Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
"I Did Not Say She was Innocent"'; DSK Won't Accept a Plea Bargain; Moving Closer to Deb Ceiling Deal?; The Final Shuttle Launch; Interview with Lead Prosecutor in Casey Anthony Case; Interview with Chris Van Hollen; Interview with Paul Ryan
Aired July 07, 2011 - 07:58 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Sentencing day.
I'm Christine Romans.
In one hour from now, convicted liar Casey Anthony will be in court to find out whether she'll stay behind bars. We'll ask the lead prosecutor why the jury couldn't come back with murder.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Dominique Strauss-Kahn defiant, saying he will not accept any plea bargain.
I'm Kiran Chetry.
His lawyers saying the former International Monetary Fund chief will not plead guilty to anything. We have new developments next.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: And debating a debt deal.
I'm Ali Velshi.
President Obama and Republicans are said to be moving closer to a deal that could include changes to Social Security and Medicare. What it could mean for you on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ROMANS: Morning, everyone. It's Thursday, July 7th and so much to talk about. It's a big, important day on Capitol Hill, with the president and negotiators for a deal on the debt -- the debt ceiling and also the Casey Anthony sentencing is just an hour from now.
CHETRY: That's right. In one hour we're going to be live in that courtroom again. And Casey Anthony will be back there, as well, to hear whether or not she will go free or if she'll remain behind bars.
VELSHI: Meantime, we're hearing for the first time from one of the jurors in the actual jury room in the deliberations who says the not- guilty verdict made them sick to their stomachs but prosecutors left them no choice.
CNN's David Mattingly live for us in Orlando.
What is the story from the jurors, David?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ali, this jury was able to reach a not guilty verdict in a matter of hours, not days. But now we're finding out just how hard it was for them to make that decision.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Two days after the surprising verdict, we are now getting a better look at what transpired in the courtroom with various players speaking out, including juror number three, who spoke with ABC News.
JENNIFER FORD, JUROR: I mean, there were quite a few people when we got back after the verdict was read, we were in tears.
MATTINGLY: Jennifer Ford said it was a horrible decision to have to make, that not guilty doesn't mean innocent. But ultimately, she says, it was the prosecution's lack of evidence that led to the jury acquitting Casey Anthony.
FORD: How did she die? If you're going to charge one with murder, don't you have to know how they killed someone or why they might have killed someone or have something where, when, why, how? Those are important questions. They were not answered.
MATTINGLY: Lead prosecutor Jeff Ashton told Beth Karas of "In Session" on CNN sister network truTV his team felt they did everything they could in presenting the case.
JEFF ASHTON, LEAD PROSECUTOR: The idea that somebody would put duct tape on a child after they were dead, to me, just makes so little sense that it left only the possibility of the tape being used to kill Caylee. I didn't think there was any other reasonable explanation.
MATTINGLY: Jose Baez, lead defense attorney, told ABC News that the prosecution's mistake was charging Casey Anthony with first-degree murder.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY'S ATTORNEY: They have the power to charge anyone for any charge that they feel they can prove. So, if they're going to bring it, they better be able to prove it.
MATTINGLY: Baez also said Casey is misunderstood, and that he's afraid for her safety once she is free.
BAEZ: I think Casey can -- could have been anything she wanted in this world. And I think there are still plenty of things that Casey can do in life. And I think that Casey can be a productive member of society.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: Even if Casey Anthony does go free today, she will not be able to get away from having problems with the state of Florida. The state is going to be asking her to come up with money to pay for the investigation in this case to compensate the Orange County sheriff's department for the costs that they had to put out in investigating this case. They don't know how much that is right now, Ali, but they're going to have to hold a hearing later to determine just what the bill is going to be.
VELSHI: And, of course, that's some kind -- there's some speculation here that if she is able to profit from her story, they are going to try and pin her down for having lied to investigators, making them chase after this woman. It will be interesting to see.
ROMANS: Hold her responsible for those costs that she lied that led to --
VELSHI: She sent police looking for this other woman. It's unorthodox. But we'll have to see where that goes. David, we'll stay with you through the course of the day as this story continues to unfold. Thanks, David.
ROMANS: CNN will carry the sentencing live at 9:00 a.m. Eastern. And, you know, there are some states that if you are convicted of something, you have to pay the cost of -- I mean, if you're jailed for something, if you're jailed for a conviction, you pay the state back for the cost of your jailing.
VELSHI: How can you bill her if she wasn't convicted? She was convicted of lying to --
CHETRY: Of the misdemeanor. So, how they would actually parse that out monetarily is another big question as well.
But we want to know what you think. What should happen to Casey Anthony now? E-mail us. Give us a tweet. You can reach us on Facebook, on our blog as well and we will read some of your comments a little bit later in the show.
VELSHI: All right. This legal wrangling is something that we will continue to follow with Casey Anthony.
We want to move on to the story of Dominique Strauss-Kahn as well. This is a new development in this case.
Susan Candiotti who has been following is very closely joins us now.
We are hearing new information from Dominique Strauss-Kahn's attorneys.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, not only that, but also from the lawyer that represents his lead accuser. He wants the district attorney to get off the case and appoint a special prosecutor.
The maid's attorney wants this to happen but the district attorney says it's not. The Manhattan D.A. is leading the investigation and he says that's not going to change. In a letter to the D.A., the maid's lawyer accuses the D.A. of being unfair, not being impartial and charges him with leaking damaging and false information about his client to the media.
The D.A.'s office even issued a statement defending its investigation, adding, quote, "any suggestion that this office should be recused is wholly without merit."
Meantime, the maid's attorney is pressing ahead with a lawsuit, accusing "The New York Post" with libel for quoting unnamed sources who called the maid a prostitute. "The Post" says it stands by its story, but the maid's lawyer calls this all a malicious lie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH THOMPSON, ALLEGED VICTIM'S ATTORNEY: It is not just about her. But it's about any woman who is raped or sexually assaulted and they come forward. They should not be called a prostitute. And so, the victim in this case is standing up for her rights and standing up for her dignity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: Now, yesterday, the D.A. and defense attorneys huddled over what may happen with the case. Many experts say it's falling apart, thanks to serious credibility issues with the maid. She's admitted lies about her past, for example.
DSK attorneys called the meeting constructive. They also tell CNN that Strauss-Kahn will not accept any kind of plea bargain, if offered, and that he will not plead guilty to anything.
So, it's not over yet.
CHETRY: So, one of the things also is the jailhouse phone call. That was apparently what began to unravel the investigators' case, when it appeared that this woman is saying I'm fine, the accuser was saying maybe there is money to be made allegedly.
CANDIOTTI: That's right. That's a key element to what the problems have been here. However, the attorneys are saying that they have problems with the translation that was not done in English. The jailhouse call was in a dialect from her native Guinea. And they said we want to be able to listen to that. So far, the district attorney has not allowed them to hear it.
They said they are not ready with the full transcript yet, translation. The defense lawyers for -- rather, the attorney representing the maid says it's not fair. We should get a crack at hearing exactly what this says before the D.A. makes any final determination about what to do.
All we know at this point is that, so far, that the next hearing is scheduled for July 18th, but who knows whether the prosecutors have agreed to meet again with the DSK lawyers because --
(CROSSTALK)
CHETRY: And they could also decide to drop the case in the meantime, right?
CANDIOTTI: In the meantime, they certainly could in the meantime. VELSHI: I think July 13th I think is an important date because that's when you have to file your papers if you're running for president in France. And there were was speculation when this started to break it would fall apart so quickly he might be able to do that.
CANDIOTTI: But a lot of people are saying it's too late, regardless, it's just not going to happen.
VELSHI: Right. All right. Susan, thank you so much.
CANDIOTTI: You bet.
CHETRY: Meantime, a federal appeals court has ordered the U.S. government to immediately stop enforcing its "don't ask, don't tell" policy. And the Pentagon is in the process of appealing the law that bans gays from serving openly in the military. And military officials suggest that changes needed to eliminate the policy could be finished in weeks.
VELSHI: On CNN security watch, terrorists targeting commercial airliners by having explosives surgically implanted in their own bodies. U.S. security officials tell CNN they have fresh intelligence suggesting terrorists are considering such a plan to use humans as bombs. While there's no specific threat, we're told a key suspect in these efforts is Ibrahim Asiri, a bomb maker, a mastermind really in bombing for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, which is the Yemeni group.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN PISTOLE, TSA ADMINISTRATOR: We have seen this in the latest iteration or the evolution of what terrorist groups are trying to do to circumvent our security layers and to perhaps defeat our societal norms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: A Syrian believed to have planned the attempted underwear bombing of a Northwest Airlines jet that landed in Detroit on Christmas Day 2009.
ROMANS: A terrifying story in Yellowstone. A hiker in Yellowstone National Park mauled and killed by a grizzly bear. The park says the hiker and his wife surprised a female bear who perceived they're a threat to her cubs and attacked. Another nearby group of hikers heard the wife screaming for help and called 911.
The woman reportedly told park officials she survived despite chased by the bear and lifted into the air by her backpack. Grizzly attacks, they are very rare inside the park. It was the first deadly bear attack on these park grounds since 1986.
CHETRY: Right out of the gate, we have injuries at the running of the bulls. The annual festival started a few hours ago in Pamplona, Spain. And the Red Cross says one runner was already hospitalized and several others took hard falls and were trampled. One programming note, by the way. Coming up in just about 20 minutes, we're going to be talking to Jeff Ashton. He was the lead prosecutor in the Casey Anthony trial, what went wrong. The juror who said, "I'm not saying she was innocent," yet still, you know, made that verdict, that not guilty verdict. We're going to hear from him.
VELSHI: Love to hear what he's got to say and what his feelings are right now.
Medicare and Social Security cuts apparently reportedly on the table. But is it going to fix our current debt problem? We're going to go to Capitol Hill to have a live talk with Democrat and a Republican, both sides of this issue, trying to get some answers from them.
ROMANS: Also ahead, great video you must see from the Swedish open. The world's number one woman tennis player serving from match point when a cell phone starts to ring and you're going to love what happens next.
CHETRY: Also, buckle up, the world's first flying car is now ready and approved for the road, or the air. So, when will it hit a car near you? We don't mean it like that.
VELSHI: Car lot, let's call it car lot.
CHETRY: Yes, let's say that. Let's be on the safe side. Come on.
Ten minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: A little Britney to motivate everybody in Washington to get up and get some work done today. It's 75 degrees, which is largely perfect. A little later, it's going to be get a little muggier. It's going to be 95 and thunderstorms.
But here's the good news -- the White House is air-conditioned!
CHETRY: You know, it's funny. You said it was motivation, was Britney Spears, is the title with the something sending a message. Is it going to be circus today or are they going to get something done?
VELSHI: They're going to get something this morning. It could be a potential turn in the battle of raising the debt ceiling.
CNN is learning now that President Obama will agree to $3 trillion or $4 trillion in cuts over the next decade -- a move requiring some cuts to Medicare and Social Security. This news coming hours before leaders from both parties go to the White House for what really is a high stakes meeting with the president.
Joining me to talk about this now is Democratic Congressman Chris Van Hollen. He is the ranking member of the House Budget Committee. He is a Democrat.
Congressman Van Hollen, thank you for joining us. REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: Good to be with you.
VELSHI: Do you know anything about the reports that have been coming out that the president is prepared to talk about Medicare and Social Security with the Republicans in exchange for their support to raise the debt ceiling?
VAN HOLLEN: Ali, I do not know the details on this. I saw the reports and will hear a lot more from the president around 11:00 when he meets with bipartisan group at the White House. I do know that the president has been looking for a comprehensive deal that will get about $4 trillion in deficit reductions. That was along the lines of the proposal from the bipartisan Simpson-Bowles commission.
But respect to the history that appeared this morning on Social Security, I do not know what exactly the president is referring to. And I should be clear that congressional Democrats are not going to support something that seeks to balance the budget on the backs of Social Security beneficiaries would be --
(CROSSTALK)
VAN HOLLEN: I'm pretty confident that that's not what the president is referring to
VELSHI: OK. So, let me just ask you just so we can set the stage here. What kind of things you and Congressional Democrats with respect to Social Security might support if we support an increase in the age when you get Social Security for people who are younger at this point so it phases in over some time. Is that the kind of thing we could be talking about?
VAN HOLLEN: I think that would meet with a lot of resistance for this reason. It's easy for people who make a living like you and I do talking to retire a little bit later. It's a lot harder for someone who's been doing back-breaking work. What we could do and this is something that is a part of the design of the existing system which says you don't take away the option to retire early, but if you do retire early, you do get a lower benefit over a period of time.
That's part of the design in the current system. You could build on that. There are other options that we've discussed. For example, lifting the cap on the payroll tax. That would bring in some more revenue. So, there are ways to strength Social Security. Obviously, an important issue and not to do that as a way to balance the rest of the budget.
VELSHI: Let me ask you this then because a part of the reports that are coming out is that the president could agree to or push for $3 to $4 trillion in cuts over the next ten years. Where do Congressional Democrats stand on that?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, the president's proposal that he laid out just a short time ago at George Washington University called for about a $4 trillion in cuts over 12 years. And while I think you'd find people disagreeing with some of the details, the overall architecture of that proposal is something that certainly I could support because it was a balanced approach. It said we got to close a lot of these corporate tax loopholes.
We got to ask the folks at the very top to go back to paying what they did under the, you know, -- during the Clinton administration, but it also called for some significant cuts which we're going to have to do on domestic discretionary spending. But the president was clear that while we made cuts on the domestic side of the ledger, we also got to look at Pentagon spending and that's something the bipartisan commission also recommends.
VELSHI: Let me ask you this, Congressman Van Hollen, you're a leader in the Democratic Party. So, at some point, we know that Republicans have dug in about nothing that looks, smells, or walks like a tax increase or an elimination of a credit. You do have to compromise, and you will probably tell me that you and Congressional Democrats have, but the bottom line is what can you do to bring hard line fiscal conservatives over who will not get off of that mantra?
VAN HOLLEN: Well, that's exactly the question that I think all of us need to ask, and I, frankly, do not have a good answer for you, because what you've got right now is a dynamic in the Republican Party, especially with the tea party movement that says that we're not going to support closing corporate tax loopholes even for the purpose of deficit reduction.
And, until the Republican party is more worried about the deficit than they are about Grover Norquist and sort of that whole part of their coalition, then, we're going to have real problem. Now, maybe, the ice is beginning to break a little bit there. I haven't -- you know, there were some signs yesterday, although, you have to see it to believe it. I need to see an actual proposal.
VELSHI: Representative Chris Van Hollen, Democrat from Maryland and the ranking member of the House Budget Committee, thanks very much for joining us. I hope -- as you said, I hope the ice starts to break.
VAN HOLLEN: Good to be with you.
ROMANS: All right. Really interesting, Ali, that he says he doesn't think it would really fly raising the retirement age, because, you know, some people that's just not going to be an option, especially if you've got an economy that's not growing very robustly.
VELSHI: We don't have a big, warm hug going on in Washington right now.
ROMANS: No, we don't. And if you talk about other things like means testing, that might not be very -- I mean, people who make more money wouldn't get as much from Social Security. That might not fly with people who've been paying into the system. So, no matter what how you tweak or tamper with or reform Social Security and Medicare, there are people who are going to be screaming.
VELSHI: Yes. ROMANS: All right. Coming up in about 20 minutes, we're going to get the Republican side to the battle over raising the debt ceiling when we talk to Congressman Paul Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, and really, an architect of the way forward here for many Republicans on how they want to get our finances in order in this country.
CHETRY: Yes. Coming up in about 20 minutes, we're also going to be speaking to the lead prosecutor in the Casey Anthony case, Jeff Ashton. We're going to get his take. We're going to get his reaction to the jurors saying I didn't say she was innocent, but I don't think they proved their case.
ROMANS: And I wonder what he would have done differently. You know, it's always 20/20 hindsight, but I really like to know what he would have done differently in this case.
CHETRY: Absolutely.
Also, well, history may have to wait for a few thunderstorms to pass at the Kennedy Space Center tomorrow morning. The final shuttle mission is set to take off 11:26 a.m. eastern time, Friday. The NASA officials now say there's a 70 percent chance that bad weather will force the launch to be postponed. Alternate launch windows are in place, though, for Saturday and Sunday if necessary.
And 30 years after the space shuttle program began, "Atlantis'" flight to the international space station will be NASA's 135th -- there goes the rocket -- and final mission. A little different than that, but Ali likes it.
Special live coverage begins tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. Ali is going to be down there.
ROMANS: I don't know how it doesn't burn a hole.
VELSHI: In my suit?
(CROSSTALK)
CHETRY: Magic of television.
ROMANS: Wow.
VELSHI: All right. I want this thing to take off, but the longer it doesn't take off for, the more times we have a chance to run that thing.
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: All right. Reynolds Wolf is in the Extreme Weather Center. Well, Reynolds, please take the Ali's drunk with power (ph) --
VELSHI: I love it.
ROMANS: Of the launching guy. Hey, there. REYNOLDS WOLF, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I love the launch. I really do. It's a beautiful thing to see. Hopefully, the weather is going to cooperate for tomorrow. Again, right now, it doesn't look too favorable. Hopefully, things will change. It is really going to be one of those hit or miss things. We're talking about Florida, the sunshine state, the sea breeze thunderstorms. It could happen. We could see some delays there.
For your own launch this morning, your launch again of Atlanta, Raleigh, Miami trying to make a trip out, well, you might have some delays due to thunderstorms. Same deal in Memphis, also in St. Louis. Salt Lake City possibly a thunder boomer, and the wind should also keep it grounded for up to an hour. And in San Francisco, the low clouds and some of the fog may stick around.
On the other side of the bay, Oakland that should not be a problem all for you. All look for a chance of severe thunderstorms, possibly some large hail developing across parts of the nation's mid-section. We're talking about potential really small like dime-sized hail. Certainly, nothing much bigger than that. Speaking of something big. We're going to see something just pretty unusual.
Let's skip weather and go right into sport just very quickly. I want to show you the interesting video. Not something you just want to see but also something you want to hear. As we go right to -- we're talking about the Swedish open that's happened just yesterday. In the Swedish Open, talking about Alize Cornet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking around the crowd. And in fact, it's the phone of Alize Cornet. Wow. Never seen that before.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF: Can you believe that? Hard to believe, Alize Cornet in the Swedish Open, waiting for her opponent to serve, her cell phone goes off the middle of the match. She would go on, of course, to lose the match all together, but again, timing not so good.
CHETRY: No, but it did break up the tension, right?
VELSHI: Look at her smile.
ROMANS: I told you. Mom, I'm working.
WOLF: A welcome distraction. A welcome distraction. No idea who the phone call was, but that's the reason why you have the vibrate option on your cell phone.
VELSHI: Put up your hand. Put up your hand. Anybody here who has had a phone ring while they're live on TV? Kiran, you absolutely.
CHETRY: No, but accidentally, we were holding up my phone and my number flashed on the screen.
VELSHI: You had to change your number after that, I remember that.
CHETRY: I did.
WOLF: Happens to us all, guys.
VELSHI: Reynolds, good to see you, my friend.
WOLF: Take care, ma'am.
CHETRY: Coming up at 8:30 Eastern Time, Jeff Ashton is going to be joining us live again, the lead prosecutor in the Casey Anthony trial. We're going to get his take on what he thought about what the jurors said. I don't believe she's innocent, but the case wasn't proven. And also, some interesting comments from Jose Baez, Casey Anthony's attorney about what her life will be like now. We're going to hear from the prosecutor coming up.
VELSHI: And who are the highest paid actresses in Hollywood? I say actresses because the highest paid is a tie.
ROMANS: That's right.
VELSHI: We'll show it to you. We'll show you who's raking it in.
ROMANS: Plus, the next new iPhone. We're getting a clearer picture of what to expect when Apple unveils its latest, greatest cell phone this fall, we're told. Twenty-three minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Twenty-seven minutes after the hour. "Minding Your Business" this morning.
Morgan Stanley Smith Barney reportedly lost two CDs with personal information for 34,000 investor clients. At risk? Social Security number, personal income as well as account and tax I.D. numbers. CNN calls to Morgan Stanley have not yet been returned.
Checking on the markets right now. Stock futures for the Dow, NASDAQ, S&P 500, they are all up so far. Investors eyeing fresh economic news for the markets, including jobless claims that were coming out in just a few minutes. We'll find out how many people lined up for jobless benefits last week.
How many 10-dollar bills did the U.S. treasury print last year? How many? Think about it. None. For the first time in history, the treasury didn't print any tens. Why? Because more people are using plastic instead of cash. The treasury also printed fewer one dollar bills and fewer five dollar bills last year.
Buckle up, the first flying car is one step closer to driving than gliding on the market. It's called the Terrafugia Transition, and it's now street legal. The company hopes to have it on the market next year. The cost, oh, you know, it's easy. Around $250,000.
The next iPhone expected to be less bulky, lighter, and equipped with a better camera. That's what sources are telling the "Wall Street Journal" which reports that the iPhone 5 will launch by late September.
Angelina Jolie and Sarah Jessica Parker, they share the top spot on Forbes annual list of the highest paid actresses in Hollywood. Both earn $30 million. $30 million from the past year. Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon were second. They each made $28 million. Then, Julia Roberts and Kristen Stewart, they each made $20 million. Wow!
Up next, we're talking to Jeff Ashton, an assistant state attorney who delayed his retirement to work on the Casey Anthony case. His thoughts on the standing verdict. Plus, if he (ph) thinks Casey will go free from jail today for the first time in three years. AMERICAN MORNING back right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: It's 31 minutes past of the hour now.
Casey Anthony will be back in court in just a half an hour to decide or to find out whether or not the judge will decide whether or not she gets to leave or has to stay behind bars.
One juror in the meantime is talking about why they couldn't find her guilty of murdering her daughter. That juror told ABC News that all of the jurors in that room were stick to their stomachs about the not guilty verdict, but they felt they had no choice. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER FORD, JUROR, CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: There wasn't enough evidence, there wasn't anything strong enough to say exactly -- I don't think anyone in America could tell us exactly how she died. If you put even just 12 jurors in one room with a piece of paper, write down how Caylee died -- nobody knows. We would all be guessing. We have no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: Joining us is the lead prosecutor in the case, the Casey Anthony trial, Jeff Ashton, also Sunny Hostin a former federal prosecutor herself is here. Thanks so much for joining us this morning, Jeff. To hear from the Jennifer Ford, the juror who came forward, she clearly indicated she didn't feel that you guys proved your case. How hard is that to hear?
JEFF ASHTON, LEAD PROSECUTOR, CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Well, it's kind of what I figured from the verdict. You know, the evidence was what it was. And I said from the very beginning of this case that if the jury could look at the photograph, and I know that the public hasn't seen the photograph in an un-blurred fashion, but --
CHETRY: The remains? ASHTON: The remains and the duct tape. And if the jury looked at that photograph and couldn't see what I saw, couldn't determine from that photograph how she died, then so be it. That's the jury system.
CHETRY: The jury also went on to say they were stick to their stomach after voting to acquit, and they also went on to say I did not say she was innocent. I just said there wasn't enough evidence. If you can't prove what the crime was you can't prove what the punishment would be.
And some legal analysts, like our own Jeffrey Toobin said that perhaps it was the death penalty case, it was the murder one, that there was perhaps some overreaching, that maybe you guys were too in love with the case or too close to the case. Should you have gone for something other than murder one?
ASHTON: If what we thought she did is, in fact, what the jury believed she did, it was an appropriate case for the jury to make that decision. They were given lesser charges, so I would hope -- I mean, they are instructed that sentencing is not a part of what they are supposed to consider in the guilt phase. So if they did, then they shouldn't have.
CHETRY: So they misread the instructions by saying how could we determine what the punishment should be, because they shouldn't have been doing that at that point?
ASHTON: Right. They shouldn't have been even considering punishment during the guilt phase.
But also they were given lesser offenses. You know, I don't think that -- I hope that is not what they based it on, because if it was, then they did the wrong thing. I mean, I can respect if they disagreed with our facts, that's fine. But if they did it based upon the penalty, then they didn't follow the law.
CHETRY: That's interesting. Sunny has followed the case. She's a former federal prosecutor and tried dozens of cases. And you watched every moment of this as well.
SUNNY HOSTIN, LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR, "IN SESSION": I did.
CHETRY: The other interesting thing was that other theory was that was sort of floating out there.
HOSTIN: That's right. There is sort of a prevailing theory on Facebook and everywhere, and that is that a lot of people, Jeff, think that Casey Anthony used chloroform as a babysitter and perhaps used too much, overdosed on -- overdosed Caylee on this chloroform, and then staged it to like the Zannie the nanny kidnapper, which is where the duct tape comes. Is that a theory that your office ever considered?
ASHTON: Well, we considered the fact that people might think that. And in the closing argument we specifically discussed with the jury sort of alternate theories that they might have. And that was one of them that we address and basically told them that that would have been first degree murder anyway under felony murder theory.
So we did think about that. That wasn't our theory, but we realized people might think that. So we basically told them even if you think that, it's still first-degree murder, and here is why.
HOSTIN: Another question - you know I'm a former prosecutor.
ASHTON: Right.
HOSTIN: And I thought you tried this case brilliantly.
ASHTON: Thank you very much.
HOSTIN: I really do. But I thought that you were perhaps going to have one of those O.J. case moments with the gloves not fitting when you wanted this jury to smell the cans of death, right, because you had carpet samples that you felt smelled like death. And I've smelled death, you've smelled death, but perhaps none of the jurors smelled death. What if they opened up those cans, Jeff, and they didn't smell anything?
ASHTON: We opened them first.
HOSTIN: OK. So that wasn't going to happen to you?
ASMAN: No. We were not going to risk that. A couple of weeks before the trial started, I had one of the CSI investigators who had experienced it originally, you know, open it up and smell it. And he said, yes, smells the same. And I, just to be safe, I smelled it myself.
CHETRY: OK, do you think if the judge would have allowed that, because he did not, that could have turned the case?
ASHTON: No. It doesn't appear from what I've heard that that was a key factor. None of the jurors have really addressed the issue of the car and whether they thought a body was in the car. I would be interested to see what they thought about that. I assume they could have thought there was a body in the car but still said, you know, there were other possibilities.
CHETRY: I want to ask you about a couple of other things, because this basically was a real life drama that played out. So your every move was watched, Casey's every move was watched, and the defense attorneys, you know, every move was watched.
One of the things that was pointed out is when Baez said, and that man laughing over there, and pointed to you. And you were -- you did appear to be either chuckling or laughing. Perhaps - well, actually let me ask you. Why were you laughing when he was doing his closing argument?
ASHTON: You know, it was the end of a long trial and we were all tired. I was laughing because I thought -- I was amused by what he was doing. I shouldn't have been. But it was just that in the moment of his performance I just found it amusing. But I shouldn't have shown that.
CHETRY: Do you think you lost the jury perhaps in that moment?
ASHTON: No. From everything I've heard it appears that the jury decided what they decided simply based on the facts as they saw them. And I can't imagine that anything that either one of us did affected that much.
HOSTIN: Well, what about the relationship between you and Jose Baez? I've been in the courtroom, and you're adversaries, right? Did you like each other? Do you like him?
ASHTON: I don't think we will be vacationing together any time in the near future.
(LAUGHTER)
You know, you get in the heat of things. And there were certain things that went on in the three-year span of the case that I didn't appreciate, you know? We were attacked personally a lot.
HOSTIN: Right.
ASHTON: And, you know, that's -- there are things you leave in the courtroom and there are things you don't. How I'll feel about that a week from now, we'll -- ask me a week from now. But, you know, there was a lot of things that went on that shouldn't have gone on. I'll just leave it at that.
CHETRY: And 20 minutes from now Casey Anthony is going to be standing before this judge again. She could get out. Do you believe she is a danger to society?
ASHTON: Only if she has any more children, honestly.
CHETRY: She indicated apparently in some letters that she would like to have children perhaps. She had a dream she had children and that she considered adoption. What do you think about that?
ASHTON: I would -- I would hope that she doesn't -- doesn't try to parent again.
CHETRY: You still believe in your heart of hearts that Casey Anthony killed Caylee Anthony?
ASHTON: That's the great thing. As you know by being a prosecutor, you don't -- you don't prosecute cases that you don't believe in. And so we started this case because we believed in what we thought she did. Though we respect the jury's verdict, it was their decision to make, it doesn't change how we feel about the facts and what they meant.
CHETRY: It was great for you to join us and to you to us, Jeff Ashton, prosecutor. I know you're retiring now.
ASHTON: Yes. CHETRY: So congratulations on that.
ASHTON: Thank you very much.
CHETRY: A well-deserved break after these past three plus years.
ASHTON: It's been a trip. Thank you very much.
CHETRY: Thanks for being here. And, Sunny, thank you also for your input.
Up next, debt negotiations -- can President Obama jumpstart a deal today? And is there any way that Republicans and Democrats are going to be able to hammer out a deal to agree on any of this? We spoke to a Democrat earlier. Up next we will talk to a key Republican, Paul Ryan, Congressman Paul Ryan, on how to get real spending cuts.
It's 40 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Washington, D.C. this morning. It was partly cloudy. Right now 78 degrees. Thunderstorms and 95. And the fireworks actually begin at 11:00. No, just kidding. But that's when we are going to start to be talking about the debt ceiling with the president and key members of negotiators on Capitol Hill.
Some brand new movement this morning in the battle over cutting the nation's debt and then raising the debt ceiling so the U.S. can borrow money and keep the lights on, as the treasury secretary says. CNN learning that President Obama wants $3 to $4 trillion in deficit cuts over the next decade. It's a move that would force Democrats to accept some major changes, major changes to Medicare and Social Security.
Earlier we spoke to Democratic Congressman Chris Van Hollen. We want to get a perspective now from the Republican side. And joining me is Republican Congressman Paul Ryan. He's the chairman of the House Budget Committee.
Congressman, you have been sort of an architect even before it was cool among the Tea Party movement to be talking about getting our financial house in order, you have been doing this for years. So the moment is here. The moment is definitely here, critical day at the White House to get this deal done. And this morning everyone wants to know is the White House going to be willing to push for some sort of changes to Medicare and Social Security? What would be palatable to you? What do they need to tell you to get Republicans on board for a deal?
REP. PAUL RYAN, (R) WISCONSIN: Well, I'm not going to be at that meeting. That is where our leaders go, number one. Number two, with all due respect, Christine, I don't think it's a good idea to negotiate through the media about we will or will not exceed or accept. The key is we get this debt and deficit under control. I mean that is the whole point here, right? I mean it's been 800 days starting tomorrow since the Senate even bothered to pass a budget. So Congress hasn't been budgeting at all. The only opportunity to get this under control is this debt limit negotiation.
I wouldn't put too much into just today's meeting. What I would describe what's happening today is we are not entering the mature phase of this. We are getting the leaders, the speaker, the president sitting down and talking about how to do these things.
And to your point, yes, our entitlement programs -- you mentioned Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid. These are the biggest drivers of our debt in the future. If you want to be honest about dealing with our debt long term and in the medium term, you have to deal with our entitlements. And spending is the root cause of our problem. So we're basically saying for every dollar of increase in debt limits let's cut more than a dollar of spending.
ROMANS: You know, I get you, you don't want to negotiate to the media. But I'm telling you Americans are maddened by the process. They are hearing all of this dire talk.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: So am I.
ROMANS: I know -- aren't we all? Hear all of this dire talk about what's going to happen if we don't raise the debt ceiling and they are saying, wait a minute, Congress already wrote these checks.
RYAN: Yes.
ROMANS: Congress already did all this spending and now you're saying we're not going to pay those bills. So that's something the people fundamentally get irritated with. And because all of this is -- look, $4 trillion, $2 trillion, $4 trillion over ten years, $6 trillion as you proposed over ten years.
This is going to be major changes to how Americans live their lives. So that's why people want to know what's going to be accepted for Social Security.
RYAN: Right.
ROMANS: What is Medicare is going to look like? What's -- what's the military are going to like? What are tax rates going to look like?
RYAN: Well, I can't answer the questions because I don't know the answer to the question.
ROMANS: Right.
RYAN: But I can tell you what we propose. My point is if you change policies now and get government to reorient its policy; you don't have to provide severe disruptions to people and their lives. Our Medicare proposal, it doesn't change Medicare benefits for anybody above the age of 55.
But the problem is if you -- if you keep kicking this can down the road, then you will end up cutting current seniors. So that's what we have been trying to avoid. Social Security, the same goes for that. I have yet to see a plan introduced in Congress that affects the benefits for current seniors. I don't know what's on the table at this meeting today.
ROMANS: Yes.
RYAN: But -- but -- but I got to tell you if you get ahead of this debt situation now we can do it on our own terms, we can keep the commitment to current seniors and change it for future younger people like ourselves so we have these programs when we retire. The sooner we deal with this thing the better off we are and the less severe disruptions that occur in people's current lives. And so that's the deal here.
And look, you're right, the reason we're at this point is because we hit our nation's credit limit.
ROMANS: Right.
RYAN: Because of past spending. We got to deal with future spending so it doesn't happen again and that's what we are trying to do.
ROMANS: Yes, you understand capital markets. I mean what -- what happens if Republicans are so emboldened by the power they apparently have and -- and the leverage they have in this situation that we don't resolve this debt ceiling thing right away? I mean could you see the future where we are paying more -- spending more money because we have defaulted on something?
RYAN: Because interest rates go up?
ROMANS: Yes.
RYAN: Look, default is not in our interest. Default is not our game plan. At the same time, if you simply raise the debt limit without showing any -- any discipline on spending, I would argue the credit markets will come at us that way as well.
I think the credit markets will get us if we default, I think the credit will get us if we don't cut spending.
ROMANS: Yes.
RYAN: So I think the obvious answer here is you know, get a good down payment on debt and deficits.
ROMANS: And there are some in the bond market who are saying the reason why the bond market hasn't gone crazy so far is because they know that there is this new serious era of fiscal discipline in Washington.
RYAN: Right. ROMANS: Just getting there again the politics of it.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: I'm just starting to hear some refreshing talk. I'm just starting to hear refreshing talk. Some of us have been in the wilderness here for a while and it's good to hear some actual realization about the dire fiscal problem we have today.
ROMANS: Well, let me ask you quickly about the "The Wall Street Journal" earlier this week, said that you know, maybe a loop -- we should cut loopholes but we should make a more simple corporate tax system. I mean is that a way to go? I mean, loopholes -- that is what we need to do?
RYAN: Absolutely. I agree with that. That's in our budget. We say let's get rid of all these loopholes and lower taxes for everybody. You've got companies like General Electric paying nothing and companies like UPS paying 34 percent.
ROMANS: Right.
RYAN: How fair is that? Let's get rid of the loopholes so we can lower the rates for everybody and grow the economy and create jobs. This is all about creating jobs and getting this debt under control.
ROMANS: Yes. Well, I'm telling you, there's a lot of politics involved too and as you know well, sometimes politics can get in the way of what -- what is necessarily the best economic interest but hopefully everyone has got -- everyone knows how serious -- inside that room today everyone knows how serious this whole situation in the short term and very long term.
Congressman Paul Ryan, thank you so much.
RYAN: Thank you Christine.
ROMANS: It's nice to see you.
Forty-eight minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Ok, let's go right to Florida. We've got live pictures now of the courtroom. Casey Anthony's parents just went in; they were sitting down. Casey Anthony herself has just gone into the courtroom.
Those are her parents, George and Cindy Anthony. there she is speaking to one of her lawyers. This is of course the sentencing which is going to start inside of the next, probably the next ten minutes.
CHETRY: Right. So she was only found guilty of four counts of lying to police in the investigation of Caylee's death, her daughter's death. And the sentencing, many say, could just be "time served", meaning she could walk out a free woman in less than 10 minutes. David Mattingly is live outside of the courthouse in Orlando. Casey looks a little nervous. We're seeing her there, she's chewing her fingernails and talking to one of her defense attorneys. What are we looking at here, David?
MATTINGLY: Well, we're looking at someone who actually in my eyes, appears a little bit more relaxed than we have seen her lately. She has her hair down. Before, she was wearing it up and looking a lot more conservative.
Here she does seem to be more relaxed and she always talks to her attorneys when she comes in. We've seen her a lot more animated than this in the past and even agitated it seems like. Today she seems very calm and just prepared for whatever might happen today.
But when we look at these charges, we hear that they are misdemeanors and that they carry a penalty of one year maximum in jail and $1,000 dollar fine maximum to go along with each one of these counts.
So it's potentially she could be looking at four more years in jail. Now, let's look at what she is actually charged with doing. Looking at the lies that she told to investigators. One of them, she just flat out lied that Caylee was missing. That was the first of many lies to come.
The next one was that while police were trying to find Caylee, she claimed that Caylee had called her. So extending this deception a little bit further.
She also lied to them about having a job at Universal Studios. She went so far, after she was questioned about this, and Universal Studio came back and said we have no record of her working here.
She actually walked on to the lot with investigators allegedly to show them where she worked and she walked on the property with them and finally got to a point where she said, all right, I don't work here.
It was that sort of elaborate type lying that we're looking at that produced these charges.
And finally, one was that Caylee was dropped off with a nanny, Zenaida Gonzalez. Well, investigators looked into that as well and found out that was completely fictitious. A nanny that was completely made up.
In fact, they found another woman with that same name who had nothing to do with this. That woman, consequently, is now planning to sue Casey Anthony for defamation.
So that's what's behind all of the lies, the four counts of lying that we are going to hear about today.
VELSHI: Well, there is this conversation that being had about the state and the firm that did a lot of this investigation, wanting to recover money from -- from Casey Anthony if she profits from a book or a movie. Tell us a bit about this. MATTINGLY: That's right. And who knows how much money that might be. There was a lot of time, a lot of manpower and a lot of resources went into this as they first of all, were investigating a missing persons case and then a long running murder case.
CHETRY: David, one other question that people are wondering, is what happened -- if -- I mean, I know you said it could be up to four years if it's one year for each count, although as we said, Jeff Toobin and Sunny and others say it would be very rare for this because it was a misdemeanor. But if she walks out of the courtroom today, where does she go?
MATTINGLY: That's another big question. She might have more problems out here on the outside than she does sitting in jail. There is a concern about her safety.
Already the officials at the jail here have put out a press release saying we're not going tell you when, where, or how she is going to get out just out of concern because of all the intense emotional scrutiny this case has been getting.
There has been absolutely no discussion about where she might go or what she might do after this happens. But this case has been intensely watched here in Orlando, even more so than it has around the country and the other parts of the world. There are tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of people that would recognize her on sight and have a very strong opinion about -- about her guilt or innocence in this case.
ROMANS: All right, David Mattingly, don't go anywhere.
Don't go anywhere anyone. We're going to be back in just a second. This Casey Anthony sentencing starts in about three minutes live on CNN. We're going to have it for you.
Its 56 minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: All right, Casey Anthony back in court with her parents. Sentencing is about to begin in a couple of minutes. We will stay with this live on CNN until you get the full story about what is happening in this case.
CHETRY: Right.
ROMANS: A relaxed Casey Anthony there, getting ready to find out her fate now.
CHETRY: She could walk. She could be out of there in less than half an hour or even before that.
Of course our coverage continues now on this situation. All eyes on that courtroom in Florida.
Kyra Phillips and "CNN NEWSROOM" start right now.
