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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

GOP Debate Discussed; Examining Capital Punishment. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired August 07, 2015 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:04] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: I was interested in sort of watching for how race issues would be touched on, in this Republican debate.

And Amy Holmes, Ben Carson had a fascinating answer for why reporters ask him about his lack of comments on race, but there wasn't a whole lot to talk black lies matter. But did you think Ben Carson did or said the right thing or do you think he squandered an opportunity to try to really sort of crossover into the general election and get people on board for race issues and how he feels about that.

AMY HOLMES, FORMER SPEECH WRITER FOR SEN.BILL FRIST: I thought his answer was excellent, not just because I'd happen to be a conservative, but it's also one that I've heard from other doctors that when you are operating on a human being what you see is a human being. And I love that he said he operates on brains and that's where he thinks human beings reside, I mean some religious people might say in their soul as well and in their heart.

So I like his answer and in fact sort of reminded me in a small way of president then Senator Obama, when he spoke at the democratic convention. And he said there is no white America or black America, red state or blue state that he wanted to be someone who would unite Americans as the Unit State of America.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's different though.

HOLMES: As Americans not divided, hold on Marc, let me finish. Not Americans is divided along race.

Ben Carson he could choose whether or not he wants to dive more into racial politics as, you know, framed by the left. But I thought his answer last night was one that a lot of Americans could actually relate to.

HILL: One I think because his answer is very different than Barack Obama. And I disagree with Barack Obama's response too back in 2004, 2006 actually but it was an awful answer then so because there is a black America and then very clearly is a white America.

But what Ben Carson was saying was even a step further into racial amnesia and racial blindness. And that is that he was essentially saying that race isn't real, that, you know, when you cut people open and operate as a doctor you realize that the human body is one thing and race is some kind of social fiction. And the truth is race is very real, race might not be a biological reality. But it is a social casualty it may not affect the physical body, but it affects the body politic. And Ben Carson, I'm sure he scored big points with Republicans, big points with the base because they want to be race deniers, they want to ignore the existence of race, when you have a black Republican, who's willing to stand up and say race doesn't matter in a certain kind of way.

It will score big points they will continue to hate certain people and love him and that's a problem.

BANFIELD: All right may be that's the goal that there is no racial issue in this country. But certainly I think as you said it's not the reality right now Marc Lamont Hill.

Amy Holmes, Marc Lamint Hill, great to see you both, thank you appreciate it.

Just a reminder CNN is going to host three Republican debate, first one taking place in September and then in October. CNN is going to host first democratic presidential debate, stay with CNN to the latest on the race to 2016.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:36:30] BANFIELD: If you missed last night's Republican debate. Let me get you caught up some what, the word cloud generated by 17 presidential wannabes over a three plus hours of talking, it looks a little like that actually looks exactly like that. Of course it's the word that make or break a campaign, it's not all those words could be strung together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I'm a nominee how is Hillary Clinton going to lecture me about living paycheck to paycheck, I was raised paycheck to paycheck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only one to take out half of the brain although you would think if you go to Washington that someone had beat me to it.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our leaders are stupid our politicians are stupid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Well, OK, these guys aren't, I'm just going to say that.

I want to welcome back Political Comedian and the Daily Beast Contributor Dean Obeidallah, and CNN Political Commentator and Former White House Political Director under Ronald Reagan, Jeffrey Lord, welcome to both of you.

So I know you watch that, you know, salivating all over every line so to speak because this is what can make a break these guys. DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Right.

BANFIELD: A really good zinger, a memorable moment for a really good put down, we talked about the comedy yesterday...

OBEIDALLAH: Yes.

BANFIELD: ... you catch anything that would have actually amounted to something that you suggested would be going to get kill Doland Trump with comedy because he's got such a thin skin?

OBEIDALLAH: No one did like my line, hey Trump you, you say you want America great again start with your hair, no one did that...

BANFIELD: No one.

OBEIDALLAH: But Rand Paul went after him. But I will say honestly in the whole big picture, this was the best new comedy of the summer. And I'm so enforce with the next episode on September, comedians around the country, will going to form a super pack for Trump called Trump for ever, we want him run (ph), he is engaging -- forget politics, we were all taking about him.

He got some zingers in at the expensive (inaudible) who's not even running he brought her up. Rand Paul went after him

BANFIELD: I didn't expect the funniest guy on that stage and that being Ben Carson, but Ben Carson had in his speeches and I don't he intended to either.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, good sense of humor he does have a good sense of humor. And medically directed I mean he is unique by -- and that that the whole half a brain thing was well done.

BANFIELD: I think because Jeffrey I going to be honest with you, it's so genuine that was not a canned line...

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: ...the whole idea about making Kelly I didn't even know if I was going to get a talk again. It was genuine and it was organic and your old boss Ronald Reagan, was the master of that.

LORD: Yes he was.

BANFIELD: And he got a lot of people loving him mostly because of that.

LORD: But I'll tell the one other things that I found -- I'm going back and look at some of the comments made about Reagan in the day before he was elected in leaving sometimes while he was elected. And there was a considerable feeling like well, you know, and the words of Hamilton Jordan that cover Cater White House Chief of Staff, America isn't going to elect this an almost 70 year old actor who's gotten all these extremist right wing fuse well, although year later wrong.

BANFIELD: Yeah, well and also there was line that I'm not going to let you know, age stand in the way.

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: I'm not going to...

LORD: And that was his recovery from the debate where the earlier debate, they tried to stuff his head filled with all sort of facts and figures and...

BANFIELD: Yeah.

LORD: You know, and it was terrible.

BANFIELD: Yeah, it never goes well when you try to memorize stuff, I mean, you know, Dean as a performer as well as a lawyer and a public commentator, you got to know that people out there are smarter than you think they know a canned comment when they see it, and they know when you're just genuinely affable.

OBEIDALLAH: Sure, I mean Mike Huckabee had a good line in his closing statement that seems to be a hit at Trump, it was really a heroic claim expense. But it was clearly a line he prepared in memory. Some stuff Ben Carson was kind of organic, Trump the rose are (ph) down line was organic, you may not like the joke but that was a funny moment. Going to Ronald Reagan...

[12:40:01] BANFIELD: But it wasn't true, that the problem might even saying from him that it wasn't true

OBEIDALLAH: Ronald Reagan and many presidents before, before President Obama also used jokes much more self-deprecating manner to make you likable. Obama has weaponized humor and I've written about that a lot for CNN and for the Daily Beast.

You have Trump taking it to all new levels, he Twitted last night after the debate at 3:30 in the morning mocking Megyn Kelly on Twitter and Fox. And it's funny in a bizarre sort of way like he's -- it's -- makes you go like, "Oh my God I can't believe this is happening." But he said so many crazy things or things that are upsetting but he's still doing fine in the poll so this means nothing.

LORD: But the thing I find this morning I was on a radio show in Birmingham, Alabama and I said -- I asked, "So what's up?" and they said, they like Trump they'd like Ted Cruz and I said, "You know, was there any backlash?" and they said, "Yes. They didn't like Fox." I said at Birmingham...

BANFIELD: Well, that's obtunded.

LORD: yes, exactly.

BANFIELD: So there you go. I thought attacking, you know, a Fox News host like Megyn wouldn't go over around if you know, maybe it will.

Jeffrey Lord and Dean Obeidallah nice to have you. Thank you both, appreciate it. LORD: Thanks.

OBEIDALLAH: Thanks.

BANFIELD: Stay with CNN because Donald Trump is going to be on CNN tonight, 9:00 Eastern Time. I wonder what the tweets would be like after that.

Coming up next, the candidate who may have had the most gain or lose in last night's debate. What did they say? Was it Jeb Bush, did he do what he needed to do to stay in this game? If he's still in play all those other questions that we like to ask, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:45:00] JEB BUSH: I'm going to have to earn this. Maybe the barrier, the bar is even higher for me, that's fine.

I've got a record in Florida, I'm proud of my dad and I'm certainly proud of my brother. In Florida they call me Jeb because I earned it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Can Jeb Bush follow his father and his brother into the White House, however, because you really have to earn that too. Arguably on last nights crowded debate stage he had the most win or the most lose based on his performance.

Bush, the man with a political pedigree and the highest expectations has pursued what some called the slow and steady campaign style, but is that a winning strategy especially next to that big, big piece of air next door.

CNN's Poll of Polls shows him trailing Donald Trump by 10 full points. Want to bring back CNNs Political Director David Chalian and Senior Political Reporting Nia-Malika Henderson to talk a little bit about this.

So, David if I could start with you, if you looked at Jeb Bush on the stage compared to just about everybody else, he seemed a little understated and a little bit muted but he also seemed very much like he was the newest governor in Florida. That's a style he's the more understated Bush.

Can that fly in this group?

DAVID CHALIAN CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You know I think it was more than just understated and I think at times we've seen sort of not unsure footing. He just seemed to me last night to be somebody for the most part in his performance who didn't want to sort of jump in at the driver seat of this campaign and own it. It's sort of seeing to be happening around him.

Now he did have a couple of good moments, I thought he gave a very strong answer on Common Core which is one of these vulnerabilities inside the Republican nominating electorate. But overall I didn't walk away with the impression that Jeb Bush assuaged any concerns that might be existing in the Republican Party establishment that he may not have everything it takes to go the distance. And I think that burden will now still be on him in the weeks ahead in this campaign.

BANFIELD: So Nia-Malika Henderson I want to put up a poll that was taken in mid-July that effectively puts Hillary Clinton up against Jeb Bush if he gets the nomination and then he gets walled up by her 50 percent to 44 percent. But now I want to inject something else and it was the topic of debate last night right off the bat.

If Trump were to wage an independent bid against and make it a three- way race, here is how those numbers then shake out. You'd have Hillary Clinton at 46 percent, Jeb Bush at 30 percent and Trump at 20 percent. Effectively I'll use Donald Trumps favorite word here that would be a disaster for Jeb Bush and for the Republicans.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. And we have sort of recent history to think about with Ross Perot basically sort of splitting that vote and handing the White House to Bill Clinton. We would have another situation like that. If Donald Trump decided to run a third party indeed he talks last night of having the net leverage and sort of wanting to keep that leverage with that sort of threat of a third party bid. Who knows what the Republican Party will have to do to sort of make sure that doesn't happen.

But in the meantime ,you've got Jeb Bush sort of hanging back and I thought everybody was kind of hanging back last night. Almost just waiting for Donald Trump to implode on his sort of volition rather than going after him directly.

BANFIELD: Every time they do that they could wait and wait and wait because his implosions seem to actually get him a lot of -- oh, real quickly David if you could just answer this. One of the issues that is so contention for Republicans is immigration. And on that Jeb Bush then I'm just going to give you a short snap of this so there should be a path for earned legal status for those that are here not amnesty earned legal status.

That's tough in this crowd. Maybe during the general election that would work but when you're trying to get the nomination do these words help you or hurt you?

CHALIAN: Right. Jeb Bush has his answer on immigration down he's not where the base of the party his and he's never going to get there he said. So, this is an answer he's going to have to give again and again every town hall, every debate, Ashleigh.

He was asked specifically about his comments last year that people came here and cross the border illegally as an active love for his family. Asked if he still stood by those remarks and he said that he did. So, even though it is a vulnerability for him in the party he's made the calculation that sticking to his principles on this will indeed help his effort. BANFIELD: All right. Nia-Malika Henderson and David Chalian thank you very much for all your work and staying up late and then getting up early for us as well. Appreciate it.

Coming up in other news, a man facing execution for a murder he swears he had nothing to do with.

Coming up next I'm going to talk to two women you probably know well. They are leading the site to try to save his life.

[12:49:46] Actress Susan Sarandon and the woman she portrayed in her Oscar-winning role in "Dead Man Walking", Sister Helen Prejean.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:53:35] BANFIELD: The state with the most executions in the nation. This week CNN's Death Row stories is going to head to Texas for an in- depth look at a murder in San Antonio that sent one man fighting to prove his innocence possibly to the very end.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX GIBNEY, DEATH ROW STORIES: Texans are hardwired to support the death penalty. There may be a gene that is unique to people who are born and live in Texas. We are programmed to believe that the death penalty is a necessary part of our criminal justice system. We'd love a good execution.

SUSAN SARONDON, ACTRESS: Since 1976, Texas has executed well over 500 people more than the next six states combined.

ANN RICHARDS, FMR. TEXAS GOVERNOR: Since I've been governor, we have put 45 people to death. It is not something that anybody wants to deal with, but they won't permit another crime.

SARANDON: The Governor during Ruben's clemency appeal was the colorful leader of the Texas Democrats, Ann Richards.

RICHARDS: Poor George. He was born with a silver foot in his mouth.

SARANDPN: In Texas, even liberal icon, Ann Richards would not dispute the death penalty.

[12:54:55] On August 23rd, 1994, the day before he was to be executed, Ruben Cantu received the reply. Clemency denied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That voice you were hearing, you recognized as actress Susan Sarandon. She joins me now.

Two decades ago, she starred as anti-death penalty advocate in the film "Dead Man Walking" and won an Oscar for it and a lasting friendship with the person to the left of her on your screen, author and activist, Sister Helen Prejean, both joined me now. I have always wondered if I have watched your career and what you did from the film. I watched the film "Dead Man Walking" in the theater. I've always wondered what got you to this very passionate stance and this involvement in this particular issue.

SARANDON: The death penalty never made any sense to me, but it was more of the love story there the -- between the two people in this idea a hero doesn't just walk in knowing they're a hero. I like the fact that Sister Helen kept making mistakes and kept getting pulled in and there was something reluctant about her involvement initially and then she kept trying to find her way. And that what religious people do is love unconditionally and is that even possible?

And then in the background, you have these specifics of how the death penalty works which people have very strong opinions about one way or another, but knew nothing about it really.

So, to make it specific so that whatever side you are on, you had to deal with the complications of these issues instead of just having a knee-jerk reaction to your feelings about the death penalty and I think what we wanted to do is just start a dialogue and that's what the book had done and Tim did a brilliant job of taking the book and combining the two actual cases that were in the book and giving it out there for people to make a decision based on the facts not just their emotional predisposition.

BANFIELD: When it comes to these facts, I think a lot of people are surprised when they hear that the United States shares the company in terms of death penalty sanctioning states with people like North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia.

SARANDON: Arabia.

BANFIELD: These are places that we would probably in other aspects prefer not to, probably prefer not to belong.

But that said, Sister Helen, the poll numbers don't lie in this country. It is almost 50-50 those who were for and against the death penalty. From your perspective, there are so many loving religious people in America who believe that death penalty is right, the right tact to take. Why is there that disconnect from your perspective and from your--from the people who you represent?

SISTER HELEN PREJEAN, ANTI-DEATH PENALTY ACTIVIST: People believe in a theoretical death penalty. They say when people do these crimes we believe they ought to get the death penalty. That's the theoretical death penalty. When they do the poll questions, are you for or against the death penalty?

Polls now show when people have given this an alternative life without parole, a majority of Americans choose life without parole because they're watching the death penalty and they see it's broken. There are 154 people who have been exonerated off for death row, they see that it's -- in practice it's going down even in Texas. We don't have a way of doing death. And Richard Glossip whom we're here to talk about today is a perfect example of how broken the system is. When we talk about not knowing facts about the death penalty, here's a man who's scheduled to be executed in Oklahoma, September 16th, the man who murdered somebody in a motel confessed to it. The only reason Richard sitting on death row is the man, Justin Sneed, who confessed to murdering the guy claimed that Richard hired him over -- was going to pay him money, pay for hire to capital crime and aggravating circumstance which he get the death penalty. And so you have this guy, Bob Macy the prosecutor that went for the death penalty in this case.

BANFIELD: Susan this happens all the time.

SARANDON: But also he is not -- Sister Helen didn't say the man who actually killed the victim is in lock -- is there for life. He's not...

PREJEAN: He got the deal.

SARANDON: He got the deal.

BANFIELD: He got locked because of the murder for hire allegation. Well now it's proven in court, in any case, but this happens a lot. There are people sitting on death row like Richard Glossip who have what some others would say sort of flimsy evidence, maybe eye witness so there is witness or...

PREJEAN: Absolutely. There's no forensic evidence, just this man's word. That's all.

BANFIELD: What are your chances? I mean if -- it's one thing coming on television with me and making your case known, but what are your chances of actually having an effect on let's say...

SARANDON: Well, four people in Oklahoma, in the state have already been exonerated because of Sneed's testimony. This example, but the problem is that this man, Richard Glossip, had two bad trials. So he has used up all of his legal...

BANFIELD: Appeals, yeah.

SARANDON: ... appeals. They didn't show at either trial the video of the police pressuring and making the deal which they had and they never even submitted it. So, now the only thing that we can appeal to is a petition and some kind of public outcry as a reach to try to put pressure on the governor so that we consider this because otherwise and as a rule, I mean, he's been on death row for 17 years.