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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield
Rubio Voters Urged to Vote Kasich in Ohio; Carson Endorses Trump; Trump Rally Violence. Aired 12-12:30p ET
Aired March 11, 2016 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:00] MARGARET WASHINGTON, AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY PROFESSOR, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: To be happening today is pretty shameful.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Professor Washington, thanks so much for being with us and thank you for participating in these documentaries. Your voice in them is really a wonderful thing to have.
A programming note, you can see much more of the drama, "Race for the White House," Sunday night, 10:00 p.m., right here on CNN.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely.
Thanks so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.
BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.
The last of the debates before Super Tuesday part three are now over and done with and now the candidates are taking their messages to the voters as they begin their full-on sprint towards those pivotal contests ahead in five different states.
Let me get you up to speed at what's happening right now. GOP Senator Ted Cruz is making his pitch to voters in Orlando, Florida, while his rival, Senator Marco Rubio, is addressing his fellow Floridians in West Palm Beach. Rubio's home state may just be his last stand in this 2016 race. On the Democratic side, Senator Bernie Sanders is getting set to take the stage any moment in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Ping-ponging across the nation, they are, but we've got two big headlines that weren't ping-ponging. They were huge, like bowling balls they dropped. You just heard from Marco Rubio's communications director. Are you seated because this is going to take some time to digest. He's telling Rubio's voters in Ohio to vote for John Kasich. OK, you heard it right, he's telling Rubio supporters in Ohio to vote for the other guy, to vote for John Kasich. We'll get into that in a moment. It's a strategy, folks.
The other big headline, Republican Donald Trump has picked up a big endorsement of his one-time rival Ben Carson. You may have seen this live right here on CNN just a short time ago. These two men said they have put their differences, I guess you could call them, everybody else saying the past scathing attacks, behind him. Carson revealing there is another side to Donald Trump. Here's how he put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN CARSON (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, some people have said, well, why - why would you get behind a man like Donald Trump? I'll tell you why. First of all, I've come to - to know Donald Trump over the last few years. He is actually a very intelligent man who cares deeply about America. There are two different Donald Trumps. There's the one you see on the stage and there's the one who's very cerebral, sits there and considers things very carefully. You can have a very good conversation with him. And that's the Donald Trump that you're going to start seeing more and more of.
We buried the hatchet. That was political stuff. And, you know, that happens in American politics.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When Ben called, he didn't say, oh, would you do this, would you do that. He just wants to help. And he feels strongly about what's happening. And you see the kind of crowds we get. We get crowds that are amazing and record-setting. I don't think there's ever been anything like it. Well, I mean, it's on the cover of every magazine. There's never been anything like it. So, Ben sees that and Ben's going to have a big, big part.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: OK. So a lot to digest. I said so. We're going to figure it all out right now with CNN's chief political correspondent joining me live, Dana Bash, fresh off the debate stage last night. She's live in West Palm for us right now. Also with me, center stage here, is political analyst for CNN, David Gergen, and CNN "At This Hour" anchor, John Berman, who did the big break moments ago on your show.
Let's do that one first since we have such a cornucopia of things to talk about.
John Berman, really, Marco Rubio's chief director of communications putting it out there on the live TV that Rubio supporters should, in fact, go for the other guy, but only in Ohio?
JOHN BERMAN, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AT THIS HOUR": So this is what happened. Alex Conant, Marco Rubio's communications director, was talking to Kate Bolduan and me saying that, in Florida, if you support Ted Cruz and if you support John Kasich, if you're one of those voters, really your only chance to beat Donald Trump is to vote for Marco Rubio. So then Kate and I started asking him, well, what about Marco Rubio voters in Ohio? Are you then saying that Marco Rubio voters in Ohio should vote for John Kasich? And what Alex Conant said, clearly, and we went after him, you know, twice on this was, yes, he said, I'm only stating the obvious, but John Kasich, the governor of Ohio, has a greater chance of defeating Donald Trump in Ohio than anyone else. And Kate flat out asked, you know, are you saying that Rubio voters should support John Kasich? He goes, yes, I'm only stating the obvious. And this is, to a large extent, what the never Trump movement with
folks in this broader movement had been saying all along, which is that, you know, we have to take out Donald Trump where we can and use the advantages we can. And that means strategic voting. Rubio in Florida, you know, Kasich in Ohio. But it was fascinating to hear.
[12:05:04] BANFIELD: Yes. Yes, I - this is so through the looking glass that I need a new set of glasses.
Dana Bash, I am not for a moment going to suggest that John Berman and Kate Bolduan, two of the best in the business, misheard this twice. So let's take it to you, because you've got new reporting on what Rubio himself has just said.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: But wait, there's more.
BANFIELD: Oh, gosh.
BASH: There - there definitely is because John Berman and Kate Bolduan's interview and, more importantly, Alex Conant's response went viral immediately. And the very first question to Marco Rubio , who, as you can see, I'm talking at a low level, not - trying not to be disrespectful, but, Marco Rubio, the very first question he got was about this. And he echoed what his spokesman said, no surprise. He said that it clearly - Kasich has a better chance than I do in Ohio. And if a voter thinks Kasich can stop Trump, then that's what they're going to do. And he echoed that in a - in several different ways.
So just like John Berman said, this is a strategy and it is a game of political chess, like we haven't seen in a very long time. Everybody understanding that they - that they have different strengths in different states. And effectively what the Rubio campaign and Rubio himself is doing is releasing (ph) his voter and encouraging them to go for somebody else -
BANFIELD: Wow.
BASH: For one purpose, to try to stop Donald Trump.
BANFIELD: Stop Donald Trump, of course.
Dana, stand by for a moment.
Before I ask you, David Gergen, if you are having trouble digesting this, I want to actually see this. We've turned that sound around for the moment where John and Kate were doing this interview with Alex Conant about Rubio's voters. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Any vote against John Kasich in Ohio is a vote for Donald Trump?
ALEX CONANT: Yes, I mean, look, there's no question that John Kasich has the best chance to beat Donald Trump in Ohio. And right now I think it's vital that we stop Donald Trump. BERMAN: So you want all your voters, all Rubio voters in Ohio, to vote for Donald Trump - I mean all Rubio voters in Ohio you want to vote for John Kasich?
CONANT: I - I - I'm just - I'm just stating the obvious that John Kasich is the one person who can beat Donald Trump in Ohio, just like Marco Rubio is the one person that can beat Donald Trump here in Florida. So if you're a voter and Marco Rubio is not necessarily your first choice, if you like John Kasich and - or you like Ted Cruz and you're here in Florida, you need to vote for Marco Rubio because he's the only one who can deprive Donald Trump of those 99 delegates. And if we stop Donald Trump here in Florida, we can stop him in Cleveland. He will not be the Republican nominee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, there is that tiny little quid pro-quo. By the way, all Kasich voters should be voting for Marco Rubio here in Florida.
But, David Gergen, he said this is stating the obvious. If you look at all the polls, it is stating the obvious. Marco Rubio didn't have a snowball's chance in you know where to get elected in Ohio. But my bigger question is this, is there a bigger collusion going on between Mitt Romney and some of the establishment Republicans with, say, Rubio's campaign and Kasich's campaign to stop Trump?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure. What we're seeing is the prelude possibly to the Republican National Convention, when people start brokering in the primaries. You know the - he - Rubio is trying to get his voters to go over to Kasich in Ohio because he now understands his chances of winning in Florida are - have diminished from what they might have been. I think he's an underdog there in Florida. And as we've been saying here on CNN for several days, Kasich is now the man to watch because if Kasich - he's got the best chance of beating Donald Trump in a big state. And if he were to do that in Ohio, it could change - it could take a wheel off the Trump mobile.
BANFIELD: So even though there was that slight head shake from, you're not surprised by this?
GERGEN: I'm not surprised. I think it's a - I think it will be seen by many as an act of desperation. But, nonetheless, I think it's the right - I think it's the right strategy.
BANFIELD: Do voters really do this? Can they really do such a jig jag so fast? Can they get this message, say, just a few days to Super Tuesday three and say, well, our guy wants us to do this, so -
GERGEN: Sure. Well, the implied - the implied message here for Marco Rubio to John Kasich is, now you tell your voters in Florida to vote for me.
BANFIELD: A lot of telling -
GERGEN: Yes.
BANFIELD: A lot of telling going on -
GERGEN: And - and voters don't -
BANFIELD: And some ad campaign airwaves that are already slammed.
GERGEN: Right. And voters don't respond that well to people starting - or to be instructed on how they should vote.
BANFIELD: I didn't think so.
GERGEN: Yes. So it's - it's risky and that's why it has a desperation quality it to.
BANFIELD: Yes, it seemed a little pushy. And it's just weird. I man it completely upended my entire show. Look at the mess in front of me. Look at this mess.
GERGEN: Well, you really - yes, but you had the - you had the right frame for it, through the looking glass.
BANFIELD: Through the looking glass. I'm going to blind at this point.
Dana Bash, are - is she still with us? I know she's having to keep her voice down in the news conference.
BASH: I'm here.
BANFIELD: Dana Bash, I want you to swing back in for a moment and do a complete about face and I know you've got Rubio behind you but I do want to talk Ben Carson because that also happened. A little bit more through the looking glass. As I recall, it was only a few moments ago Donald Trump was calling Ben Carson a child molester, saying he was pathological and now he's talking about him being involved in the country's education in a Trump administration. Walk me through that one.
[12:10:00] BASH: You know, they both said, well, it's just politics and that they buried the hatchet and that this is what happens. It - it is certainly much more, I think, personal and graphic than we've heard from former opponents across the board, by the way, in this campaign. But for former opponents who then eventually campaign together, I covered Mitt Romney and John McCain's very intense fight right here in the state of Florida during the primary in 2008. It got pretty rough. And then they came together and unified. And then sort of the list goes on of past opponents who have done that.
It was a bit unusual, I have to say, to be in the room at Mar-A-Lago for that press conference, to witness this coming together, because these are two non-politicians, particularly Ben Carson. My understanding is that he and his family took the alleged dirty tricks from the Ted Cruz campaign very personally and it was very hard because they're not used to the kind of rough and tumble of politics.
But before I toss back to you, Ashleigh, I just want to say one thing that also happened here at the Rubio press conference. And it's along the lines of the stop Trump movement. I asked Senator Rubio about buzz in Washington, about whether or not Rubio and Cruz should get together and form a ticket because that would possibly be the only way mathematically to stop Trump. And his response to me was, this isn't "House of Cards." That this is real stuff. And that's not happening. And I said, well, would you be open to it? And he said no, he would not be open to it.
BANFIELD: Interesting.
BASH: So just to kind of give you a sense along the lines of what John and Kate were asking Alex about all of this through the looking glass, you know, yes, that is potentially something that would happen on "House of Cards," but this whole campaign has been life being stranger than fiction, right?
BANFIELD: Well, it has been. And, in fact, Michael Kelly, who plays a character on "House of Cards," is coming up later in the show.
BASH: Doug Stamper.
BANFIELD: To tell us that even this stuff is weirder than Doug Stamper, his character. He said if they had written this stuff into "House of Card," they would have been criticized by their viewers as having jumped a shark it's so crazy. So I'm glad that you gave me that segue.
BASH: He's right.
BANFIELD: But I'm not going to let you go, Dana. I don't know how you crossed the bridge from Palm Beach into West Palm so fast because you were just doing the news conference with Donald Trump for the endorsement. And I know that there was something odd that came up and I just want you to walk me through this, as well.
Donald Trump was having to answer your question about his comment that there are two Donald Trumps given the fact that he called, you know, he called Ben Carson, again, a child molester. He equated (ph) him as a child molester and that he was pathological and now he's getting his endorsement.
BASH: Yes.
BANFIELD: Let me play for our viewers your question and ask you about it in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: I want to go back to the - what Major asked and also what Tom asked about what Dr. Carson said this morning on the radio and here about the two Donald Trumps. So many people know you and like you because of your public persona. Is that the real Donald Trump or is it something that we don't see?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's a - it's an interesting question. I don't like to over analyze myself. But - but I will tell you that I try and be, you know, who I am. I want to be honest. Certain questions are asked of me and I give a straight answer as opposed to a politically correct answer. I know the politically correct business better than anybody.
BASH: Would you answer differently if you were in private?
TRUMP: No, I don't think so. I'd like to - I answer truthfully. Look, we're at a point where we have to start being truthful with our country. Like the question on Islam, I'm answering the question and I could - I know the exact answer. I could have given an answer the other night to Anderson Cooper which would have been perfect and nobody would have been talking about it. It would have been fine. But there is a problem. And we've got to find out what the problem is. We have to solve the problem. And you're not going to solve the problem unless you know there is a problem.
So I want to answer questions honestly and forthrightly. And even if I'm on a big stage with all of these tremendous numbers of cameras around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Well, Dana, he answered the question twice because from his lips was a perfect sound bite that could go into a campaign ad against him saying, I guess you could say there are two Donald Trumps. And just minutes later he said -
BASH: Yes.
BANFIELD: There's only one Donald Trump.
Dana, stand by. It was a great question. David Gergen's right beside us here.
I - I don't even know what to ask you. I mean it's that strange to see a perfect campaign ad against him from his own mouth and then he himself even makes it worse moments later by saying there's only one Donald Trump. What is there?
GERGEN: There's - there are at least two Donald Trumps. I think there are multiple Donald Trumps. And he's not alone. Every political leader I've ever known has had two or three different persona. They have one that they wear in public. They have another that they're often in private. Believe me.
BANFIELD: They won't announce it, though.
GERGEN: Well, they don't get into it, but we've gotten into all this psychic plumbing in recent years, so everybody gets very self- revealing.
BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE).
GERGEN: But we - when I first got into this business, you know, as a kid I worked for Richard Nixon. Let me tell you, Richard Nixon in private was an entirely different man than the Richard Nixon who went out into public.
[12:15:02] And with Donald Trump, I've actually taken a class of students in to see Donald Trump, not knowing he was going to run for president, about a year and a half ago and there were all like 20 Harvard students. And he was - he mesmerized them. He was calm. He was thoughtful. He was interesting. He was funny. And you - it became apparent that the Donald Trump we see in public, there's a - there's a theatrical persona that Donald Trump brings to the stage. And what we're not even seeing on the stage is the Donald Trump who makes deals in private when he's hard-nosed, he's tough, he's hard to do business with and that sort of thing. So I think there are multi - we all have different pieces of our personality -
BANFIELD: Yes, but when you go out into the public and say this is the real me, I tell it like it is -
GERGEN: Yes. Yes.
BANFIELD: I say what's on my real mind, not my politicians' mind.
GERGEN: Oh, I think that's -
BANFIELD: And then all of a sudden he announces, no, there is another Donald Trump.
GERGEN: Well -
BANFIELD: I just wonder if that will resonate with these people who like the real guy who shows up at those crazy rallies.
GERGEN: Well, I - I do like the fact that he's allowing himself to be more three dimensional. I think we need to know the other parts of Donald Trump. We need to know - and I think in the next weeks we're going to - the press will be pushing in on this, what's he really like to do business with? People I know who think he's delightful as company also think he's tough as hell to do business with, you know?
BANFIELD: He's been delightful to me personally for years -
GERGEN: Yes. Right.
BANFIELD: Until the one time I asked him a tough question and he turned in to a viper.
GERGEN: Yes.
BANFIELD: And he was evil. And his mouth was filthy. And it was a real telling moment. I - it was frightening. It was frightening.
GERGEN: That's interesting. That was really interesting. Yes.
BANFIELD: I mean, I truly was frightened.
GERGEN: Yes, I under -
BANFIELD: And I was taken aback by it.
GERGEN: Yes.
BANFIELD: And so I - I hope the voters do get a chance to see all the Donald Trumps.
GERGEN: The complexity - we need to know the complexity of the man.
BANFIELD: David Gergen, thank you so much. Dana Bash, hardest working woman, I'm telling you. I don't know how she did it, but you -
GERGEN: And terrific at it.
BANFIELD: And great at it. Great job last night, as well, my friend.
BASH: Thanks.
BANFIELD: Thank you to both of you. And my thanks to John Berman as well, getting that great scoop out of his program right before ours.
We have that other big headline today, as well, Donald Trump, just a little while ago, about his supporters doing some pretty despicable things in the audience. Never mind the name calling and the insults, we're talking about this stuff. Take a close look. These are not just face to face insults. They're spitting and punching, physically kicking, getting violent. What is behind this violent mob mentality? What is Donald Trump's response to it? And does he share in the blame? That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:21:04] BANFIELD: During a Florida news conference today, Donald Trump stood by and even underscored his punch a protester in the face comment of a couple of weeks ago. That's important because one conversation today is about how Trump's debate tone was a little softer and less aggressive last night. Watch this from just a couple of hours ago. It's Donald Trump talking about a Las Vegas protester that he said he wanted to, quote, "punch in the face."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've had a couple that were really violent. And the particular one, when I said, I'd like to bang him, that was a - a very - you know, it was a guy who was swinging - very loud and then started swing at the audience. And you know what, the audience swung back. And I thought it was very, very appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So he says, "very, very appropriate." That's one man's opinion. But what is definitely not appropriate is that the sometime behavior of Trump's fired up supporters in the crowd at his events and rally plenty of times they're caught on camera punching and shoving and spitting and screaming profanity. And just this week, on Wednesday, in fact, that sickening sucker punch of a protester at a Trump rally in North Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: That Trump supporter who jumped up and sucker punched that young man was eventually arrested the next day. He was also charged with a couple of things, including assault, but not before he actually bragged about think incident on camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MCGRAW, ARRESTED & CHARGED WITH ASSAULT: Yes, he deserved it. The next time we see him, we might have to kill him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: John McGraw, those are his quotes, "next time we might have to kill him."
I want you to look at this. Over the months, some of the more disturbing and violent things that have happened to people who have had the nerve to oppose Donald Trump in person at his public rallies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ON SCREEN TEXT: MARCH 11, CEDAR RAPIDS, IOWA
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In case you see the security guys. We have wonderful security guys. They said, Mr. Trump, there may be somebody with tomatoes in the audience. So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. I will pay for the legal fees, I promise.
ON SCREEN TEXT: OCTOBER 14, 2015, RICHMOND, VIRGINIA
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
ON SCREEN TEXT: NOVEMBER 21, 2015, BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA.
TRUMP: You can't do that (INAUDIBLE). Get him out of here. (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leave!
TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE).
ON SCREEN TEXT: DECEMBER 14, 2015, LAS VEGAS.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The First Amendment (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let him get up! Let - let him get up! Let him get up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your hands up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Light the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on fire!
ON SCREEN TEXT: February 22, Las Vegas.
TRUMP: He can't. They send their product - oh, bye-bye. Do you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were at a place like this? They'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks.
He's walking out like - big high-fives, smiling, laughing. I'd like to punch him in the face, I'll tell you.
ON SCREEN TEXT: MARCH 1, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY: Get out! You know, in the old days, which isn't so long ago, when we were less than (INAUDIBLE) make me have to be so nice, so nice. Let me tell you, so nice. They asked Ted Cruz at the debate, why do you think your (INAUDIBLE)? And he's like a basket case. Well -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[12:25:06] BANFIELD: OK. David Gergen is our senior political analyst. Joey Jackson is our legal analyst.
First to the - to the context, David Gergen. Decades you have covered and been in politics for decades. Have you ever seen any kind of climate like this?
GERGEN: These are the most outrageous incidents at rallies that I've ever seen. And let's be very clear about first principles as well as the law. The first principle of politics is, the candidates is responsible for setting the tone of his or her own rallies. And Donald Trump has gone about encouraging a sense of violence, a threat of violence in the air and actually saying - just in one of those clips he said, I miss the good old days when somebody who came in and misbehaved was carried out on a stretcher. I miss those old days. That's a direct incitement. You know, and if he can't calm this down, he has no business being in the White House. This is really, really important to how we govern ourselves.
I'll just tell you, there's one analogy and it didn't go as far. But back in 2008, in October, when Sarah Palin was campaigning, there were the threats of violence against Barack Obama. All sorts of people saying he's an Arab, I don't trust him, I hate him and so forth and so on. And John McCain finally - it took a while but he finally went to his crowds and said, stop it. He's a decent man. We're going to support him. I'm, of course, running against him, but I don't want these kind of arguments being made in public. It incites violence. And he did exactly the right thing. And that's what Donald Trump needs to do.
BANFIELD: Well, today, in his news conference, he talked about a Vegas protester swinging wildly and dangerous and said that the crowd responded as they should have and that he (INAUDIBLE).
GERGEN: That - then they had -
BANFIELD: And, by the way, that Vegas protester didn't. We went back to the tape earlier today - GERGEN: OK.
BANFIELD: About an hour ago. And the incident he was talking about in Vegas, that protester was not swinging wildly.
GERGEN: We have - and look at the clip you just showed out of Fayetteville that - where the white guy reached over - the man was being brought upstairs and escorted out, an African-American, and they - and the white guy just reached over and slugged him out of nowhere.
BANFIELD: We call it a sucker punch -
GERGEN: It's a sucker punch.
BANFIELD: Because the man was looking down at his feet as he got hit talking up the stairs.
GERGEN: And - and then he said - the man said, the next time he comes, we ought to kill him.
BANFIELD: We ought to kill him.
GERGEN: The next time we ought to kill him. That is a - is so outrageous. It needs to be stopped. And -
BANFIELD: Joey Jackson -
GERGEN: And if he wants to be president, he needs to stop it.
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
BANFIELD: There are so many people who say it's outrageous. There are some who say, is it illegal because we've seen rallies before - I think it was a family member through marriage of I believe it might have been Michael Brown getting up on top of a car saying "burn this b-i-t-c-h down."
JACKSON: Oh, yes.
BANFIELD: And there was the talk of the charge of incitement of violence.
I want to just read those words again that Donald Trump said from the podium at one of the rallies. "So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. OK? Just knock the hell - I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise, I promise."
Legally speaking, is this just bloviating or is this actually something that is dangerous and could be considered legally dangerous?
JACKSON: It's more bloviating. Let's start with the political and then let's go to the legal, or illegal depending upon which side you sit on.
The fact is, is that politics in general, of course, strikes at the very core, the heart of our beliefs as a society and, therefore, the people who are espousing their political views, there's something in us that it strikes to the core. Are you a Democrat? Are you Republican? And then you look at the figure. Is that figure polarizing? And, of course, you could suggest and say that Donald Trump absolutely is.
But now you get to what the law allows you to do. And the fact is, is that people can speak hatefully in this country. Now, I'm not opining as to the nature of hate or not hate that Donald Trump's speaking to. But what I'm saying is, the law protects a person's ability to talk about whatever they want and whatever method they want.
Now, David Gergen speaks to the tonal issue. That's an issue for voters to decide, do you want someone in the White House who has this and communicates a message that may be less than presidential? That's a political view.
But in terms of what the Constitution talks about, if you're talking about the incitement of imminent violence and you're talking about threatening and calling people to action right now to do something illegal, that's one thing. It's not protected by the First Amendment. But anything else that you want to say, certainly not anything else, but along the lines of being controversial that is protected whether we like it or we don't.
GERGEN: So has Donald Trump gone over the line, the legal line, or not gone over the legal line?
JACKSON: He has not in as much as - and, you know, I'm not here as a supporter or lack of a supporter of Donald Trump. That's a calculation the people have to make.
BANFIELD: No, I want you to just take those words where he incites his crowd -
JACKSON: Right.
BANFIELD: Knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. I'll pay your legal fees.
JACKSON: If you see someone. If you see someone.
BANFIELD: OK. OK.
JACKSON: Now, that would be distinguishable in the event that he said, that person there is doing something, get them out.
BANFIELD: Yes.
JACKSON: Now you're talking about getting people to incite violence. You're taking about people taking immediate action against someone. That's not something that's protected by the Constitution and that would be something that would be considered illegal.
GERGEN: If -
BANFIELD: Last point.
GERGEN: If somebody commits a violent act and knocks the hell out of somebody and really hospitalize - maybe even kill someone, does he bear responsibility, Donald Trump?
[12:30:03] JACKSON: The - the answer is, it depends upon the circumstance always. And in the event that he tells them to do it, then absolutely. Get that person. Get them now.
GERGEN: Yes, but if you set the tone - but if you set the tone and then it happens, don't you bear some - don't you bear -
BANFIELD: Or the environment that he
