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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

ISIS Suspect Faces Federal Judge; Dallas Deputy Tested for Ebola; Mistakes in Treatment of Thomas Eric Duncan.; Dispelling Ebola Myths; Family Sues Police After Window Smashing

Aired October 09, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: The war on ISIS front and center today. In Chicago, the 19-year-old American accused of conspiring to join the jihadist murderers facing a federal judge at this hour.

And also this hour, experts keep telling us this Ebola thing is under control. So how are we supposed to believe them when we see mistake after careless mistake by hospitals, EMS workers, cops and even cleanup crews who should be keeping us safe?

And then --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are being shot by the police. Oh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: As a simple traffic stop and it ended very badly. A teenager's camera rolling in the backseat as officers smash the window and brought out the Taser. The furious family's lawsuit against law enforcement and really what this story says about all of us right now.

Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Had he not attracted some very close attention from the FBI, Mohammed Hamzah Khan might be in Turkey right now or perhaps even in territory claimed or controlled by ISIS. Instead, however, the polite and studious 19-year-old from Bolingbrook, Illinois, is in federal court in Chicago trying to persuade a judge to let him go home. CNN's Ted Rowlands is outside the courthouse.

So get me up to speed on what's been happening during the hearing?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, it's a detention hearing which got -- going a little bit late. It's only been going about 15 minutes and there was a 10-minute delay here because there's a new lawyer. The Khan family has hired a local lawyer here, Tom Durkin (ph), who, by the way, also represents a young man, a 19-year- old, who was accused of trying to bomb a Chicago night club back in 2012. He's well versed in the federal system and specifically with terrorism issues. Khan has just been in front of this judge. The judge has just done

some basic clerical issues. She wanted the recess to review an article that was submitted in a brief. So they're just getting going right now. And at issue, what you said, was absolutely accurate, today this young man wants to go home, he wants to be out on bail. The federal government, the United States, says no, he should not be out on bail because he is a danger to society. So this judge is tasked with making that decision today. We expect the hearing to last about another half hour to an hour.

BANFIELD: And so, Ted, that's the critical part here, he's a danger to others and yet we know so little except for what's come out in these court documents and they are troubling without question. But can you give me a bit of a taste of what they found when they executed warrants on his home, his vehicle? What's the deal? The evidence they have against him so far?

ROWLANDS: Well, the most damming evidence, Ashleigh, frankly, is a letter that he allegedly wrote to his parents saying this is the reason that I am leaving you, leaving my home here in suburbia, to go join ISIS and fight in the Middle East. In that letter he said he couldn't stand the thought of being 19 now and paying taxes to the U.S. government and then that money being used to kill, quote, "his Muslim brothers and sisters."

He says that he was planning on staying forever. That's what he told allegedly investigators that arrested him at O'Hare. And in that same letter, he even invited his parents to come join him in the Islamic state. That evidence is the most crucial. We don't know the other evidence that was compiled before it got to the airport, but what we know from this criminal complaint that was filed last week, that letter really seems to dictate the mindset of this young man.

I talked to some people that worship with him at a mosque near his home and they said this kid was very religious, was a fixture at this mosque. In fact, one person said he knew the Koran backwards and forwards and that is why the people at that mosque were so shocked because he knew the religion. He knew it well and they were absolutely shocked that he would make such a drastic decision which gets no support from the people, as you can imagine, at his home mosque in Bolingbrook, Illinois.

BANFIELD: Well, certainly no support publicly, but you just never know at this point who is where. Ted Rowlands joining us live in Chicago. Thank you for that.

I want to bring in CNN legal analyst Mel Robbins - Mel Robbins and Danny Cevallos on this.

Guys, some of the other material in the documents just so troubling on their surface. And let's just say that. Doodles and drawings and pictures of an ISIS flag and words saying "come to jihad" and, you know, in Arabic, "Islamic state in Iraq and the (INAUDIBLE) here to stay. We are the lions of war. My nation, the dawn has emerged." Is that, though, Danny, material support? Because that's what he's charged with, attempt to provide material support. DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The question ultimately is when --

what is mere association and what is criminal material support under this federal statute, which is very broadly written. And the Supreme Court has endorsed this broad interpretation of criminalizing membership or providing material support. Now the statute speaks of providing things like personnel, expert assistance, money. And the question here is, what exactly has this 19-year-old defendant provided? And when you look at it, you could equally say, well, you know, doodles? I mean at what level are doodles evidence against me that will go -- that are probative of my material support? Of course you can, again, as broadly as this statute is worded, virtually anything of value can be considered material support and therefore criminal.

MEL ROBBINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's also important to note, though, Ashleigh, that it's not provided, it's attempting to provide.

BANFIELD: Attempting to provide.

ROBBINS: And in this case, it seems very clear, although the FBI affidavit specifically states that they're only giving enough information to establish probable cause so that they can have a complaint issued in this case. And what they say is that he fully intended to travel overseas to join ISIS. And when the FBI agents who met him at the airport mirandized him, spoke to him, he specifically said, I'm going to go over, my intent is to go and join ISIS, to provide either public service, police work, humanitarian aid, or a combat role. So he was clearly waiting till -

BANFIELD: It's pretty clear, right?

ROBBINS: Yes, it's pretty clear he was going to provide personnel support.

CEVALLOS: Well, that could fall within - yes, that could fall within an exception. I mean if you are going over to provide say religious support, anything that fall - that is statutorily accepted guess.

BANFIELD: That's an exception.

ROBBINS: Yes, but that's not what he said. What he said is, I might do one of all these things depending upon what ISIS asks me.

CEVALLOS: Exactly.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you something? A lot of people are tweeting about this and they're asking the question, and I think it's a good one, why only that charge? Why only attempt to provide material support? What ever happened to good old treason? Is that part of this? Is that a crazy question?

CEVALLOS: Well, when it comes to charge - you know, as a defense attorney, I'm always on the other side, and I've often wondered that too. But I think this is probably the easiest one to make stick. The problem with overcharging is that you have to meet the burden as to each of those statutes. So even though federal prosecutors aren't above lumping a bunch of charges on, they might as well stay with what they know to be safe.

BANFIELD: This may have come easier because it is more in tune with what's happening today.

ROBBINS: And you know it also carries 17.5 to 21.8 months in -- or years, rather, in prison.

BANFIELD: Yes.

ROBBINS: So this is no joke in terms of the charges for a kid that basically has bought a plane ticket.

BANFIELD: He could be in a - well, he didn't even buy it. That's the interesting thing. He didn't even buy it. Someone bought it for him. But he was acting on it.

I have to wrap it up there, but the conversation's not over on that.

Mel Robbins and Danny Cevallos, stick around, if you would, because we've got another big top story, the deadly Ebola virus in America. It's easy to become overwhelmed and confused by what you see and what you hear about how to protect against it and why some people look like they're not protecting at all against it. We're going to clear up some of the misconceptions and misinformation that's out there about things like how long can that virus live outside the human body on, say, I don't know, a staircase, a hand rail, the garbage container or the door knob. All the things we touch on a regular basis. That information coming your way.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: CDC Director Dr. Tom Frieden made a terrifying comparison this morning, saying that he has seen nothing like the Ebola crisis except for the AIDS epidemic of the '80s and '90s. Dr. Frieden is in Washington today meeting with leaders from the three west African countries most affected by Ebola.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, CDC DIRECTOR: I will say that in the 30s years I've been working in public health, the only things like this has been AIDS. And we have to work now so that this is not the world's next AIDS. We can do that I think exactly as was said by all of the three presidents. Speed is the most important variable here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: In the meantime, fears over Ebola are rising in the United States as Dallas County sheriff's deputies hospitalized after showing possible -- possible Ebola symptoms. Sergeant Michael Monnig was a first responder to the first Ebola case in the United States, entering an unsanitized, uncleaned apartment of Thomas Eric Duncan, the man who tragically died from that disease just yesterday. But Texas health officials claim that Monnig poses no risk of Ebola. CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen reports on how Monnig's unprotected presence in Duncan's apartment may be yet another misstep in this fight against Ebola.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. MICHAEL MONNIG, DALLAS COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: We did not receive any type of emergency equipment.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ebola fear escalating as Sergeant Michael Monnig, a deputy sheriff who initially entered into the apartment where Dallas Ebola patient Thomas Eric Duncan was staying before it was sanitized, started experiencing some Ebola-like symptoms Wednesday. Monnig told CNN affiliate WFAA Friday, he thought he may have come in contact with the virus.

MONNIG: Touched doors, touched lights to turn on the lights.

COHEN: According to the CDC, Ebola can't live on surfaces for more than just a few hours, and Monnig said he was in the apartment several days after Duncan had already been admitted to the hospital. A state health official saying, "we know he didn't have direct contact with Duncan and he doesn't have a fever. And in a situation like that, there is not a risk of Ebola."

MAYOR MAHER MASO, FRISCO, TEXAS: Over abundance of caution, we're taking several actions to make sure that the public health safety and welfare is protected.

COHEN: The deputy sheriff was transported to the same hospital where Duncan, the first person to be diagnosed with Ebola in the U.S., died early Wednesday.

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, CDC DIRECTOR: Today we are deeply saddened by the death of the patient in Dallas.

COHEN: Some community leaders are now questioning Duncan's care.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Their concern is that the same standard of identification and diagnosis and safe care now applied in Frisco did not apply to him.

COHEN: Admitted September 28th, Duncan lay sickened in his hospital bed at Texas Health Presbyterian for six days before doctors tried an experimental medication to fight Ebola. Compare that to NBC cameraman Ashoka Mukpo, also fighting the virus. He arrived at the University of Nebraska on Monday and right away doctors gave him an experimental anti-viral medication. Mukpo also received a blood donation from American survivor Dr. Kent Brantly. Blood donations from Ebola survivors are believed to provide antibodies to patients still fighting the disease. Duncan never received the donation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: And Elizabeth Cohen joins me live now from Dallas.

So I think a lot of people are very confused by hearing people very cavalierly announcing that Sergeant Monnig is just fine. He's not at risk. How can that be? COHEN: You know what, it's actually not so cavalier, Ashleigh. The

reason why Texas state health officials are saying this is that, one, he didn't have any contact with Duncan. In order to get Ebola, you need to have contact with the bodily fluids of a sick person or with a sick person themselves. Number two, he doesn't have a fever. A fever is really sort of the hallmark sign of Ebola. And so they really feel quite sure that he doesn't have Ebola.

Now, they're going to screen him for it and they're going to look at him for it, but it really just seems incredibly unlikely that he has Ebola.

BANFIELD: All right, Elizabeth Cohen live for us in Dallas, covering the story. You're doing a great job, Elizabeth. Thank you for all your very early mornings and late nights on this story.

It's obvious that the handling of the Ebola case in Dallas was botched in a lot of ways. Mistakes in treatment that may have cost Thomas Eric Duncan his life. Mistakes in the cleanup that may just have put other people at risk.

There is also a lot of misinformation out there about Ebola and just how you can catch it. Does it live outside the body for very long on surfaces? Or doesn't it?

Joining me to talk about the mistakes in Dallas and the myths surrounding this deadly disease and how one catches it, Dr. Alexander van Tulleken, an epidemiologist and senior fellow at Fordham University's Institute of International Humanitarian Affairs.

So, first of all, I want to replay if I can, Doctor, that interview that was conducted with Sergeant Michael Monnig and an interview right after that was conducted with his son, both of them downplaying any concerns that they have for his health.

Let's have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONNIG: We did not receive any type of emergency equipment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you all touch anything while you were in there?

MONNIG: Touched doors, touched lights to turn on lights.

That starts putting those question marks in your mind. You know, when you go home the next day, you start hearing that equipment is being quarantined or asked to be bagged up.

LOGAN MONNIG, SON OF SGT. MICHAEL MONNIG: We were told by federal officials, county officials, that he would have to come in direct contact with Duncan or bodily fluids and he did not.

He was in the apartment for maybe 30 minutes. Which we're told is nowhere like no chance to contract the virus. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK. Doctor, get me off the ledge because 30 minutes to me is a long time to be anywhere near any surfaces where someone who's just recently died of Ebola spent a lot of time very, very ill.

What's the reality about surfaces and how long that virus can stay alive?

DR. ALEXANDER VAN TULLEKEN, SENIOR FELLOW, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: So that will depend on what the surface is. It can live less long on metal than damp cloth, the humidity, the temperature, all kinds of other things.

The other thing, there's no dogma with regard to Ebola. We don't study this virus enough to be really confident at saying this is when it's dead, how long it can live.

This is very, very hard research to do because you have to put the virus all over a room and measure it at different times and see if it was infectious.

BANFIELD: To be as careful as one can when dealing with a deadly disease, you know, I've heard three hours, I've heard three days. And ultimately they're burning mattresses and sheets in Africa. So should we then here in America go to the top degree of security and say, three days or even get rid of all of that material inside the apartment?

VAN TULLEKEN: I think it's perfectly possible to clean that apartment. You don't have to burn everything in it.

The issue that this raises is, with hindsight, would I have wanted to go into that apartment, would Tom Frieden wanted to have gone into that apartment?

BANFIELD: Would you have?

VAN TULLEKEN: Absolutely not. Not because I'm terrified on Ebola. If I have to put $1,000 on him having Ebola I would put him not having it.

What you want to see is the public health authorities and authorities protecting their people and taking all the precautions. We've seen they haven't been doing that.

BANFIELD: Here's another issue that a lot of people have been confused about, cleaning up and removing material. Look at the video of the hazmat crews using a spray and look at all that mist blowing in the air.

By the way, there were neighbors who were outside, not far away, little kids outside, people coming in and out of their houses, and this is the cleanup as I understand of the, I hate to say this, sounds awful, but the vomit on the sidewalk.

That is not a hazmat worker clad in protective clothing when talking about deadly bodily fluids. That's how the vomit outside the apartment was cleaned up.

Is any of this acceptable or is this a catastrophic mistake some.

VAN TULLEKEN: So what -- the reason that it seems very bad to me is not because the risk of spreading Ebola around this way is very high. I suspect it's been out in the sun for a long time. The vomit will have dried. It's probably pretty safe to do that.

The problem is we don't absolutely know that. We're trying to contain one of the most deadly diseases in the world, and we don't seem to be doing a very good job.

What you want to see is almost everything being treated as a rehearsal for something serious. Get your first responders used to wearing protective gear, get protocols in place to make sure people don't enter without proper decisions being made, the relevant authorities consulted. None seems to be happening.

BANFIELD: I think what may -- both disturb me equally but bodily fluids like vomit you're saying the virus won't last that long say out in the sun?

VAN TULLEKEN: So what I think we know is that this is quite a -- this is not -- it's a delicate virus. It's -- a virus is not really alive, like a little package of chemicals, there's a strain of RNA, like DNA, and a few chemicals around it, and it doesn't live long. It can live a few hours in the right conditions, possibly a few days.

BANFIELD: It seems weird it's just spreading like wildfire when such a delicate virus and dies out in the sun.

VAN TULLEKEN: So in Africa you're dealing with people untreated, unisolated and therefore will have high loads of virus shedding in bodily fluids rapidly. It's not spreading -- that's why it's spreading rapidly in west Africa. Not spreading rapidly in America. We are exposing people when we don't need to be.

BANFIELD: Third, I want to talk about the transport of patients. We've talked about the surfaces, the cleanup, the video of Dr. Kent Brantley arriving in the United States and heading into Emory Hospital for treatment.

He is fully hazmat. He's the second person on the left walking in, being aided as he walks in on his own, but completely suited up, as is the caregiver coming out of the ambulance.

There is the picture of Sergeant Monnig, being brought into the hospital, he's wearing what looks like an exam gown, surgical mask, gloves, hat, but he's got bare legs and, I mean, we've all heard that sweat is a bodily fluid.

I'm not sure I understand the logic in the differences between the transport of these two potential -- again he's a potential victim -- effectively, he's not a confirmed case, but could have been a case.

VAN TULLEKEN: That's -- the logic is right there. One of them we absolutely knew had Ebola and gets treated in that way and then you try and risk stratify people. So if we suspect someone of having Ebola in a hospital, you don't put them in a hazmat suit.

You isolate them in a negative pressure room or room on their own and get people to barrier them with gowns and gloves. And the CDC is not recommending hazmat suits for anyone carrying the Ebola.

That wasn't what the Spanish --

BANFIELD: But what's the difference? I hate to say this. What is the difference between someone who is suspected of having Ebola -- we don't know yet -- and someone who does, ultimately when you could catch it, if they have it?

VAN TULLEKEN: I think this --

BANFIELD: Is this a crazy question? It just feels like this would be natural.

VAN TULLEKEN: So I think this -- so I think, once you suspect that he's got Ebola, it's reasonable to transport him in exactly the same way you transported the other people who you definitely knew had Ebola.

In terms of the nursing and the hazmat suits, I think he is actually fairly well protected from shedding virus. He hasn't got florid symptoms, and so the mask, the gown is probably adequate protection.

But you're right. The standard is different, and the concern is -- part of the concern is, can you get people into hazmat suit or move him more quickly?

A few other pragmatic considerations, but generally it does not seem there is a clear set of protocols to be followed.

BANFIELD: Very confusing when you're looking at all these pictures.

Dr. van Tulleken, you're just full of great information and really appreciate that. Thank you so much.

And by the way, if you have other questions, by all means, feel free to tweet us at #EbolaQandA. We've been answering a lot of your questions, and many of you have some very, very good ones, given the situation that's arisen.

And I also want to take you to another one of our top stories, the fallout from that police stop that led to a window being smashed, a man being tased, all caught on tape because children were in the back seat, one of them actually doing the filming.

What was it like to be in that car? The family involved speaks out to CNN. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: When we first showed you video of police officers in Hammond, Indiana, smashing a window and tasering the passenger in the front seat, it stirred up a huge debate not just here with our panel on our program but online as well.

Remember, this happened on September 24th after a routine traffic stop for a seatbelt violation. Now the family is suing the city, though, and suing the local police. They allege excessive force in this instance.

And I want you to see that moment for yourself, once again, before we go any further in this discussion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Going to get shot by the police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh! Damn!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It's -- without question, this is hard to watch, whenever you hear children crying like that and people who fear each other, and that's a big part of this because both sides said that they had fear for their safety in this incident on that afternoon. Both sides say it.

Two children were in the back seat of the vehicle, and they are also named in the lawsuit.

The whole family talked to Don Lemon last night to tell us what happened from their point of view.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA MAHONE, SUING HAMMOND POLICE DEPARTMENT: He went from the left to the right. I didn't know which way to pull over. I said, "Oh, my God, he's pulling me over like I just robbed a bank."

And then when he came to the car -- to the side of the car -- and he asked me for my identification, he was pacing. He was moving around. He was making frowns on his face.

And I also told him, I said can you please just give -- I asked him -- why was I being pulled over. He told me I wasn't being pulled over because of a seatbelt. I didn't my seatbelt on.

I said, can you please give me my seatbelt ticket because my mom is at the hospital, and I have to see her because she's dying.

And he said, yes, I'll give it to you as soon as I get the passenger's identification.

JAMAL JONES, TASERED BY POLICE: After he asked me for my i.d., I didn't have it on me. And I told him I have to get it out of my book bag that's in the back of the car, so I asked my stepson to get my book bag from the back.

I better get the ticket out so I can show it to him for my information. Once I got my ticket out of my book bag, he didn't want to receive it at that moment.

MAHONE: He gave me the ticket, and I passed it out of the sunroof window. And they didn't want it. They asked -- they said they just wanted us to get out of the car.

Now, when we said, no, we was not getting out of the car, that's when he went and got the spikes and put it under the tires. So I'm really nervous at this point. He putting -- why are you putting spikes under my tires? I never not once moved that vehicle.

JONES: Once they asked my lady to get out of the vehicle, and they had their weapons drawn, she wasn't going to get out of the vehicle. I felt harm on my family, so I wasn't going to leave my family out of the car, and leave them in the car when they have their weapons drawn. I felt to protect my family I would stay in the vehicle.

JOSEPH IVY, LISA MAHONE'S SON: I started videotaping it because I knew they was doing wrong, then when the window shattered after he hit it, I felt -- I was scared, but that's what really gave me the courage to keep videotaping.