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American Morning

Civil War in Iraq; Tape Released of Kidnapped Journalists

Aired August 23, 2006 - 09:34   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning we're talking about civil war. Civil war or not a civil war really is the question in Iraq. Here's what President Bush said about that on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRES. OF THE UNITED STATES: I hear a lot of talk about civil war. I'm concerned about, that of course. I -- and I've talked to a lot of people about it. And what I found from my talk are that the Iraqis want a unified country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Violence at an all-time high. Does the definition of civil war really matter? What could a civil war in Iraq mean for U.S. troops? We've got a roundtable this morning.

CNN's Michael Ware joins us from Baghdad. He's covered Iraq for many years. John Pike is the director of globalsecurity.org. He's in Washington D.C., and CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider is in L.A. for us.

Gentlemen, good morning. Nice to see all of you.

A quick rundown of what some people have been saying about the definition of civil war, and the definition of what's happening in Iraq. Condi Rice says it's not a civil war. General Abizaid says it could move toward civil war. Secretary Rumsfeld says it is not a classic civil war. The former ambassador Peter Galbraith says it is a civil war. And Chuck Hagel says, well, maybe it's a civil war.

Bill Schneider, let's begin with you. Why does the definition, civil war or not, matter.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POL. ANALYST: Because when Americans see the words "civil war," they read can't win. What it means to Americans is this is a war between Shiites and Sunnis who are or murdering each other. It's their fight. It doesn't involve the United States. What's our interest in a fight between Shia and Sunni, very different from an Islamic radical insurgency they targets either the United States or the Iraqi government. That's an internal fight, one that the United States feels we have no side in.

O'BRIEN: Michael Ware, you've been on the ground there a long time. Does parsing the definition, splitting hairs, make a definition on the ground there? MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, when people are hunkered down in their suburbs, afraid to go to an adjoining suburb, because it's dominated by a different religious sect, when they don't dare send their kids to school because they have to cross the sectarian line, and when they're randomly finding the bodies of their neighbors in the streets and they live in fear of death squads from a U.S.- backed government ministry of interior showing up at their house in the middle of the night, I don't think definitions really matter.

You ask any Iraqi here, and they will tell you, they are mired in the blood of the civil war. And this sectarian strife is the legacy of the al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. He mapped it out in 2004 -- he said, "This is what I plan to do." And the mere fact that Secretary Rice, President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld and General Abizaid now have this term "civil war" on their lips shows you after their previous reluctance to mention it just how dire this has become.

O'BRIEN: From the military's perspective, Mr. Pike, the definition might not matter to Iraqis on the ground, it does seem to matter a lot to the Pentagon.

JOHN PIKE, GLOBALSECURITY.ORG: Well, it does matter a lot. Here in the United States, the Yankees called it the Civil War, and down in Alabama growing up, we were told to call it the "war of northern aggression."

In Iraq, the military has basically taken the definition of a civil war to mean the outbreak of ethnic cleansing, possibly genocidal, the way we saw in Bosnia or the way we saw it in Rwanda.

The critical element in those countries was that the ethnic cleansing was organized openly, and once it started it was essentially unstoppable. The American objective is to prevent that from happening in Iraq, and thus far it hasn't started.

General Caldwell told me not too long ago that he considered the definition of civil war to be civilians versus civilians. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM CALDWELL, SPOKESMAN, MULTINATION FORCE/IRAQ: When you're down inside the city and you talk to a normal Iraqi down there, he and she doesn't have anything against the other religious sect. It's the extreme elements that continue to run around with death squads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: They take a look at the number of displaced people, Michael Ware, don't they, when they're really calculating whether it's civil war.

WARE: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they've talked about the destruction of the lives of ordinary Iraqi people; 35,500-plus families have been internally displaced, now spread across (INAUDIBLE) camps within the country, because they can't live in their own street anymore, because they've been driven out by a rival sect. I mean, to these people this very much does feel like civil war. I mean, you have these rival gangs, which are fighting each other in the streets.

And I mean, let's look at the heart of the U.S. military intelligence. I mean, despite what the spokespeople say, their tests used to be a few months ago whether this kind of bloodletting between the sects have its own self-sustaining momentum, or whether it's just punctuated by Zarqawi's terrorist acts. You talk to them today, and they say, yes, we've now found our momentum. Our fear, though, is whether it spreads to the broader body politick.

So the definition keeps shifting because the violence keeps reaching them as thousands and thousands are dying every month.

O'BRIEN: There are huge political implication here in the U.S. for the term "civil war." Bill, let me ask you a question, does it mean that troops, U.S. troops, should leave if it becomes a civil war? Or does it mean that U.S. troops can't possibly leave if it becomes a civil war?

SCHNEIDER: I think the pressure will intensify for American troops to leave from the American people, because, again, civil war is not our fight. It's their fight. It's Sunnis versus Shiites, and Americans feel that they have no real stake in that fight because it's not a fight involving either the United States or necessarily the government of Iraq.

What Iraq does not have and what Americans don't see is a national leader of stature who embodies the aspirations of the entire Iraqi people. There is no Gandhi, there is no Nelson Mandela, there is no George Washington, there is no Nasser. What they need in that country is someone who embodies the hopes and aspirations of the entire nation, and there doesn't seem to be a figure who does that.

O'BRIEN: Our last question in the last few seconds goes back to John Pike. If it does come to everyone agreeing, John, to a definition of civil war, does that mean that the country's going to have to be divided up?

PIKE: Well, the problem in dividing up the country is that the large stretches of the country, you have intermixed population, and that's where this concern about the ethnic cleansing comes in. Separating those populations would be a horrifically bloody process. You might get Saudi Arabia and Iran drawn in, gas goes to $5 or $6 a gallon. It could be a real problem.

O'BRIEN: John Pike from globalsecurity.org, CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider, CNN's Michael Ware in Baghdad. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being with us this morning. We certainly appreciate it.

We've been updating you on the situation for those journalists who were captured in Gaza. We've got some videotape. We want to show it to you now. Let's go ahead and start rolling some of this videotape. The -- it looks as if this previously-unknown group, Holy Jihad Brigades, is claiming that they have captured these two journalists. You can see in the pictures they look well, which is terrific news. Steve Centanni and cameraman Olaf Wiig, 36 years old. Steve, 60 years old.

They were abducted on August 14th. The main militants in Gaza had actually denied any involvement. That was very unusual. Usually in the kidnappings, people aren't held for very long at all, hours in fact. The government, they had said, were working very hard to try to release the kidnapped journalists.

According to witnesses on that date, August 14th, a couple of vehicles blocked the journalists' TV van in central Gaza, and then a masked man put the gun to the journalists' bodyguard, forced them to the ground, then the kidnappers took the two men. Family members of both men, we've heard over the last several days, pleading for any word, any information.

And so we're getting some of the very first pictures virtually 10 days after they were kidnapped. Terrific to be seeing them looking so well. Obviously negotiations going to see if they can get those two kidnapped journalists released.

Got to take a short break. We're back in just a moment.

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O'BRIEN: This video just into CNN. The two kidnapped journalists, kidnapped in Gaza, Steve Centanni and the cameraman Olaf Wiig, abducted by gunmen on August 14th.

Let's listen to what they're saying as they talk to their abductors and to their camera.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE CENTANNI, KIDNAPPED JOURNALIST: .. in fairly good health. We get lots of clean water, food every day, access to the bathroom, shower, clean clothes and our captors are treating us well. So just want to let you know I'm here and alive, and give my love to my family and friends and ask you to do anything you can to try to help us get out of here.

OLAF WIIG, KIDNAPPED CAMERAMAN: I guess I would add for myself -- and I know that my family will already be doing this -- but if you could apply any political pressure on the local government here in Gaza and the West Bank, that would be much appreciated by both Steve and myself. I know, Anita, you will already be doing that.

To my family, I love you all. Please don't worry. I'll do all of the worrying for us. And (INAUDIBLE)...

CENTANNI: We love you all and we want to go home. Hope to see you soon. Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE) O'BRIEN: We love you all, we want to go home. That was Steve Centanni on the right there, correspondent and cameraman Olaf Wiig. They were abducted by gunmen on August 14th. In the past couple of years, Palestinian militants in Gaza have nabbed 26 foreigners, but usually hostages are released within just hours. What you heard both men say -- they're asking if you can anything that you can do, politically speaking, to help, and any political pressure you can apply locally would be very much appreciated.

The two main groups, and I guess many of the main groups in Gaza, had denied any kind of involvement in these abductions. And then an unknown group called the Holy Jihad Brigades claimed responsibility in this kidnapping.

Let's get right to Paula Hancocks for an update here.

Paula, I guess the good news is they sound good. They look very well. That's great news after so many days.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT; That's right. Yes, the fact that there is this first point of contact will be very important for the negotiators and also for the families of both the men. Now, it had been coming up to 10 days since they had been taken on August 14th, the longest that any journalist had been held for while kidnapped in Gaza.

So we understand it is from a group called the Holy Jihad Brigades. As you say, it is an unknown group. It's not a group we've come up against before. And they are claiming responsibility for this kidnapping, saying that they will be released if and when all Muslim prisoners from American prisons are released. They want that to be happening between -- within 72 hours. They give no indication of what will happen if that does not happen within 72 hours.

But we do have a claim of responsibility, we do have demands, and this is what the negotiators will have been waiting for. And certainly, that proof of life, the proof that the two men are OK, is what the two families will have been waiting for.

Now, we heard from the cameraman, 36-year-old Olaf Wiig from New Zealand, asking his wife Anita McNaught to do anything she could do to exert political pressure on the governments in Gaza on the West Bank. Now, certainly, we have seen over the past week, she has been doing that.

We are seeing the New Zealand diplomat, as well, meeting the Palestinian Israel Prime Minister Ismail Haniya himself, saying he gave a personal commitment to do everything that he could to try and release these two.

And we've also seen on Al-Jazeera, the Arab network, over the weekend, a plea from the brother of Steve Centanni for his release, as well, and for any news on him. So we have been seeing appeals over the past week.

Both said that they're well. Both said that they're being well- fed, that they have clean water, they have food every day, access to the bathroom, to a shower. And so it was a very bland background, just a black background, but they did appear to be well. And as they said, they were in good spirits.

O'BRIEN: Paula Hancocks for us this morning. Thanks, Paula.

Let's take a closer look at these demands now. They say that the two will be released -- what they want is Muslim prisoners in U.S. jails released in 72 hours before they release the two men.

Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon for more on this angle.

Barbara, good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad.

Here at the Pentagon, this tape now just being viewed. No official reaction. One can begin assuming that what these demands perhaps involve is the 450 or so prisoners being held by the Bush administration at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Most of them certainly being of the Islamic faith, but no reaction, of course.

And of course, it will be very cautious one can assume. I suspect that the Bush administration is not going to release those detainees or prisoners in response to any kidnappers' demands.

But you know, what we do have to say that everyone here is Steve Centanni is very well known in the Pentagon. Olaf is someone who had not covered this building, but Steve covers this building on a regular basis.

We here in the Pentagon press corps, we all know Steve very well. He is very highly respected. In the last several days while this incident has been going on, Pentagon officials at very highest levels behind the scene have expressed their concern about the fate of both of these men. Steve can only be described, because we know him here, as an extremely competent journalist, a very fair-minded, even-handed competent journalist, and a very gentle soul, a man that we always see smiling in the corridors here, someone very friendly, very outgoing. It's good see him on this tape, but nonetheless, people are, of course, extremely concerned that both these mean be returned to their families.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it is great news to finally after nearly 10 days, Barbara, see them looking well and sounding well and talking about how they're being fed and essentially being taken care of, to a large degree, but also that you could tell when you mentioned the gentleness, when they say, you know, anything you could do to help would be greatly appreciated, it's sort of the understatement of the year certainly as we wait for more information and hopefully can bring a conclusion.

Very rare, Barbara, to have a kidnapping last so long. Usually we know in Gaza, it's certainly just a couple of hours for the two dozen foreigners who have been kidnapped there. STARR: You know, that's certainly -- Paula knows a lot more about this than me. That certainly has been the experience in Gaza, and I think that is why some of the people in these Pentagon hallways who know Steve, don't know Olaf, but worry about him just as much, one of the reasons there's been so much personal concern behind the scenes here in the Pentagon hallways for the last many days, we've all in the news media watched kidnappings, killings, injuries happen to so many journalists from around the world in war zones in the last couple of years, but it's always tough when you see someone you know.

O'BRIEN: It's really, really tough. All right, Barbara Starr for us this morning from the Pentagon.

Barbara, thanks.

We've got to take a short break. We're back in just a moment.

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O'BRIEN: Got to take a short break. We're back in just a moment.

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O'BRIEN: That's it. We're out of time. Let's get right to Daryn Kagan. She's at the CNN Center, going to be with you for the next couple hours on "CNN LIVE TODAY," and also a big thank you to Rick who's been helping us out. You head back to Atlanta now.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Always a pleasure. I've got to home and take care of my kids.

O'BRIEN: Oh, I hear you.

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