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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Romney Blasts Trump In Landmark Speech Today; Could Cruz Capitalize From Romney Vs. Trump?; Romney Says Trump Is Not Fit For The Presidency And Says His Nomination Would Assure A Clinton Win; Justice Department Grants Ex-Clinton Staffer Immunity In Email Investigation. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired March 03, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:06] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Right. The tweets have started. I should remind you, if you just joined us, that Donald Trump is in the air. I don't know if he's got Wi-fi on Trump Force 1. But that's maybe why we haven't had the tweet yet as a response to what Mitt Romney has laid out.

Again, one of the more compendiously scathing accounts of just about every single criticism that everybody has had, he's put it in one old big basket and he's pushed it forward to anyone watching.

Gloria Borger, thank you so much ...

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure.

BANFIELD: ... for your analysis. And also, Mark Preston and Jim Acosta, I want to thank the two of you as well.

So much more to chew on. This is so not over, in fact, just the beginning. How do you see this Romney/Trump fight, if you're one Ted Cruz because I'm second place when it comes to the delegate map. The guy who was fighting fierce battles with Donald Trump, and the so- called establishment? We're going to find out, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:35:21] MITT ROMNEY 2012 GOP PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Here's what I know. Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud. His promises are as worthless as a degree from Trump University.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Just moments ago, we just heard this. The last Republican nominee for president did his darnedest to stop Donald Trump from being the next Republican nominee for president.

This was the scene, folks, in a speech that will surely turn up in the textbooks. That are sure to be written on the 2016 campaign. Mitt Romney blasting this year's GOP front runner, "a fraud", and, "phony", whose promises, and I will quote him, "are as worthless as a degree from Trump University."

For his part in tweets and TV interviews, Trump says, and this is not since the interview. It's before. That Romney was a failed candidate who ran one of the worst races in history. And I can tell you this. Donald Trump has not yet reacted on twitter to the scathing, scathing diatribe that Mitt Romney just delivered within the last hour.

He is on his flight, and I am told by one of our various producers, that he does have Wi-Fi on his plane so we can only assume he is aware of what's happened and is perhaps crafting his response at least in a couple characters, anyway.

So as we wait for Donald Trump's very, very significant voice in all of this, my next guest is watching this all with more than just a passing concern, because Ron Nehring is the California state chairman of Ted Cruz's campaign for president.

Mr. Nehring, thank you so much joining me. I asked Gloria Borger, our chief political correspondent and analyst here at CNN a moment ago whether what Mitt Romney just did is going to be fuel for the debate that is about to take place behind you in several short hours.

What do you think is going to change on that debate stage, given what we just heard?

RON NEHRING, CALIFORNIA STATE CHAIRMAN, CRUZ CAMAPAIGN: Well, I think it helps to shape some of the context going into this debate, because we have seen more and more questions being asked about Donald Trump. And what's really added fuel to the fire is his refusal to release his tax returns, which would provide insight as to the type of organizations that he's been giving to.

For example, we have seen him refuse to authorize the "New York Times" to release that secret tape they have of him giving his, "true views on the immigration issue", which might run very contradictory to what he has said publicly.

So it does help to shape some of that context. You know, Ted Cruz has been raising these questions. We welcome the fact that other people have added their voice to that, as well. Because at the end of the day, at the end of this process, Donald Trump would be a disastrous nominee for the Republican party, and would lose to Hillary Clinton, and lose the United States Senate to the Democrats, and give away the Supreme Court for a generation to the left. That's how the nominee of Donald Trump would produce.

BANFIELD: So, Ron Nehring, I'm just getting a little reaction in, and clearly we're waiting for Donald Trump's reaction. But in the meantime, we have this from his son, Donald Trump Jr., who has sent out this tweet.

Someone pointed out that at real Donald Trump got 60,000 more votes that Mitt Romney did in Massachusetts primary, the state where Romney was governor, #enoughsaid.

So, again, that's Donald Trump Jr., tweeting in response to Mitt Romney. I -- you know, let they double-check whether that was actually said after -- I'm just going to ask our control room to double-check the time on that to find out if it was after Mitt Romney's statement.

But, I will say this -- it was 9:00 a.m. so this is prior to the statement. But clearly, the text had been out, and the Trump campaign and family, they knew what Mitt Romney, in part was going to say. With that said, one of the campaign officials from the campaign with which you signed on, said that,

"We are glad more people are speaking the truth about the disaster that he would be as our candidate". Again, this is about Mitt Romney speaking about what they're saying is a disaster if he becomes the candidate.

It's the more people, Mr. Nearing, that I see has done. We're glad more people are speaking the truth. Mr. Nearing, not very many people are saying this, I think this is sort of conundrum that many Republicans are in. Why is this happening now, so late in the game, and is this the beginning of an avalanche, or is this just one big voice and poof, it's done?

NEHRING: Well, I think we have to put the timing into perspective, and that it's not the end of the game. You know, I listened to some of these commentators, you know, in the media who talk about, oh, it's too late, it's all over. Donald Trump has a little over 300 delegates. We have about 225 delegates so far. You need more than 1,200 delegates to be the Republican nominee.

[12:40:05] And big states like mine, State of California, have not even -- have not even come close to having the opportunity to have our voices heard. This is wide open, we have the power as Republicans to determine who our nominee is .No one has a luck on these nominations.

What we do know is that Ted Cruz can beat Donald Trump. He's defeated Donald Trump five times. Marco Rubio is not the candidate who can do that. Our party needs to come together behind a candidate who can do that. And put us in a position to win in November. Donald Trump can't win this election in November. And Ted Cruz can.

BANFIELD: All right, Ron. I sure appreciate you taking the time in cold Detroit to speak with us, Mr. Nehring. Thank you so much. And we'll be looking forward to what happens on the stage tonight ...

NEHRING: OK.

BANFIELD: ... and all of the fallout. Take us there, from what we just heard Mitt Romney say.

Coming up next, is the Republican civil war playing out today isn't enough for you, plenty more fireworks to come. We're still waiting for Donald Trump to fire back at Mitt Romney, and after that, the candidates come face-to-face at that GOP's debate tonight in Detroit.

So much more to talk about in what you can only call an extraordinary day in campaign 2016.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:45:33] BANFIELD: The biggest headline today is Mitt Romney, the former presidential candidate from GOP coming out and absolutely slamming point by point Donald Trump as someone he says doesn't have temperament stability or suitability to be president.

But wait. Do you remember this moment from just four short years ago? Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (R): Mitt is tough. He's smart. He's sharp. He's not going to allow bad things to continue to happen to this country that we all love.

So Governor Romney, go out and get them. You can do it.

MITT ROMNEY, FOMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR: There are some things that you just can't imagine happening in your life. That is one of them.

Being in Donald Trump's magnificent hotel and having his endorsement is a delight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It's a delight. There are some things you can't imagine. What's going to happen four years later? Thank God for the videotape.

We'll talk more about this with CNN's Political Commentators Tara Setmayer and Margaret Hoover.

I saw the two of you watching that again through the looking glass. The magical tape tells us how politics can be, how it is.

But even that tells me nothing about what I just heard from Mitt Romney. What will the effects be?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the fact that we're just 20 minutes or 45 minutes after Mitt Romney's amazingly scathing indictment of Donald Trump.

Mitt Romney is the one that's on the defensive from the defensive is going to be is try -- is it we're going to have to hear about his hypocrisy and see, he took his endorsement a couple. That, you know, is distracting from the bottom line of what Mitt Romney laid out. Everything that he laid out in that speech today are valid points that people really need to pay attention to.

You know, when Mitt Romney was accepting that endorsement, he wasn't -- he wasn't -- Donald Trump wasn't running anything in the country. He wasn't, you know, up for the presidency of the United States.

(BEGIN VIDOE CIP)

So he wasn't worrying about how well he was going to handle ISIS or whether he was going to have the nuclear codes or what he was going to do with our trade policy. He was a businessman who has a huge following. He's a cult personality. He wanted his endorsement for votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

That's different than someone handing them now the keys to the greatest democracy in the world and actually having to be an executive of the United States. That's a whole different ball game. It doesn't make Mitt Romney's points invalid or very valid.

BANFIELD: Margaret Hoover, there is a big debate tonight. I'm sure you heard about it. Because this going to have one lick of an effect of how they talk on stage tonight?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I think that's why -- I think some of the themes that Romney introduced, the lines of reasoning, the logic and frankly the directness and the harshness of the line of attacking against Donald Trump which, by the way, isn't personal.

It is about his record, the kind of president he would be. He's calling him a phony, but I mean in a very justified and logical way. I think you will see the candidates picking up on this theme, and make continuing to amplify outwards.

Does it make a difference? I mean, Ashleigh, this is the million dollar question nobody knows. But first of all, let's not get ahead of the voters. This is a time for choosing. There is two weeks before Super Tuesday and this is the last moment that something like this could actually make a difference.

We have seen, in all of these early states that majorities of Republican primary voters have not made up their minds 10 days before they go to vote. They're making up their minds three days, two days, one day before they go to vote.

And something -- look, this isn't going to matter to the people who already supports Donald Trump. We know that. That's not who Mitt Romney was talking to.

But Mitt Romney is talking to the people who are thinking, eh, is that data complete? Is he going to win? Maybe I should just hop on board and he's causing them to confront the reality of what he sees as a real danger to the Republican Party.

And making Republican primary voters feel that this is their time for choosing. Do you want the Republican Party to go towards what he says is a phony, somebody who isn't actually a Republican, who you don't know what he'll do with the Republican party, or --

BANFIELD: Can you both take 30 seconds? And I truly mean that and tell me if the one big thing missing off Mitt Romney's spreadsheet in that speech was -- oh, by the way, that whole political correctness that you guys seem to all gravitate to, I have an issue with that.

That was not there. This was the one thing that Donald Trump supporters love about him. Everything else they don't care.

SETMAYER: I think that's not in -- that's not in Mitt Romney's DNA. And that's part --

BANFIELD: It needs to be.

SETMAYER: That was part of the criticism.

BANFIELD: Isn't it the mission?

SETMAYER: That was part of the criticism of him during the 2012 election, that he was a little too -- you know. That's right. But, again, this has gone so far. The pendulum has swung so far the other way that we now have a reality star that's making a mockery of Republican politics, making a mockery of what this country stands for. What conservatives stand for?

[12:50:12] And Mitt Romney pointed that out. He did a record --

BANFIELD: Did he miss the mark? Did he miss the mark by leaving out that big piece of what those supporters need, want --

HOOVER: Ashleigh, Mitt Romney was not trying to speak to Donald Trump supporters.

SETMAYER: Right.

HOOVER: He was talking to everybody else who's in defense. And who wonders, is this the end of the Republican Party? What do we do?

Here's the one thing I do think was missing. And in is the one thing that was missing from Paul Ryan. What's missing is, okay, great, you're planting a flag in the sand. Don't vote for Donald Trump.

But then what?

SETMAYER: Right what's the alternative?

HOOVER: What happens if he gets the nomination? What would Mitt Romney do?

What would Paul Ryan do? Do you support the nominee after having said never Trump, never Trump, never Trump? What happens?

BANFIELD: I tell you, these are dramatic dominoes. Everything falling afterwards, not the least of which will be on the stage ladies so I have to correct it.

Tara Setmayer, thank you Margaret Hoover. As always thank you to both of you.

We are just a few minutes away from Donald Trump actually speaking for himself.

Live at a campaign rally in Portland, Maine. We're expecting him to respond. That mi is hot. Those flags are there. And so far, not a word, not a

character on twitter from Donald Trump about what Mitt Romney just did to him.

Will it all come out on that microphone instead?

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:55:19] BANFIELD: There's some other news going on right now in that campaign. Not just Mitt Romney and Trump. The key player at the center of the Hillary Clinton e-mail probe has accepted a deal, and it came from the justice department.

Former Clinton staffer, Bryan Pagliano has been granted immunity for his cooperation with investigators. And you might remember that Pagliano was the staffer who set up Senator Clinton's private e-mail server when she was Secretary Clinton back in 2009.

And joining us live now about the implications of this, CNN's Joe Johns, reporting on the story.

Also with us, CNN Legal Analyst, Joey Jackson.

So Joe, maybe walk me through the mechanics of this, and also the political response to this.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's pretty simple. He got immunity, because he invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. He was under investigation on Capitol Hill. This was a congressional investigation. And he was in the position of having to face the feds.

So the Clinton campaign has been saying all of this information needs to get out in the open, and that was the message on Wednesday. Brian Fallon, the Clinton spokesman, releasing a statement saying, "Secretary Clinton has been cooperating with the Justice Department's security inquiry including offering in August to meet with them to assist their efforts if needed."

And Fallon also tweeted that the campaign disagreed with his decision not to answer questions from the Benghazi Committee. So they say they are pleased he's cooperating now. Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Fascinating stuff.

I want to bring in Joey Jackson, with the legal angle on the implications here.

Here's my guests. They want to ask every single question about what an I.T. guy sees, and what an I.T. guy is asked of you/

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's great guess.

BANFIELD: Is it a great guess? JACKSON: It absolutely is. But we should be clear when we talk about

immunity and we know what immunity is. That is you can talk about everything and anything. And be forthcoming as to any questions post and not face any prosecution at all.

But in speaking about immunity, we should also understand there is no pending indictment against the potential nominee for president. There has been no indictment against Pagliano, either. And so this is an immunity deal, because as Joe was mentioning, he was brought before Congress to testify, regarding Benghazi, and he said, you know what, self incrimination. I refuse to testify.

And predicated upon that, the fed said we want you to speak to us about this investigation, which could turn criminal. And in light of that, if you say all you know, you have nothing to worry about.

BANFIELD: If you are a loyalist, in a courtroom, you hear about hostile witnesses all of the time. But in an investigation, is it the same kind of dynamic that plays out?

He may be a hostile witness, he may gives them one-word answer. He may say, "I don't remember."

JACKSON: Well, you have to be careful. If you accept an immunity deal, part and parcel of that is that you're forth coming and that you're not be deceptive in any way.

Remember this, it's a crime to lie to the FBI. So when you've given an immunity, you're certainly given immunity as to the underlying facts concerning the investigation. But if you start lying to the FBI, it's punishable by five years in jail.

BANFEILD: Yeah.

JACKSON: So that stuff you need to know.

BANFIELD: Can is I ask you this, is "i don't know" a lie? I mean at least, you know, we know where I'm going with this.

JACKSON: Right of course.

BANFIELD: If he's not thrilled about the dynamic he's playing in here --

JACKSON: "I don't know, I don't recall".

BANFIELD: -- can they haul back that immunity and say, you know what, you stink.

JACKSON: No, an immunity deal is what it is. But at the same time Ashleigh, when you're provided immunity, it's certainly part and parcel that you're going to answer the questions posed. If you have knowledge as to them now it's legit that sometimes people don't know.

You know, when did you set it up, how did you set it up, how do you know about her usage of it, what did she communicate to you? All those fair game. If he has knowledge of something and talks about

it in an open, honest way, he has nothing to worry about. If you're wiggling and deceiving then you have plenty to worry about.

BANFIELD: It's very [inaudible] with checking because you don't know what they don't know and they don't know what you don't know --

JACKSON: That's right.

BANFIELD: -- they don't know what you don't know with (inaudible).

JACKSON: And feds often know a lot more than we think they know.

BANFIELD: Look at Joe Johns. He seems he's doing a ping-pong game between the two of us.

Joe, thank you sir do appreciate it. Just let us know if you hear any wind of what-- my expectation is this is all going to be very quiet. Very hush, hush. But if you do hear anything do let us know.

JOHNS: You bet.

BANFIELD: Joe Johns reporting for us. Thank you Joey Jackson as always for your analysis. Do appreciate it.

I got a couple notes I want to give you here. A quick programming issue.

Next week's kickoff to March Madness starts on CNN and it's not the kind you expect. It begins with Sunday's Democratic debate in Flint, Michigan. That's at 8:00 eastern time this Sunday.

And it will be followed by the premier of "Race for the White House."

Then Super Tuesday round two. And it does not stop there, folks.

Wednesday, the Democrats are going to take to the debate stage one more time. And the heats on in Miami this time.

It will be followed by the Republicans who do the same thing on Thursday.

It is all right here on CNN. Busy week for all of us, and that is the stage you need to stay tuned to. Just minutes from Donald Trump speaking live at a campaign rally in Portland.

[13:00:14] I'm going to turn things over to Wolf Blitzer now.