Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Egyptian Airliner Hijacked; "Unstable" Suspect In Custody and No One Hurt; FBI Hels Belgians Analyze Phones and Drives; FBI Cracks San Bernardino Terror Suspect's iPhone, Drops Legal Fight; Trump Campaign Chief Charged With Simple Battery; Brussels Bombings Follow Years Of Plotting. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired March 29, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:02] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT starts at 7:00 p.m. Eastern time. Make sure tune in for that.

[12:30:06] And coming up, this is a surprise. It was not terrorism but plenty of terror-filled moments and people in the sky and on the tarmac today. Kind of what was behind that hijacking of the EgyptAir Flight 181 coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Passengers were terrified at least for a while but today's hijacking of an EgyptAir Flight to Cyprus is not being classified as terror, per se. Rather Cypriot officials are calling it the work of a "Unstable" and apparently unarmed Egyptian.

[12:35:08] Seen here in white, as he's being led away after surrendering and after releasing all remaining hostages on board the flight. Flight number 181 was bound from Alexandria, Egypt to Cairo, Egypt when it was diverted possibly. And get this -- over an issue with the hijacker's ex-wife.

The man threatened to set off a bomb vest. We know now that that was no suicide vest. It was a fake. We don't know the identity of the person seen escaping from a cockpit window but authorities say all of the passengers and crew are safe. In the video is nothing short of remarkable. Wow. Wow.

I want to take you to the Brussels attack now. The investigation. The FBI here in America now helping in Belgian counter parts to analyze cell phones and computer hard drives that were confiscated in those terror raids.

The U.S. official tells CNN that the Belgians made the request of American expertise and the devices in question have now been shipped here to be looked at and hopefully to be cracked.

Joining me with more on that our CNN Money Tech Correspondent Laurie Segall and CNN Intelligence and Security Analyst and Former CIA Operative Bob Baer.

Bob, I supposed to no surprise, we've seen this before that American expertise has weighed in on these investigations and sharing is a great thing. But there's been a lot of criticism in the last week about the counterterror operatives and their ability-- I guess their ability to actually do their jobs in Europe. Is this all part and parcel of the same thing having those phones sent here?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well Ashleigh, I think so. I mean, you know, imaging cell phone or getting erase data is fairly standard if the FBI does it very well. Any data that's been transmitted over a computer for instance, e-mails and what have you can be recovered from the hard drive, if the hard drive hasn't been destroyed. Why the Belgians don't have this technology it haven't been using it in past arrests is sort of worrisome. It's old technology and it tells me just how far behind the eight ball these people are.

BANFIELD: Although, Laurie, you can weigh in here, we're now hearing that the government is dropping its suit against Apple. It had wanted Apple to help get in to the San Bernardino killer's phones to get past their security passwords. And the government suddenly saying we don't need Apple anymore. We have done it. We can do it. We have the technology. And so maybe that lends to the notion that maybe the government is doing better than we thought here in the U.S. and could help those in Europe.

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECH CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it's interesting. But you got to remember, that it took them kind of pursuing the case in order to have a third party come forward and say "We can actually help you get in to the phone," because that's what happened. They said they put this out publicly and because of the worldwide publicity, that a third party, which they're not naming was able to say "Hey, we know how to break in to the iPhone 5C," which is what the San Bernardino shooter was saying.

And going along with the Apple and FBI case, you know, no one really kind of wins here, if you look at it. Because the Apple might say this is a victory, we don't have to build out software for the government. Then you look on the other side and it shows that they're -- they have vulnerabilities. But there still are ways for law enforcement to exploit those vulnerabilities. The question a lot of people are asking now, will the government actually go to Apple with this information and say "Hey, we found this exploit. Here's what it is." Or will they continue to use it as a tool like in what's happening, what could potentially be in the investigation in Brussels to potentially try to break in to the phone and use that, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yeah, and Bob, do you see anything as a benefit here? I mean, Laurie has been reporting on this for quite sometime, this dual between the government and between Apple. Now, they don't need Apple's expertise anymore. They may have the technology, they may have some third party that is beyond, you know, that's beyond their own capabilities. And perhaps that will be an excellent asset, not only to counterterror here in the U.S. but to Europe as well. And aren't we all fighting the same big battle?

BAER: Oh, I think we are. And look we have to remember the FBI needed to get in to that phone. As Farook was sitting in that gathering right before the shooting he got a text. Was it a text from his wife, was it a text from a third, you know, conspirator, we just don't know. The only way the FBI can figure this out is actually get in to his phone. I mean if they had to go to an outside contractor it's done all the time. And, you know, post -- you know, investigation like this you've got to have that data, exclude the possibility this was a wider plot. So I mean, and I can see why Apple wanted regarding this trade secrets but at the end of day the FBI is right. It needed to get in to that phone.

BANFIELD: All right, Bob Baer, Laurie Segall, thank you both, appreciate it.

And coming up tomorrow, on CNN a special report, Chris Cuomo revisits Paris months after those awful November attacks. He talks to the people who witnessed the horror firsthand and who got out alive. That's Wednesday night, CNN, 9:00 p.m. eastern, right here.

[12:40:08] And coming up next, breaking news in the race for the White House, Donald Trump's campaign manager has been charged with simple battery. The reaction is fast and furious.

Stay with CNN with more on that later.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Back to our top story. Breaking news, Donald Trump's campaign manager has been charged with simple battery. And it all stems from a video we're about to show you.

Former Breitbart reporter, Michelle Fields in the yellow jacket with her phone in her hand and the man accused of pulling her away from Donald Trump, apparently Corey Lewandowski. He was arrested this morning after turning himself in.

[12:45:03] His first court date is May 4th. Corey Lewandowski says he plans to plead not guilty and denies ever touching or even ever having met Michelle Field. Despite the video that you just saw.

The story is too wild for Ted Cruz and John Kasich not to weigh in. So of course they did. Cruz's campaign just issued this statement "Unfortunately, this abusive behavior seems to be part of the culture of the Trump campaign. Personal attacks, verbal attacks and now physical attacks have no place in politics or anywhere else in our society."

And then there's this from John Kasich's camp. "If he worked for John Kasich he would be fired. Campaigns, though, always reflect the values of the candidate. I know ours does."

And I've got a couple of tweets that just came out from Donald Trump, as well. He has quick to take to the tweet and here he is. "Wow, Corey Lewandowski, my campaign manager and a very decent man was charged with assaulting a reporter. Look at tapes, nothing there. That's just come out from Donald Trump.

We've got the tapes. We'll show you in a moment. But there's also this tweet. Why aren't people looking at this reporter's earliest statement as to what happened. That is before she found out the episode was on tape. In fact, there was a tape, there was an audio tape. There was a reporter close by from the Washington Post who had a reporter going and in fact very first reaction was holy S-H, did you just see what happened under the paraphrase that that hurt, I've never had that happened before. So there actually was instantaneous reporting of an incident on behalf of Michelle. That break for reporter.

I'm joined now by CNN Political Reporter, MJ Lee, CNN Legal Analyst and Defense Attorney, Danny Cevallos is here with me and CNN Senior Investigative Correspondent, Drew Griffin.

Drew, I want to start with you if I can this is not the first time that Corey Lewandowski found himself in trouble with the law. Can you take me back to the first episode?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I can and Ashleigh, he has experience on both sides of the law which we could get in to. But back in '99, I know that was a long time ago. But Corey Lewandowski was an aide for Congressman Bob Ney of Ohio. And he tried to walk inside the Longworth office building with a loaded pistol, three magazines and a holster. And he was arrested and he was charged with attempting to carry a pistol without a license.

Now, he was acquitted of the charge that apparently was some sort of mix up. But he arrested back then. And when he sued to get his gun back the Capitol Hill police said "No, you can't have that gun back." So -- it's not the first time that he has been arrested.

BANFIELD: OK, and then MJ, I just want to get folks to walk through the video because Donald Trump is already saying, "Look at the video. Look at the video. You could see nothing happens." So we're actually going to look at the video if we can. And then just walk me through what happened in this incident.

MJ LEE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yeah, I mean what we're seeing here, and again, this is a new video. We have seen other videos from different angles. But this is clearly shot from an overhead camera. And we see there Donald Trump with the red tie, Michelle Field in the white top. Corey Lewandowski, you can see his left arm reaching in this screen grab. And then this appears to be the incident where she sort of moves back a little bit. And of course she has alleged to the police in her report that she almost fell back. But caught herself when she alleges Corey Lewandowski grabbed her arm.

The new police report that we are seeing today, the arrest notice says that the police officer who interviewed Field actually saw the bruises on her arm or what appeared to be bruises.

BANFIELD: And she tweeted them out.

LEE: Yeah, but even several days later because she didn't go to the police department until a few days after the alleged incident.

BANFIELD: So Danny, the police report also, and by the way, whatever Donald Trump says the Jupiter police disagree. They think that that video does show something and its part of the reason why there was the arrest.

And Donald Trump also, his camp saying that Corey was not arrested. He was arrested. That's what they call it, even if you threw yourself in. If you're not allowed to leave, you are arrested.

So technically, it is absolutely an arrest, it's not true when they say it isn't. I just want to quote for you what one of the witnesses said. And this is the Washington Post reporter who is right nearby Ben Terris said, he confirmed with Field and it was indeed Lewandowski who grabbed her arm. He was showed her left forearm which revealed bruising what appeared to be several finger marks and he played a tape for her that was recorded. He had actually been recording.

And Field is heard to say "Holy S-H rhymes with fit. I can't believe he just did that. That was so hard. Was that Corey? You should have felt how hard he just grabbed me." And Teris also heard saying on that same tape. "He just like threw you out of the way like what threat were you?"

[12:50:04] That's on tape at the moment that this happened. So it wasn't though she made it up after. It's on his audiotape. So these are critical pieces of evidence. But at the same time there's always a robust defense and they got Kendall Coffey on this case which means they got one of the best.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They do. But in Florida, as with many states, the threshold for battery is so low. And I'm giving you an example. In Florida all you need is an intentional touching that is unconsented to. In Florida law is clear, you do not need to injure or harm the person to get an conviction. Just that intentional touching, without permission, will suffice.

And in many of these cases, it's often the case that you have the uncorroborated testimony of a complainant. This is a case by contrast where you have a complainant statement in addition to video evidence and then in addition to that you may have some audio evidence as well.

Now, if you are playing defense, your position is going to be, this is a crowded event. It was a bit chaotic. It's not like you are at a library. There are a lot of people and the law allows for a privilege, defense of a third party. If you reasonably perceive some kind of force about to be applied to even a third party you may use reasonable force in defending them. Essentially you can meet force with equal force. And that's probably going to be the defense here.

BANFIELD: Yeah, force with equal force depending on what exactly her intention was when she approached Donald Trump, which is difficult to see from those still photographs. So, thank you. Appreciate it. M.J. Lee, Danny Cevallos, thank you. And our Drew Griffin as well, thank you for that.

And I should note that coming up actually at the 1:00 hour, Donald Trump national spokesperson Katrina Pierson is going to join Wolf live and answer some of the question about this latest development, so make sure you stay tuned right away. It's coming in about in eight and a half minutes with my friend Wolf Blitzer stay tuned for that. Coming up next, just widespread and how deeply entrenched are all of those ISIS fighters in other countries beyond Iraq, beyond Syria, like in Europe or god forbid here this the United States? What are those cells? How big are they? And how wide is their reach? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:55:02] BANFIELD: It's no longer a secret that ISIS has been plotting attacks in Europe from the earliest days of the so-called Islamic state. The group has a wing specifically devoted to striking outside of Iraq and Syria, dispatching fighters with as little as one week's training and the vaguest of orders to just kill. Just go out and kill.

"New York Times" today quoting one such fighter referring to his handler and trainer. "He asked me if I was interested in going abroad. He said to imagine a rock concert in a European country. If you were given a weapon, would you be ready to open fire on the crowd?" That recruit was arrested in Paris before he could do any damage, but not the handler. That handler was Abdelhamid Abaaoud who eventually would return to Europe himself to oversee the attacks in Paris last November.

"New York Times" has poured over a year's worth of European court documents and case files to uncover some truly chilling details which I want to discuss now with our Intelligence and Security Analyst Bob Baer and our Military Analyst retired Army General James Spider Marks.

Bob Baer, first to you. When you read this account it's almost mind numbing the lengths that many of the European official went to not connect the dots. Often times even having an arrest of a guy with an ISIS flag and an actual commitment to fight for ISIS and suggesting it looks like just one-off attack. Is this a surprise to you?

BAER: No, not at all. The Europeans essentially have been denial Ashleigh right from the beginning, even back to 2012. So many of these attacks they could have linked together but they decided they were in sort of home grown, isolated. They discounted encrypted messages back to Syria. They weren't connecting the dots.

BANFIELD: Is it lazy or inept or both? What is it? Why would someone not bother?

BAER: You know its lack of imagination. They weren't reading ISIS propaganda that they were going to attack. They didn't understand the strategy and these people were sent abroad just said go kill. We're not going to keep in touch with you every day and looked at old technology with telephone intercept and e-mail intercepts and these guys had got off bad. They advance more quickly than the European police.

BANFIELD: So "Spider" Mark these guys apparently. And again in the case of one of these guys listed in it, the "Times" report named Reda Hame who was arrested before he could exact (ph) any of his damage, he had been given a week's training or so.

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Right.

BANFIELD: I mean he was really so fresh off the boat, as the old expression has it, and yet they are able to do this. They're able to train them in the use of grenades, kalashnikovs, body armor, they can help him to build bombs. They can do this fairly quickly and nimbly.

And I'm just wondering if now with so much attention turn after each attack do we as the global community get better enticing the flow of all the material that they need, but also the training capabilities.

MARKS: Yeah, Ashleigh. It's very, very tough, you know, the old expression if you want to get out of your box, maybe you want to build a bigger box.

So what we have is a thing called mission orders. Where within this large, broad spectrum, you can do a lot of damage as long as you kind of just execute at your own time schedule and how you want to execute.

So the training can be minimal, at least some familiarization, so you don't harm yourself, but then, so that you can at least execute your task but then you move in to this area where it's kind of vague. All you have to do is go to a soccer match. All you have to do is go to a concert, all you have to do is go to a very soft target and upon your own command execute this task.

So the training only is necessary so that you can execute your task. It is not very refined. It doesn't have to be. There isn't necessarily a real tight sequencing of events. Although in many cases what we have seen is there is command and control.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

MARKS: But it's within this very broad sentence.

BANFIELD: Command and control. They even have a code name for the leader. It was dad.

MARKS: Dad.

BANFIELD: I believe it was called dad.

MARKS: That was the handler.

BANFIELD: Yeah.

MARKS: That's exactly correct.

BANFIELD: So Bob, I'm getting mixed messages. Because so often what we have heard is that they suggest a one-off attack. You know head in to a crowd with a knife or even a rock and do what you can or drive your car in to a crowd. And yet, we are still seeing these coordinated attacks that have, you know, upwards of 30-plus dead and 200, 300 injured. So it's like they are doing both.

BAER: You know exactly. I mean, General Mark which is absolute right. I mean, well look at Paris. Let's go back to there. That was a synchronized attack with speed. It's maneuvering and bounding. And these guys knew what they were doing there, hitting multiple attacks to tie up Paris police and Abaaoud clearly in my mind had some sort of combat training to coordinate this. There were multiple teams, explosives and machine guns and you see this. So they can do both. They can shoot up an airport. Sent send two suicide bombers in to an airport or they can actually close down a city like Paris using commando style tactics.

[13:00:06] All right, Bob Baer thank you for that. Spider Marks, thank you as well.

MARKS: Exact and sure.

BANFIELD: And thank you everyone. Stay tuned my colleague Wolf Blizter with some big breaking news right off the top of his program. He starts now.