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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

New Salacious Details Emerge As Manhunt For Two Escaped Convicts Continues; Discussion Over Rachel Dolezal's Racial Identity Continues. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired June 16, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:11] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello everyone and welcome to Legal View. I'm Ashleigh Banfield.

The manhunt has dominated the headlines for days and just when you thought the New York prison break story could not get anymore salacious, it has.

New details about the relationship between the prison tailor and the two convicted killer, murderers, a source of detailed knowledge of the investigation says Joyce Mitchell was indeed having a sexual relationship with Richard Matt. And before that, she was investigated for having an inappropriate relationship with David Sweat.

They are the two who are on the run which leads us to this. The same source who told us that Matt and Sweat had a plan to kill Mitchell's husband who worked in the same tailoring as his wife. We don't know how much Mitchell actually knew about the plan but we know this. Mitchell in her stripes had been held at the Clinton County Jail in a 6 by 9 cell with round the clock supervision. An officer is sitting in the doorway of her cell documenting what she is doing every 30 minutes.

In the meantime they search for Matt and Sweat has gone cold since last week. They could be in the woods near the prison or they could be long gone maybe even in Mexico by now, that's the word from officials who are on the haunt.

Alexandra Field is in West Plattsburgh, New York where the hunt has been focused. So why did they feel that hunters gone cold and is there any hope that they're going to find these two murders?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't think that anyone here we can see that they have lost hope about finding these two convicted killers on the loose but there is the reality of this situations which is that law enforcement officials have been saying they have not seen a clear sign to indicate that they in the immediate area that is being searched.

Since some time last week when those blood hounds hit on that scent, when the wrapper was found, when some tracks were found which were believe to be tied to the fugitives. You've got people who are exercising every resource that they have, deploying every resource they have to haunt for these two men but there is a reality and there is a realization of surfacing among some of the searchers which is to say that yes it is possible they could still be in this area where they have focused but it is also possible actually that they could be somewhere else.

Joyce Mitchell has of course been a key part of this investigation. She is the seamstress who is behind bars this morning charged with helping these two men make their escape plans.

Does she have more information she can provide of where they could be now? Well it's quite possible but she doesn't. Here is what the Clinton County Sheriff had to say.

SHERIFF DAVID FAVRO, CLINTON COUNTY, NEW YORK: I'd honestly don't think that she was Plan A, there's been a lot of people that said, "Well she didn't show up and got cold feet they probably went to a plan B".

I think she was Plan B and I think they didn't put as much time and effort into such an elaborative escape and taken so long to plot this together without getting some assistance and having a good solid plan for once they did get to freedom.

FIELD: This morning Joyce Mitchell had her first visitor at the Clinching County jail, her husband Lyle Mitchell. I'm told by the Sheriff that Lyle Mitchell is spending hour with his wife. It was a non-contact visit they were separated by a glass wall but Ashleigh this is a private conversation, not monitored. And the Sheriff has said the observation was that she appeared to be comforted by the visit and he seemed to be supportive of his wife.

BANFIELD: All right, our Alexandra Field in the rain forest which can't be good if those prisoners are up their certainly for them maybe better for those who are on a haunt for them. Alexandra Field thank you.

While Joyce Mitchell is sitting now behind bars in the same place those two murderers were, the authorities are themselves going door to door today in Denmark, New York and they're looking for those two convicted murderers who may likely have manipulated her into helping them.

Our affiliate, TWC News, Binghamton spoke exclusively with David Sweat's family. His family, his mother says that he's aggressive behavior started by age nine and by the time he was a teenager they lost contact. They did keep in touch though through letters but she told TWC News that she had no idea that he plan to escape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA SWEAT: He never said nothing about taking off or anything and then all of the sudden the last two months he quit writing. I've been to a lot with him. And it wasn't good. And that's why I'm the way I am because of him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:05:01] BANFIELD: Again, that interview with David Sweat's mother. I want to bring in Gary Cornelius, the author of the Art of the Con: Avoiding Offender Manipulation. He's a retired corrections officer with nearly three decade of experience.

It's just great of you to join us, Gary. Thank you so much for this. I want to clear off the bed, no one is 100 percent certain that this woman was a victim here and completely manipulated. She certainly did do something for people most people wouldn't help.

I want to get your take on it with all of your background, certainly in inmate manipulation.

GARY CORNELIUS, AUTHOR OF THE ART OF THE CON: AVOIDING OFFENDER MANIPULATION: Yes, thanks for having me on.

No one is immune from inmate manipulation. You can go in to a prisoner or a jail and say, "I'm too smart for them, it will never happen to me," but the -- the things that we hear, we hear that while they have 24/7 to think about the ways to fool people, that is true. They have nothing but time to plot these things. That is true.

I read one account where this relationship with one of the inmates with Mrs. Mitchell could have started two years ago in 2013. They will be patient and she made the choice to -- allegedly made the choice to help them and she is charged with. And if convicted, she has to deal with the consequences of her action.

But veterans, what we call rookies, newbies, civilians, sworn staff, no one is immune to the inmate manipulatives.

BANFIELD: So, Gary, I understand where you're coming from. I understand the notion that inmate can be manipulative and certainly at least I believe Matt, Mr. Matt was extremely manipulative especially with women as some witnesses have attested.

But the murder plot that has now come to light, this just goes beyond all understanding of your science. How someone could be manipulative beyond just letting them out. But then going in to destroy her life that she knows and murdering her husband.

CORNELIUS: Well, good question. And the problem is when you fall victim to an inmate manipulator con man, or whatever, your world has changed. You were not in your world. I mean, where outside the prison walls where things are on the moral plain, you do the right thing, you pay your bills, you're faithful to your family and so forth.

You are in the inmate's world. And when you go into the inmate's world, anything can happen.

One of the things that I learned from 27 years of working in a jail with inmates, is nothing surprises me. Nothing with these -- with inmates. And when you enter their world, they could change their plans. They could decide that she is not useful or she might, say -- she might suggest to them that she is better off with them and her family and who knows where that will go. BANFIELD: Can I ask you about the epiphany that she said, according to authorities who have spoken with CNN, the epiphany that she says she had which was, "I couldn't do this to my family."

Ultimately, that notion that she perhaps might not have been as trustworthy as they would have wanted, do you believe the authorities when they say, "They, without question, had a Plan B," given the woman they were working with?

CORNELIUS: It's possible. And the epiphany, the plan B is possible.

Like I said, nothing surprises you when you're working with inmates. I mean, you walk home your shift to the jail and you go," Wow," you know and nothing surprises you. It is possible. I am following the news reports on as you are.

But the epiphany that she had where she said I could not hurt my fam -- reportedly she said I could not hurt my family. Yeah, there have been cases and when I teach in service, I discussed cases where a staff is being manipulated by inmates and then they wake up and they go, "Whoa, I'm in this hole so deep, I better start trying to find a way out of it." That might have been the case for her.

She thought the damage to her family, her husband and her son, the community where she lives, the people she worked with, and she might have said, "Whoa, I can't go on with this and I'd better do the right thing now."

BANFIELD: I have a lot of people shaking their heads and scratching their heads with at the same time. Gary Cornelius, good of you to talk to us. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.

CORNELIUS: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, an NAACP leader who was outed as white has a lot of explaining to do and she is plainly talking. But guess who else is talking. Her parents.

[12:09:42] We've got the interview with them coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Rachel Dolezal the woman who resigned of the NAACP leader after she was exposed as a white woman, is now breaking her silence. This morning Dolezal telling NBC's Matt Lauer, "I identify as black."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Are you an African-American woman?

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FORMER NAACP LEADER: I identify as black.

LAUER: You identify as black, let me put a picture of a view in your early 20s though and when you see this picture, is this an African- American woman? Or is that a Caucasian Woman?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: That's not I my early 20s, but...

LAUER: That's a little younger I guess, yeah.

RACHEL DOLEZAL: I was just 16 in that girl.

LAUER: Is she a Caucasian woman or an African-American woman?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: I would say that visibly, she will be identified as white, by people who see her.

LAUER: But at the time, were you identifying yourself as African- American?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: In that picture, during that time, no.

LAUER: Your parents were asked this question this week and they didn't have any trouble answering it. And here's what they said, "She's clearly our birth daughter and were clearly Caucasian. That's just the fact." Your father went on to say, "She's a very talented woman doing work she believes in, why can't she do that as a Caucasian woman which is what she is."

How do you answer that question?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: Well, first of all, I really don't see why they're in such a rush to white wash some of the work that I have done and who I am and how I've identified. And it goes back to a very early age with my self identification with the black experience, as a very young child.

LAUER: When did it start?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: I would say, about five years old.

LAUER: You began identifying yourself as African-American?

RACHEL DOLEZAL: I was drawing self portraits with the brown crayon instead of the peach crayon and the black, you know, black curly hair and, you know, yeah, that was how I was portraying myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12: 15:05] BANFIELD: That was Rachel Dolezal this morning and this afternoon is Rachel's parents, Larry and Ruthanne joining me live now out from Troy, Montana, thank you so much Ms. And Mr. Dolezal for being with me.

I wanted to just ask if that last point that Rachel made with Matt Lauer that she began again identifying as black as early as five years old, drawing herself with the brown crayon instead of the pink crayon. Do you have any memories of that?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL, MOTHER OF RACHEL ANNE DOLEZAL: No we do not.

BANFIELD: Anything even slightly that might indicate she felt different back when she was say five, six, seven in her very young age.

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: Rachel was like, we were interested in ethnicity and diversity and we had many friends in our circles that were of different ethnicities, but she did not ever refer to herself or draw pictures or anything that indicated she thought of herself as black.

BANFIELD: Had she had many experiences other than friends of yours? I know you've said made travels as a family to African countries. Had she done that in her early years, for instance the years that she was referring to in the interview?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL, FATHER OF RACHEL ANNE DOLEZAL: No.

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: No. Rachel was never in Africa with us.

BANFIELD: So, is their any explanation that you can think of having -- I'm assuming having watched her appearance this morning on the Today Show. Is there any explanation that you can give to her answers that she gave to Matt Lauer?

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: She's still dodging the question about acknowledging who she is in reality.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: How would you respond if I were to suggest that I'm now identifying as an African American man. I am now a black man because I adapted four African-American children. I...

BANFIELD: Well I -- it's all very perplexing I think to so many of us and I would think that it would be the most perplexing to the people who had been closest to her at one time of life, you. And I just wonder how you felt watching that interview this morning. . RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: It was disturbing because the false statements continue. And as mush as we're concerned with Rachel's identity issues, we are also concerned with her integrity issues.

BANFIELD: So she claims that you're trying to -- and I'll just you know, quote her. "I don't see why they, meaning her parents, you, are in such a rush to white wash some of the work I have done and who I am and how I have identified." Do you see yourselves as having somehow sorted what she's doing and who she feels she is?

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: No. We were contacted about a week ago by the Coeur d'Alene Press asking if we could verify Rachel's ethnicity and we responded, "Well, we can tell you that we are her birth parents. And her ethnicity background is European descent Caucasian, primarily Czech and German."

BANFIELD: So can I ask you, did you expect to hear any sort of apologies this morning from Rachel when she was speaking to Matt Lauer, apologies for the lies that she's told because frankly she has lied. It's not just misrepresenting, it's not just correcting the record when those assumed she was either biracial or African-American or black. It was blatant lie.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: That's exactly how we see it, unfortunately. RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: And yes, we hope that she will come to terms with truth and reality and she will make an apology.

BANFIELD: Have you had any issues with your other children, her four younger -- much younger black siblings because they also have gone public and they have varying views of what's going on. Have you as a family come to terms with being in the spotlight like this and honestly having her as a national punch line it seems.

RUTHANNE DOLEZAL: Well our intention has never been to harm Rachel. All we have done was to respond to the press when they initiated questions.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: Yes, and no. I guess we could ask you, how would you respond if you receive similar questions? Would you tell the truth? Would you support the lies? Would you hang up or say no comment?

BANFIELD: Well I can imagine the position that you're in. I think it's uncomfortable for a lot of people and I'm sure it's terribly uncomfortable for you as well. I do appreciate you taking a time to speak with us today.

LAWRENCE DOLEZAL: Thank you very much.

BANFIELD: Lawrence and Ruthanne Dolezal, the parents of Rachel Dolezal speaking out today live from Troy, Montana.

[12:19:58] Ms. Dolezal's explanation about her race with the controversy perhaps an even a more complicated state. Were they answers that people expected? Did it confuse people further? We're going to get some answers to that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Want to update that breaking news you may have heard from CNN's Barbara Starr about 20 minutes ago, we now have the official all clear at Philadelphia naval station that had been evacuated over a terrorist threat. Pretty serious too going up to threat level Charlie, second highest level. So all clear in Philadelphia that's the official word now.

After resigning, Spokane's former and NAACP leader Rachel Dolezal is breaking her silence and confronting allegations this morning on NBC's Today Show that she has been pretending to be African-American and joining to talk about whether Dolezal have answered her critics, is culture critic and writer Michaela Davis along with CNN's political commentator Charles Blow.

I wanted to get your take after watching the interview; did you get the answers that you were looking for? Did you get any resolution? Is there more clarity?

MICHAELA DAVIS, CULTURE CRITIC AND WRITER: No more clarity, no more understanding, no more -- except -- no, I think I understand that is a little bit more dilution all that I thought, right? The fact that she didn't address her parents, the fact that she didn't address all the pain and confusion that she is cost Black America to respond to this, I think that her not addressing the -- Howard University laws suit as a white women directly was disturbing too.

I think she is more -- she has left us with more questions and not really prepared. I felt dooped again by her, you know, coming out and not giving us any thing and not really answering any thing directly. It's very disturbing...

[12:25:10] BANFIELD: Did anyone expects an apology today?

DAVIS: I did.

BANFIELD: You did. You were expecting an apology?

DAVIS: I totally do. I mean, she's had days to watch up and we just watched her parents. They looked tired. They looked in pain. You see (inaudible) her brother saying that, you know, they're basically come home, get help, get healed. You know, the stories about her being in a teepee and...

BANFIELD: But you know, we have to get -- we have not a separate (ph) reaction and I don't think it's because you're black and I'm white. I think it's because we see things different ways perhaps, but I saw a woman who is very uncomfortable with who she was and needed something else to fulfill her life.

Granted she took it and she lied about it but ultimately I didn't feel for her as someone who just identified in a more comfortable is my point.

CHARLES BLOW, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And that maybe true, she may in fact identify and feel more comfortable in the kind of culture construct of blackness, right? But were you -- the sympathy for sure is that it is still an exercise and privilege, right?

BANFIELD: Absolutely.

BLOW: Because in America, we have traditionally and historically defined whiteness incredibly merriness (ph) in order to protect it from delusion. That we didn't want to delude it. And so therefore the black experience in America is that we have been the kind of collecting pool for everybody who was not 100 percent white. If you are lineage had any blackness, any whatsoever.

BANFIELD: Any drop.

BLOW: Within one drop...

BANFIELD: One little drop of...

BLOW: ... then you were considered black and that was not, not just a kind of cultural construct that was enforced by law, that was enforced by the police, that was enforced by courts including the Supreme Court. And if were a person like Rachel has the privilege to present and perform blackness because we are conditioned in America to accept those presentations, however, a person who looks like me no matter how much light and cream I might use no matter if I grew this hair out and straightened it...

BANFIELD: You can't do it.

BLOW: ... you know, even if I did what Sammy Sosa has done, Sammy Sosa will still never be able to fully present as a white person and because it doesn't flow both ways. There is a privilege in the ability to even perform blackness in this (inaudible).

BANFIELD: Can I ask of this -- in the outrage, because there is much outrage, I mean every op-ed is filled with the topic of one woman, so is the outrage commensurate with the crime?

DAVIS: And that one moment story is part of the outrage. That one delusional woman has gotten this much attention, has caused this -- we're actually entertaining trans-racial outside of the adoptive, you know, space where its use as a thing, no case study, no science, nothing to support it.

There's not decades of research like with trans-gender, particularly trans-gender black women. These, you know, as he said earlier this is white privilege at a spectacular level. This could not happen the other way around. And that she had shape shift.

She was white at Howard. She was white in that picture. She was black at five. She's black now only she could get away with that. You know I -- that wouldn't happen in a reverse, our history matters.

BLOW: And the only people who could do it is people who have no, kind of passing where it used to be a common in the black community. And those people who had a kind of a legitimate claim to because they had a one white parent, one black parent. But even in those cases, you know, the president has one black parent and one white parent but he chose to identify as black. If he had said, I am -- I identify as a white person who would believe that, right?

So the idea that it just doesn't work both ways and I think the idea that someone would actually try to present it and then be fortunate (ph) about the facts that we're creating an entire back story around this fraudulence is I think what Rachel's people are in.

BANFIELD: I think the answer is we don't have anymore answers to say.

DAVIS: And she's somehow legitimate.

BANFIELD: I got to live it there, unfortunately. I could go, the whole show honestly, just on this topic because I remained as perplex maybe if not more about what happened.

Michaela and Charles, nice to see you both.

DAVIS: Thank you. BANFIELD: Coming up next, he has a, I guess you could say a lot of money, that's another statement. He's got gamajoons (ph) of money. He's got a lot of recognition and he just became the 12th presidential candidate for the Republican Party.

Ah, you know his name. He's a reality TV star for crying out loud, of course you know who he is. Donald Trump jumps into the race. Is it typical Donald Trump fashion or is it hilarity run amok.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)