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American Morning
New York City Police Clear out Park of Occupy Wall Street Protesters; Jerry Sandusky Admits to Showering with Children; Defense Secretary Warns against Cuts to Military Spending; Health Care Case in Campaign Spotlight; Police Clear Out "Occupy" Park; Abdullah to Assad: "Step Down"; Obama Down Under; Sandusky: "I Am Innocent"; College Sports: A Dirty Business?; Gabrielle Giffords in First Interview; Occupy Protests Cleared Out
Aired November 15, 2011 - 06:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news to tell you about this morning. The New York City police department moving in on Wall Street protesters overnight just days before they promised to really shake things up downtown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jerry Sandusky is a big, overgrown kid. He's a jock.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Jerry Sandusky's lawyer hinting at his client's defense, and the accused molester himself also speaking out saying he's only guilty of horsing around with children.
COSTELLO: First Rick Perry. Now, it's Herman Cain who has a case of the oops. The candidate freezing when reporters ask him about Libya.
ROMANS: Smiling positive and looking forward. Ten months after being shot in the head, Gabby Giffords speaks. Will she return to Congress on this AMERICAN MORNING?
COSTELLO: And good morning to you. It is Tuesday, November 15th. Ali Velshi has off today. I'm Carol Costello along with Christine Romans. Welcome to AMERICAN MORNING.
ROMANS: Yes. First this morning, breaking news. New York City telling the Wall Street protesters it's time to take up your tents, pick up your tarps, get your stuff, and go. Overnight police cleared out Zuccotti Park. This is where the Occupy movement started. The hundreds of protesters now on the streets. They are watching and waiting. That's because they've been told they can return once sanitation crews have finished cleaning up the park.
Poppy Harlow live in lower Manhattan. So Poppy, is the park open yet for demonstrators and protesters yet?
POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: The park is not open yet. You've got traffic walking by, you can see, Christine. But as you can see, it's barricaded on all four sides. A lot of police officers down here. And, also, you see those people in yellow vests? I was told by one they are park security. So we're not sure if they're from the city or from Brookfield, which is the company that owns this park.
But it's a fascinating park. We've been reporting down here live since 2:00 in the morning. The escalation ramped up in the wee hours in the morning from 2:00 to 3:00 to 4:00 a.m., 5:00 a.m. when was on live with Carol. You had all of the protesters taken out of the part. A number of them were arrested, we saw them loaded onto NYPD buses.
And we had a chance to talk throughout the night to these protestors, whey were they leaving? How did it go down in the park? Because we as journalists were not allowed by the NYPD past barricades a block and a half away from here. We were not allowed to get into the park until 5:00 in the morning after trying for three hours. So take a listen to those in the park who got evicted to their experience. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: What happened? You said you just left the park? It's about 3:00 a.m. Tell me what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was sleeping when I heard all sorts of shouting and screaming going on. Woke up to see the cops were surrounding the park, barricading it. I couldn't hear the order through the microphone. It wasn't until 20 minutes later I figured out what was happening, trying to kick us all out.
HARLOW: Can you tell us what happened and why you are all gathering here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are all gathering here to continue to support the need for justice in this world. The growing income gap and the elite are runaway in controlling this entire country, and this is it. It's a continued stand.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: All right, and now, Christine, I want to pull up video we got. We were one of the few cameras that got into Zuccotti Park around 5:00 a.m. when the cleanup crews were in here. Hopefully you're seeing this video here.
What I found was basically nothing like we've seen the last two months. All the tents were taken down. The cleaning crews were sweeping up what was left of the Occupy Wall Street movement. You saw piles and tarps and clothes from the protesters in the corners of the park. Sorry. Obviously it's Wall Street. People are coming down to work. But that -- that's what happened.
Now, there's a sign that has been posted down here, Christine, that when they do open the park and protesters can come back in, the sign says, there's a 10:00 curfew. No tents aloud. No sleeping bags allowed. The city and Brookfield, which owns the park, is making it clear they do not want protesters camping here overnight.
ROMANS: Poppy Harlow, thanks so much. Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, had a statement that basically said they've had two months to occupy the park with tents and sleeping bags. He says now they'll have to occupy the space with the power of their arguments.
There you go.
COSTELLO: Poppy Harlow, thanks.
This morning's crackdown followed the actions of other cities fed up with the filth and reported crime in these Occupy encampments. In Oakland, California, police tore down tents and arrested some Occupy protesters after they refused to leave a city park yesterday. Joining me now is Sergeant Rick Fulginiti, a spokesperson for the national fraternal order of police. Welcome.
SERGEANT RICK FULGINITI, SPOKESPERSON FOR THE NATIONAL FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: Good morning.
COSTELLO: I know you've been seeing a bit of what's happening in New York City. So police at 1:00 a.m. eastern time this morning surround the park. They got on the bull horns, shined lights into the park and said it's time to go. Get out of the park. We need to clear it out. You can come back. Why did police do this at 1:00 a.m.?
FULGINITI: I guess they chose 1:00 a.m. because it gives them the advantage. It gives them the opportunity to go ahead and take control of the situation.
COSTELLO: How so?
FULGINITI: Well, you know, the protesters have a right to their First Amendment freedom of speech, but they also have been told, the First Amendment also says that they can peaceably assemble. When it comes to the point where the crowds are not peaceable, the police will go ahead and take action and make arrests where necessary.
COSTELLO: How difficult has these Occupy protests been for police as far as -- because you can't explain things. You try not to, but sometimes things just happen. So how difficult has this been for police?
FULGINITI: Well, police officers are trained to go ahead and put up with all kinds of situations. You know, they raise their right hand, and they take an oath to uphold the constitution. And so when they're sent out in to go ahead and perform their duty, they're not taking a side one way or the other, but they will protect the constitution and the laws on the books.
COSTELLO: Mayor Bloomberg put out a statement. Christine read a little. I'll read you a little more. This is from Mayor Bloomberg -- "I could not wait for someone in the park to get killed or injure another first responder before acting. Others have cautioned about action because enforcing our laws might be used by some protesters as a pretext for violence. But we must never be afraid to insist on compliance with our laws."
As you observe these Occupy movements across the country, has violence become a continuing problem, or are there just a few incidents here and there, and police are afraid those incidents might increase in number?
FULGINITI: That's exactly correct. I think they're worried they will increase. You know, the officers are out there. They're not only protecting the protesters, but they're protecting the public safety. And they're also protecting themselves. I understand that the protesters have a problem with them donning their riot gear, but they come dressed in riot gear to not only protect themselves but to go ahead and protect the public.
COSTELLO: And just a final question for you. Police here in New York City said these protesters cannot camp out overnight in Zuccotti Park. A 10:00 p.m. curfew has been instituted now. We know protesters will probably not like that move and maybe some of them will try to camp out despite the curfew. So how do police handle a situation like that?
FULGINITI: Well, as you've seen with various cities across the country right now, they will go ahead and they'll get on their bull horns and they'll tell them to disperse. Give them ample opportunity to move on. If they choose to violate the law they will be arrested.
COSTELLO: Sergeant -- I should be able to say this, because, I, too am Italian -- Fulginiti. Thank you very much, sergeant. We appreciate it.
FULGINITI: Thank you.
COSTELLO: And New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg is scheduled to hold a press conference in just about an hour. Of course we'll take that press conference when it happens.
ROMANS: "Costello" is easier to say.
COSTELLO: Yes, but some of my relatives, man, you wouldn't believe it.
(LAUGHTER)
ROMANS: Great interview, Carol.
Former Penn State Coach Jerry Sandusky speaking out for the first time since being accused of sexually abusing eight young boys. Sandusky says he's not a pedophile and he's innocent of all charges. In an interview with NBC's Bob Costas, Sandusky does admit having close contact with minors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE COACH: I could say that, you know, I have done some of those things. I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them and I have touched their leg without intent of sexual contact. But -- so if you look at it that way, there are things that -- that wouldn't -- you know, would be accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROMANS: Sandusky's attorney is also speaking out for the first time. He talked with CNN National Correspondent Jason Carroll. Jason is live now in State College, Pennsylvania. Good morning, Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you, Christine. You know, specifically, we talked about many things during this interview that I had with Sandusky's attorney, more than 40 minutes long.
And talking about the showering, that's important, Christine, because, as you know, that was one of the points brought out in that 23-page grand jury report, prosecutors saying the showering was part of a pattern. Well, Sandusky's attorney says there was no pattern here. He says that, yes, Sandusky did shower with these young boys and that he does regret doing that. But he says that does not mean he sexually assaulted anyone. Take a listen to that segment of my interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Do you believe in his innocence?
JOE AMENDOLA, SANDUSKY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I do. I do. Jerry Sandusky is a big, overgrown kid. He's a jock. For anybody who's ever played sports, you get showers after you work out. I mean, when people hear he got showers with kids, oh, my goodness. You know, like, you got showers with kids? That makes him guilty, right? Obviously anybody who gets a shower with a kid as an adult has to be guilty of something.
But the bottom line is, jocks do that. I mean, they kid around, they horse around. And in fact, what Jerry says in regard to the one allegation involving with the assistant coach or the grad student said he saw, he said we were horsing around. He said we weren't engaged in sexual activity.
CARROLL: I want to wait before we go to that because that's different. But even in just talking about the showering, I think a lot of people have trouble with the --
AMENDOLA: I agree.
CARROLL: -- idea of a man showering with a young boy. What are your thoughts on that?
AMENDOLA: I wouldn't do it. I'm sure you wouldn't do it. I would feel uncomfortable doing it. But Jerry did that. But -- but -- but that's a far different thing than saying he got showers with kids than saying that he committed these other acts which the prosecution has alleged he did. I mean, what's going to come out in this case is that Jerry did get showers with kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: And, Christine I want to follow-up with something, if I may. As you know, back in 1998, Sandusky was accused of showering with a young boy. That incident was actually brought to the attention of authorities, and Sandusky said he would not do it again. He apologized for that.
But then he did do it again allegedly in 2000 and again in 2002. And so my question to his attorney was, look, after getting in trouble back in 1998 for showering with a young boy, why, then, would he do it again if there wasn't something else going on? Again, Sandusky said that, look, that doesn't mean that something sexual went on. He said what he did by doing it again was, quote, "pretty stupid." But he said once again it does not mean that he's gutty of sexual assault. Christine?
ROMANS: Jason Carroll, so much to keep following in this story as it developing. Thanks, Jason.
COSTELLO: A dire announcement this morning from the defense secretary. Leon Panetta is set to testify on military budget cuts. He's already warned the super committee that deeper cuts could be devastating using the words "hollow military." Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon. Good morning, Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you. Well, Panetta will be on the Hill in just over two hours testifying about all of this and the war in Iraq. But he's calling this really devastating and unacceptable, the potential for up to $1 trillion in budget cuts in military spending over the next decade. It's really the new doomsday scenario here at the Pentagon -- cuts in airplanes, ships, ground combat vehicles.
But when he talks about it all leading to a hollow force, what does that really mean? Have a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEON PANETTA, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's a ship without sailors. It's a brigade without bullets. It's an air wing without enough trained pilots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: All of that now leading, we are told, according to the secretary, to the smallest army since before World War II, the smallest Air Force ever.
Is it really a problem? Well, analysts are looking at it, and what we've talked to a number of them. What they tell us is that, you know, what it will lead to is the U.S. military not being able to conduct two full wars, let's say, in both Asia and the Middle East, two hot spots, which leads to a really fascinating question -- will the U.S. ever be involved in a major land war again? Carol, Christine?
COSTELLO: I guess we'll just have to hope the super committee comes to an agreement on time and all of these things won't happen, right? STARR: Exactly. You know, it's Washington. They've already left themselves a back door out to maybe repeal the budget cuts if they do happen.
COSTELLO: Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon. Thank you.
ROMANS: All right, still to come this morning, the Supreme Court saying it will tackle President Obama's health care law next year. And the decision will come right in the thick of the 2012 race. Jeff Toobin here to look at what's at stake for people who are already benefiting from the law.
COSTELLO: And we're following breaking news this morning. A tense situation right now in lower Manhattan after police clear out Zuccotti Park. That's where the occupy movement started nearly two months ago. We'll bring you the latest.
It's 14 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Well, welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. It's 16 minutes past the hour.
The U.S. Supreme Court will decide on President Obama's health care law, and the ruling likely will come right in the middle of the 2012 Presidential race.
ROMANS: The justices will decide whether the law is unconstitutional and whether Congress went too far by requiring that all Americans buy health insurance or pay a penalty.
Joining us now is CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin. And Jeff, the White House said they welcome this because they want -- they want to clear this up once and for all and they say they know it's constitutional?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there -- the momentum appears to be on their side. The courts recently including two very respected conservative judges, one in the D.C. Circuit, one in the Sixth Circuit in Cincinnati, have both upheld the law. So I think more judges have been upholding it than striking it down, but you never know what the Supreme Court's going to do and it's a big risk. But --
COSTELLO: You never do know what the Supreme Court's going to do, but the deciding thing in most people's minds is this individual mandate.
TOOBIN: Correct.
COSTELLO: The requirement that people buy insurance and whether that's constitutional. From what you know about the justices, is it likely that the conservatives will go with kind of the Republican way and the liberals on the court will go the Democratic way? TOOBIN: You know, sad to say, that's usually the case at the Supreme Court. We figure the Supreme Court sometimes is different from the other branches the government, but you've got five Republicans and four Democrats on the Supreme Court. And that's pretty much all you need to know about the Supreme Court.
However, this would be an enormous step. You know, the federal government has been involved in the medical industry, in health care with Medicare, with Medicaid for decades. To say that the federal government cannot take this additional step would be a very dramatic difference from prior law, I think. And If I had to bet I think they will uphold it, but, you know, it is not going to be an obvious case.
You know, the Supreme Court usually takes an hour for each case. They scheduled 5-1/2 hours of argument on this case. So, you know, they think it's pretty important.
ROMANS: Well, some of the proponents of it, people can't even feel yet. You know, that whether you buy insurance 2014 I think is when that starts.
TOOBIN: Correct.
ROMANS: But right now there are things happening that people feel, like, your 26-year-old kid can get health insurance, children are automatically covered with pre-existing conditions. So things could change potentially for people who are already, quote-unquote, "enjoying the benefits of health care reform"?
TOOBIN: Well, one of the -- one of the many complexities of this case is does this lawsuit challenge just the individual mandate, just the requirement to buy health insurance, or does it strike down the whole law? And that's one of the things this court scheduled argument on.
There's also the problem of if they strike down the individual mandate forcing everyone into the insurance market, how do they pay for the rest of it? Even if they don't strike down the rest of it, the whole idea is, force healthy people to get --
ROMANS: Wow.
TOOBIN: -- insurance so that that will subsidize the people with pre-existing conditions, the people who wouldn't otherwise be insurable.
If you take the individual mandate out, how does the funding mechanism of the whole law work? So there are a lot of moving parts here. But I think you are basically going to get a thumbs up on the whole thing, thumbs down on the whole thing and, you know, it's going to be an immense significance.
COSTELLO: Go back to what you said before about how these justices will decide. Wouldn't the eyes of the country be on them? Because the country, we've always hear it, we don't like activist judges in this country. We want judges to decide things on the merits of the law, the Constitution. And are you saying that you don't think that this will happen?
TOOBIN: Well, but, I mean -- I think in fairness to the justices, you know, what is, according to the constitution, it's very much in the eye of the beholder. I mean, it is not a simple question about whether this is constitutional. It's not like you read the Constitution and the answer is obvious. They have different judicial philosophies (ph) --
COSTELLO: Some people actually believe that.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, everybody has, you know, pat answers, but, I mean, the fact is, these are difficult questions that people in good faith have strong disagreements on. So it's not like it's -- you know, that they're being bad people or being politicians.
ROMANS: Quick question on the Sandusky tape with Bob Costas from NBC. We see them, I guess, laying out the defense strategy. Was that a smart move?
TOOBIN: You know what, I don't think so. I do think it's a good idea to remind people that this guy is innocent until proven guilty. And a lawyer going on television to say that is a -- is a smart thing.
I mean, you know, it's also worth remembering, in the 1980s, we had a whole spate of false accusation of criminal -- of sexual abuse of children. The McMartin preschool, all those supposed satanic cults in daycare centers turned out to be false. So it's worth it to remind people of that.
However, if you're going to go on television, you want to tell people something that they're going to find credible, and going on television to say, well, he liked taking showers with boys, but that's normal and that's what jocks do, I don't think many people are going to find that very persuasive. I think that people are going to find that incriminating. So I think that was a mistake.
COSTELLO: So the big, overgrown kid thing doesn't --
TOOBIN: I -- that's not -- I don't think something you're going to sell to a jury or the court of public opinion.
ROMANS: All right, Jeff Toobin. Thanks, Jeff.
COSTELLO: Thanks, Jeff.
TOOBIN: All right, you guys.
COSTELLO: Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, the trouble with big time college sports. We're taking an in-depth look this morning at the culture that's led to scandals on and off the field, including of course the biggest of them all what's happening right now at Penn State.
ROMANS: But first, a quick look at today's travel forecast. That means, Rob Marciano. Take it away, Rob. ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, guys.
A front stretching from the northeast all the way down to the Rio Grande is bringing you rainfall in those areas and that will cause some travel delays. Also some severe weather across parts of South Texas and that will be pushing off this severe thunderstorm watch just west of San Antonio. You will take the rain, but you might get some wind with it over the next couple of hours.
Not so much in the way of winds, a gentle rain moving across upstate New York and parts of Pennsylvania, and this will drift into the I-95 corridor over the next couple of hours. That may cause a couple of slight delays across the New York City metros, D.C., and Philly as well. Boston, some rain eventually and some wind behind this system. It will eventually get colder, a 10- to 20-degree drop in temperatures by Thursday and Friday.
Twenty-two minutes after the hour. AMERICAN MORNING is coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Welcome back. Good morning. "Minding Your Business" this morning.
Stocks slide as investors wait to see how the political change in both Greece and Italy will affect the European debt crisis. Right now U.S. stock futures trading lower again. Yesterday the Dow, the NASDAQ and the S&P 500 were all off by a little less than one percent.
Good news for Walmart this morning, the company just announced it raked in nearly $110 billion in sales in the U.S. in the third quarter. That's up more than eight percent from the same time last year, very important going into the holiday shopping season.
In about an hour from now, we get our fresh report on -- on just how much Americans spent in October on retail items overall.
Federal safety regulators are expanding their investigation into a potential issue with the automatic shift lever on several GM cars. The problem, the diver puts the car in park, but the transmission is still in drive or reverse.
The original investigation involved the Saturn Aura, but now officials want to know if the problem also affects the Chevrolet Malibu and the Pontiac G6.
Tons of Americans planning to retire, but maybe putting their golf and gardening and travel plans on hold. According to a new Yahoo Finance survey, 37 percent of Americans have no retirement savings, and 38 percent plan to live off social security.
And the music industry is trying to shut down a site that allows you to sell the music you purchased online to others. The service is called ReDiGi and it claims to be a legal way to get rid of those unwanted music files, but the music industry is accusing the site of copyright infringement.
AMERICAN MORNING will be right back after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, CHARGED WITH SEXUALLY ABUSING CHILDREN (via telephone): I say that I am innocent of those charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Innocent, completely innocent and falsely accused in every aspect?
SANDUSKY: Well, I could say that, you know, I had done some of those things. I have horsed around with kids. I -- I have showered after workouts.
COSTELLO (voice-over): Jerry Sandusky speaks, the disgraced former Penn State coach telling NBC he horsed around and showered with young boys, but there was nothing sexual about it -- on this AMERICAN MORNING.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: And welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Top stories we're following, breaking news, a crackdown on the "Occupy Wall Street" protesters.
Overnight police surrounded and cleared out Zuccotti Park, the birthplace of the "Occupy" movement. Sanitation crews are now cleaning up. A number of protesters were taken into custody for refusing to leave the area.
Mayor Bloomberg's office says the demonstrators will eventually be allowed to return, but they can no longer camp out overnight.
New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg scheduled to hold a press conference about a half hour from now at 8 Eastern. We're going to take you live there when it happens.
COSTELLO: Jordan's King Abdullah is now the first Arab leader to call on Syrian President Assad to step down. Saying if he were Assad, he would begin talks now for an orderly transition of power. More than 3,500 people have been killed since Assad's government started cracking down on protesters in the last eight months.
ROMANS: President Obama leaves for a two-day trip to Australia later today. The president will deliver a speech to parliament commemorating America's 60-year military alliance with Australia. He is also expected to announce a plan for a more pronounced U.S. military presence in the country.
COSTELLO: Jerry Sandusky speaking out for the first time since the Penn State scandal broke, and he denies ever sexually abusing children. In a phone interview with NBC's Bob Costas, the former assistant coach admitted some details in the grand jury report were true. He did shower, horse around with young boys. Sandusky was asked exactly what he thought he did wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY, FORMER PENN STATE COACH: Well, in retrospect, I shouldn't have showered with those kids --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it?
SANDUSKY: Well, that's what hits me the most.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you a pedophile?
SANDUSKY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sexually attracted to young boys, to underage boys?
SANDUSKY: Am I sexually attracted to underage boys?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
SANDUSKY: Sexually attracted? No. I enjoy young people. I love to be around them, but, no, I'm not sexually attracted to young boys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Sandusky's charged with 40 counts of sexual abuse. "The New York Times" is reporting police are now investigating new claims from more possible victims.
ROMANS: All right, some have blamed the scandal on the culture that permeates a big time college sports programs like the one at Penn State.
Our next guest compares it to the Mafia. Taking an in- depth look at the problem this morning, the culture in these big time, big-money sports.
Buzz Bissinger, author of "Friday Night Lights" and a sports columnist for "The Daily Beast" and a contributing editor to "Vanity Fair," he joins us from Philadelphia.
We've just listened to some of that sound. I've got to get your reaction. I mean, you know sports. You know the culture of big- time sports. I mean, is it normal for a coach to be naked in the shower with other players, let alone children?
BUZZ BISSINGER, SPORTS COLUMNIST, "THE DAILY BEAST": No. I mean, it's ridiculous. He's already incriminated himself. His lawyer Amendola should be disbarred. This was one of the most ridiculous, disgraceful performances I've ever seen. First of all, I don't believe a word Sandusky says. I don't think anyone does. As I say, he's incriminated himself merely by being in the shower and this vague, well, I kind of touched their leg.
His repudiation of McQueary is completely not credible. McQueary is coming out saying that he tried to stop it. I think McQueary would know the difference between anal intercourse and the snapping of a towel.
There are too many allegations against this man, and his effect was eerie. He was flat, has no remorse. I think he is a classic, delusional, narcissist monster.
ROMANS: You know, his attorney is going to say that my client is innocent and try to explain some of these situations. From the outside, I'm going to tell you, showering with children, a man in his 50 showering with children at night by themselves, I mean, to the average person, it just doesn't seem appropriate, but then you hear his attorney say, look, he's a big kid. He's a jock. That's what jocks do. Is that what jocks do?
BISSINGER: That's not what jocks do, not the jocks that I know. I don't know what he's talking about, a coach in his 50s showering with a 10-year-old. Wait a sec. At 9:30 at night on a Friday? Come on. Let's get real. Let's get real.
His lawyer -- I have to believe that his lawyer is in it for his own publicity, and I have to believe that the culture of State College and Centre County and Happy Valley is a backwater that lives, I don't know, 1950s, 1940s.
We all know that judge had a conflict of interests. Let's him out on $100,000 bail, non-secured. No one, no one took these charges seriously. Penn State had no plan, obviously, until the governor stepped in. This thing stinks from beginning to end and I get upset, because -- go ahead, I'm sorry.
ROMANS: That's why you make the analogy of a Mafia. I mean, you say there such a power structure, where such a few, a small number of people have so much power that what they do is not questioned. That's the analogy you're making?
BISSINGER: They don't question -- Penn State football is God. You don't touch God. You don't touch football. You don't touch Zeus, which is Joe Paterno. Everybody, everybody abdicated their moral and public responsibility.
Everybody, and now Sandusky, who apparently is in New York getting his Dunkin doughnuts gives this ludicrous interview and his lawyer in a natty suit and tie, we're going to find some victims. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.
ROMANS: Does anything ever change? I mean, it's about money. There are those who can say, this is different. This is a story about pedophilia, not about football power. Or this is a story about a man wrongly accused who just loves kids. I mean, and the whole wave these empires are built in sports doesn't change.
BISSINGER: No. It is the code of America. You name me one football scandal and maybe there's some and there probably are, where someone from the inside, a coach actually turned in his program.
It will never happen. They protect their own at all costs, and I am now convinced more than ever after listening to Bob Costas' superb questioning that this guy is more guilty than ever and the Code of Emerta is worse than ever.
ROMANS: There's going to be a legal process and I mean, we've got to let that play out. But I'm going to tell you something, former Oklahoma University football coach Barry Switzer told a local newspaper this. He said, "Having been in the profession a long time and knowing how close the coaching staffs are, I know that this was a secret that was kept secret." Everyone on the staff had to have known the ones that had been around a long time.
What do you make of that from other people who are in, you know, these big programs or have been in that big programs saying, this is a -- this has got to be a one off?
BISSINGER: Well, I mean, I quoted Barry Switzer in my column for "Newsweek." Barry Switzer is exactly right. I wasn't. I have spent a lot of time in clubhouses. I've spent a lot of time in locker rooms.
These guys know everything that's going on. There's a lot of down time. They gossip constantly. They don't only know what's going on among their coaches. They know what's going on among every other coach.
Barry Switzer is exactly right and Bobby Bowden said the same thing, former coach at Florida State. They knew and they buried it. I do not believe for a second that Joe Paterno was not informed of the 1998 original investigation.
Which, by the way, the report was read by the Vice President Schultz who has now stepped down with his $330,000 pension that I am paying for, because I am a Pennsylvania state taxpayer.
ROMANS: Well, that's a good point, too, and the pensions, that's another angle to follow as we go forward, too, about how the money keeps flowing.
Buzz Bissinger, thanks so much. Next time try to really tell us how you real feel about it, Buzz.
BISSINGER: I get very upset.
ROMANS: I know.
BISSINGER: Been doing this 20 years.
COSTELLO: I'm just curious because aren't we all partially to blame for this? We are a football culture. I mean, fans are passionately connected to teams and to players and we excuse lots of bad behavior for our favorite players so our teams can win.
You can't just lay it at the feet of these coaches. You have to lay at the feet of the fans, too. I'm not saying most would excuse child sexual abuse, but I'm just saying that we excuse all sorts of bad behavior from our sports heroes and we think it's OK in the end because those players continue to play.
ROMANS: Is Buzz still there?
Bottom line, though, these are the allegations against one guy. One guy, and in are those who love Penn State, love that program, who are football players, who have been brought up and through that program are going to say, you can't blame the system for one bad guy.
Buzz, weigh in.
BIZZINGER: Well, I mean, look, the whole beast of college football is propitious. Fans are crazy. But at the bottom line, you have coaches and you have presidents.
They're the people in authority. There are dozens of cases of coaches letting players play who have rape charges against them, who have gun charges against them. The bottom line --
COSTELLO: People are still going to be games. Fans still go to those games, because those crimes aren't considered as serious as child sex abuse. They go to the game. They support it. The programs make money. So aren't we in part to blame, too?
BISSINGER: No. I don't think we in part are to blame because, I mean, football, whether we like it or not is a part of the culture and as I say, you have people who are accountable. You have a God, Joe Paterno.
You have the president, Graham Spanier. You have an athletic director, Tim Curley. You have other coaches. Tim McQueary who says he did something, but it sounds like he did nothing. Look, you have responsible people who are there to monitor this.
Look, football is out of control. I think it should be taken out of the university system. Not only are there programs who make money, there are dozens of programs who lose money. You know who pays for Athletic Departments, student fees.
COSTELLO: That's right.
BISSINGER: It is crazy.
COSTELLO: That's right. I just want to add one thing. What, 100,000 people went to that game this past weekend where Penn State played, 100,000?
BISSINGER: It's 107,000. But I think part of it was because they wanted to show catharsis, we've expiated our guilt. B.S, B.S., B.S, I'm delighted Sandusky did this, because you know what? It puts it back in the news. We have to keep this going. ROMANS: All right, Buzz Bissinger, thanks so much. It's nice to see you. Come back.
COSTELLO: I'm exhausted after that.
ROMANS: Don't get Carol going.
COSTELLO: I love football, too, but at some point you've got to step back and say, maybe I'm part of the problem, too. I don't know.
Still ahead, Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords speaking out for the first time since she was shot in a fascinating attempt last winter, a difficult recovery still in progress. It's 41 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Good morning, Atlanta, cloudy, 62, showers and 74 later on today.
COSTELLO: Good morning to you. She's a fighter, a survivor and an inspiration. Now for the first time we hear her story in her own words. Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords sat down last night for her first interview since the attack on her life back in January. ABC's "20/20" showed intimate video of her ongoing recovery.
Giffords is still learning to walk and talk again, but she's making fascinating progress, enough to speak publicly about the deadly shooting spree that almost killed her.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DIANNE SAWYER, ANCHOR, 20/20: And when Mark told you what happened?
REP. GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, (D), ARIZONA: I cried. Died.
MARK KELLY, ASTRONAUT & HUSBAND OF GABRIELLE GIFFORDS: Sad.
GIFFORDS: Sad. Oh, sad. A lot of people died.
SAWYER: Its hurts your heart.
GIFFORDS: Yes. Yes, yes. Tough, tough, tough.
SAWYER: Do you ever get angry at what happened to you?
GIFFORDS: No, no, no.
SAWYER: No?
GIFFORDS: No. Life -- life. No better.
SAWYER: It's better?
GIFFORDS: I -- I -- oh -- KELLY: She wants to get better.
GIFFORDS: Better.
SAWYER: You want to get better?
GIFFORDS: Better.
SAWYER: And so you think to yourself, I'll go back to Congress if I get better?
GIFFORDS: Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
SAWYER: And that's where you are right now?
GIFFORDS: Yes, yes, yes.
SAWYER: Is there a word for Mark? What's the first word you think of?
GIFFORDS: Brave. Brave.
KELLY: Thank you.
GIFFORDS: Brave, brave.
KELLY: That's what I think of when I think of you, too. Brave and tough.
GIFFORDS: Tough, tough, tough.
KELLY: Tough as nails.
KELLY: Tough as nails.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: She is. And she has such a good attitude. That beautiful smile. But how frustrating it must be not to be able to express your thoughts and words.
ROMANS: Yes. And what an amazing story of them as a couple, too. You know, he is just retired. It's a --
COSTELLO: You can see her touching his hand and him helping her find the words.
ROMANS: I know. We're going to have more of that inspiring story in the next hour.
Plus, we're going to speak with two other survivors from that shooting spree in Tucson. They're headed to Washington to fight for stricter gun laws. COSTELLO: Morning headlines coming your way, next. Plus, Google Earth finds a mysterious pattern, literally dug into the desert in China. What is this? Why? Is it a sign of something sinister? The leading conspiracy theories is coming your way next.
ROMANS: And today's "Romans' Numeral" is 278 ton. Here's a hint. This one really stinks and it's awfully controversial.
Forty-seven minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Forty-eight minutes past the hour. Here are your morning headlines.
U.S. stock futures are trading lower as Europe's debt crisis continues to hang over the market. Investors remain concerned about whether or not the political transitions in Greece and Italy will help resolve that region's financial problems.
Developing here in New York City, crews are now cleaning up Zuccotti Park where hundreds of Wall Street protesters have been camping out. Overnight police arrested dozens of protesters. The mayor's office says the demonstrators will be allowed to return. They can just no longer camp out overnight.
And New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg is scheduled to hold a news conference in about 10 minutes, at 8:00 a.m. Eastern. We'll take you there live when it happens.
Jerry Sandusky proclaiming his innocence in his first public comments since the Penn State sexual abuse case erupted. The former coach tells NBC he's not a pedophile. He admits showering and horsing around with boys but says there was no sexual intent. Sandusky is facing 40 counts of child sex abuse.
Jordan's King Abdullah is now the first Arab leader to publicly call on the Syrian president to step down. This comes just days after the Arab League voted to suspend Syria's membership. The violent crackdown on protesters has now claimed more than 3,500 lives.
President Obama heads for the Land Down Under today. During his two-day trip, the president will address the Australian parliament and announce an expanded U.S. military presence in the country.
And authorities in Venezuela arresting five more suspects in connection with the kidnapping of Major League Baseball player, Wilson Ramos. Ramos was rescued Friday after a shootout with his suspected kidnapper.
No deal for the NBA. The players union turned down the league's latest offer in a dispute over a collective bargaining agreement, calling it unfair. The union says it's prepared to file an anti-trust lawsuit against the NBA.
And that's the news you need to start your day. AMERICAN MORNING, back after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROMANS: Good morning, New York City. Partly cloudy, 62. Showers and 64 later today.
Of course, we've been telling you about Zuccotti Park, down town, that has been cleared out by Mayor Bloomberg and by police. And this morning's "Romans' Numeral" has something to do with that sort of.
(LAUGHTER)
ROMAN: 278 tons, that's the amount of debris cleared from "Occupy Wall Street" protests over the weekend in Oakland, California. We had seen city after city start to give those eviction notices, and start to move people out. In Denver, they were moving out furniture. In Oakland, they moved out 278 tons of debris. That's tents, sleeping bags, stuffed cardboard boxes, garbage, junk. And now you're seeing it in lower Manhattan.
The real issue here is the public safety. And I think these are Oakland pictures that we're looking at right here. But -- yes, that's Oakland pictures. People yesterday were very upset in the very early hours about police coming in and moving them all out. But it became a public safety issue, they say, there, after a fatal shooting nearby. And now Michael Bloomberg, the mayor of New York, saying he doesn't want anybody to get hurt here. They're moving people out but allow them to go back in later today.
COSTELLO: Sort of a preemptive move but they're no longer to camp out overnight in New York City.
ROMANS: That's right.
COSTELLO: And there's a 10:00 p.m. Eastern curfew. We'll see how that goes.
It is a retail revolt. Target employees have started a petition, calling on the retailer to reverse its decision to open up its doors on Thanksgiving. According to the petition, workers must report to work by 11:00 p.m. on Thanksgiving Day so that stores can open their doors at midnight. They write, "This decision robs workers of time with their families."
ROMANS: Yes. And some of these workers say they really resent it. They have thousands and thousands of people who have signed this petition. but I have been asking people, too, at 9 percent unemployment, and time and a half for any time you're working on Thanksgiving, is this the environment be to sort of resenting working in.
(LAUGHTER)
And people are very divided about it. Some people just blame, quite frankly, this retail culture. That, three years after a crisis brought on by having too much debt, we're all into the hype, again, of spending money. Going out and spending money.
COSTELLO: Every year there seems to be criticism of stores that do open their doors like at midnight on Thanksgiving night. And there are so many people in line. People get trampled and they get hurt. and it's this weird frenzied thing that goes on. Should that happen during the holidays anyway?
ROMANS: But I read a record number today that a record number of people shopped on -- 22 million people shopped on Thanksgiving last year.
So, they open the doors and the people come. And they spend their money.
COSTELLO: And most people don't want to spend time with their families.
(LAUGHER)
ROMANS: Sometimes you can do it as a family.
(LAUGHTER)
COSTELLO: That's true.
ROMANS: You know?
COSTELLO: You're right, it's an outing.
ROMANS: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
All right, London stepping up security for the 2012 Olympics in a big way. Ground to air missiles may be on hand. The U.K. defense secretary says it's one of the security options for the summer games. British newspaper "The Guardian" claims that the U.S. is concerned about security and plans to send its own personnel and FBI agents. The Olympics kick off in January.
COSTELLO: A mysterious discovery in China has researchers stumped. Check this out, a bizarre tangle of white lines seems to have been etched into the ground of a remote desert. This grid pattern was spotted by satellite, you know, way up in space. It's more than a mile long, although it's unclear what exactly that white stuff is that makes up the lines. There are several theories floating around about the grid's purpose. Some say it might be a military training ground or maybe, Christine, UFOs.
ROMANS: I know. I'm going to go with irrigation, actually.
(LAUGHTER)
Desert, irrigation.
COSTELLO: I knew you would. ROMANS: There you go.
All right, out top stories when we return, including police evicting Occupy protesters overnight from New York's Zuccotti Park. Now, Mayor Mike Bloomberg is about to speak about it live. We're going to bring that to you.
It's about 56 minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
