-pound weight loss?

ARONNE: No, it's not intensive exercise. Really, if you look at what they did, they followed a diet. So they were given dietary instructions, 1,500 calories a day. People who kept food records lost even more weight. They lost almost 40 pounds.

M. O'BRIEN: And these are people who are just counting calories very carefully, carbohydrates, that kind of thing.

ARONNE: There were counting calories, and they were doing an exercise program.

So this is not something that's an extraordinarily intense program. It's just when you add the two things together, you get a much, much better result.

M. O'BRIEN: So you would recommend the program, but the full program?

ARONNE: I think that for anyone who has this kind of a weight problem, losing weight is important, but if you can't succeed, using the medicine should help you do a lot better.

M. O'BRIEN: Dr. Louis Aronne, who is an obesity expert with New York Presbyterian Hospital and the Weill Cornell Medical Center. Thanks for being with us -- Soledad.

ARONNE: Thank you, Miles.

S. O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the vice president, Dick Cheney fires back at the Iraq war critics. Does he have a point? We're going to talk to a member of Congress about which side is rewriting history. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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