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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Paris Terrorist Raids; Terrorists Use Technology; Threats Divert Flights. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[12:00:18] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow, live in Paris this evening. It is 6:00 here.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Ashleigh Banfield in New York. Welcome to a special edition of LEGAL VIEW.

We are awaiting word from the highest levels in France as to exactly who was arrested and who was killed in an overnight series of raids north of Paris. But we know police were looking for the ringleader of Friday's terror attacks. And authorities say they acted just in time.

Two suspects are now dead, seven others have been detained after a military-style operation in Saint-Denis, a suburb that's also home to the stadium that was hit by the suicide bombers on Friday. More than 100 police raided two apartments where a female suicide bomber blew herself up. And police used a sniper to kill someone else. Police also knocked down the door of a Saint-Denis church, but it is not clear why or what they left with. The government says the raids prevented new and imminent attacks, but no details are being divulged on that yet either.

Thousands of miles away, French warplanes today launching new attacks on ISIS command centers in Syria. The French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle in due - due in the eastern Mediterranean by the end of this week and tripling France's military assets in the region.

Poppy Harlow is standing by live in Paris.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Hi, Ashleigh.

Those raids that you just spoke about in Saint-Denis went on for hours and hours, starting in the dark, in the middle of the night. A counterterrorism source telling us here at CNN, police met fierce resistance. Our Clarissa Ward is there. She is on the ground.

It is unbelievable what broke out, Clarissa, went for hours and hours. The gunshots followed by explosions. Tell me about how close police are saying we were potentially to another attack here in Paris, what they foiled?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, the chaos really started about 14 hours ago at 4:30 in the morning Paris time. Local residents told us that they started to hear gunfire. They heard grenades being detonated. And then they saw a massive police and military presence pushing into an apartment building that's just at the end of this street here. They've obviously blocked off this entire area.

But earlier on a bit, we were able to get up on a roof where we could see the back of that apartment building. The windows had been blown out by the force of those explosions. One resident telling us that the loudest explosions happened at out 7:30 a.m. And we could also see teams of forensic experts moving around inside the apartment buildings. They appeared to be taking photographs, taking samples. They had flashlights. One can assume that they will be working through the night there trying to ascertain who was in that apartment and what exactly they were planning to do.

We know that two people were killed during the course of these raids. One of them believed to be a woman who attempted to blow herself up. We also know that seven people were arrested. Now, the focus of the raid is the alleged ringleader of Friday attacks. He is a 27-year-old Belgian of Moroccan origin. His name is Abdelhamid Abaaoud. And just yesterday, Poppy, we were all under the impression that he was actually back in Syria. He was the ringleader of another attack in Belgian that was thwarted back in January. He managed to elude capture then and it was thought that he had actually returned to ISIS territory.

But now it appears that he may still be at large. So police continuing to work in that apartment building, looking for DNA samples, trying to identify who were these attackers, how is this related to Friday night's attacks? And really trying to drill down on what increasingly appears to be a larger network across the country, working together, also in next doorbell Belgium, facilitating these types of complex, sophisticated and very frightening attacks, Poppy. Most of the residents of this neighborhood said the same thing to me. They said it felt like a war zone. We've never seen anything like this before, heavy weapon, explosions, bombs. This is really uncharted territory for Parisians.

Poppy.

HARLOW: No question. I mean in the middle of Paris of all places.

[12:05:00] I also understand from authorities that the bomb maker is still believed to be at large. And after this raid in these two apartment buildings, one of the floors was blown up and collapsed. Then, Clarissa, they moved on to a church and knocked down, barged through the doors of a church. Do we know why?

WARD: That's right, Poppy. We were actually there when that happened. There were dozens and dozens of journalists milling around outside this church. Suddenly we saw police come in, about a dozen or so of them. They beginning trying to bash down that door. And it took them quite a while. It was a big, heavy door. They were finally able to bash it down. At that point we saw them file into the church. They spent about 10 or 15 minutes inside there, ostensibly, one would imagine, they were trying to clear the area, make sure that no one was hunkered down or hiding out in that church.

They then did exit the church. No word on what exactly they were looking for. But what it goes to show is how much - how much people still don't know, how much authorities still don't know about what is out there, who is still out there, what plots are still ongoing. Really, you've seen over the past two days hundreds and hundreds of raids as police fan out across the entire country, Poppy, trying to work out how big this network is and what plans may still be in store.

Poppy.

HARLOW: And I just came from that hospital, Clarissa, where two of those arrested suspects were being treated for their wounds this morning. It is critical that investigators get them to talk, get them to share information about exactly that, how big is this web and what was the next potential plot. Clarissa Ward live for us in Saint-Denis. Thank you very much.

We are focusing on these raids, but I need to tell you, they are not the only ones. What French authorities have told us today is that they have carried out more than 100 raids since yesterday alone. They've taken 25 people into custody. They have confiscated 34 weapons. And when you look in totality over the last three days they have done more than 400 of these raids, taken 60 people into custody and seized 75 weapons.

Joining me now from the Paris bureau, CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto, who is with me, and CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruikshank.

Jim, when you look at all of these, what led them there is so critical, cell phone tracking.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: This was a huge day for French security services. They stopped a plot they say moments or, you know, before it was going to carry out. And based on intelligence that they gathered just in the previous 24 hours, they say that these apartments were under surveillance for about a day. We know that that surveillance was sparked by communication, intercepted communication, a cell phone call or a text message.

HARLOW: (INAUDIBLE) encrypted communication we've talked so much about?

SCIUTTO: Well, not that we know. We do know that part of the clues - one of the clues that led them here were those cell phones that were captured from the dead terrorists on Friday that - some of which had encrypted - encryption apps on them, but also had regular text messages on them as well. So, you know, was this a case where the terrorists let their guard down and had a regular conversation with someone or a regular text message? Either way, it was something that they were able to intercept. That helped them - lead them to this apartment to an attack which we could easily be - talking right now, Poppy, about a second, major deadly attack on the streets of Paris.

HARLOW: Absolutely. SCIUTTO: Instead, we're talking about an operation, a successful operation, to capture and kill suspected terrorists who French police believe were about to carry out an attack. That's good police work. That's urgent police work.

HARLOW: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: Acting very urgently on intelligence they gained only in the last couple of days.

HARLOW: What - Paul Cruikshank, to you. What that makes me think is now how critical it is that they get those that they have arrested alive to talk. When you're dealing with someone who is part of ISIS, set on destroying - destroying those that they do not agree with, even taking their own lives for it, what's the likelihood they're going to talk and tell authorities anything?

PAUL CRUIKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, the authorities are certainly going to try, you know, use every trick in the book to get information out of them, because that information could save many lives still in the hours ahead. I think there's a fear this thing is not over at this point, perhaps, Poppy.

There's actually some new information coming out. This comes from FTBF (ph), the Belgian national state media organization, and that is that the female cousin of Abdelhamid Abaaoud was the woman who blew herself up in that residence in Saint-Denis. We are also being told by a senior Belgian counter terrorism official that that was the relative who was believed to be in that residence. So it all is fitting together now. The intercepted communications related to that female cousin of Abdelhamid Abaaoud, believed to be in that apartment, that made them think that Abdelhamid Abaaoud may also be there given that the French were also getting other strong indications that he was in Paris.

[12:10:15] So his female cousin blew herself up just a few hours ago in Paris.

HARLOW: Right. Wow.

CRUIKSHANK: The question now is, is he alive, is he dead, was he there? They're doing DNA testing to figure that out right now, Poppy.

HARLOW: Paul - so, Jim, to you. Just to - just to bring this full circle. Again, the big headline there coming from the Belgian state broadcaster, RTVF (ph), the cousin, the female who blew herself up this morning in the raids was the cousin of the ringleader. How -

SCIUTTO: You have a direct connection now to the ringleader of these attacks that they've been searching for, who until today we thought there was a strong possibility he was in Syria.

HARLOW: Was in Syria.

SCIUTTO: In fact, we know that he was in Syria, or at least intelligence believed he was in Syria because they - they launched air strikes to kill him within the last few weeks there.

HARLOW: But wouldn't it - wouldn't it be contrary to the ISIS strategy and frankly just terrorist strategy we've seen before, where they leave the so-called ringleader in safety far away.

SCIUTTO: Right. Yes. It is. I was saying this this morning, imagine if Osama bin Laden was found near the site of the 9/11 attacks.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: Or Anwar al-Awlaki, from al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, near some of the many attacks that he dispatched in the U.S. In fact, there had been a criticism, even in the jihadi community of the - you know, the amirs (ph), as it's called, the leaders who are back home, you know, in safety and dispatching, you know, the young cannon fodder out to carry out the attacks. So here - and I don't want to exaggerate Abaaoud's position in the organization, but he was at least, intelligence believes, connect to another of attacks.

HARLOW: Sure.

SCIUTTO: But the idea that he would be here places him at the - on the front lines, in effect.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: And, remember, part of the Islamic State's appeal is credibility, right, that they - that - that everyone's involved. Everyone's part of this battle. Everyone's willing to risk their life in effect. And not just risk, but give up their life for the cause.

HARLOW: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: That would be remarkable. No question. It would also be remarkable - and this more worrisome, that he would be able to travel back and forth from Syria here to Europe to plan, organize and carry out attacks.

HARLOW: Completely undetected. And, by the way, Paul Cruikshank has also learned that the man on is still on the run, the eighth terrorist believed in the Friday attacks, spent time in jail with the ringleader back in 2011.

SCIUTTO: That's right. That's the connection.

HARLOW: So yet another - yet another twisted connection.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Jim, thank you very much. Stay with me. Paul, thank you very much.

Still to come here, we are going to talk to you about the technology, those encrypted applications that Jim and I were just talking about. The high-tech means of communication that are available, that these terrorists are taking advantage of. It is not enough just to track their cell phones. We will look at how they share this information and how the good guys try to intercept them, next.

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[12:17:10] HARLOW: Welcome back to our continuing live coverage from Paris. I'm Poppy Harlow, in the Place de la Republique, where it just past 6:00 in the evening. What you see here, Parisians coming out, supporting those who lost their lives in Friday's attacks. A beautiful makeshift memorial as the sun set here in Paris.

I just came, though, from quite a different scene about half an hour north of where I'm standing now. I came from the Bogidi (ph) hospital. That is where this morning two of those suspected terrorists, arrested by French police, were taken for wounds to their arm. One of them more critically injured. We were told they went into surgery. And why that matters so much is because the police and the doctors want to keep them alive so they can probe them, interrogate them, question them, try to get any possible information as to what may have been plotted next and how big this web of terrorists really is.

I can also tell you security was incredibly high. When we pulled up in the cab was dropping us off, the authorities, with their assault rifles, would not let the car stop. They told us to move immediately across the street. They searched everyone trying to go in the hospital from head-to-toe. Again, we're trying to find out who was arrested, who was injured and who was killed in those raids this morning.

France's neighboring country is on high alert in the wake of this horrific attack on Friday. Police in Germany right now warning people not to walk at all in groups down the streets in Germany. Can you imagine that?

Also, after a second stadium evacuation, this time the TUI-Arena cleared out ahead of a performance by a very popular German band. Authorities reportedly got concrete information about a bomb threat there.

An earlier bomb scare forced the cancellation of that Netherlands/Germany soccer match at the arena. Authorities say they received two tips that someone was planning to set off an explosive inside of that arena.

Meantime the Sweden - Sweden raising its terror threat to level four. Five is considered the highest on that threat scale.

Ashleigh, it just gives you a sense of how really in shock and terrified, not just France is, but its neighboring countries.

BANFIELD: Understandably. Poppy, we're also talking about the French investigators who have found those encrypted apps on cell phone, believed to have belonged to some of those Paris attackers, but they don't appear to have left any trace of messages. And there's no indication who would have been receiving those messages. And that's why tracking down these terrorists is proving to be so incredibly difficult.

CNN Money tech correspondent Laurie Segall is here with me live in New York.

I want you to explain to me a little bit about these encrypted apps, particularly the one that has been employed by these killers. They one that's called Telegram, and why it's so different than anything else we've seen, like a Snapchat that just disappears but ultimately you don't really think it disappears.

[12:20:03] LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECH CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's almost like another - it's another app offering encryption technology. So the latest one that a lot of ISIS members have been migrating over to, and this is in the last, I would say, four weeks, is called Telegram. It's got a little bit of an interesting back story. It was built by a guy dubbed the Mark Zuckerberg of Russia. He - he actually fled, left, and now he's running this out of Berlin.

But a little bit about Telegram. They say they offer two layers of encryption. Also, they offer self-destructing messages. And ISIS posts 10 to 20 videos a day. This is where they put out their propaganda. And it makes it difficult for law enforcement to see who's behind the propaganda. They also offer group chats for up to 200 people. And this app, just for a little bit of context, this is where ISIS took credit for downing the Russian airliner. This is where they said Paris will be the first of many, many attacks.

And you look at this ISIS official channel and their - and there are channels in every single language related to ISIS. You know, this is something that a lot of folks are following more and more. Thousands of people are following these ISIS official channels on Telegram.

BANFIELD: What's so ironic about all of this is that the market was borne out of people who were frustrated that the NSA was listening in on their, you know, conventional communications, Facebook and Twitter and anything else that they were looking at and ultimately it gave rise to the creation of these kinds of apps. I am curious about how many they are because if we're talking about this one in particular, Telegram, look, maybe something will happen with Telegram, but what about all the others? Are there just so many there's a - it's a proliferation you just can't possibly get under control?

SEGALL: It is really difficult. And also these apps, we can't say they're necessarily bad. They offer protected communication for dissidents, right? They offer - you know, a lot of people were very frustrated after the NSA revelation. They wanted a protected way to communicate. And look at all the hacking. But there are so many. I can - I could list 10 of them, but I won't right now.

What's interesting is there's actually a 24/7 help desk offered on Telegram where senior ISIS members are talking about the latest technology. If Telegram seems to be not the new hot thing, they're going to talk about it on this 24/7 help desk. People actually go to a Telegram channel devoted to answering these questions. (INAUDIBLE) -

BANFIELD: Is it encrypted?

SEGALL: Yes, it's encrypted. And they ask questions like, hey, is Skype safe? And this screen shot you're looking at right now, this was lifted from this channel. This, right there, it's teaching potential ISIS members how to spoof their phone number if they want to sign up for multiple social networks and not get caught by the police. They're sending out digital pamphlets on how to spoof their phone numbers, how to avoid getting your Twitter account blocked, how to use the latest encryption technology. This is all happening not just on Telegram, but on many different encryption apps. And, also, what's interesting is that we believe it's by the same five to six senior ISIS members who are offering 24/7 care, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I guess the next front is to find out whether, in fact, this is hackable, this kind of technology. So we'll have to get you back and start finding that out.

SEGALL: Sure.

BANFIELD: Laurie Segall, thank you for that.

I want to send you back to Poppy Harlow in Paris.

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[12:27:21] BANFIELD: Days after the attacks in Paris, terrorism fears are now spreading to the skies. Two Air France flights headed from the U.S. to Paris were diverted on Tuesday night because of bomb threats. Flight 65 from Los Angeles was forced to land in Salt Lake City after a threat was called in from the ground. Shortly afterwards, Flight 55 from Washington's Dulles Airport was diverted to an airport in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The planes were search, they were given the all clear, but it's still not clear who made those threats.

Air France released this statement. Quote, "local authorities have carried out complete inspections of the aircraft, the passengers and their luggage, confirming a false alert. An investigation will be led by the authorities to identify the source of the telephone call."

Joining me now to discuss this is Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst.

And, Mary, it's not unique that bomb threats are called in, but is this just a sign of the times right now following what happened in Egypt over the Sinai, following what happened in Paris?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, for Air France it's certainly the sign of the times to what happened in Egypt, but I think we were talking just in June of this year, remember, United had to shut down I think their operations for about 39 minutes they had so many bomb threats called in. So, unfortunately, it's a - you know, it's an ever present problem where people call in bomb threats. The trick is to figure out what is simply a threat and which has something behind it, this is a bomb or other device that could actually bring down the plane. And I think that's what has everyone on edge. The threats were effective because we know that the security is not foolproof in the United States.

BANFIELD: And with that statement from Air France saying that everything was inspected and checked, it made me wonder, how do you do that kind of a check. It would seem to be extraordinarily dangerous give what we've learned about the flight over the Sinai. There was a bomb presumably in some piece of luggage or something. How do you get people on the ground to search that baggage and to search those people if there's a potential bomb?

SCHIAVO: Well, you know, believe it or not, that is one thing where the Federal Administration Aviation and airports actually have plans in place, as does Euro Control (ph). Europe has it too. And there are a very set series of things it has to go through, starting with the aircraft. For example, when they learn which plane and which flight, one of the first things they do is separate all the other flights from that plane and then get the flight down to a level, to an altitude which the bomb does go off, they don't have a rapid decompression. They have a chance to keep flying and keep living. They go to an airport where there are bomb squads and bomb dogs. And so once this gets put into place, the air traffic controllers too have these instructions and they know where to send the plane so they can actually scrub the plane, isolate the plane. Scrub it, I mean by looking for bombs.

[12:30:01] BANFIELD: Sure. Yes.

SCHIAVO: Isolate it and handle it. So there are set procedures at how to deal with it. Most important, of course, is get all the other planes away from the plane and get that plane down to where the - it's decompressed, they'll live.

BANFIELD: It can manage.

Mary, you know, I don't have to tell you or our viewers that next