Return to Transcripts main page

American Morning

Saddam Hussein Trial; Is It Civil War?; Meeting Of The Moms

Aired March 15, 2006 - 07:25   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The Saddam Hussein trial, dramatic events underway as Saddam, himself, finally begins testimony. That's been beginning going on nearly a half an hour. CNN Nic Robertson has been in the courtroom, he has stepped out, he is on the line right now. And apparently it's a dramatic scene to say the least.
Nic, tell us what is going on.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Miles, absolutely correct. A dramatic scene. The judge has closed the proceedings to the press. He has told the press they can no longer listen to or watch the trial. That will mean there will be no pictures or sound broadcast of a big portion of the trail.

What we have seen happening over the last half an hour or so, is Saddam Hussein on the stand making political statements, some incendiary statements, the judge has pressed his red button immediately in front of him cutting Saddam Hussein's sound from being transmitted. We have not been able to hear a lot of what Saddam Hussein has been saying.

What we have heard is Saddam Hussein has called on the people of Iraq not to fight amongst themselves but to join together and fight the occupying forces. He says those people who bombed the mosque should join together and fight the occupying forces. He said that on a number of occasions.

The judge increasingly censoring what Saddam Hussein is saying, telling him, shouting at him, in fact, that you're not in this courtroom to advance your arguments, to make your statements against the United States. You're in this courtroom to talk specifically about the criminal case against you, relating to the killing of the 148 people for the assassination attempts on you.

Saddam Hussein, every time he gets back to the microphone, he continues, it appears, with his politically motivated statements. The judge take ago final sanction of continuing the court in a closed session. It will no longer be clear to us at this stage what exactly is being discussed in the courtroom -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Nic, aside from pushing the button and censoring his statements, kicking out the press, how much latitude does the judge have here? Can he just dismiss Saddam Hussein as a witness on his own trial and proceed with the trial if he continues on this political rhetoric?

ROBERTSON: He can. He does have that sanction and he mentioned that when he was advising Saddam Hussein to stick to the issue in hand, to stick to the court case. He said that he was able to -- he was able to send the defendant away. And he got very angry as well with the defense lawyers telling them that if anyone tried to intervene, he would attack the prosecution law against them. He has been joined in his condemnation of what Saddam Hussein is saying by the chief prosecutor. As well, the chief prosecutor once said standing up and shouting at Saddam Hussein, telling him to keep to the facts as well. The courtroom becoming very angry.

It appears what the judge wants to do is to try and settle the differences without the cameras watching, without the media watching, because even when he cuts the microphone, we can still see the body language of what's happens in the court, you can see when the prosecutor stands up and shouts. We can see when he shouts. We can see Saddam Hussein when he points his finger angrily at the judge (INAUDIBLE) at him. None of that we can see now. So it appears the judge wanted to settle this down with nobody watching and try and get it back on track. But he would have the option of the final sanction of sending Saddam Hussein back down to his cell continuing without his testimony.

Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN: Nic, help us understand one structural aspect of this trial and this courtroom. We here in the United States are accustomed to a prosecutor or a defense attorney asking questions, posing questions of a witness on the stand. Is it the judge that is in that role in this case? Or is it, in fact, the prosecution that is doing the talking now? Or the defense? Or -- I have the sense sometimes that it's a bit of a free-for-all.

ROBERTSON: I think, Miles, for those of us that are not familiar with this type of court, it can appear to be somewhat of a free-for- all. But there is a structure. And what this is the 17th day of the court. And what we have seen in the past is the witnesses being presented, is evidence being presented.

But what we have seen over the last couple of court sessions are the defendants being questioned by the judge. The judge brings them to the stand individually, they're able to give their testimony, their defense, if you will. The judge asks them questions during that stage. While they're giving their testimony as well, the prosecution is allowed to follow on with questions also.

The trial, after this phase is over, will enter a new phase, then it will be the turn of the prosecution who will call the defendants to the stand, ask them questions. Following that phase in the trial, then the defense will get their opportunity to call the defendants to the stand and raise issues with them on the stand. So this phase of the trial is really the phase where the defendants give their testimony and the judge questions them over their testimony. Prosecution allowed to follow-up somewhat on that, Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN: OK. So that helps us understand kind of where we are. We're still very early on, really, in spite of the fact that this trial has been going on for so long. These pictures we've been seeing, Nic, first of all, don't show the real outburst just yet. I don't know if we'll even see that videotape. But probably unlikely given all that you've just said and the fact that the media is now out of the courtroom. But it does not show any of his co-defendants. Are they in the courtroom and are they at all interacting with Saddam Hussein or the prosecutors or the judge or the defense, for matter?

ROBERTSON: Miles, this testimony phase, this defendant testimony phase, is unlike the earlier stage in the trial. So only the defendants, in this case Saddam Hussein, in the morning, early on today just his brother. So only the defendant who is giving the testimony has been present in the courtroom.

So he is standing there alone. On his right-hand side, as Saddam Hussein faces the judge, on the right-hand side are a bank of his lawyers. On the left-hand side, the prosecution lawyers. And he is facing the judge.

Again, again, there's a lot you don't see on the camera, Miles. There are several reasons for that. Part of it is to protect the judges, protect defense lawyers, protect prosecution lawyers. There are five prosecution lawyers in the courtroom and only one of them is ever on camera. Only one of them can be named. With the judges as well. Five judges, only one ever on camera. And the defense lawyer, only a handful of those willing to appear on camera.

So there's a lot more in the courtroom than one actually sees on the camera. And, of course, the camera angle is very limited, so you just see either generally the defendant or the judge. And if a judge so chooses, he can cut the cameras and he can have them switch away from an angry defendant, switch away from Saddam Hussein, when he is making his political statements, Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN: Nic Robertson, who is just outside the courtroom and, hopefully, things go a little better, will get back inside soon enough. But for now, no one from the media is inside the trial of Saddam Hussein as he continues what, by all accounts, would be a political diatribe in the context of a trial for accusations of murder in Dujail in 1982. We'll keep you posted as this progresses.

In the meantime, let's get some other headlines in. Carol Costello is in the newsroom with that.

Hello, Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Miles.

And good morning to all of you.

Zacarias Moussaoui could still face the death penalty despite problems with the government's case, although it's much less likely now. Moussaoui the only person charged in connection with 9/11. The judge barring several key witnesses from testifying in his trial. That's after learning this attorney improperly coached some aviation officials. Court resumes on Monday. President Bush talking Medicare again today. He's set to visit a senior citizens center in suburban Maryland. The president was promoting his plan Tuesday near Rochester, New York. He also met with J-Mac, you know the boy with autism who during the span of four minutes got six three-pointers during a basketball game. His parents are along with them.

Deja Vu for NASA and not in that good Yogi Berra way. NASA having a problem with a fuel tank sensor. That means the next space shuttle launch isn't likely before July. A similar problem briefly delayed last summer's launch of Discovery on what was its first flight since the Columbia disaster in 2003.

Michael Jackson facing a deadline or he could be in a heap of legal trouble. He owes employees at his Neverland ranch more than $400,000 in back pay and fees. Seems the pop star hasn't been paying his bills since he moved to the Persian Gulf last year. The money is due today. But, of course, he's not living in the United States, so I don't know what's going to happen, Miles and Soledad. We're going to have to wait and see.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: You want to put money on it? I can give you a good guess about what's going to happen.

MILES O'BRIEN: Why don't you tell us.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: I don't think anybody's going to see a dime today, the deadline, Carol. That's what I'd guess.

COSTELLO: And I think Michael Jackson will stay in Dubai.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Exactly. I'm with you on that, too. All right, Carol, thanks.

MILES O'BRIEN: How do you define civil war? The sectarian bloodshed in Iraq is on the rise, of course. We've been telling you about that. Factions going at each other with deadly veracity. But the Bush administration says it's not civil war. This as word comes of more troops going to Iraq in the coming days. CNN's Barbara Starr joining us live from the Pentagon.

Good morning, Barbara.

In some sense this is all -- becomes a bit of semantic debate because, in reality, what is going on over there is an escalating and more dangerous situation for U.S. troops.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, good morning to you.

Indeed, U.S. military commanders are now looking at the question, has the nature of the war in Iraq really changed?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR, (voice over): Relatives came to this Baghdad morgue for the dreadful task of identifying and collecting the remains of their relatives. This as Iraqi police reported 86 more bodies found in the capitol in just 30 hours. Is this now civil war? The top commander for the region appearing on Capitol Hill says technically it's not.

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. COMMANDER, CENTCOM: We're a long way from civil war. We still have a government. We still have a loyal armed forces. We still have security forces that are at the police level.

STARR: But it is clear the Bush administration is now deeply unsettled by the continuing executions. Intelligence analysts are looking for indicators the Shia versus Sunni sectarian violence could become all-out civil war.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We've been trying to look for a way to characterize what are the ingredients of a civil war and how would you know if there was one and what would it look like?

STARR: Military officials tell CNN they are struggling to identify specific militia elements behind the recent violence. That is crucial to getting the militias to disarm and hopefully lessen the chances of a complete sectarian breakdown.

ABIZAID: We know that there are various sign posts that we should be concerned about with regard to sectarian violence that we've got to watch. We are watching them. We do remain concerned.

STARR: General Abizaid also stressed that Iraqi security forces must be the first line of troops against the militias. U.S. forces will only be in a backup role.

ABIZAID: We believe that the single most important thing that needs to emerge right now in the relatively near future is a government of national unity.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: Miles, U.S. military officials are now confirming this morning an additional 700 U.S. troops, an armored battalion that has been on standby in Kuwait, is now moving into Iraq, into the Baghdad area. They tell us it is not because of the sectarian violence, but that the military has asked for those additional troops. There is an upcoming Shia religious holiday, the parliament is about to be seat and they just want this extra manpower on hand. They say it's the same kind of thing they've done during the election periods. They will be there for a time, then the situation will be reassessed and it will be determined whether that armored battalion stays or not.

Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Soledad.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Forty minutes past the hour. Time to check on the weather with Chad at the CNN Center. Hey, Chad. Good morning again.

(WEATHER REPORT)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: This morning we're going to tell you about a meeting between two mothers. One who lost her son on 9/11, the other who is now watching her son on trial for his life as an al Qaeda conspirator. We'll tell you about that meeting just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Her son is an admitted al Qaeda conspirator. And a federal jury is going to decide if he lives or if he dies. But the mother of Zacarias Moussaoui received a warm welcome on Sunday at a church service in suburban New York. She was even embraced by another mother, a mother who lost her son on 9/11. That mother, Connie Taylor, joins us this morning, along with her husband Bruce, and the pastor, Joe Agne, who invited Aicha el-Wafi to attend.

Nice to see you all. Thanks for talking with us.

CONNIE TAYLOR, MOTHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: Thank you for having us.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: That huge. It was interesting to see. She laid her head on your shoulder and you're comforting her almost like a mother would comfort a child.

CONNIE TAYLOR: Well, in a way, I kind of felt that way, you know?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Did you really?

CONNIE TAYLOR: I really did. She was in such pain. Oh, when I first met her, we -- Bruce and I went there a little early after Joe had asked us to come to meet her before everybody else came. And she was so sad and so apologetic and the tears were just streaming down her face and I asked her if I could hug her and somebody in the mob said you better or something. And I did.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Did you tell her about your son, 37 years old when he died in 9/11? She knew you were a mother, but did you talk . . .

CONNIE TAYLOR: Well, I had an opportunity to do that a little later on, yes.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: You did. And what did she say? Did she want to know the details? I know that in the past she's want to meet some of the 9/11 mothers.

CONNIE TAYLOR: Right.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: But did she -- was she interested in the details about who you were and your life? CONNIE TAYLOR: Actually -- well, we didn't have all that much time to talk. It was a very brief meeting and then there was this social gathering kind of where she spoke to the group through an interpreter because she doesn't speak English.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: What else -- what did she say?

CONNIE TAYLOR: Well, she talked about Moussaoui's young life, which was very difficult. And her life. And talked about her four children and how they grew up in France and she talked about peace. A lot of peace.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: There's a lot of people who would say, how could you hug the woman whose son stands accused, who has confessed to being an al Qaeda conspirator, who many people think is the "20th hijacker"? How could you, who lost a son in 9/11, hug that woman? You know people say that?

CONNIE TAYLOR: I know. I know. But I did it because I was just really interested in talking to her. That's the main reason. I never even thought that she's, in any way, to blame for what her son has done. I mean, she's here to support him, just like any mother would be. And will do anything because of her love for her son. It doesn't matter what he's done, she still loves him, just like you or I or any mother would still love their son.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Bruce, does it surprise you to hear Connie say that at all? To see her . . .

BRUCE TAYLOR, STEPFATHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: No. I know her pretty well.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Three decades or so will do that for you.

BRUCE TAYLOR: I felt the same way. In answer your question, this woman is not the enemy. And I felt great compassion for her as a mother. And the first thought that occurred to me was, there's more than one way to lose a son. And as tragic as 9/11 was for 3,000 families, what she's going through perhaps is even worse.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Why do you think even worse?

BRUCE TAYLOR: Well . . .

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: That's an interesting choice of words.

BRUCE TAYLOR: The 9/11 victims were innocent. Victims. Her son has confessed. He's not innocent. She has to accept that. She has to live with that. And she understands that he's never going to walk free as a free man again. This pains her deeply.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Let me ask the pastor a question. What's the reaction been in the community? Has everybody been as supportive that you invited -- that the church invited her to come and to really take a break from the trial for a couple of days, which is essentially what was behind this? REV. JOE AGNE, MEM. UNITED METHODIST CHURCH: Right. She was with us for four days and everybody who has spoken to me in the community has been very positive. I've not heard anything negative. Not a single word negative. There's even a family in our church that has a child, their daughter flies helicopters in Baghdad, and they said, this is the right thing to do, Joe. This is what our church means. That we're supposed to welcome people who other people might marginalize. So it's been -- everyone's been very supportive.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Does that surprise you at all?

AGNE: No, because there's something about the American public right now that wants to, I think, say yes to love in the midst of all the vengeance and violence that's going on. And I think we experience a real powerful forgiveness and I think the American public is tired of the vengeance and just wants to, you know, to lift up something else about who we are. And I think we had a chance to do that this weekend.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Connie, do you think anything's changed in you from this meeting? I mean, do you see anything differently? Do you feel more forgiving? Do you feel like, you know, I did it? I've met her and I'm, you know, got some kind of closure at all?

CONNIE TAYLOR: Well, actually, she's kind of an extension of the way I felt before because I know everyone who has had this horrible thing happen to them has faced it differently. But I'm not big on hatred. In fact, I think hatred is more harmful to the person hating than the other, the person they are hating. And I've seen that in a lot of -- the people I've found since 9/11 that have shared stories and things. And she is -- and what she is suffering, I think I have more compassion, really, maybe. Maybe that's the answer. Because to think of not only the horrific incident of losing your son, and she knows she has lost him one way or the other, but to also be angry at him because he's caused this to happen. My son didn't cause this to happen. And I'm -- with my son, I'm left with wonderful, loving feelings of a wonderful, loving boy and she'll never have that.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Connie Taylor and Bruce Taylor and the Reverend Joe Agne, thank you for talking with us this morning. It's a personal and private moment and we appreciate you sharing it with us very much. Thanks.

CONNIE TAYLOR: Thank you.

AGNE: You're welcome.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: A short break. We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MILES O'BRIEN: So if I say the words March Madness, do I owe some money to somebody, Andy Serwer?

ANDY SERWER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You could if you're trying to make money off it. I had no idea this is a copyrighted slogan. SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Really?

SERWER: A very interesting case. Yes. And March Madness kicking off right now.

MILES O'BRIEN: Pat Riley did it, right, when he did three-P.

SERWER: Yes, that's right. You remember that. They said that Brent Musburger coined the phrase, but actually, apparently, that's not the case either. Here's the story. A TV production called Intersport is suing the NCAA because the NCAA is trying to prevent this company from using that slogan in mobile phone casts. Now, March Madness, the slogan, is owned by the NCAA and this company Intersport and a third entity, listen to this, the Illinois High School Athletic Association. The three of them share the ownership of this slogan. And apparently the NCAA had licensed the slogan to another mobile phone company and so Intersport would be inviting that agreement. I mean, can't we all just say March Madness? It's March Madness. I don't owe anybody any money.

MILES O'BRIEN: And who coined it. Who coined it? Was it . . .

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: And what's this Illinois High School?

MILES O'BRIEN: Yes, I mean . . .

SERWER: Well, apparently it goes back to someone in Illinois High School history who coined the phrase, apparently. Sorry, Brent Musburger, that's what I'm reading here. It wasn't you. That's according to these stories.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Interesting.

SERWER: That is interesting stuff.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Interesting. Interesting.

SERWER: Want to move on and talk a little bit about gasoline. And this is an interesting guy. T. Boone Pickens. We talk about him from time to time. Fascinating character. Texas oilman. Yesterday giving a speech where he talked about supply and demand of oil and how it would impact gas prices.

First of all, he says, you know, supply and the demand for oil, 85 million barrels a day, that's the supply. He said, easily we're going to go up to 125 million barrels within the next 15 years. And he said, because supply and demand is so tight, expect an oil spike. It's not whether it's going to happen, it's when it's going to happen. That's number one.

Number two, he said, $5 for a gallon of gas, he said, that might not be such a bad thing because it would cut back on demand by U.S. consumers.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Yes, incentify. That's the plan there.

SERWER: Right.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Right.

SERWER: That's right.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Andy, thank you very much.

SERWER: You're welcome.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN: Going to take a look at our top stories coming up in just a moment, including these.

Breaking news. Saddam Hussein testifies for the first time at his trial and what a scene it is.

Whistle blower Sharon Watkins takes the stand in the Enron trial.

A judge may order Google to turn over private data.

Texas firefighters are now bracing for the high winds that could feed more of those wildfires.

And the search continues this morning for seven people who are missing after that dam break in Hawaii.

Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com