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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield
A look at the Campaigns of Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders; Manson Family Member Leslie Van Houten up for Parole. Aired 12-12:30p ET
Aired April 15, 2016 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:00:14] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Happy Friday. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.
The Democratic candidates for president, one of them is not even in the country today, and the other is heading for a state that doesn't even vote for two months. Senator Bernie Sanders in Vatican City right now as we speak, and he's not meeting the pope, who is busy with a trip of his own. But Sanders is attending a social and economic conference there and he told reporters why he made this trip today instead of working for much-needed votes in New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe that the pope has played an historical and an incredible role in trying to create a new world economy and a new vision for the people of our planet. And what he is saying is that we cannot continue to go forward when so few have so much and when greed is such a destructive force, not only in the United States, of course, but throughout this world.
So this is - I have long been a supporter of the economic vision of Pope Francis, his views on climate change have played a profound role. Let me tell you, I'm a member of the Senate Committee on the environment. Pope Francis' encyclical has played a profound role in turning many people's minds around about the urgency of the moment in terms of dealing with climate change. So when I received this invitation - yes, I know it's taking me away from the campaign trail for a day. But when I received this information, it was so moving to me that it was something that I could just simply not refuse to attend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And Hillary Clinton, before departing for California later today, talked up her public housing and economic plans at a home for senior citizens in Harlem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As part of my agenda, I will work as hard as I know how to provide more funding for public housing and we're going to also look at how we connect that to broader economic development efforts so that we are looking, not just at housing apart from everything else, but housing, health, education, jobs, opportunities. I want to help lift up everybody. We can rise together if we have the right plans and the will to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All of this while we're all reeling from last night's fierce Democratic debate. Check out some of the down and dirty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, MODERATOR: No, no -
CLINTON: If we can raise it to $15 in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle, let's do it.
BLITZER: Secretary -
SANDERS: (INAUDIBLE) was I talking?
BLITZER: Secretary, the viewers - if you're both screaming at each other, the viewers won't be able to hear either of you.
SANDERS: OK.
Does Secretary Clinton have the experience and the intelligence to be a president? Of course she does. But I do question her judgment.
CLINTON: President Obama trusted my judgment enough to ask me to be secretary of state.
ERROL LOUIS, CNN MODERATOR: Do you regret your advocacy for the crime bill.
CLINTON: My husband has apologized. He was the president who actually signed it. Senator Sanders voted for it.
LOUIS: But what about - but what about you, senator?
SANDERS: Secretary Clinton called them out. Oh, my goodness. They must have been really crushed by this.
DANA BASH, CNN MODERATOR: The question was about the transcripts of the speeches to Goldman Sachs.
CLINTON: When everybody does it, OK, I will do it.
SANDERS: Secretary Clinton, you just heard her, everybody else does it, she'll do it. We will release our taxes. Jane does our taxes. We've been a little bit busy lately. You'll excuse us. (INAUDIBLE).
CLINTON: Well, you know, there are - there are a lot of copy - copy machines around.
BLITZER: Senator, when are you going to release - when?
SANDERS: Unfortunately, I remain one of the poorer members of the United States Senate, and that's what that will show.
CLINTON: Well, Senator Sanders doesn't agree with how you are approaching something, then you are a member of the establishment.
SANDERS: Interesting comment, but she didn't answer the question.
CLINTON: I did. That's the way we're -
SANDERS: No, you didn't. My -
CLINTON: Yes, I did.
SANDERS: I think we're going to win this nomination, to tell you the truth.
CLINTON: (INAUDIBLE) is great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joel Benenson is the chief strategist for Hillary for America.
Joel, the newest "Wall Street Journal" poll showing Clinton with a massive lead in New York. The lead, though, is much smaller when you look nationally. So is she going to California today because she's so confident she's going to win New York?
JOEL BENENSON, CHIEF STRATEGIST, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: No, I think you have to when you're campaigning in primaries, you have to always mix in some other states. We do feel very confident about New York, but this has been a pattern throughout. Neither candidate has camped or decamped at any one state at any time. That's the nature of the calendar. You know we've got five states coming up the week after New York, a few in May and then a couple in California - a couple in June, including California. So that's pretty normal and I think both candidates are, you know, continuing to try to mix other things in with their schedule. Nothing extraordinary about that.
[12:05:11] BROWN: Including Bernie Sanders, who is in Vatican City today instead of New York City.
BENENSON: Yes. Yes.
BROWN: What are your thoughts on that?
BENENSON: Look, I think everybody shares the admiration for Pope Francis. He has been a powerful voice for justice, social justice, since he was installed as pope. I know he's been a critical voice, embracing climate change, as Senator Sanders noted, and he is - you know, the Vatican is one of the signatories to the climate pact in Paris that 195 countries, including the United States, obviously, signed on to. A very important climate pact, which Senator Sanders didn't address. He's been critical of it to date. I know he's a big advocate for climate change. But there's no question that the pope is someone that people around the world are admiring for his message on social and economic justice. BROWN: Right, but the pope's not at this conference. He won't be
meeting with Bernie Sanders. Does the Clinton camp look at this as an opportunity, the fact that he's not in New York campaigning, and is in Vatican City?
BENENSON: Look, we're - we're running our campaign as planned. I think we - we mapped out our schedule according to how we needed to campaign in New York and what we needed to do to win here. And I assume Senator Sanders mapped his schedule out the same way. I'm not going to criticize him for going there. I think it - it's fine for him to go there, as I said, but we're doing what we have to do to win New York and wrap up this nomination by continuing to build on our lead of pledged delegates, which is truly nearly insurmountable at this point for Senator Sanders to catch us or certainly overtake us. I - that's just not in the cards. The math is the math and we're going to keep winning delegates in states along the way here.
BROWN: But how concerned are you about the polls coming out showing the gap much narrower between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders nationally?
BENENSON: Yes. Pamela, let me - let me say, I've come a lot on public polls in my career as a very successful pollster in presidential campaigns. National polls that are ignoring the numbers of people who have voted in this primary, you know they polled nationally but we know where the numbers are. We've won 57 percent of the votes casted in these primaries. For them to arrive at that, they're just not talking to people who have already voted. So when you have hard data and hard facts, like we've won 2.5 million more votes and 57 percent of the votes cast in the popular vote so far, I don't put much stock in those public polls that are trying to simulate something when, you know, two-thirds to three quarters of the Democratic primary voters have already voted, so it's not relevant.
BROWN: OK. I've got to ask you this -
BENENSON: Sure.
BROWN: Because last night, you know, Bernie Sanders addressed the fact that Hillary Clinton is not releasing the transcripts from her paid speeches. This is what he said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Secretary Clinton, you just heard her, everybody else does it, she'll do it. I will do it. I am going to release all of the transcripts of the speeches that I gave on Wall Street behind closed doors. Not for $225,000. Not for $2,000. Not for two cents. There were no speeches!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right, so there you heard him. He says, OK, fine, I'll release my speeches. She's asking for - for that basically until she releases hers. So when will that happen? Because this is going to be a question continually asked until she does. BENENSON: Well, here's another thing that we heard last night, which
is there are no tax returns. We heard last night -
BROWN: OK, that's a separate issue and he said those are coming out today, so let's focus on the issue at hand.
BENENSON: No. No, it's not. I think what he said - he's been saying for months they're coming out.
BROWN: He said they're coming out today.
BENENSON: Pamela, I'm going to try to finish my answer. He said they are. He said before they'd be coming out soon. We've heard it over and over again. Here's the fact. I've covered - I've been involved in four presidential campaigns. I have followed them my whole career as a journalist before I was in the business of politics. There are only two candidates I can recall running for president who haven't released their tax returns. Bernie Sanders is one of them, Donald Trump is the other one.
BROWN: OK.
BENENSON: Look, here's the fact. You want to talk about transparency and openness, let's - you know, Secretary Clinton has released her tax returns throughout her career in public service. They are posted on our website. We're, you know, anxiously awaiting Senator Sanders to meet what has been a standard for presidential candidates for decades.
BROWN: OK, so - so if those are released today, his tax returns, will Hillary Clinton release those transcripts of her paid speeches?
BENENSON: Look, Secretary Clinton said when others in the race, and that includes people in both parties, release all their transcripts, then she'll look at releasing all of her transcripts.
BROWN: She'll look at it?
BENENSON: I don't think - there are people - there are people in this campaign, aside from her, who have been giving speeches, who have not been asked, haven't been pushed, haven't been pressed to release their tax returns. It's a reasonable question to ask if everybody's going to have the same standard or not on tax returns and on transcripts.
[12:10:05] BROWN: But, Joel, just looking at this, I mean the fact that she's not releasing a transcript, whether or not it's fair that she's getting more pressure than others, feeds into this perception that she's not trustworthy. Don't you think this - just put this to bed if she has nothing to hide with these transcripts?
BENENSON: Oh, I think Senator Sanders actually put it to bed last night. He was asked very specifically in a debate after - through innuendo and insinuations that there was some tradeoff between her speaking fees and doing things for Wall Street. And he was asked point blank if he could name a single thing that she had done to aid and assist Wall Street and he couldn't come up with anything. And the question here is very simple - are you fighting to rein in Wall Street? And the answer is, yes. Hillary Clinton has a plan to do it. When Bernie Sanders was asked about this by "The Daily News" what his plan was, he couldn't come up with an answer. When he was pressed -
BROWN: OK, but -
BENENSON: The answer he came up with was Hillary Clinton's answer. And so if you want to know who's going to rein in Wall Street with tough regulators, the answer to that question is Hillary Clinton and it's always been Hillary Clinton.
BROWN: But for people to make that informed decision, don't you think it's important for them to look at all the material that's out there, including the transcripts of her - of her paid speeches?
BENENSON: You know, I give voters a lot of credit, Pamela. I never underestimate the voters. Voters in this primary have heard Senator Sanders level this attack for months. And I think they're - they are listening to it. They're listening to her plans and how she'll actually get things done. And there's a reason why we have 2.5 million more votes than Senator Sanders, 1.4 votes than Donald Trump. Senator Sanders a million fewer votes than Donald Trump.
So I think there's a reason why voters are making the decision. They are hearing this debated over and over again and they have put their votes behind Hillary Clinton because they believe that she will do a better job of reining in Wall Street, taking care of banks that pose a systemic risk, if they do, that she'll actually get things done, which will make a difference in people's lives.
BROWN: OK.
BENENSON: As she said last night, it's not enough to diagnose the problem. You have to have solutions and the know-how to fix the problem.
BROWN: OK, Joel Benenson, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much for coming on.
BENENSON: Thank you.
BROWN: And up next right here on LEGAL VIEW, we're at the Bernie Sanders camp about those - we're going to ask them about those tax returns we were just discussing and press them just as hard as we did the Clinton camp. Be sure to stay with us. So much more to talk him about after that raucous debate last night. Jeff Weaver, coming up.
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[12:16:19] BROWN: Well, Bernie Sanders says he's going to release his 2014 tax returns today. At the debate last night, it was a hot topic. And when Hillary Clinton pressed him on it, here's what Bernie had to say. He talked about the fact that he will release those tax returns today. Jeff Weaver, Bernie Sanders' campaign manager, joins me now from New York.
Jeff, thanks so much for coming on. Let's listen to what Bernie Sanders said last night about his tax returns and then I'm going to talk to you on the other end.
JEFF WEAVER, BERNIE SANDERS' CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: Well, of course we will release our taxes. Jane does our taxes. We've been a little bit busy lately. You'll excuse us. But we will get -
WOLF BLITZER, MODERATOR: Senator -
SANDER: We will get them out.
BLITZER: Senator -
CLINTON: Well, you know, there are - there are a lot of copy -
BLITZER: Senator, when are you going to release -
CLINTON: Copy machines around.
BLITZER: When are you - you've been asked for weeks and weeks to release your tax returns.
SANDERS: Well, I think we've got one that's coming out tomorrow.
BLITZER: Which one?
SANDERS: Last year's.
BLITZER: 2014.
SANDERS: Yes.
BLITZER: What about 2013, all the other ones?
SANDERS: You'll get them. Yes, yes, look, I don't want to get anybody very excited. They are very boring tax returns. No big money from speeches. No major investments. Unfortunately - unfortunately, I remain one of the poorer members of the United States Senate and that's what that will show.
BLITZER: So, senator, just to be clear, tomorrow you will release the 2014 tax returns from you and your family?
SANDERS: Yes.
BLITZER: And what about the earlier ones -
SANDERS: Yes.
BLITZER: What's the problem? What - what's taking so long?
SANDERS: Yes, so -
BLITZER: Because you just have to go to the filing cabinet, make a copy and - and release them.
SANDERS: Well -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, Jeff, we talked to Joel Benenson from the Clinton campaign in the last block about releasing the transcripts of her paid speeches and he, of course, talked about Sanders' tax returns. So I ask you, are you guys going to hold up your end of the bargain today? Are you going to release those tax returns today? And why has it taken so long?
WEAVER: So the answer is, yes, the 2014 tax return will be released today - later today. But - so now you've heard Senator Sanders say he will release his tax returns. Now let's hear about Senator Clinton, whether she'll release her transcripts from all these speeches she gave to Wall Street firms, to pharmaceutical companies, to foreign companies and a host of others.
BROWN: OK, so that's a separate issue. On the tax returns, though, a lot of people are wondering, why has it taken so long? I mean the idea that he's been so busy doesn't really hold up when you look at Hillary Clinton. She released her tax returns. Why couldn't he do it sooner when people were asking and putting pressure on him so long for that?
WEAVER: Well, look, as he - as he explained, like many people in this country, you know, they do their taxes themselves. Jane Sanders does their taxes. I'm sure Secretary Clinton, given the complexity of her taxes and the amount of money that she brings in from speeches and other sources of income has an army of accountants doing hers. So that's the difference between the two of them.
BROWN: So when specifically can we expect those tax returns to be released? Can you give us an idea?
WEAVER: Well, the 2014 ones will be released later today.
BROWN: And what about the ones before that, as Wolf Blitzer asked?
WEAVER: Well, we'll get ahold of those and we'll get those out shortly. And then the 2015 ones will be given out as soon as they're completed.
BROWN: All right. So, Jeff, you know, instead of New York City, Sanders is in Vatican City today. He won't be meeting with the pope. In fact, the pope won't even be at that conference. So what is the motivation of this trip when there's such a critical primary just four days away?
WEAVER: Well, look, there are some things that are just - that transcend politics. Bernie Sanders has spent his life fighting for a moral economy, feels great affinity for the pope in terms of the pope's economic program. And when the Vatican invited him, he really wanted to go. And it was a personal decision and he decided to go.
[12:20:03] Look, the Clinton campaign's not going to be in - in New York tonight either. They're going to be in California at a $353,000 a person fundraiser. Let me tell you, if I had to make a choice between going to the Vatican and talking about a moral economy or sitting in California raising $353,000 per person, I can tell you which one I think is a more worthy trip.
BROWN: Right, but we're in the middle of a heated presidential race. In California there's a primary coming up there and so they're looking ahead, of course, to the primary there. But Bernie Sanders is down 17 points in New York according to the latest poll. Wouldn't his time be better spent on the trail this weekend to bridge that gap? Is he resigned to losing New York at this point?
WEAVER: Well, let's not believe everything we read. And let's be clear about the Clinton campaign's trip to California. This is not a campaigning trip. This is a fly-in for some quick big dollar cash. That's what that's about. That's not - she's not campaigning in California. She's campaigning at somebody's house with a small group of elite donors.
BROWN: OK. Well, Joel Benenson, we just spoke to him, he said that they're looking ahead to the California primary. So clearly you have different views. But you did not answer my question, is Bernie Sanders resigned to losing New York considering he's 17 points down in the polls?
WEAVER: Absolutely - absolutely not. And let me say, like I said, don't believe everything you read in polls. And, no, he is not. He has been in New York. He is fighting hard in New York. I think you saw last night's debate, of which he clearly won. He came out, the Clinton people used it as a slur, but let me tell you, Bernie Sanders is campaigning like a Brooklynite. He is working hard here in New York and he's running - running here to win.
BROWN: OK, Jeff Weaver, thank you very much for coming on. We do appreciate it.
WEAVER: Happy to be here. Thanks so much.
BROWN: Well, Manson family member Leslie van Houten stabbed a super market executive's wife around 16 times in the lower back in 1969 and now a parole board panel is recommending her release, but that's not the final word.
Also still ahead, former "Apprentice" stars competed to woo Donald Trump for a job and now they're saying he shouldn't get the most powerful job in the U.S. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:26:32] BROWN: Well, after 19 denials, a California parole board panel has recommended the release of Manson family member Leslie van Houten. It's not a done deal yet. The full parole board will review the decision during the next four months and then could send the case to Governor Jerry Brown. It's a surprising move in a brutal murder case. Van Houten and others were convicted for the murders of super market executive Leno LaBianca and his wife Rosemary back in 1969. Well, she was sentenced to death, but one year later the death penalty was overturned. So to get a sense of just how heinous these crimes were, listen to Van Houten, in her own words, in the 1994 prison interview with Larry King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLIE VAN HOUTEN, MANSON FAMILY MEMBER: I went in and Mrs. LaBianca was laying on the floor. And I stabbed her.
LARRY KING: Where?
VAN HOUTEN: In the lower back, around 16 times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So Charles (INAUDIBLE) stabbed Mrs. LaBianca with a bayonet and then handed a knife to Van Houten. Now she's being described as a model prisoner who earned a college degree.
For the legal view, I want to bring in CNN legal analyst Paul Callan, a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.
So, Paul, I mean, such a disturbing case here. Why is someone who was convicted and admitted her role in this crime that was so brutal considered for parole?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it's a lesson for people who think that when you hear life without parole that really you're going to get life without parole because it doesn't always happen. Now in this case, she, on her third trial, was sentenced to seven years to life. It wasn't a life without parole case. And so she's eligible for parole.
Now, we only hear about these high-profile cases. There's a lot of people that we don't hear about who do get paroled. It's rare, though, that you see somebody in such a really prominent case, as the Manson case, get a parole recommendation. So she's been recommended for parole, but it's still got to go through the process of going to Governor Jerry Brown. And I'm not so sure she will, Pam. And, you know, she was 15 when she was drawn into this life in Haight-Ashbury and started dropping acid and then eventually was seduced by Charles Manson and committed this brutal, horrific act of a stabbing murder. She stabbed her victim 14 times in the back. And so it's quite a brutal case.
BROWN: So then how can they make sure that if she is released on parole, which it's not a done deal yet though, but how - how can they ensure she's not a continuing threat? I mean if someone's capable of doing that, how do they know she's not going to do it again?
CALLAN: Well, she's been examined by psychiatrists. She's had medical exams. And they look carefully also at her prison history. Now, what's remarkable, I think, about Leslie Van Houten is that over, I think, 45 years in prison, she has not had a single violation filed against her for, you know, prison, you know, the violation of prison rules. Now that's very, very rare. People usually get into trouble in prison. You're in with a lot of other bad people. Fights are possibilities. So she's pretty much got a perfect prison record and the psychiatric examinations, the board - the parole board in California thinks she's no longer a threat. But ultimately it's going to be up to the governor. And I think, Pam, it's really a political decision.
BROWN: Right.
CALLAN: It's not a decision about, you know, whether she's a threat to the public.
BROWN: Right.
CALLAN: Is it - what message is being sent when someone like this is released? I'm not so sure that the public would be too happy about that.
[12:30:04] BROWN: I was going to say, presumably there would be a public outcry for her release. So how will that impact the governor's decision? So we will - we will wait to see how this all plays out. Paul Callan
