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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Examining Laws Regarding Running Away from Police; Early Voting Beginning in Some States; Candidates Prepare for First Debate. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired September 23, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:02] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: So to go back to the initial chase, I mean if this law have been in existence, Freddie Gray would never have been chased down, would not have been arrested, correct?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: OK, so a couple things, Ashleigh, the first thing is, is this, the federal standard and then states do what states do. And so it's important to point out to viewers that the United States Supreme Court has ruled on the issue, and what they said back in 2000, in a case called Illinois versus Wardlow is that you're in a high-crime area and you're running from the police, that establishes a reasonable suspicion to be confronted.

Now, Massachusetts, right, a different state, of course, enact they can enact laws as long as they're not, you know, inconsistent or supersede the Supreme Court. But essentially what Massachusetts has said was that, look, running from the police alone. And in this case it's important to understand that the African-American suspect at issue was a mile away from the crime scene, a half an hour later. And so they, of course, the Supreme Court, is saying that's the essence. They didn't say this, but that's the essence of profiling. There was a non-description given other than there were three African-America males involved.

And the court essentially said, so what? Because it's an African- American male and you see one a mile away you can chase them and arrest them? And so essentially what ends up happening, Ashleigh, is that no matter what jurisdiction though you need some articulable basis to stop, to approach and arrest someone other than, you know, potentially that they're running away or that they break eye contact with you.

BANFIELD: Right.

JACKSON: And it's important, the last point is because if you get something when you arrest them, they have a gun, a weapon it gets suppressed that's means it gets drown out, it doesn't light of day and the case gets dismissed.

BANFIELD: That's the fruit of the poisonous tree, right?

JACKSON: Exactly.

BANFIELD: That's the fruit of the poisonous tree is that you might have got an actual crime, but because you did the wrong thing to get there, you're not allowed to go there.

JACKSON: Precisely right.

BANFIELD: All right, so Alexis, the wording of the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruling it stuck out and it was significant. They actually used the words in the opinion, recurring indignity. And that's the same words that the Black Lives Matter movement has used. So I'm curious about your perception as to whether the Black Lives Matter movement has actually influenced law and justice?

ALEXIS JOHNSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PERCEPTION INSTITUTE: Well, I think -- I think absolutely Black Lives Matter has shifted this conversation in an inordinate way. I think the piece about indignity to me just speaks about this fundamental question of humanity, and I think that's what Black Lives Matter is asserting. That's what all of us were looking at cases are wondering it's like why are we not seeing the humanity of African-American men in particular?

And using words like dignity, right? That's Something that's fundamental, that's core to how we think of ourselves as human beings, right? As evolved human beings. The fact you are taking our dignity away by this perpetual harassment is meaningful and for the court to recognize that that actually has an impact and demoralization on a person and on a community I think is really, really important.

BANFIELD: Yeah. Guys, thank you so much. Alexis Johnson, Joey Jackson, interesting case and I think that's going to be discussed a whole heck of a lot in the coming months, days and years. Thank you to you both. Appreciate it.

[12:33:13] Coming up next, 6.5 weeks until Election Day. You say no, but actually begins today, in fact, in some states, tomorrow in a few other states. How big a deal, by the way, is early voting? It's huge. With the debate now just days away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: If you needed anymore reminders that the election is coming close, like 46 days away, we're only three days away from the first presidential debate. That tells you that the election's coming. But early voting actually begins today in four states in our union, Idaho, Minnesota, South Dakota and Vermont. And then tomorrow, three more states kick in with their early voting. With that getting under way that makes Monday's debate all the more important. And all of this in light of some brand new national poll numbers showing the race is tightening.

According to the latest CNN poll of polls, that's when you combine them all, Clinton is up by three points. That's small. But there's no margin of error in the poll of polls. Meantime, both candidates will be trading views on National Security and potentially give their takes on the controversial police-involved shootings in Charlotte and Tulsa. They may have given a sneak peek preview of what to expect, in fact.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Those peddling the narrative of cops as a racist force in our society. And this is a narrative that is supported with a nod by my opponent. You see what she's saying? And it's not good.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There is still much we don't know about what happened in both incidents. But we do know that we have two more names to add to a list of African-Americans killed by police officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So I want to discuss these comments and this whole thing that's coming our way, like a train on Monday. Political Commentator for CNN Ryan Lizza along with Political Editor of TheRoot.com, Jason Johnson. So Ryan I'm going to begin with you.

[12:40:04] How big a deal is this week in race-related crime and the dynamic between police officers and the African-American community? How big a dynamic will that be on Monday for these two candidates?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it'll be pretty significant, because both, you know, candidates frankly have an incentive to talk about this for both candidates it's a significant issue. But obviously, there are differences between them on this.

For Hillary Clinton, she has really come out as a defender of the Black Lives Movement and African-American activists who are, you know, who are -- have deep concerns about policing in this country, and it's become a very important issue in her campaign.

You know, frankly in a way that it would not have been, I think, for instance, in the '90s for a Democratic candidates who would have treated much more carefully on an issue like this. It shows how the parties really have changed. And, of course, on the other hand, Trump has positioned himself as a, you know, a stalwart defender of the police, you know, coming out basically saying that the police are rarely wrong in these instances.

So I think they could have, you know, quite an intense debate on this, and I'm very sure that, you know, Lester Holt, the moderator on Monday, you know, will bring is up. There are real differences here in the way they view this issue.

BANFIELD: Lester is masterful, He is just terrific at this, and I expect he will do a wonderful job. Biased though, I used to host a show with Lester Holt.

So let me ask you this Jason, I want to go to some polling numbers because we've been watching, you know, sort with bated breath what's happening in the swing states. And in Colorado and Virginia there's a dynamic playing out and I don't think the Clinton camp is going to like it.

In Virginia, this is the state of her running mate as well. Her lead is actually just up by six points. Now you might say oh, that's terrific she's up by six. But that's a shrinking lead. She's been doing much better in Virginia than that. And then in Colorado, She's only up by two points. Yes, she's leading in Colorado, but she was at one point leading much more significantly in that state. I think she even pulled her ads. I can't remember when but she pulled a lot of her ads from Colorado ...

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICAL EDITOR, THEROOT.COM: That's right.

BANFIELD: ... thinking we were good, you know, on Colorado don't waste the money we're good there.

So Jason when you look at shrinking swing states, which are critical and then you have something like Georgia and Iowa, where Trump is pulling ahead by seven points, Monday becomes super critical. Are you then aiming for swing states in how you perform or are you not bringing that into the factor when you go to the debates?

JOHNSON: Ashleigh, everything is a factor on this debate. I have said, this is like 12 super bowls and the world cup combined. This is like JFK debating Abraham Lincoln. This will be the most watched presidential debate in history, because I really do think that both of these candidates are going to end up get a boos out of this, and this is important to remember. I say this is a political scientist all the time.

Any polls, where undecideds are more than 4 or 5 percent aren't necessarily that reliable. If Clinton's got a lead 42 to 39, that means you got way too many undecideds. And most of the polling that we've seen especially in places like North Carolina and Ohio is that the undecideds, 70, 68 percent of them tend to break towards the Democratic Party.

And so what I think is most important for Hillary Clinton on Monday is, if she does a good performance we're going to see shrinking polls for Gary Johnson, shrinking polls for Jill Stein. Her leads will increase. If Donald Trump does very well then I think he may be able to solidify his leads in places like Georgia and Ohio, and that limits the number of places that Hillary Clinton can guarantee herself a 270 electoral vote victory.

BANFIELD: And by the way that degree you have in political science, totally underrated degree. I'm just here to say it. I also have this bias that that's why I agree, too. So thank you, Jason Johnson. You have represent. Guys, Ryan, thank you, Jason. See you Monday.

LIZZA: Thanks Guys.

JOHNSON: Thanks.

Up next, how do you prepare for what Jason just said, the super ball of politics? The debate of the century and any other hyperbole you can throw at this thing. What are Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump really doing to prepare? What does each one need to do, where do they need to go? What do they need to focus? How do they get under each other's skin? Hmm. That going to be good.

[12:44:21] Politics, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It's the face-off that we've been waiting for. Hillary Clinton/Donald Trump 80 to 100 million potential viewers. So, how are both of these candidates getting ready for Monday? Trump opted out of an Ohio campaign stop to prep, Clinton has postponed her campaign to Sunday -- or do rather excuse me, she postponed her campaign to study, big difference.

Meantime, the Clinton campaign steam is trying to figure out ways to get under Trump's skin. Might they be looking at moments like this, from the primaries?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Love.

JEB BUSH, FORMER (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You said in September 30th, that ISIS was not a factor.

TRUMP: Am I talking or are you talking, Jeb?

BUSH: I'm talking right now. I'm talking.

TRUMP: You can go back. You're not talking.

BUSH: I'm talking.

TRUMP: You interrupted me Jeb. Have you apologized Jeb? No. Am I allowed to finish?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, one at a time.

TRUMP: He speaks, am I allowed to finish?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead, Mr. Trump.

TRUMP: So again ...

BUSH: A little bit of your own medicine there, Trump.

TRUMP: Don't build up your energy, Jeb, but it's not working very well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, one at a time.

BUSH: Yeah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So Trump on the other hand is reportedly being advised to put his rival on the defense. By questioning Clinton's judgment especially when it comes to her private e-mail server. Here is how she handled that issue earlier this year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Republican front-runner Donald Trump says he's going to talk about your e-mails every single day, if he's the nominee, and out on the campaign trail. Democrats want to know, your supporters want to know if you're the nominee, how are you going to take him on?

CLINTON: I think that Donald Trump's bigotry, his bullying, his bluster are not going to wear well on the American people, and so I will look forward to engaging him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:50:09] BANFIELD: Let's talk to somebody who's really in the know. Patrick Griffin, has advised four presidential candidates, and helped with debate prep for President George W. Bush. Patrick, thank you for being here.

My question to you is, does Donald Trump come out and start throwing those labels. The labels that we had all through the primaries, he had lying Ted, he had little Marco, he had low-energy Jeb. Does he come out start calling her crooked Hillary or will that be sort of an affront on a stage like that?

PATRICK GRIFFIN, PREPARED PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH FOR PRIMARY DEBATE: Actually, that's the $100 million question to along with the audience. We're not quite sure which Trump shows up on Monday night. We can say this though, this entire debate is about exceeding expectations and overcoming objections. Both these folks have to do this.

Donald Trump may start sanguine and very reserved as we saw him in Mexico, but we also know that there might not just be one or another Trump that shows up. Both or more could show up. So I think the beginning of the debate might be different for the end. For Trump, its about being credible as president. For Hillary Clinton it's about being relatable. Both these folks have some work to do with their basis and most importantly with the folks in the middle.

BANFIELD: I love that you brought out the expectations because I got an e-mail in my in-box, from Sean Spicer, the RNC's Chief Strategist, and it was sort of a downplaying of expectations for Donald Trump. Let me read a piece of it, and by the way I'm not breaking, you know, anything with Sean. This was meant for press consumption.

He said "Few are expecting the same level of polish from a verbal gunslinger whose rhetorical strength is speaking to the heart and the gut of the American people. Donald Trump is new to the format. Trump's lack of formal political one-on-one debate experience gives Clinton a significant advantage." So the prep has begun in earnest if they're trying to lower expectations for him.

GRIFFIN: Of course. And that's what these things are always about. Look, Hillary Clinton's been in Washington for a long, long time. Someone suggests she's been there longer than the monument. At least that's Trump's claim. Hillary Clinton is a good debater. She's done this 40 times. She is also done this 90-minute format with Bernie Sanders over the course of last year. This is not new for her.

For Donald Trump this is a little different, right? This is 90 minutes, one-on-one, just with Hillary Clinton and a moderator. 90- minutes is long, long time to stand there and have very specific questions asked, which I rather suspect, Lester Holt will probably do.

BANFIELD: Does she need to come out, and skip the wonk part, which she's so good at, and then instead go for the moment and not go for a string of zingers?

GRIFFIN: So all of these debates are about "The Moments." right? The stuff that CNN and other folks in the media will pull out of this thing and run in clips again and again and again. We know those moments from the Reagan debate with Walter Mondale about age. We know about various things we can remember from debates. The quale comment with Lloyd Benson. All of these things are the things we remember well after the debates and will affect the next debate.

So if Hillary comes out and tries to spell every African country backwards that's wonkish that's not what the American people want to hear. They know she can do that. Hillary Clinton needs to be in the connection business, which she's not good at doing. She's got to get the Obama coalition to come out and vote for her and that has to do with her ability to speak to them.

BANFIELD: Patrick Griffin, great to have you. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

GRIFFIN: Thank you. Thanks Ashleigh.

[12:53:29] BANFIELD: And by the way, we're going to remind everybody, Monday night, Clinton and Trump facing off on the same stage. We're going to have live coverage of it on Monday starting at 4:00 p.m. Eastern Time right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN "PARTS UNKNOWN": You seem to be turning analyst. I mean we're actually talking about building a wall around our country. And yet you have been reaching out to people who don't necessarily agree with this Gaza, Iran, Cuba. I mean just wish that more Americans had passports. The sentence which you can see how other people lived, it seems useful at worst and incredibly pleasurable and interesting at best.

PRES. BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It confirms the basic truth that people for everywhere pretty much the same. The same hopes and dreams and when you come into a place like Vietnam and you see former American Vietnam Vets coming back. When you see someone like John Kerry or a John McCain, two very different people political and temperamentally but who were able bond in their experience of meeting their former adversaries.

And you don't make peace with your friends. You make peace with (inaudible).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Don't miss it. Wow, "Parts Unknown" starting Sunday night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And I have to say good-bye, not just for today for good.

This is the last edition of "Legal View" on CNN. I've had such a great time every day, 12:00 noon with you and with my phenomenal staff. Please, bear with me. Because these people are heroes. Christina and Sonya and Lindsay and Gus and Tanju and Chris and Alex and Robyn and Ariel, Natalie, Dave, Scotty, Laney, Jay, Adriana, you have been a joy to be with everyday. And I will miss you so much.

I'll also miss all of you out there. However, I'm going to be down a little bit and then on October 17th, brand new HLN show. I'm going to pop up at 8:00 at night. Primetime show, and I've got the name for you just in case you're looking through to find it.

It's called "Primetime Justice with Ashleigh Banfield." I really hope you'll join us on HLN, starting October 17th. I do have to send things over to Wolf Blitzer now.

[13:00:01] So this will be the last time I say, please stay tuned, because "Wolf" starts right now and the last time I say thank you for watching "Legal View".