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American Morning

Libyan Prime Minister: Gadhafi Killed in Crossfire; U.S. Dept. of Defense: Gadhafi Survived Airstike; Libya to Declare War Over Tomorrow; A Promise Kept; Five Mistakes That Cost You Money; Libyans Cheer Gadhafi's Death; Cain Speaks About 9-9-9 Plan; Occupy Wall Street; Gadhafi Killed; Population: 7 Billion

Aired October 21, 2011 - 06:00   ET


CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: The final moments of a desperate dictator. I'm Christine Romans. Moammar Gadhafi meeting his end in a battle for his hometown and we're learning more about NATOs role in taking him out.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Holding his golden gun. I'm Carol Costello. Millions of Libyans celebrating the death of a tyrant as the nation gets ready to officially announce a new beginning on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ROMANS: Good morning, everyone. It's Friday, October 21st. Ali's off today. Welcome to AMERICAN MORNING.

COSTELLO: Did you see it was Friday?

ROMANS: I sure did, Carol. It's been a long week, hasn't it? It's been a big week of news. It's been a very long week.

COSTELLO: I must say, I had a great time in Vegas.

ROMANS: I know. Vegas seems like a year ago, doesn't it? All of the Gadhafi news yesterday. You came back from the big Republican debate and then big international breaking news too.

COSTELLO: I know, but happy Friday to you.

Up first, let's talk about Libya. New details about the death of the former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi killed in his hometown, captured alive. But almost 24 hours after reports that he was mortally wounded, there is still a fog surrounding exactly how it happened.

ROMANS: That's right. And there are new videos popping up all over the web showing his final moments. We want to warn you here this morning. These videos obviously are graphic. This one showing a badly wounded extremely bloody confused Gadhafi being manhandled, but is clearly alive here.

The official Libyan government statement says he was killed in the crossfire. Later picture show his dead body with a bullet wound to his head at close range suggesting he was executed. COSTELLO: News of his death sparked wild celebrations in the streets of Libya, horns honking, guns blasting. President Obama telling the Libyan people, you have won your revolution.

ROMANS: So our coverage this morning begins with Chris Lawrence live from the Pentagon. Chris, what do we know about how Gadhafi died?

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The exact way in which he died is still under some debate because there are some conflicting stories out there, but we are getting a clear picture what led up to those final moments.

And it looks to be as chaotic as Gadhafi lived his entire life. Let's take you back. What was happening was, NATO had aerial surveillance, had eyes on a particular area of Sirte, where there was some conflict there.

In fact, Gadhafi's forces were now told, had been sort of boxed into a particular area. There was some fighting there. A convoy left out of that area, and a combination of French fighter jets and a U.S. predator drone hit that convoy.

Now when officials they're not sure where Gadhafi was exactly in relation to that convoy, but they do know that fighting broke out after that convoy was hit. Gadhafi and some of his men then took refuge, Libyan officials say, in a drainage pipe and that's where he was found.

At some point during that exchange, there was a long shoot-out between some of Gadhafi's loyalists and some of the rebels, and then Gadhafi was captured. A senior NATO official told me that Gadhafi was still alive after the convoy was struck.

And after, you know, they fled on foot, but he's not sure exactly what happened in the circumstances in which Gadhafi died.

COSTELLO: What's interesting here, you know, Saif, one of Gadhafi's sons, is supposedly out there and alive. You wonder how his end will come.

A lot of analysts here in the United States, I should say, want Saif to be captured and tried. But it's unclear that will happen in light of what happened to Moammar Gadhafi.

LAWRENCE: Exactly. Look at all the conflicting stories. I mean, I think there have been already two instances in which Saif was reported dead.

You know, earlier we saw huge celebrations when his death was supported and then he pops out on video alive just a few hours later. So it seems to be a very chaotic situation in Libya. We may have to wait to see how this plays out.

ROMANS: Chris, I know now there's a lot of talk about Libya's weapons. We know there are shoulder-fired missiles. There are an awful lot of handguns and automatic weapons. What happens to securing those weapons?

LAWRENCE: What's happening right now is the State Department sent a small team to Libya and they have been sort of embedded with the NTC securing some of the chemical weapons stock piled. Now you're right. There are thousands, by some accounts, of missing shoulder- fired missiles.

Now these are old weapons, against a conventional army probably not going to do all that much damage, but they're extremely small and concealable. Four feet long, only weigh about 30 pounds. There's a real danger they could try to use them to sort of go after civilian airplanes or a helicopter.

The Obama administration says that terrorists have already expressed interest in obtaining them. State Department is looking for about another $35 million from Congress to beef up that team over there to try to get a handle on where those are and to work with the NTC to secure them.

ROMANS: All right, Chris Lawrence, thanks so much.

LAWRENCE: You're welcome.

COSTELLO: The celebrations, of course, continue this morning in Libya. The new government says it will officially declare the war over tomorrow, and people who have known nothing, but Gadhafi they are entire lives are breathing a sigh of relief.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are very free and I feel that birthday is today. We're have a good time. I feel 6 years old. Really, Libya is free without him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The greatest moment in all my life.


ROMANS: President Obama says the death of Moammar Gadhafi should serve as a warning to other Middle East leaders who rule with an iron fist. Their time will, quote, "inevitably come to an end."

The president also taking a little credit calling Gadhafis demise, a validation of his administration's lead from behind strategy in Libya and he offered up this message to the citizens of Libya.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The dark shadow of tyranny has been lifted, and with this enormous promise, the Libyan people now have a great responsibility, to build and inclusive and tolerant and democratic Libya that stands as the ultimate rebuke to Gadhafi's dictatorship.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COSTELLO: Some Republicans are giving credit to the president for the death of the Libyan dictator. It's reluctant, a bit muted, but it is praise. Listen to Senator John McCain on CNN's "THE SITUATION ROOM" after Gadhafi's death had been confirmed.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST, CNN'S "THE SITUATION ROOM": The Obama administration from your perspective deserves a lot of credit for this as well, don't they?

SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think they deserve credit. The fact is if we declared a no-fly zone early on, we would have never had -- Gadhafi would have fallen at the beginning.

The second thing is, that if we had used our capabilities, the A-10 and AC-130 this would have been over a long time ago, but I think the administration deserves credit. But I especially appreciate the leading of the British and the French in carrying out this success.


COSTELLO: We'll ask Senator McCain hat he would have done differently, heard a little bit of it there, and what the U.S. role in Libya should be moving forward, when Senator McCain joins us live in the 8:00 Eastern hour of AMERICAN MORNING.

ROMANS: For Brian Flynn, the death of Moammar Gadhafi is a promise kept, Flynn's brother, John Patrick, was one of 270 people who were killed when Pam Am Flight 103 exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland nearly 23 years ago now.

Widely believed Gadhafi ordered that bombing. Flynn has been fighting ever since to bring the Libyan strongman to justice and made a silent promise to his brother that he'd keep fighting until Gadhafi was gone.


BRIAN FLYNN, BROTHER KILLED ON PAN AM FLIGHT 103: I was thrilled, and I didn't expect to have that reaction. I'd been dreaming about this more than 20 years, but it was always with the sense that you don't want to be the vengeful one. I want my brother's murder killed, but in a way you do.


ROMANS: Flynn went on to thank the Libyan people and the Obama administration for their courage and commitment to taking out Gadhafi.

COSTELLO: Just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING, coverage of Moammar Gadhafi's death continues. In a moment, we'll take you live to Tripoli to talk to a member of the Libya's ruling National Transitional Council. We'll ask him what's next for the now liberated North African nation. ROMANS: Plus, Libya's loaded with oil and money. Most of that money was frozen during the revolution. So what happens now to the billions in gold, oil, cold hard cash? What happens to it now?

COSTELLO: Plus, Gadhafi's death. The first time a dictator has been killed in the Arab spring. Now other leaders are being warned to watch out. It's eight minutes past the hour.


COSTELLO: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. It's 11 minutes past the hour. Our continuing coverage of the death of Moammar Gadhafi now. Many questions remain this morning about how the Libyan dictator was killed and what's in store for the country moving forward?

Mohammed Sayeh is a former member of Libya's National Transitional Council. He joins us live this morning from Tripoli. How are you feeling today, sir?

MOHAMMED SAYEH, SENIOR MEMBER, NATIONAL TRANSITIONAL COUNCIL: Very proud, very happy, very content. You can see the great new Libya rising up. The nation will participate in helping and building new future for the Mediterranean and for the whole universe.

COSTELLO: There are still so many questions unanswered this morning. I'll get right to them. One of them is a question about how exactly Moammar Gadhafi died. The National Transitional Council said he was caught in the crossfire and he was shot in the head.

But I want to read you what the former medical examiner here in New York, Dr. Michael Baden, told the "New York Times" after looking at some of the video. This is his quote. This is from Dr. Baden.

He says, it looks more like an execution than something that happened during a struggle. Two pretty identical looking wounds that would have been hard to do from a distance. In other words, he said Moammar Gadhafi was shot twice in the head and the wounds were close together.

So it seems unusual that that kind of damage would be caused if you're caught in the cross fire. Are you convinced that that's how he died or was it something different?

SAYEH: No, no. I am convinced that when we -- when our martyrs captured him (inaudible) as he was describing the Libyan, the brave Libyan, they took him. They were taking him to a hospital. He was shot on his feet, and they were driving him from Sirte to Misrata.

They were in an area where there was lots of crossfire. Our people firing towards the others and vice versa and just shot him in the side of his head and he was dead. So I cannot tell you whether it was from far or near, but it was unintentional.

No one decided to kill him or slaughter him as they were saying. It would have been much better for us Libyans and the whole universe to capture him and take him to a court and see how a dictator, a bad guy who did lots of Libyan and non-Libyan, be judged in front of court.

COSTELLO: One of Gadhafi's sons, we're not clear, Saif Gadhafi. Is he dead or alive?

SAYEH: Yes, he is still alive. That man wasn't viewed by our people and he is still alive. He will be taken to a court, of course.

COSTELLO: So he's been captured and he will --

SAYEH: That -- no, no. You're talking about Mr. Mansour Dao (ph) who was captured yesterday.


SAYEH: And he was interviewed by one of the --


SAYEH: Saif? Saif, well, Saif is, yes, Saif -- it's s not confirmed yet whether he was captured or he's -- but we're sure, we know the area where he is, and for sure he'll be captured very soon, and it will be declared when he is captured.

COSTELLO: Are you worried, you know, that he is still free, because he was the de facto leader. You know, he led Libya in place of his father. Do you fear that there will be more violence because he is still alive and still out there?

SAYEH: Well, you see, these guys are -- because they've got lots of money and they've corrupted lots of people around us, they will do bad things. They will hire professional killers and they will cause lots of problems.

So we want to get rid of all this, and we want to start developing our country. We have lots of work to do. We have, you know -- everything is destroyed by this dictator. Nothing in here. We have to start from scratch. So we need time. Time is very important for us, and we will not be able to get on our feet and start working until we get rid of -- of this dilemma.

I mean, these guys running around, hiring professional killers from Africa and from Serbia --

COSTELLO: May I -- may I interrupt you for just a second, sir. Because we're just getting something crossing from Reuters and I -- I just want you to confirm or deny or tell me what you think.

Reuters is reporting that Saif, the man we were just talking about, is fleeing south towards Libya's border with Niger. That's according to National Transitional Council military official. Your thoughts? SAYEH: No, no. I don't think he'd leave Libya. He's still around the southern mountain, around the area, and our soldiers are following him and they're surrounding him.

COSTELLO: OK. I just want to move on to ask you quickly about the -- the weaponry and who will safeguard it, because we know there -- there are a lot of, like, shoulder-fired missiles, for example. The United States and other countries are worried that adequate security wouldn't be provided to keep those weapons in the right hands.

SAYEH: You see, we have a plan to -- all these young soldiers, young fighters, because actually, when you look at it, most of them came from universities, from schools, and others are professionals, like doctors, engineers and lawyers. They will have to go back to their job now Libya is liberated. Now Gadhafi is not here anymore. So most of them will go back to their previous profession, whether student or a doctor or other things.

Those who are not willing to go -- to keep on their gun -- they will be taken into the army or security forces. So nothing is worrying us because we know our guys are very disciplined. Our motives are very disciplined, very courageous, willing to see their country civilized, state of law, justice and they will follow the procedure that the NTC will plan for them, and --

COSTELLO: I think -- I think, though, sir --

SAYEH: -- it will be followed precisely.

COSTELLO: I think, though, sir, the concern is --

SAYEH: Sorry (ph)?

COSTELLO: -- is that the Transitional Council doesn't have control over all the militias in the country. I mean, this has not been the most orderly rebellion, and that's why some lawmakers here in the United States are concerned about those 20,000 shoulder-fired missiles. They're concerned that they could fall into the wrong hands and be used by terrorists, because, you know, the country, your country, is so in flux right now?

SAYEH: Well, you see, I want to confirm and I want to assure you that all our militias are disciplined, and they -- they obey the orders of the NTC exactly. But concerning the leak of guns in the southern area or places where there are other Islamic groups or anything, well, a minor thing would be possible but (INAUDIBLE) we are in control. Nothing worries us, and you will see how easy and fast all those young fighters will go back to civilian life.

COSTELLO: Mohammed Sayeh, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We appreciate it.

ROMANS: All right. Also new this morning, frank discussions are under way in Islamabad where Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is meeting with Pakistani officials at a news conference. Earlier this morning, Clinton stressed that a strong Pakistan is critical to stability in the Middle East. She also pressure Pakistan to step up efforts to target terrorists along the Afghanistan border.

President Obama is accusing Republicans of again obstructing a bill that would create jobs and get the economy going again. His criticism coming after the Senate rejected -- didn't take up a portion of President Obama's jobs bill that would have provided more money for teachers and first responders. Funding for this slimmed down jobs bill would have been paid for by a 0.5 percent tax increase on people earning more than $1 million a year, something Republicans oppose.

NBA talk breaking down and getting ugly. The Players Association president Laker Derek Fisher accused the league of lying after three days at the table. The NBA has already cancelled the first two weeks of the regular season.

COSTELLO: Oh, let's talk about something good. The World Series. The Texas Rangers pulling even in dramatic fashion in last night's World Series game. They rallied for two runs but they waited until the ninth inning to do it. They held on for a 2-1 win over the Cardinals in Game Two in Busch Stadium. The series now tied at one game apiece, heads back to Texas. Game three tomorrow night.

ROMANS: All right. Coming up, common mistakes that could be costing you money. I'm not talking a little money. I'm talking thousands of dollars. We're "Minding Your Business" right after the break.

It's 22 minutes after the hour.


ROMANS: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. "Minding Your Business" now with the five big mistakes we make every day that cost us major money. Thousands of dollars if you don't do this right, folks.

Number one, you blow off open enrollment. You know some of you do. Especially this time of year when many more of your costs are going to be passed on to you. That HR seminars worth thousands of dollar. The big change this year is switching from PPO and HMO to help savings accounts. It depends. The right -- the right move for you depends on what your health care needs are and open enrollment has just started for most of the big health care plans. So you should get in on this one.

All right, number two, not maxing out and not rebalancing your 401(k). Most companies match money you put in that's free money on the front end, but you need to make sure that you're making the most of this. Don't just let it sit there forever. You've got to rebalance at least every year to make sure that you have the right mix of stocks, bonds and cash for your age. If you don't, you're going to be -- you're going to be out of luck.

Number three, not refinancing your mortgage if you can. If you've got a house worth about $200,000, your mortgage worth about $200,000, you could be saving as much as $60 a week if you switch from a six percent to 4.2 percent mortgage rate on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage.

Number four, why aren't you contesting your property taxes? The National Taxpayers Union says that the 60 percent of properties in this country is over assessed. But fewer than five percent of you actually challenge your property taxes. There you go. The difference could be thousands of dollars.

All right. And, finally, last one, simple but so important. Not budgeting. A simple budget is the only way you're going to know whether you're bleeding cash and living with your means, even living below your means. Building wealth means living 10 percent below your means. If you don't know if you're doing that, unless you have a budget, CNN has a great page that will help you put together a budget and get started. You can check that out at

There you go, saving your money. It's not easy. It takes work, but you've got to do it.

AMERICAN MORNING will be right back after this break.


COSTELLO: It is 30 minutes past the hour. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING.

Top stories for you now:

Libyans still cheering the death of former dictator Moammar Gadhafi. Libya's new government saying he was killed in the crossfire as they finally took his hometown of Sirte.

ROMANS: Video showing Gadhafi's bloody and gruesome final moments. Libyan officials say they found him hiding in the sewer. The phrase is, "The place of the rat Gadhafi," and "You scum," were painted around the hole after the capture. NATO says there was an airstrike on his fleeing convoy that involved a predator drone.

COSTELLO: And now, time to start a new Libya. The new Libyan transitional government saying liberation will be officially announced tomorrow. It's the end of an uprising that began back in February. Gadhafi's 42-year reign positively over.

Twitter is exploding with warnings to other leaders in the Arab world, too, saying, you're next. Many aimed at the presidents of Syria and Yemen.

Mohammed Jamjoom is live in Abu Dhabi.

Good morning, Mohammed.

So how does the fall of Gadhafi impact other uprisings in the Arab world?


Well, that's the key question today. Today is Friday. This is a day of protests across the Arab region. It has been a day of protests across the Arab region since the Arab spring movement began.

And you mentioned Twitter. And as soon as it was announced Gadhafi was killed yesterday, you had a constant stream of messages from places like Yemen, places like Bahrain and places like Syria, where there have been uprisings of their own there. They've been saying that this just means that these other leaders will have to go. The fact that Gadhafi went, leaders like Assad, leaders like Ali Abdullah Saleh in Yemen must go.

It has really given a morale boost to those movements. We've seen Twitter messages from people in Syria saying despite that tragedy that's ongoing there, they're in solidarity with the Libyan people, that they're happy for them. Now, today in Yemen, thousands of people already gathering in the Change Square in the capital, calling not just for the ouster of the president there, also standing in solidarity with the Libyan people, saying that because this happened to Gadhafi, it means that President Saleh in Yemen can't hold on to power much longer.

And we're expecting to see the same type of demonstrations in Syria today. So, today will really be a key moment to the see how the Arab world and countries where they've been deeming with uprisings are their own will be dealing with this post-Gadhafi reality, and if it will reinvigorate their movements. Right now, it does seem to have given this movement a morale boost. It seems to be giving people energy to get back out in the streets and really yet to be seen later today how exactly it happened, how it plays out.

The fear is there will be more crackdowns by these governments but the activists, the protesters in these countries really want to keep coming out into the streets, demonstrating against their leaders and trying to get them out of office -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Mohammed Jamjoom, reporting live for us from Abu Dhabi -- thanks.

ROMANS: All right. The death of Moammar Gadhafi will now only intensify the search for the billions of dollars in assets he hid around the world.

Our Brian Todd has more now on what happens to all that money.


BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Where is Moammar Gadhafi's money? All over the place.

Right now, the United States Treasury Department has $37 billion of money that had belonged to Gadhafi and various Libyan funds frozen in the United States. The United States doesn't control that. They will probably release most of that at the request of the new Libyan government when it wants it.

But according to a group called Global Witness, a watchdog group, an anti-corruption watchdog group, they obtained a statement by the Libyan Investment Authority earlier this summer and they found out from that statement where some of the investments are. Now, according to that statement, the Libyan Investment Authority had almost $20 billion worldwide of deposits in several major banks across the world, including Goldman Sachs, HSBC, British-Arab Commercial Bank and Sahara Bank.

Now, according to that financial statement obtained by Global Witness, the LIA, that Libyan Investment Authority had investments all over the world of at least $64 billion. And we're going to show where you.

Go to Italy, Libya's largest trading partner, where according to the statement, the Libyan Investment Authority had a 2.6 percent stake in Unicredit, which is Italy's largest bank. It had a 2 percent stake in Finmeccanica, the large Italian defense contractor.

Take you further north to Germany where according to this statement, the LIA had an invested in BASF, a chemical firm, a very significant one. It had $531 million stake in the electronics giant Siemens.

Further north to Finland, we all -- many of us have Nokia cell phones. Well, the Libyan investment firm, the state-owned investment arm had investments in Nokia of some significance.

In the United States, many investments in many different firms, G.E., Caterpillar, Halliburton, ExxonMobil and Citigroup.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.


ROMANS: And, of course, all of that oil, it sits on huge, huge oil reserves for Africa that many companies and countries are interested in developing.

All right. Coming up in about an hour, we'll talk to Damon Wilson, he's a former top aide to the NATO secretary general. We're going to ask him what NATO's role should be in a post-Gadhafi Libya.

COSTELLO: Also new this morning, two men had been indicted in the alleged Iranian plot to assassinate Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States. An arraignment hearing for one of the men is scheduled for next week. The two men were arrested last week after allegedly trying to hire a middle man to recruit hit men from Mexican drug cartel to kill the Saudi ambassador, possibly by bombing a restaurant in Washington.

ROMANS: And dramatic testimony yesterday from a drug expert at Michael Jackson's death trial. Dr. Steven Shafer, an expert anesthesiologist, testified that Jackson is dead because his personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, failed to notice he had stopped breathing while he was hooked up to an I.V. drip of Propofol. The jury in the involuntary manslaughter trial of Dr. Murray could get that case next week.

COSTELLO: A double jolt in California. Two small earthquakes hit the San Francisco area yesterday, both near Berkeley. And talk about irony. It happened on the same day more than 8.5 million people were taking part in the annual great California shakeout, an earthquake preparedness drill. People were practicing their duck and conquer techniques in anticipation for, you know, quote, "the big one." So far no reports of damage or injuries.

ROMANS: All right. Rob Marciano is off today. Reynolds Wolf is in the extreme weather center.

Good morning, Reynolds.


Kind of interesting what we saw there in the bay area yesterday. There's little tremors, enough to rattled windows. But speaking of rattling the windows, windows rattling along parts of the great lakes, especially in Milwaukee yesterday due to the strong winds. And look what else it provided. Some mammoth waves right along Lake Michigan as far south, say, Chicago, even Gary, Indiana, the place pummeled by waves and strong winds, causing issues later on today.

Some of those issues are going to be experienced with your travel. We're talking about the winds in New York and Cleveland, the low clouds there, too. Boston, windy conditions might give you delays around an hour. Some places a bit little less.

Throughout the west, a whole different deal. You're going to have -- there's going to be the low clouds and fog might keep you, some delays 15, 20 minutes, some just under an hour. So, keep it in mind.

And in terms of the rest of your forecast, the big thing we're dealing with this morning, it's going to be slow-going across parts of the Ohio Valley and into the South. We've got that freeze that will remain in effect. Later on today, we do expect temperatures to rebound pretty well.

As we wrap things up, 39 degrees currently in Chicago, 51 in New York, 54 in Boston, 47 in Albuquerque and then warming up in Albuequerque to 74, 73 in San Francisco, 63 in Atlanta, 58 in New York.

More on the forecast coming up in a few minutes. Let's pitch it back to you guys in the studio.

COSTELLO: We got it.

WOLF: You got it. Good deal.

ROMANS: Thanks, Reynolds.

All right. Coming up on AMERICAN MORNING, at the end of the month, the world is expected to welcome its 7 billionth person and with the rising population, challenges are born. We'll explain.

It's 38 minutes after the hour.


COSTELLO: Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Good morning.

It's a huge milestone. At the end of the month, the world's population is expected to hit 7 billion. You know, that puts a lot of pressure on the planet. It could pose some serious challenges in terms of food, resources, the environment.

Joining us now, Jeffrey Sachs, director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University and author of the book "The Price of Civilization."

Good morning.


ROMANS: What does the world look like with 7 billion people and we're reaching these milestones more quickly now than we have in the past?

SACHS: We are obviously very crowded. It took only 12 years to go from 6 billion to 7 billion and it's expected to take maybe another 14 years to go to 8 billion. So the trajectory is still rising quickly.

The U.N. forecasts that it's median forecast, not the high or low, but right in the middle, that the world would reach more than 10 billion people by the end of this century, and I think it's pretty serious of a deal. Sounds nice to have --

ROMANS: A big, round number.

SACHS: But it's very, very serious for the planet.

ROMANS: We're running out of resources and you already have through globalization and technology and a changing world, you have more and more people carving up the resources for their -- to grow their own middle classes. As those middle classes grow, as people get more, they want more, and it puts more strain on the economy.

SACHS: Of course. More people, more food, more agricultural needs. More stresses on land, more deforestation, more loss of water, because a lot of places in the world, including the United States, depend on ground water. We're taking it out a lot faster than it's recharging.

We also have climate change, of course globally, because of heavy energy use.

So the world is getting very crowded, and the big problem is that in the poorest countries, families are still having six, seven or eight children. That's what's putting this tremendous growth of population continuing because in the high-income countries, fertility rates have come down to two children on average, or even less, which means eventually stability or even gradual reduction of population.

But it's in the poor countries that can least manage this, where the population remains the highest.

ROMANS: Those who can extrapolate out to the political problems, where you have rich countries, so-called rich countries trying to protect what they have. You worry about protectionism as countries -- people try to preserve their ways of life as there are fewer resources and an economy that, you know, maybe doesn't equally share around the world what we have.

SACHS: We also see tremendous migration pressures now. When you have rapid population growth, in very poor places, and often in environmentally fragile places, that experience lots of droughts or lots of floods, and that's why they're poor. They're having lots of children. People are spilling over across borders, across continents.

This is creating conflict. It's creating tremendous political stress.

ROMANS: So what do we do to fix it? We must use the technology and, new technologies and new ways of thinking to try to head of the potential conflicts here. I mean, one of the problems is that it's hard for rich countries who may have made a lot of mistakes when they were growing through their industrial revolutions and like to turn to poor countries and say, don't do it the way we did.

SACHS: Well, I think the main thing is that when women in poor countries have better choice, they're better inform, they had education, they women choose to have fewer children. They choose to adopt family planning or contraception.

But right now, many can't make that choice. Many young girls are married at the age of 13 or 14 by their parents. That's cultural tradition. They can't afford to go to school even though they want to continue in school.

There isn't health care. There isn't family planning. There isn't really a choice that we have.

So, I think that if we would pay more attention to enabling poor households to have the choice instead of having six or seven children, they would choose to have two or three children, this would be better for them and better for their children in terms of nutrition, health care, education.

ROMANS: The fertility rates are so widely different between developed countries, developing countries, and the very, very poor countries. There's no question. And when you look at Africa, half of he population growth that were forecasting will come from countries in Africa.

SACHS: It's extraordinary. Africa right now has about 900 million people of the Subsaharan region. But by 2050, this could be about, doubling this, at least, this could be on the order of two billion people.

And then, the forecasts are more than three billion people by the end of the century in Africa. The environment can't take it. The economies can't take it. This would create a tremendous, tremendous stress.

ROMANS: What do you feel about China? Because China famously has ventured into family planning. With results -- the human rights advocate there are disastrous, quite frankly. You know, that women, you know, the one-child policy and all of this. Venturing into family planning for countries has to be very careful.

SACHS: Well, I think there's a difference between voluntary and forced, for one thing. The evidence is that if families are given choices, the children are able to stay alive, because there's health care. The girls are able to get educated. The family planning is available. Then, they choose, voluntarily, to have fewer children.

It's better for them. It's better for their children. Better for the prospects, but when they're very, very poor, they need help to be able to have those choices. We're not giving them that help right now, and then, we're addressing the consequences later of exploding populations, conflict, unrest, migration.

We say, oh, my God, the world's unstable, but we're not helping to make it less unstable. More stable.

ROMANS: All right. Jeff Sachs, author of the "Price of Civilization," director of the Earth Institute at Columbia. Very nice to see you this morning.

SACHS: Thank you.

ROMANS: You know, Jeff wrote an article, an in-depth article on the seven billion mark if you want to read more and what it means for the planet. You can check that out at Jeff Sachs, thanks -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Coming up on this AMERICAN MORNING, Herman Cain has been facing criticism over his 9-9-9 tax plan. Today, the candidate hits back.

Plus, remember the JetBlue flight attendant who made a spectacular exit by emergency chute last year? Sure you do. Today, he's learning the consequences of pulling that stunt. It's 47 minutes past the hour.


COSTELLO: Forty-eight minutes past the hour. Here's what you need to know to start your day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COSTELLO (voice-over): Libyans still cheering the death of former dictator, Moammar Gadhafi. The new government saying liberation will be officially announced tomorrow, but the U.N.'s high commissioner of human rights saying today the circumstances of Gadhafi's death need to be investigated.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, is holding talks with Pakistani officials today. The meeting is being described as cordial and frank. Clinton is urging Islamabad to step up its efforts to target militants along the Afghan border.

Greek lawmakers voting to approve top new budget cutting measures. That protest in Athens turned deadly. A local hospital says a 53-year-old protester died after he suffered cardiac arrest.

Major flooding on a direct track towards Thailand's capital, Bangkok. Officials considering opening floodgates to divert the waters back to feet (ph). Officials say it's the worst flooding in half a century.

Herman Cain will try and clarify his 9-99- tax plan today in Detroit. The Republican presidential candidate's plan has come under increased scrutiny after reports middle and lower class Americans would pay way more under his proposal.

The Texas Rangers pulling even in the World Series. They beat the St. Louis Cardinals last night with a two-run rally in the ninth. Whew. The series now hits to Arlington for game three. That was a sacrifice fly, by the way.


COSTELLO (on-camera): That's the news you need to know to start your day. AMERICAN MORNING back after this.


ROMANS: It's day 35 of the Occupy Wall Street protests. You're looking at a live picture right now of Zuccotti Park where thousands remained camped out here in New York. The situation is intensifying after dozens of run-ins with police. Protesters are facing new opposition with local New Yorkers. Residents near Zuccotti Park are voicing concerns about safety and noise issues. At a community board meeting last night, tempers flared. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people are unhappy. You're not happy. We're not happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should be able to walk to work and not have somebody dumping urine in a bucket next to us. We should be able to walk to work and not have somebody yell at us or get yelled at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know when your job will end. So, we're here standing up together for you. For each other. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're worried about your apartment. I pay a lot of rent. There's a lot of Black and Brown people who can't even have an apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People have the right to petition their government and to protest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My neighbors next door at 114 liberty, it is the drumming, and you've got to respect that. People have to be able to live in their homes peaceably.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If my daughter was drumming in my house for 14 hours, I'd murder her.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, if you thought that this was, you know, going to be really quiet for your kids, you're in the wrong place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have to fight for what is best for this country even if that means that one neighborhood in the country may not like it.



ROMANS: Yes. And a local board outlined potential resolutions. Some of the fixes include limiting the use of drums and chanting to only two hours a day during the midday. The resolution goes to a vote on Tuesday.

COSTELLO: Oh, can you imagine constant drumming outside your window?

ROMANS: I know. And one of the things that some of the shop owners are concern about and the residential owners is that people are using, they say people are using the vestibules as places to -- well, I'm not going to go -- I'm not going to go any further.

COSTELLO: Although, just to be fair, I went down there last Saturday, because I wanted to see what it looked like. There were, like, a million tourists down there looking at the Wall Street protests.

ROMANS: Really?

COSTELLO: So, it is bringing business to those businesses who usually don't get a great many customers on the weekend in New York City down there on Wall Street.

ROMANS: I think 35 days, a lot of folks didn't think it would last this long. And now, they're saying, OK, this is going to be a real occupation. And, we need to figure out a way so the people can protest, but so the people who live there as well can have drumming not all the time. (LAUGHTER)

COSTELLO: That would drive you crazy, wouldn't it?

ROMANS: All right. Now, remember this guy, Steven Slater, the fed up? Remember him? The fed up flight attendant for JetBlue? He's going to serve a year of probation on a misdemeanor attempt and criminal mischief charge.

Slater slid into the spotlight after yelling at passengers, and then, making a dramatic exit down the plane's emergency chute last year. Meantime, he still needs to pay 10,000 grand to JetBlue to replace the airplane's chute.

COSTELLO: The late night comics kicking a dictator while he's down. Listen.


CRAIG FERGUSON, HOST, "THE LATE, LATE SHOW WITH CRAIG FERGUSON": Moammar Gadhafi is, in fact, no no-more Gadhafi.


FERGUSON: A spokesperson for the Libyan rebels said Gadhafi will soon be replaced by Ashton Kutcher? I'm like, what?


FERGUSON: It will never work. I don't know. Walks around taking his shirt off all the time, it might work.


JON STEWART, HOST, THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART: Of course, with this sort of event, there's always the question of proof.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a photograph that has been published from a news agency, AFP. I'm going to warn you about that. It's quite graphic.


STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, THE COLBERT REPORT: This morning, rebels seized control of the Gadhafi stronghold of Sirte where they captured and killed Gadhafi, ending his brutal 42-year reign. Now, in hindsight, it may have been a mistake for him to hire bodyguards based on their hotness.



ROMANS: All right.

COSTELLO: I know it feels bad for laughing about that, because it's the death of a man, but -- but I did.

ROMANS: Yes. All right.

Ahead next hour, is a dead Gadhafi an Obama boost? We're going to look at his winning streak when it comes to taking out terrorists and dictators and what it could mean (INAUDIBLE).