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Violence in Iraq Gaining Momentum; Another Israeli Soldier Kidnapping

Aired July 12, 2006 - 08:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: The dizzying pace of violence in Iraq is gaining even more momentum --- 100 people dead, just since the weekend. The killings of the 20 bus drivers we just told you about, the latest chapter in the brutal violence between Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq.
Rhode Island Senator Jack Reed just returned from a trip to Iraq, his eighth visit there. He joins us now from Capitol Hill.

Senator Reed, good to have you with us this morning.

SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: Good morning, Miles.

O'BRIEN: You've been there a lot. You've seen a lot. Are you personally disappointed the fledgling Iraqi government and leaders that government haven't done more to quell this violence?

REED: Oh, I am disappointed, because their survival and the success of our efforts there depend upon the Iraqi government providing security for the people and also providing basic services. And on both counts, both in providing security and providing services, an economy that works, they're lagging far behind what's necessary.

O'BRIEN: Let's listen to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, what she had to say about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECY. OF STATE: No one could have expected that just within weeks of coming to power that the Iraqi government would have been able to stop the violence and completely address a difficult security situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: You say you're disappointed. She says no one would have expected them to really do anything for the violence by this time. Are you being fair to the administration? You did, after all, vote for this war.

REED: Indeed, I think the Iraqi administration, their government, and our civilian advisers and military have to do more. The military -- our military's been carrying the load, but the Iraqi government has to step up. And part of this is that there is violence not only between Sunnis and Shia, but within the Shia ranks. And that provides a very difficult challenge for Prime Minister Maliki in trying to organize his own forces and get them to cooperate for security's sake.

O'BRIEN: We'll give you an opportunity here. You, as a U.S. senator, West Point graduate, Army ranger, you have as much expertise and knowledge as anybody on this. What specifically would you do right now to try to turn things around there?

REED: Well, first, you have to get control of the security situation in Baghdad. There was an attempt to do that by introducing 70,000 troops, Iraqi forces. They may have to be augmented.

But I think also what you have to do is recognize that part of the fuel for this violence is the unemployment, the lack of hope, the inability of the government to provide basic services. When I spoke to our military commanders on the ground, they stressed not only providing security support for the government of Iraq, but also economic reconstruction support. So that -- I think both efforts have to be emphasized. And, frankly, the Iraqis haven't been able to manage the security side of it effectively, and we haven't been able to provide the kind of assistance which is necessary on the economic side.

O'BRIEN: Well, you mentioned economic assistance. There's a piece in "The Washington Post" this morning, which I'm sure you saw, that essentially the government is at the point now where they're ready to turn over the reconstruction to the Iraqis. Is this the right time to be doing that? Don't they need our help still, more now, perhaps more now ever than before?

REED: Well, they need our assistance, and we need also to rally the international community. There are billions of dollars of pledges that have not yet been committed to Iraq. We need to get the resources into Iraq. We need to give them technical support. And we also have to begin to develop our policies, not on these grandiose projects, the infrastructure projects, but just get people to work. And I think one effective way to do that is to, if we have to, funnel resources through our military commanders on the ground to get Iraqis to work. That would be one major anecdote to this violence.

O'BRIEN: Well, but violence, of course, makes it difficult to get to work, particularly when your bus driver just gets killed by -- in the wake of sectarian violence as we just reported, so obviously difficult to separate the violence from the economic issue.

REED: You're absolutely right. I mean, this is one of the classic problems of violence inhibits reconstruction, and without reconstruction, it creates a cadre of young people on the street that will be even more violent. But we have to break through this very difficult situation.

The first obvious effort is to try to stabilize the situation in terms of the security situation on the street. That might require additional Iraqi security forces there, maybe additional American forces there. But that would just buy us time. We have to start devoting ourselves to developing an Iraqi government that works, that people feel is legitimate, and that they will support. They'll go out of their way and turn their back on the terrorists and support their government.

O'BRIEN: Are you saying more U.S. troops should be on the ground there now? If so, how many?

REED: No, I don't. I think, in fact, frankly, when I spoke to both General Casey and to other commanders, they reiterated what General Casey said in Washington, that they anticipate towards the end of the year, this year, to begin a redeployment of American forces.

I think that the key aspect here, once again,is Iraqi security forces, not just the army, but also the police, making sure that the Iraqis are there on the ground. They have the best insights, best skills, the language ability. They're the ones that, I think, will make the ultimate difference.

O'BRIEN: Final thought here. You've studied warfare at West Point. You would know what a civil war is when you see it, I presume. Are you seeing a civil war over there? And if it isn't a civil war, what is it?

REED: We're seeing a low-grade civil war. We're seeing rival political factions vie for power. This is a lot about who will run Iraq now and in the future. And it has the characteristics of a civil war. It doesn't have the formality of organized armies opposing each other. But there is a struggle, a violent struggle, for political power. And by that definition, I think it constitutes at least a low- level civil war.

O'BRIEN: Do they teach you at West Point it's a good place to be in the middle of a civil war?

REED: They teach you, try to avoid situations where you have very limited options and that your future is in the hands of others. And I think we've got ourselves -- the administration has, got us in a situation where our options are very limited, and that, in fact, we're in a very difficult and potentially precarious position.

O'BRIEN: Rhode island senator Jack Reed, thanks for being with us.

REED: Thanks, Miles.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Another Israeli soldier kidnapping; another Israeli invasion. This time it's happening on a new front. To the north, the border with Lebanon. It began when Hezbollah soldiers grabbed two soldiers near the border. Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is calling it all an "act of war."

Joining me now is Edward Walker. He is the former U.S. ambassador to both Israel and Egypt, therefore offering a unique perspective on all of this.

Ambassador Walker, good to have you with us.

AMB. EDWARD WALKER, FMR. ASST. SECY. OF STATE, NEAR EAST. AFFAIRS: Thank you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: When the prime minister says an act of war, is that a constructive thing to say at this point?

WALKER: It may be not so constructive, but it certainly is accurate. There is an internationally recognized boarder there that the U.N. put into place, along with the help of us. I was helping to negotiate that border with the French and the British.

Hezbollah, by all accounts, attacked Israeli with rockets across the border and then captured two soldiers. That's a military action and it would constitute an act of war in my view.

O'BRIEN: The fact that Hezbollah, in many ways, mimicked what Hamas did in Gaza in kidnapping soldiers, presumably there'll be some sort of demand for prisoner swap. Does that surprise you? Is this a copycat thing, at all a surprise to you?

WALKER: Well, it's not surprising. But Hezbollah has done this before, and has been successful at it before, which is one reason why you continue to have efforts to capture Israeli troops, because they know that it will ultimately lead to negotiations and then release of some Palestinian prisoners. But it may not happen this time. And I think that Lebanon and Hezbollah is going to pay a price, as the Gazans are paying a price.

But the real culprit in this whole charade is, in my view, Syria and Iran, who support Hezbollah, and which would not have done this without their consent.

O'BRIEN: So the Syrians pulling the strings...

WALKER: I believe the Syrians or the Iranians.

O'BRIEN: Or the Iranians.

WALKER: Correct.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about negotiations for just a moment. Publicly, nobody admits to them, but they happen all the time in the Middle East. Will there be negotiations?

WALKER: Well, yes, they happen all the time, as you say, and it is a constructive way of avoiding going into a larger sense of violence, in which could embroil Syria, it could embroil the whole northern area up there, which I don't think anybody wants.

But this is a time for the United States to step forward. We have a responsibility because we helped to negotiate that border. The United Nations has a responsibility. France, England and others have a responsibility. It's time for us to step up to the plate and get active.

O'BRIEN: Well, we've got a lot of things to take steps to the plate to, when you look at Iran and north Korea.

WALKER: Yes.

O'BRIEN: You could make a case that we perhaps don't have the attention span, or the focus or the resources to really pay proper attention to what's going on in Israel right now. What do you think of that?

WALKER: Well, I think there is an argument for that. And certainly the fact that we're so bogged down in Iraq has created a situation which people in the region feel they can do anything they damn well please. That's not very constructive. And I think we're just going to have to make the resources available and have the attention of our top leaders to this problem, as well as the others. It's a stretch, but we have allies in this issue. And we have legitimacy on our side, and we ought to take advantage of it.

O'BRIEN: What steps should the U.S. be taking now that are not being taken, in your view?

WALKER: In my view, a very, very severe message to the Syrians -- this is it, time to stop, we're going to go back to the United Nations, if necessary, we're going to look at sanctions if necessary, and also, making sure that you've got the French and the British on your side.

O'BRIEN: If that doesn't happen, do you see this widening even further?

WALKER: It could easily widen further. The Israelis have already overflown Damascus. They have made it clear that there is a Damascus element even before the Hezbollah thing, because of Damascus' support of Hamas. I think it could possibly widen. We may see reoccupation of southern Lebanon, which would be unfortunate, because it's much harder to get out of a place that you're occupying, as we've seen in Gaza, than it is to get into it.

O'BRIEN: Those kinds of things, as you say, do last for quite some time.

WALKER: A long time.

O'BRIEN: It's hard to even conjure up the notion of some sort of framework, or process or road map, whatever you want to call it, towards peace at this juncture.

WALKER: That's true, but I think if you could try to pay -- if you could try to start talking to the Lebanese government as well in order to resuscitate the idea that maybe it's time for Lebanon to make peace with Israel. Certainly, it's past time. It's been done before. It failed. But that may be the opening we need.

O'BRIEN: Ambassador Edward Walker, great insights, thank you for joining us this morning, helping us understand what's going on. He is currently with the Middle East Institute, by the way. We appreciate your time.

WALKER: Thank you. O'BRIEN: Coming up on the program, Discovery astronauts doing a little work in space this morning, although they'd probably do it for free, I'd bet. We'll show you how today's job could prevent a future shuttle disaster as they try some bondo in space, sort of. Live pictures. We'll have more, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

M. O'BRIEN: Let's go to space, shall we? Two-hundred miles above us, moving at 17,500 miles an hour, a pair of spacewalkers doing some work. There they are. You see the red stripe there. And that should cue that is Pier Sellers, EV-1, as they like to call him. He's the more experienced of the two, has the stripes on his suit. He's right beside EV-2, Mike Fossum. And they -- after all the heavy lifting they've done, doing some work on the space station and getting that thing together and testing an extra long boom for repairs of the space shuttle. Right now they're doing kind of a laboratory experiment. They're testing out some techniques for perhaps one day repairing the most sensitive parts of a shuttle heat shield, the parts that withstand 3,000 degrees Fahrenheit on re-entry. This is from last year's spacewalk where they tried this stuff out for the first time. The technical term is no wax (ph). The astronauts call it black goo. I call it space bondo. You choose. You decide. The important thing is Make sure you have your caulking gun and your spackling capability at the ready. Make it nice and smooth. Very important.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Like grout?

M. O'BRIEN: It's kind of like grout. That's a good analogy, Andy Serwer.

In any case, last time they tried this, they discovered that there were bubbles in it. And one the real issues is at what temperature do you apply it and what temperature is it while it is curing. Listen to Pier Sellers before he left the earth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIERS SELLERS, DISCOVERY ASTRONAUT: Our team has worked out a schedule so we'll try this under optimal conditions, very warm surface, warm material. All the bubble should come out. We should get a good fix.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

M. O'BRIEN: That last go-round, they also did some experimenting with tile repairs. They're not going to do any tile repairs. They decided that it worked pretty well, kind of tested it out. Don't need to experiment it on it. It's not as critical. The real issue is going to be, as you look at some live pictures once again from space. There they are right now, as the astronauts -- here, basically, that's the pad with the stuff that is mocked up to be broken heat shield.

Basically, they're going to have to apply this stuff at just the right time of day, sort of before orbital sunset when the temperatures is high, let it cure while the temperature decreases, and then they'll use an infrared device to see how well they did.

There you have it. We're watching it. About an hour and 20 minutes in, another five hours or so to go. Another day in space. And speaking of space and spacey -- no, I'm sorry, Andy Serwer, that was just too easy. I didn't mean that.

SERWER: The space man. Well, we were talking about space grout.

O'BRIEN: Space grout.

SERWER: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

SERWER: I understand.

Business news coming up?

O'BRIEN: Let's do that.

SERWER: To tell you about. First off, AOL -- will it or will it not go free? We have news from its parent company -- sort of. And the video game business is old enough to go retro, Miles. We'll tell you all about that.

O'BRIEN: Thank you, Andy.

Also ahead, back in black -- Lewis Black will join us live in the studio. His book is now out in paperback. It's called "Nothing's Sacred." And he's kind of an angry guy. We'll ask him if that's for real or just part of the schtick. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: CNN's parent company Time Warner is remaining tight-lipped about its business strategy for AOL. And Andy Serwer is here "Minding Your Business." And they're here telling us we're just going to have to wait, right?

SERWER: That's it, Brianna. We don't have any inside word here. the "Wall Street Journal," you may remember, first reported last week that AOL was going to go free, that the company was going to stop charging its customers who high speed or dial up through another service, forgoing the $25.90 fee. Instead, it would go to an advertising-based model.

The company was mum until now -- sort of. Now it's sort of not mum. It's saying that it will reveal all at a meeting with investors on August 2nd. But saying that a lot of the speculation concerning these reports is erroneous, especially those reports that suggest the companies is going to lose oodles of money during this changeover. So we shall see kind of a story.

O'BRIEN: Well, you might say it's kind of a big move.

SERWER: It's a huge move. And, you know, listen, Google's free, last time I checked. Yahoo!'s free last time I checked. The walled- garden approach, I think, except in very specific cases, say "Consumer Reports", "The Wall Street Journal," they're able to charge. You have a big open service like AOL, it's difficult to charge, I think.

O'BRIEN: Yes, well, I'm in favor of free, generally.

SERWER: Yes, especially when it comes to ice cream and things like that. That would be a great business model, at least for customers.

O'BRIEN: That would be good, yes.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

(NEWSBREAK)

KEILAR: Stay with us on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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