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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

President Obama Dedicates Kennedy Institute; Latest on the Invesitgation of the Germanwings Co-pilot; Discussion of the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired March 30, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But in his personal dealings he answered Edmund Randolph's call to keep the senate a place to restrain if possible the fury of democracy.

I did not know Ted as long as some of the speakers here today but he was my friend. I owe him a lot. And as far as I could tell, it was never ideology that compelled him. Except in so far as ideology said you should help people, that you should have a life in purpose, that you should be empathetic, to be able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and see through their eyes. This tirelessness, this restlessness, they were rooted in his experience.

By the age of 12 he was a member of a Gold Star family. By 36, two of his brothers were stolen from him in the most tragic public of ways. By 41, he nearly lost a beloved child of cancer. And that made suffering something he knew and it made him more alive to the suffering of others.

While he son is sleeping after treatment, Ted would wonder the halls of the hospital, meet other parents, keeping vigilant over their own children. They were parents terrified of what would happen when they couldn't afford the next treatment. Parents working out what they could sell or borrow or mortgage just to make it a few more months, and then if they had to bargain with God for the rest.

There in the quiet night, working people of modest means, they're one of the most powerful men in the world, share the same intimate immediate sense of helplessness. He didn't see them as some abstraction. He knew them. He felt them. Their pain was his. As much as they might be separated by wealth and fame and those families would be at the heart of Ted's bashers. This might be young immigrant he would see himself in that, that child.

They were his cause, the sick child who couldn't see a doctor, the young soldier sent to battle without armor. The citizen denied her rights because of what she looked like or where she came from or who she loves.

He quietly attended as many military funerals in Massachusetts as he could for those who fell in Iraq and Afghanistan. He called and wrote each one of the 177 families in this commonwealth who lost a loved one on 9/11 and he took them salient and played with their children, not just in the days after but every year after.

His life's work was not the champion most would wealth or power or connections, they already had enough representation. It was to give voice to the people who wrote and called him from every state desperate for somebody who might listen and help. It was about what he could do for others. That's why he take his hearings to hospitals and rural towns and inner cities and pushed people out of their comfort zones including his colleagues because he had pushed himself out of his comfort zone, and he tried to instill in his colleagues that same sense of empathy. Even if they called him as one did wrong at the top of his lungs, even if they might disagree with them 99 percent of the time. Because who knew what might happen with that other 1 percent.

[12:35:11] Orrin Hatch was sent to Washington in part because he promised to fight Ted Kennedy and they fought a lot. One was a conservative Mormon from Utah after all, the other one was, well, Ted Kennedy. But once they got to know one another, they discovered certain things in common. It was about faith, the soft spot for healthcare, very fine singing voices.

In 1986 when republicans controlled the senate, Orrin held the first hearing on the AIDS epidemic even hugging an AIDS patient, an incredible and very important gesture at that time.

The next year, Ted took over the committee and continued what Orrin started. When Orrin's father passed away, Ted was one of the first call. It was over dinner at Ted's house one night that they decided to try and ensure the 10 million children who didn't have access to healthcare.

As that debate hit roadblocks in congress as apparently debates over healthcare tend to do. Ted would have his chief of staff serenade Orrin to court his support. When hearings didn't go Ted's way, he might pop on a cigar to annoy Orrin who destain smoking. When they didn't go Orrin's way, he might threaten to call Ted's sister ewness.

And when it came time to find a way to pay for the children's health insurance health insurance program that they together had devised, Ted past. Offering a tobacco tax and asking, "Are you for Joe Camel and the Marlboro man or millions of children who lack adequate healthcare?" That's the kind of friendship unique to the senate calling the minds what John Calhoun once said of Henry Clay. I don't like Clay. He is a bad man, an impostor, a creator of wicked schemes. I wouldn't speak to him but by God I love him.

So sure, Orrin Hatch once called Ted one of the major dangers to the country but he also stood up at a gathering in Ted's last months and said, "I'm asking you all to pray for Ted Kennedy."

The point is we can fight on almost everything or we can come together on some things and those some things can mean everything to a whole lot of people. It was common ground that led Ted and Orrin to forge a compromise that covered millions of kids with healthcare. It was common ground rooted in the plight of loved ones that led Ted and Chuck Grassley to cover kids with disabilities that led Ted and Pete Domenici to fight for equal rights for Americans with a mental illness.

Common ground, not rooted in abstractions as stubborn rigid ideologies but shared experience that led Ted and John McCain to work on a patient's bill of rights and to work to forge a smarter more just immigration system, a common desire to fix what's broken, the willingness to compromise in pursuit of a larger goal, a personal relationship that lets you fight like heck on one issue and shake hands on the next, not through just cajoling or horse trading or serenades, but through Ted's brand of friendship and kindness and humor and grace.

What binds us together across our differences in religion or politics or economic theory Ted wrote in his memoirs, is all we share as human beings. The wonder that we experience when look at the night sky, the gratitude that we know when we feel the heat of the sun, the sense of humor in the face of the unbearable and the persistence of suffering. And one thing more, the capacity to reach across our differences to offer a hand of healing.

[12:40:07] For all the challenges of the changing world, for all the imperfections of our democracy, the capacity to reach across our differences is something that's entirely up to us. May we all in our own lives set an example for the kids who enter these doors and exit with higher expectations for their country. May we all remember the times this American family has challenged us to ask what we can do, to dream and say "Why not" to seek a cause that endures and sail against the wind in is pursuit and live our lives with that heightened sense of purpose.

Thank you. May God bless you. May he continue to bless this country we love. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: The President wrapping up his speech in Boston. Listen, if there were ever a bipartisan thing, it's educating kids and helping people understand governance and that is effectively what the Edward M. Kennedy Institute for the United States Senate is all about, just being dedicated. Look at those, the list of VIPs, the Vice President, Michelle Obama is somewhere in the midst as well, congressmen, ex congressmen, just a whole host of those who standby this terrific dedication.

This is something where kids from all across America are going to be able to come in and see replicas of Ted Kennedy's senate office that can hold mock debates on a senate floor, a replica of the senate floor. It's right next to JFK Library so you can get a two for there. And he do fantastic, because I was a real nerd when it came to ask the kid. I love doing, you know, model United Nations, model parliaments from Canada but a model congress, I mean what an awesome opportunity for learning for all kids across the country.

So there you go, dedicated today, it officially opens to the public tomorrow. So, if you're in Boston, it's a great thing to do.

I have a couple of things I want to bring to your attention. While the President was speaking, our Pamela Brown, our justice correspondent has been hard at work in Germany, working for sources on some of these new developments with regard to the crash of the Germanwings flight 9525 and here has what we have learned about this co-pilot.

Apparently, he did go to an eye doctor. He asked his eye doctor if there was something wrong with his eyes. Our Pamela Brown source a European government official who is familiar with this investigation said that this co-pilot said he was not seeing as he should but the doctor told him it was psychosomatic. There's nothing wrong with his eyes. It was all in his head. It's pretty remarkable development in this case.

Then apparently Lubitz told to different doctor and this doctor is described as a neuropsychologist by our source here that he was just too stressed with work, that work was just too much for him, too stressful. There's also some information now from our Pamela Brown via this European government official regarding this suicidal tendencies that has come to light.

Apparently, the tendencies -- this co-pilot never gave any indication to the second doctor that he visited that he was suicidal, but investigators are the ones who say they believe he was given what transpire. You can make of that what you will.

But here is something else that is very critical. There are so many reports about a girlfriend, about a pregnancy, about a breakup, about possibly getting married or plans to get married. And Pamela Brown's source in Europe is now saying there were no personal problems with his girlfriend that have surfaced thus far. This official saying it is all rumors, rumors that she was pregnant. It is rumors that she was breaking up or that he was breaking up, rumors that he was set to get married.

Investigators according to Pamela Brown's source say they have not found anything to substantiate those reports.

I want to bring in our Mary Schiavo who has been so critical as CNN Aviation Analyst, a former Inspector General of the United States Department of Transportation. One of the timeline issues that has broken, Mary, talks about the loud metallic banging on the cockpit door presumably the captain trying to break down the cockpit door. Some of those tabloid reports have gone as far as to say it's an axe, it was a crowbar, some say it might have been the drink cart. Any of those things, what would be possible, what could a pilot use that sounds metallic to try to break down that door? What could be onboard a plane like that Mary?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: It could be any of those things. Now of course in the United States we have rules about passengers bringing tools onboard and they're prohibited. Those kinds of item that is working tools like a crowbar, you know, saw any type that would have had to have been check.

But in Germany they have different rules and you can have a flight ax that the flight attendants can have access to under German rules, and of course the drink cart and the drink cart is what the passengers on United Flight 93 used way back on September 11, 2011, they used the drink cart to batter down the door into the cockpit. Of course they have different cockpit doors now, not the same.

[12:45:16] But there was another recent one right after September 11, 2001 and that timeframe where the pilot used the flight ax inside the cockpit door to keep an intruder out. So, it could have been anyone of those items.

BANFIELD: All right, Mary Schiavo with some insight there. Thank you for that and our Pamela Brown again with those remarkable developments, CNN continuing to follow this. We're going to bring you more as the day progresses as well.

And then there is this, a brand new law signed into law by the governor of Indiana, a religious freedom bill. That sounds great. You're free to practice your religion and nobody can burden you with theirs. But what about those who say it is just a form of discrimination? The governor says not so. But then, who are all those people behind him? Aren't some of them anti-gay marriage and is this a discriminatory bill? That's next.

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BANFIELD: Is it religious freedom or is it discrimination? An uproar over Indiana becoming the 20th state to enact the law called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, a law similar actually to a federal law that congress passed back in 1993. This law says a governmental entity may not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule by the government effectively and that a person can use the law as a defense, in suing (ph) court. Now a lot of people support he measure, a lot of people don't. It's getting a lot of blow back.

[12:50:24] Big businesses like Apple, if CEO Tim Cook decrying this law and his list holding up expansion in the state of big business and building plan that's on the table now. Talk of boycotting from former NBA grade and T.V. sport panel Charles Barkley, in cities like San Francisco in Seattle, banning city funded travel to the state of Indiana and reviewing contracts with firms that do business in the State of Indiana.

There might be protest that the final four championship this weekend the Indianapolis. So, there's a question does the law allow a business owner because of that business owners religion to deny services to individuals who might just be gay or perhaps an interracial relationship.

Why should we listen to what Governor Mike Pence said on ABC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes or no, if a florist in Indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in Indiana?

GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: George, this is where this debate has gone with misinformation and frankly...

STEPHANOPOULOS: It's just a question sir, yes or no?

PENCE: Well there's been shameless rhetoric about my state and about this law and about its intention all over the internet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, earlier today, just a little earlier on, an Indiana democratic group of lawmakers said that they are moving to repeal that law or amend it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT PELATH, (D) INDIANA HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Let's not forget that in both houses, democrats offered language that might have granted some clarifications in advance. And this is -- this was before this whole thing blowup into a national embarrassment.

We said, look if it's not about discrimination prove it, by adapting this amendment or adapting that amendment, make it clear it's not about discrimination. Have they done that and have they not just been slapped aside just out of partisan instincts. We would've been at the spot right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK, so for their part the republicans in the house as well and Joey Jackson., you're going to speak to this and said that they're going to work on a fix. They're going to work on a fix to this problem. But when we press and press and press what kind of fix are you talking about, the governor Mike Pence had said that fix is not going to be putting gays, lesbians, sexual identity as a...

JOEY JACKSON HLN LEGAL ANALYST: That's what he says.

BANFIELD: ... protected class, which by the way could be the fantasy into all of these.

JACKSON: It's certainly could. Now, just backing up just a little bit because you mentioned that the Federal Government certainly enacted a measure in 1993, similar not the same this is vastly different because it's more expensive.

Momentarily we'll good into that. The second issue was this is the 20th state, why are people going crazy about Indiana again because it's similar too, but this one is much expensive. Other point general then will be specific, the concern is that on the backdrop of Indiana going all out to bar and otherwise prevent same sex marriages this is seen, seen as an end around that in order to have this measure to say "Hey, based on my religious freedoms I'll do what I think is proper and appropriate. And then proper and appropriate means not otherwise supporting people who are of the same sex then I don't have to write -- then I don't have to do that, that's one big issue.

The second big thing doubt telling (ph) into what you've said sexual orientation can fix this. Indiana presently does not recognize sexual orientation as a protective class. As a result of that the concern is, that this bill can be used for discriminatory purposes.

Moving on, looking at specific measures of the bill Ashleigh, if you look at even how religion is defined. Section 5, just briefly is using the (inaudible) of religion includes any exercise of religion. Now, here's where it get spicy. Whether or not, compelled by or center to a system of religious belief. So, what is that mean?

BANFIELD: Does that effectively mean, I might have a religion whereby I just do not like blue ties. And Joey Jackson you are wearing a blue tie and it is against my religion out of my store.

JACKSON: Now, listen, now back in expensive view, very expensive view but that's the concern precisely that people have. If it's not centrable to -- center to a religious principle that I have. But, you know, it sort of related to another principle can I now use this for discriminatory purposes.

And then onward Ashleigh, and not to get (inaudible), but if you look at Section 7 how it defines a person, a person is defined as anybody. So...

BANFIELD: Companies or group, corporations....

JACKSON: Association....

BANFIELD: People who like each other.

JACKSON: 100 percent. So, now as a florist again coming to that example could I say, I'm not serving that wedding, I'm not, you know, bakery, I'm not making that cake. That's the underlying concern.

BANFIELD: So, Brian Bosma is the speaker of the Indiana house. And he is within that group of Republican say that they're working on a fix. Although not specified what kind of fix you're possibly talking about when your governor said we're not going to put to protect the class here for gays and lesbians.

[12:55:08] But he, well we had them all planned to go live on our program, the president have a live event. So, unfortunately he couldn't wait for us. But we did get him on tape and I want you to hear what he'd have to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BRIAN BOSMA, (R) INDIANA HOUSE SPEAKER: It still requires a government action to infringe those religious freedoms. So, all that section says, is the government doesn't have to be a party to the litigation. But it still requires uniformly requires a government regulation that over burden someone's religious freedom. So, that is not it's the same standard as exist in 30 other states.

Now, the specter has been raised that it will be deny -- allowed the denial of services to kind class of closures. So, the legislative fix we're looking at, the clarification is to specifically say no, it doesn't, it can't be raised as...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That it denied because I did look...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That that gets a little tricky Joey Jackson, when he's talking about the actual fix.

JACKSON: Right.

BANFIELD: They're talking about clarification, talking about the fix, they're talking about laws that need to clarify. Does it make sense to you?

JACKSON: Just well -- very briefly it does and it doesn't and here's how it could make sense, if you add sexual orientation, the governor came out and he said and again I'm not approaching this from a political perspective above my pay grade.

But the governor did save Indiana that Barack Obama supportives such a measure in Illinois when he was senator. However Illinois has a sexual orientation protection.

BANFIELD: Yeah, yeah.

JACKSON: So, if they would do that and they would define what religion means and they would define a person not so broadly perhaps it can have lives.

BANFIELD: We'd sure like to have a Mr. Bosma -- Speaker Bosma back in the program at some point and the other republican to clarify what exactly that means because we are all waiting to find out what happens in Indiana.

Joey Jackson thank you for that, I know it was very last minute, thank you so much. And thank you everyone for watching I'm sure appreciate you being with us.

Stay tuned my colleague Wolf Blitzer takes over after a quick break.

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