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American Morning

Grand Jury Investigating Barry Bonds; Blasts Hit India's Largest Mosque

Aired April 14, 2006 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Possible legal curveball for Barry Bonds. A grand jury looking to evidence he lied under oath about steroids. Our legal analyst Jeff Toobin will weigh in.
Strong storms in Iowa spawn deadly tornadoes. Heavy damage. One death there this morning.

And an incredible story of survival in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. A community comes together to help a family in desperate need. We'll talk with that family in just a little bit.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome -- welcome -- easy for me to say. We're off to a strong start at 8:30.

M. O'BRIEN: Hour and a half to vacation and you're falling apart. 7 S. O'BRIEN: Good morning. Good morning is what I'm trying to say. I'm Soledad O'Brien.

(NEWSBREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

S. O'BRIEN: As CNN reported first, a grand jury is considering whether to indict Barry Bonds for perjury. This comes following Bonds' testimony in connection with the steroids investigation. What could it all mean for Bonds?

Joining us this morning is CNN's senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin and a Shaun Assael is a senior writer for ESPN, the magazine. Gentleman, Good morning.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Hi.

SHAUN ASSAEL, ESPN THE MAGAZINE: Thanks for having me.

S. O'BRIEN: Jeff, let's start with you. The details we don't completely know. It's unclear, for example, if the perjury charge would be specifically that he lied about steroids. It could be something else, steroid use. How serious is a perjury charge, though?

TOOBIN: Ask Martha Stewart. She went to jail for -- making false statements, which is even lesser serious than perjury. You know, it's a felony. People go to prison for it. It's not all that common a prosecution. It's -- you know, it's very serious. S. O'BRIEN: Here's what his lawyer said. He said essentially that. He said Martha Stewart is sort of a similar case. Listen to Barry Bonds' lawyer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think this is always been the case of the Barry Bonds show. It's not been U.S. versus Conte, U.S. versus Anderson. It's U.S. versus Bonds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

S. O'BRIEN: In other words, they've been trying to get him on this. Why would he then let him testify before the grand jury? If he didn't testify, if he took the fifth, there would no statements to say they were, you know, lies.

TOOBIN: It's a very peculiar thing. Again, with Martha, the same thing. I think with celebrities, there's a certain ego involved. Don't want to take the fifth. I have nothing to be ashamed of. But if they're not telling the truth, they can be in big trouble, as Martha was and Barry may be.

S. O'BRIEN: Shaun, he's never tested positive for steroids, has he?

ASSAEL: No. But I mean, baseball also hasn't really had steroid testing until 2002. What was interesting to me was the tact that he took. He went from saying I've never taken anything, to if I did, I didn't know what it was. And that's kind of the trap he's in right now, because you have a mounting amount of evidence that he did know what he was taking or allegedly knew what he was taking. And that's kind of the -- that's the dodge and weave right here.

S. O'BRIEN: When you look at the tape from opening day, fans were booing him. A guy even threw a syringe on the field when he was on the field, as well. He's expected to pass -- he's on schedule to pass the Babe's homerun record. On the day that that happens, if it happens, assuming it happens, what do you think the reaction's going to be?

ASSAEL: I think there are any number of people that yes, stick it to the man, you know, we're Barry fans and like his sort of his -- his surly attitude.

S. O'BRIEN: But as a general sense, he's a cheater.

ASSAEL: I think the general sense is that he was doing what a large number of players were doing in an era in baseball and maybe was sort of at the end of the era and was doing it more than most and is more unrepentant than anybody else.

TOOBIN: If you read this really extraordinary book that just came out by the two "San Francisco Chronicle" reporters, "Game of Shadows," you know, the idea that he could say he didn't know what he was taking -- I mean, that's his defense, apparently, that, you know, I was taking what I thought was flaxseed oil.

S. O'BRIEN: My trainer gave me this and that. I thought it was...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: It just seems preposterous. But prosecutors have to determine what his state of mind was. Was he really lying to the grand jury or is it possible he really did think that he was just taking flaxseed oil? That's the heart of the case

S. O'BRIEN: Is that a tough case to prove? Before we get back to the sports stuff. I mean...

TOOBIN: State of mind is always hard to prove. But if you have witnesses who say we talked about steroids. I talked to him about what I was giving him. I mean, the key witness here, it seems to me, is Greg Anderson, his trainer. And we don't know whether he's cooperating or not. If he's cooperating, it would seem to be the gig is up. But we don't know that.

ASSAEL: And what's interesting about Greg Anderson is that there's a pattern of his dealing with a client. Jason Giambi, in his earlier testimony before another grand jury, sort of articulated the way Anderson worked and he talked in detail about what he was taking, how he was...

S. O'BRIEN: Anderson spoke in detail?

ASSAEL: To Giambi. Giambi recalling Anderson's dealings with him.

S. O'BRIEN: Laid it out completely.

ASSAEL: And so it's sort of strange credulity to think that well, if he dealt that way with Giambi that he wouldn't deal that way with another client as high profile as Bonds.

S. O'BRIEN: But does it come down to a he said, he said? I told him all this and he...

TOOBIN: Well, it depends. I mean, you know, according to the book, there's also possibly the testimony from the mistress, who said Bonds made admissions. Possibly...

S. O'BRIEN: If she's a scorned mistress, you know she'll be on the stand happily.

TOOBIN: But some point it becomes, you know, how many people could be lying? You know, that's it. But I mean, one thing Bonds does have going for him is that it's very hard to make a criminal case based on the idea, oh, he must have known. Of course he knew. He must have. That's not good enough. There's got to be witnesses who say, yes, I told him. Yes, he told me. He made admissions. And we don't know if the witnesses will testify. S. O'BRIEN: If he breaks the record and he's found guilty of perjury, no record? Record? Record with an asterisk? How does it work?

ASSAEL: A celebration from behind bars? I don't know. I mean, this is nowhere that baseball's been before.

TOOBIN: You know, that's a good -- I don't know what the status is. I mean, Major League Baseball just hired former Senator George Mitchell to conduct its own investigation, but I think people are kind of making it up as they go along here. There's no -- I mean, baseball has not been filled with the most noble characters in the world, but they tend not to be convicted felons. And in fairness to Barry Bonds, he hasn't been charged with anything, much less been described as a convicted felon. But, you know, what his status in baseball is, in all of this, I think no one knows for sure.

ASSAEL: I mean, after the Pittsburgh drug trials, I don't think you saw records expunged. So, you know, I'm not so sure that his place in the record books would be expunged by this. Although the asterisk with the steroid era, that's another question.

S. O'BRIEN: Yes, I don't know. All right, guys, thank you very much. Jeff Toobin and Shaun Assael, appreciate it. Shaun, of course, is the senior writer for ESP the magazine -- ESPN the magazine, sorry.

ASSAEL: Thank you.

TOOBIN: It's about extra-sensory perception. He knows all about that, yes.

S. O'BRIEN: That's a whole other segment -- Miles.

M. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much, Soledad.

Some breaking news coming in to us right now. We have confirmed reports of a -- two explosions at a New Delhi mosque. Three people wounded after explosions at a mosque in New Delhi. Two explosions at the largest mosque in the Indian capital. And, apparently, according to CNN India, the bomb was in -- apparently at least one of the bombs in a plastic bag.

Once again, two explosions at the main Jama Masjid mosque in a very congested neighborhood of New Delhi. Police are pursuing this story, obviously. We have some pictures coming in right now. These are Live pictures coming in of the scene there. And I'm just having a difficult time making it out as we see it.

But as we say, this is a significant mosque, two large blasts there. At least three people injured, and we are trying to get you some more facts. As they come in, we'll bring them to you.

A proud al Qaeda member, Zacarias Moussaoui was on the witness stand again yesterday. And it's difficult to find words to describe the depth of the hatred, anger and callousness as he addressed the jury and many of the victims of 9/11 and their families. It was a fitting cap to a wild trial, and at times, the only certainty, it seemed, was the volatility of the defendant.

Now imagine trying to convey all of this in sketches. That is the job of veteran courtroom sketch artist Bill Hennessy. He joins us now from Washington.

Bill, you have covered a lot of trials over the years. This one must have been one for the book, huh?

BILL HENNESSY, MOUSSAOUI COURTROOM ARTIST: Definitely, Miles. It was one of the most sensational, and moving, emotional cases I've ever seen.

M. O'BRIEN: Let's take a look at some of your work yesterday on the stand as Moussaoui was speaking. And as we read what he said, I suppose in, a sense, it must be frustrating to come up with a way of drawing it to evoke that terrible emotion, the horrific statements.

HENNESSY: Yes, that is the challenge. I mean, it is a -- as it played out and you could see the attitude he was going to maintain, and consistently made these statements that were so disturbing. That was what I tried to capture and convey.

M. O'BRIEN: Did you find yourself having a hard time believing what you were hearing?

HENNESSY: No, not really. He's had a -- sort of an attitude throughout the trial, even -- I mean, since his initial arrest. This is a case that's been building over years now. And this attitude actually fit the Moussaoui we've come to know. It's just sort of removed all doubt, frankly. You know, it is that ultimate call is to the jury, but for us in the court, it certainly kind of clarified things.

M. O'BRIEN: Here's a shot here. There's a sketch of him listening, and he has -- I think you captured there kind of a smug approach. Would you describe him as smug as he listened?

HENNESSY: Oh, yes. I'd describe him as smug, and arrogant and, you know, belligerent. You know, I think we've come to know him, I hope, through the sketches and through the trial coverage and descriptions of what he's said, you know, blatantly said during breaks as he walked out of the courtroom, you know, curses to just about everybody involved in the case and to the United States and victims and...

M. O'BRIEN: And at very inappropriate times, grinning. What was that all about that? What was amusing Moussaoui, do you think?

HENNESSY: You know, that was probably some of the most disturbing tough is the fact that he really seemed to take pleasure in some of the most disturbing parts that we watched. From the collapse of the World Trade Centers and the victims' testimony, it all just seemed to amuse him and satisfy him. And, you know, initially, maybe if you thought you'd see any kind of remorse out of this defendant, it's clear now there's none. M. O'BRIEN: Yes. And you also have to somehow come up with an of conveying the emotions of the other players. Did you get a sense from just looking, for example, at the judge here what was going on with her?

HENNESSY: Well, Judge Brinkema is a very serious, no-nonsense judge. And, you know, she's not going to display a whole lot of what she is thinking or feeling. That's sort of her job description to sort of keep that to herself. But you see it in the reaction from the jurors who remain anonymous. I'm not actually able to sketch that, but -- and the family members, and even the attorneys in the case.

M. O'BRIEN: What were you unable to convey in your sketches? As good as those sketches are, what do you wish you could have carried across?

HENNESSY: Well, I hope I did convey it but, you know, the arrogance, and the fact that he found such satisfaction in what we found so disturbing.

M. O'BRIEN: This is a tough question for you. It's a bit of a conflict of interest. I'm going to ask you to step out of your role as a sketch artist here for a moment. Do you think it would have been better for all concerned if this were televised?

HENNESSY: You know, I don't know. I really can't say. In the interests of a court hearing, I don't think it helps to have television coverage. In the interest of conveying sort of what this defendant's attitude is towards our country and maybe to sort of a bigger picture of what our country faces, it probably would have be beneficial to the country to see that. But I think, you know, a court situation is first and foremost about the trial of a specific individual.

M. O'BRIEN: And finally, I think people reading the newspapers this morning, reading those vile statements, you know, wishing people were dead, calling Navy officer who wept on the stand pathetic, scratching their head, wondering how somebody could have such hate for a group of people. Do you have any answer to that?

HENNESSY: I wish I did. I think a lot of us do. I think it is a bit of a wake up to see just how much hatred he harbors, and I don't think he is alone in that regard.

M. O'BRIEN: Courtroom sketch artist Bill Hennessy. Nice work all throughout the trial under very difficult circumstances. Thanks for being with us -- Soledad.

HENNESSY: Thank you, Miles.

S. O'BRIEN: An update on the story, the breaking news that's just coming to us out of India that Miles told you about just a couple of moments ago. We are told that it's two explosions. It's happened at New Delhi's main mosque. You can see the live pictures coming in to us now. It -- these blasts occurred apparently within just minutes of each other. The mosque has now been evacuated, and bomb squads are on the scene, we are told.

The number of injured, though, vary according to some reports. The Associated Press is saying that six people, at least six people, have been injured. And we've got reports from Reuters who are saying that that number is three people injured. Obviously, in the wake of all of this, unclear.

Let's get right to our reporter this morning. We have got Ram Ramgopal of CNN is in New Delhi, and the pictures, I should add, Ram, are coming to us from CNN India.

First, describe for me the scene is like, and tell me a little bit about this mosque.

RAM RAMGOPAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. This mosque, the picture that you were just seeing, is basically one of the oldest mosques in Delhi, from the heart of Delhi in fact, part of the city that's known as Old Delhi. This is perhaps 300 to 400 years old. It's a part of this city that's extremely congested.

And as you rightly pointed out, it's still not clear what was behind these twin blasts. We are just getting information, I mean, in really in dribbles at this point. But we do understand that two explosions occurred just outside this main mosque a short time ago, about 45 minutes ago.

According to the head priest of that mosque, he says that these explosions were about 10 minutes apart, and that at this point it appears that they were within the mosque itself just as evening prayers were finishing.

Again, still not clear as to the number of injuries. But we do understand that there have been a few people injured in this incident.

S. O'BRIEN: Tell me a little bit more, Ram, about this specific mosque. The pictures that we're seeing, as you say, very congested, obviously. And I would imagine if you're talking about evening prayers than all the more crowded just because of that. What do we know about this mosque?

RAMGOPAL: This is a very ancient, significant mosque in Old Delhi. It's a Shia mosque. The Shia population in India is mainly located in the north of India, and of course in Old Delhi it is a significant Shia population.

Now the head priest of this mosque, who goes by the name of Sayeed Ahmed Bukari (ph), is known as the Shahi Imam, the main priest of this mosque. This is a nonlineager (ph) of priests who came in from central Asia, along with the moguls, so this is really a mogul fort, a very significant historic landmark. It's an area where normally even on any given day, there would be hundreds upon thousands of people really gathered in that area.

And at the time of evening prayers, it's usually packed with thousands of worshipers. This is (INAUDIBLE) here, a significant holy day for Muslims, so it is a very significant landmark, both in the historic sense, as well as religious sense, and the fact that there have been twin explosions in that area on a Friday evening is certainly something which would cause some degree of alarm here in New Delhi.

S. O'BRIEN: Any recent threats had come in? Any indication that there would be something happening at this mosque or in the area? One has to, I think, in the days post-9/11, go right first to terror, frankly, as maybe a guess as to what happened.

Then again, I should caution everyone and say we don't know. We have no real details. We just know it's two explosions happening at a very historically significant mosque in New Delhi. But Ram, would there be any reason to suspect or rule out terror?

RAMGOPAL: Well, certainly, the head priest, the Shahi Imam, appears to believe that this was a terrorist attack. He came on -- he was on television on our sister channel, CNN IVN. He appealed to people to combat what he called this terrorist attack together. He made an appeal to both Hindus and Muslims in India's predominantly Hindu country, where the Muslim minority is a significant part of the population. More than 130 million Muslims in this country. So he believes that this is a deliberate attack, aimed at creating a wedge between Hindus and Muslims.

Now, the significance here is that just about a month ago, a Hindu place of worship was attacked in central northern India. And at that point, there was a great deal of concern, again, as to some sort of backlash by Hindus who were at the receiving end. But even after this particular attack, the Shahi Imam going on television, making a national appeal to say that this is something that terrorists are out the create.

But specifically, there was no warning as far as we can tell. There was no specific warning that there was some attack imminent. But certainly, there's some degree of concern that this happened at a very ancient site right in the middle of Delhi on a Friday evening. Back to you.

S. O'BRIEN: All right, Ram Ramgopal from CNN, in New Delhi reporting for us this morning. Thank you for the update. As he mentioned, it's unclear at this hour. Police now on the scene. A bomb squad, as well. Two explosions within just a couple of minutes of each other in New Delhi at a historically significant Shiite mosque.

A short break. We're back in just a moment. Stay with us, everybody. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MARKET REPORT)

M. O'BRIEN: Coming up, we are tracking some breaking news out of India. The old section of Delhi, a pair of blasts at a historic mosque there just as the Friday evening prayer service was to begin. We will bring you up-to-date. We have reports of at least three injuries. We're following it very closely for you. Stay with us for more.

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