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Cloning Claims Feed Junk Science; Alarming New Global Warming Predictions; A Look at Gadgets at Consumer Electronic Show

Aired January 11, 2003 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: Today on NEXT@CNN LIVE. Cloning claims and how they feed junk science.
Alarming new global warming predictions, fire up the debate.

The lowdown on downloading, and a bill that would legalize what some people call piracy.

And a live look at the coolest gadgets at the Consumer Electronic Show. All that, and more, on NEXT.

SAN MIGUEL: Hello, everyone, welcome to NEXT@CNN. I'm Renay San Miguel and NEXT is coming to you live from CNN Center. Starting next week we'll be on at 2 p.m. Eastern every Saturday.

So think if this as NEXT@CNN, version 2.0. This particular upgrade is all about taking the big stories of the week and telling them in a different way, through the prism of science and technology. Now that doesn't mean that this is going turn into geeks on parade, here. No how-tos on fixing hard drive but maybe a story on whether the government wants to be in your hard drive, that kind of thing.

There are not a lot of front-page stories out there that don't have some type of science or technology element to them. And our first story is a very good example.

You just heard from Leroy Orange, one of the men pardoned by Illinois Governor George Ryan. DNA evidence not involved in his case, but in the past few years post-conviction DNA testing has exonerated nearly 20 wrongly accused convicts on death rows across the country. And that has many rethinking the death penalty.

Joining us to talk about that is Dr. Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist and DNA expert; he joins us now from New York.

Dr. Baden, thanks for being with us today.

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good to be with you, Renay.

SAN MIGUEL: So, what role has DNA testing played, do you believe, in just this whole reexamination of in death row across the country?

BADEN: I think the exoneration is not only from death row but other convicted persons. Over 120, now, post conviction exonerations, because of DNA has thrown a spotlight on the fact that there are cracks in the legal system that science is now showing that have to be addressed.

SAN MIGUEL: What kind of advances are we talking about in DNA testing? Have we seen for the last five or 10 years?

BADEN: Well, the main thing in the O.J. Simpson case, I think, has brought it to public attention, above all else, is that DNA can be useful in exclusively identifying whether a person was present at a crime scene, whether a person has committed a sexual act, and whether he hasn't.

And in doing this the technology has developed greatly in the past 10, 15 years so that a single drop of semen, a single hair, a single blood, a single sneeze, can produce enough DNA so that it will be clear whether that individual was or was not at that scene.

SAN MIGUEL: What about the more practical applications of it. Is it cheaper now? Are more jurisdictions able to use DNA testing?

BADEN: Well, it is cheaper and it is faster, so that backlogs can be looked into. The old days of taking rape kits, and rape victims, and holding them until a suspect was identified, no longer has to be done. Because people can examine those rape kits right away, get an answer. Use it as an investigative tool. And not let the guilty run free, because, remember, every time there is somebody exonerated, who didn't do it, the person who did do it is still out there doing whatever he wants to do.

SAN MIGUEL: What if there are -- and if there are any mistakes to be made in the science of DNA testing, where would those mistakes be made? Would it be in the evidence-gathering phase?

BADEN: Renay, you're absolutely right. It is the collection, identification, preservation, of the evidence that can be mishandled and make mistakes. This was brought up in O.J. Simpson.

I think since O.J. Simpson, police departments across the country and across the world have taken training. Today, departments are much better at identifying, preserving, collecting evidence and getting it over to the laboratory so that mistakes in specimen handling, and mistakes in mixing up specimens, or letting specimens deteriorate are much less common today than they were 10 years ago.

SAN MIGUEL: Probably as a result of better training I would think, on the part of ...

BADEN: Much better training all around, prosecutors, police, crime lab people, doctors.

SAN MIGUEL: Dr. Michael Baden, forensic pathologist and DNA expert, thanks for coming in today. We appreciate your time.

BADEN: Thank you, Renay. SAN MIGUEL: Well, science and criminal investigation are also mixing in the case of Laci Peterson. The 27-year-old Modesto, California woman has been missing since Christmas Eve. Police are searching a Berkeley Marina, using a particular kind of sonar technology. Underwater recovery specialist Gene Ralston uses that technology. He joins us now on the phone from Boise, Idaho.

Mr. Ralston, thank you for your time today.

GENE RALSTON, UNDERWATER RECOVERY SPECIALIST: Good morning, Renay. Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: What exactly is side scanning sonar and how is it different from what we might consider to be just regular sonar.

RALSTON: Side scan sonar uses a very narrow focused beam of sound out to each side to generate images of objects on the bottom.

SAN MIGUEL: And is this -- have we seen advances in this particular technology over the past few years? Has it made it easier to use?

RALSTON: Yes it has. In the last 10 years they have developed better resolution imaging equipment using medical ultrasound technology. And we're able to see objects as small as six inches and sometimes smaller depending on the frequency of sound that is used.

SAN MIGUEL: And tell me exactly what goes on here? Are you seeing like a kind of a blurry shape through side scanning technology, or are you able to get pretty good definition in images that you get back?

RALSTON: Depending on the frequency of sound used, the higher the frequency the better the resolution. We can get some very good images if the conditions are right for creating good images.

SAN MIGUEL: We're actually looking at one of the images from a past case that you were able to get using side scanning technology. The image that we are seeing is of a body. I also see a shadow. It looks like a pretty well-defined shadow there. How does that come into play in determining where exactly this object might be?

RALSTON: Sound is much like light, in that when it intersects and object it reflects back from that object, but does not penetrate that object. So, therefore it creates a shadow. The sound is generated from the transducer, the underwater tool body, if you will, and it is also received back by that transducer. And then the software processes that into an image, much like an aerial photograph, as if you would be looking straight down on it. So areas behind the object, which sound does not reach, creates shadows.

SAN MIGUEL: That is fascinating. I understand you have had some success with this as well. Gene Ralston, underwater recovery expert.

Thanks so much for your time. We do appreciate you joining us on NEXT@LIVE (sic). We'll be back with a new angle on the cloning controversy. Are recent cloning claims adding support to junk science? We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: Human cloning, you have seen the headlines, you have watched the Raelians make the rounds on the talk shows, so you will no doubt have to agree with me when I say that we are just shocked. Shocked, I tell you, to see the whole thing starting to fall to pieces. The story started when Clonaid's Brigitte Boisselier called a press conference on December 27 to announce the birth of the first of two babies that Clonaid claims were clones.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): This was a story just too sensational for the press to resist. Even with absolutely no proof offered up to support such an extraordinary claim. To many the Clonaid announcement was just plain weird right from the word go.

Clonaid is backed by the religious movement called the Raelians, who follow a guru named Rael, and believe humans are the clones of extra terrestrials who visited the Earth thousands of years ago, but also troubling was the involvement of this man, Michael Guillen, a science journalists formerly with ABC news. His presence may have lent an air of credibility to this incredible story.

MICHAEL GUILLEN, SCIENCE JOURNALIST: For the record, I know as little, and as much, as you do about the baby and child that Dr. Boisselier has just announced. But Dr. Boisselier has invited me to put her claim to the test.

SAN MIGUEL: This week, Guillen was doing something that looked an awful lot like backpedaling. Appearing on news shows like CNN's "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT."

GUILLEN: We were not given the access that we were promised to take the required DNA tests and therefore I have to say tonight, there is a possibility that this was a hoax.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL: Here to talk more about all that is Bob Park, expert in junk science, author of a book called "Voodoo Science."

Dr. Park, thanks for being with us.

The Raelians were weird from the get go. We, you know, kind of accept that by now, but ever since Dolly the cloned sheep, cloning is no longer just the stuff of science fiction. So, how should the media have covered the story?

DR. ROBERT PARK, AUTHOR, "VOODOO SCIENCE": It's not clear how they should have covered it. They should have covered it with a lot of skepticism, and they did. So, I think that was pretty good. The presence of Michael Guillen in this who affair was disturbing, but otherwise, I would say the press did rather well. They were skeptical right from the start.

SAN MIGUEL: What about Mr. Guillen's role in this? A player in a possible hoax or maybe somebody duped and used by the Raelians? Or possibly duped by the Raelians?

PARK: Well, if he was duped, that does not reflect very well on his abilities as a reporter, but it's not clear. What has come out since is that before, well before, these births were announced he was out trying to pedal an exclusive story about it, which raises serious questions about his independence in the whole affair.

SAN MIGUEL: And one of those networks that he tried to sell that to, including CNN. Doesn't junk science rely, on the part, on the fact that our viewers kind of eat this stuff up?

PARK: Oh, they do love it. And, of course, that's what's dangerous. The more science succeeds, the more we're going to see these fraudulent efforts based on science. Science is the thing to imitate these days.

SAN MIGUEL: Sounds like. Well, in your book, "Voodoo Science," you talk about the seven warning signs of junk science, which one of those were visible with this Clonaid and clone situation?

PARK: Well, really there were more than one of the warning signs that were present here. The most -- the one that is most common, I think, is that the story is pitched first to the media, real science progress you first got sell your colleagues. So present the material at scientific conferences, publish articles in scientific journals. When the first people that hear about it are the media, you've got a problem.

SAN MIGUEL: And there always is kind of an us-against-them kind of perspective as well. Somebody in the establishment is trying to suppress You try to pitch that as well?

PARK: That's another clear warning sign, is that there is this always an establishment force, usually very powerful, that is trying to suppress this wonderful discovery.

SAN MIGUEL: We should point out that Dr. Bob Park is also a professor of physics at the University of Maryland. His book is "Voodoo Science."

Dr. Park, always good to have you on, hope to have you on again. Thank you for joining us.

PARK: Surely.

SAN MIGUEL: Well, when we come back, that's right, one of those who's hot stories, but we're not talking about celebrities. Actually, talking about all of us. Some scientists warn that 2003 could turn out to be the hottest year on record. How global warming could make for some hot politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: If you have been watching TV news over the past few days, no doubt, you have seen the anti-SUV ads, linking oil money to terrorism. And the ads don't even hit the commercial airwaves until this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the oil company executive who sold the gas that George bought for his SUV. These are the countries where the executives bought the oil that made the gas that...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAN MIGUEL: All right, well, we'll have the debate over SUVs fund terrorists on another shows, it will be good one, I promise you. But most scientists agree that SUV, all gasoline powered cars, actually contribute to global warming. And climate experts say global warming may help make this year hotter than ever before.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): Scientists at Britain's Hadley Center for Climate Predictions, say there's a 50/50 chance that this year will turn out to be the hottest ever. NASA's James Hanson, the researcher who helped make global warming a household phrase 15 years ago, thinks it is more than likely.

Why so hot? In part, it is El Nino; taking hold this year in the Pacific Ocean, just like it did in the last record setting year, 1998. But most climate scientists also blame the greenhouse effect, the notion that carbon dioxide and other gases from our cars and factories are throwing a blanket over the Earth, trapping more heat near the surface and melting ice caps, altering weather patterns, and raising the prospect of flooding coastal cities, and more storms and droughts.

President Bush says he favors voluntary measures to lower the global warming risk. But two new bills in the U.S. Senate propose tougher and mandatory steps. Sen. John McCain says the U.S. is the biggest greenhouse gas source and ought to be the biggest source of solutions.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I would, again, remind all of us that the United States greenhouse gas emissions represent 25 percent of the entire world's greenhouse gas emissions.

SAN MIGUEL: Most climate scientists think global warming is for real, and here to stay. But the political debate is another matter. For every voice warning of coastal cities sinking beneath rising oceans, there is another one saying it is the economy, stupid, that can sink if we act too quickly on global warming.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL: And we are joined now by Myron Ebell of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and David Doniger, who directs the Climate Center of the Natural Resources Defense Council. Both are in our Washington studios.

Gentlemen, thank you both for being with us today.

DAVID DONIGER, NRDC: Thanks.

MYRON EBELL, COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: Let me start off with you, Mr. Doniger. We've seen efforts by Democrats in the past to limit greenhouse gases. Not that many from Republicans, McCain certainly should be high enough, high profile enough for you. Yet does this really change the equation with this particular president who favors voluntary reductions?

DONIGER: I think McCain and Lieberman's initiative is a real big thing, right out of the box in this Congress. And McCain takes on big issues and he makes progress on them. He has open the door for the Republican Party to think this issue over again, and take another look at the reflex action against controlling this pollution.

SAN MIGUEL: But you know the argument that is going to happen here, the cost of industries to comply with this bill -- or any kind of reduction legislation, if enacted, it will be passed onto consumers, is it not?

DONIGER: Every time we have set out to control pollution it has been done less expensively than predicted. It has been more successfully than predicted. We get new inventions, new products, better products. And people are happier both with these products and with the better environment. We can do this and do it at low cost.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Ebell, we have to start reducing emissions at some time, why not now with this McCain/Lieberman bill? And why not this way?

EBELL: No, it's not clear that we need to start reducing emissions sometime. I think, your lead up to this little debate was a good example of the junk science that Professor Park was talking about in the previous segment. The fact is that the McCain/Lieberman bill is an empty political gesture. But like many political gestures from people who want to run for president, it would be a very expensive one. Thank goodness it is dead on arrival in the Congress. It will go nowhere. And this is a lot of hot air about very little.

SAN MIGUEL: But what is it in the scientific reports that are coming out, you know, that are from credible, reputable scientific sources that you don't believe? What is it that is making you believe the situation is not as bad as what we're being led to believe?

EBELL: Well, I largely agree with the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Changes, most recent report, that is the 1,000-page report. It is the 25-page, or 30-page summary for policymakers where the bureaucrats get together and figure out how to put together a scary story that the media will love. And essentially what is reported is that summary for policymakers, and there are hundreds of global warming and climate research studies that are published. It is only the scary ones that get reported on major media.

SAN MIGUEL: Well, Mr. Doniger, you know, as Senator McCain said, we may be the biggest producer of greenhouse gases in the world, but I find it hard to believe that other developing countries aren't putting out as many emissions, if not more, and they don't even have the technology to clean it up that we do, here in the United States. What about that particular argument that the rest of the world should take part in this as well?

DONIGER: The United States is the richest country in the world. We have the best engineers and the best technology, and the most innovative economy. And when we show how to do this, when we bring the technologies to market, other countries can follow suit and copy. In fact, other countries are doing their part, too.

The United States is the only major country, the only developed country, which has not set out to reduce its emissions.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Ebell, how does the CEI want to see this issue addressed?

EBELL: Well, this fall a number of scientists who actually buy into global warming alarmism, 18 of them published a major article in "Science" magazine in which they reviewed the choices in front of us And they, in fact, concluded that the approach of the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty and the McCain-Lieberman bill -- which is essentially Kyoto implemented in the United States -- will not work. It will be far too expensive and do very little to address the potential problem of global warming.

Instead, they review technological innovation and they conclude this will not happen over a 10- or 20-year period, it will happen to a 30- to 70-year period. Luckily global warming, if it does turn out to be a problem, is really a 100- to 200-year problem. It is not an immediate threat to anyone.

SAN MIGUEL: We could go, I know, for many more minutes on this. And I know that you disagree, Mr. Doniger, but we have to leave it there. David Doniger, with the Climate Center of Natural Resources Defense Council, and Myron Ebell, global warming policy from the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Thanks to you both for joining us. I hope to you back and we'll continue this discussion. Thank you very much.

Well, for those of you who just can't watch NEXT@CNN without drooling over gadgets, we've got the latest gadgets. From the mother of all gadget shows, the Consumer Electronics Show, in Las Vegas. Our man on the scene will tell us what he considers to be the best in the show. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: Welcome back to NEXT@CNN. I am Renay San Miguel at CNN headquarters in Atlanta. The Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas is the annual Woodstock for gadget heads. The electronic toys on display there this week are likely to be hot gift items come next December.

Our Daniel Sieberg has been at CES all week and he joins us now with his picks for the best gadgets in the show.

You're having such a good time out there, aren't you, Daniel?

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: That's true, Renay. And I would consider myself a gadget head.

We're going to jump right in and show some people the products that caught our eye while we've been here the last couple of days. We're going to start with one that is certainly on the higher end, higher end for price, too.

This is the 50-inch plasma monitor from Zenith. It is offering this really crisp intense picture, you can see here. We have a high- definition TV feed coming into it. It is only about four inches deep, as well. But, of course, you're going to have to pay for this technology, about $9,500, plus a tuner as well.

So, from something that weighs 100 pounds to something that will fit on your wrist. This was a technology that was announced here at the show, from Microsoft, these are a line of watches. They use an FM signal to receive information. So, if you say you want to see the weather in Las Vegas, you can set preferences in here for all sorts of things, from weather, to news, to stock tips, to sports information. And you can even change the face of the watch, depending on the style. The prices will range from about $100 or more, depending on the manufacturer of the watch.

The next one I've got here, you might wonder what I have around my neck. This is something they offered from Philips. They have done a key ring line of products. They have this mp3 player. This is about $100, holds about 64 megabytes of music.

But the lanyard around my neck, this is fairly interesting technology. They're calling it the first wearable technology from Philips, where if I run my fingers up and down these raised bumps I can control the volume or the other features on the mp3 player itself.

They're saying it is the first in wearable technology. It will be available later in the year.

Now, from a tiny technology to one that is also announced here at the show. This is the latest from Sony, the Sony CLA (ph). People are used to the PDAs from Sony, but this is offering a 2.2 mega pixel camera in addition to the usual features the keyboard on the front here. You are going to have to pay for this device though, about $800 for it, as well. This is coming out in April.

Finally we'll bring in a guest here, Joshua Pichonary, from Yamaha, to demonstrate the Easy Eji (ph) Guitar. These light up frets up here help you learn how to play. In case you're an air guitarist and you want to take it to the next level, like me. This is going to go for about $300, coming out halfway through the year. So, Renay, there really a whole list of products here. You know all sorts of stuff, really something for everybody.

Renay, back to you.

SAN MIGUEL: All right, Daniel Sieberg our gadget head in chief, in Las Vegas. Thanks for joining us, Daniel.

We're going to take a walk now on the dark side of science. Eight years ago 168 people died in Oklahoma City's federal building when a domestic terrorist set off a bomb made, in part, form common fertilizer. This week, in London, seven people are in custody after a deadly poison called ricin was discovered in an apartment. Now, ricin is considered a bioterrorist weapon. It doesn't take a chemist to make it. And the raw materials come from the garden.

The source of ricin, the castor bean plant. The plants and seeds are sold in garden shops just like the ammonium nitrate fertilizer used in Oklahoma City. We picked these seeds up at a local store. You can get a good look at them, right there.

According to Cornell University researchers they can be deadly. It said just one of these seeds is enough to kill a child.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): Ricin can be found in what is left over from making castor oil. It comes from the castor bean plant. It can be found growing almost anywhere around the world. Ricin is twice as potent as cobra venom and relatively easy to produce. It only takes tiny amount of ricin ingested, injected or inhaled to kill someone. And there's no known antidote. Symptoms range from diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, stomach cramps, internal bleeding to liver and kidney failure, and a total meltdown of the circulatory system.

In 1978 Bulgarian defector Biorgi Markov (ph) was assassinated. Police found a ricin pellet no bigger than a BB injected in his thigh.

The discovery of trace amounts of ricin in the London apartment this week launched a major investigation. CNN's Nic Robertson, from our London bureau, joins us now with an update.

And I understand, Nic, some new news from Scotland Yard today?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. They have charged four people with having articles relating to terrorism, that was under the Terrorist Act Year 2000. They have also charged the same four people with development and production of a chemical weapon. And that's under the 1996 Chemical Weapons Act.

A fifth person being charged with forgery of documents and having false documents. A sixth person being charged downgraded from terrorist offenses to drug-related offenses. And immigration offenses. He will be bailed. The seventh person will be handed over to immigration authorities. So British authorities here moving relatively swiftly, within six days now, to bring these charges, very significantly. The first find ever of such a toxin. And these people being charged with development and production of a chemical weapon, Renay.

SAN MIGUEL: Do we have any idea if Scotland Yard has been able to make any links between these people and any known terrorist groups?

ROBERTSON: So far nothing from Scotland Yard. Intelligence sources we talked to say at least one of the men have training in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. And that some of the men had come from Paris. That in Paris they had known a group of people who were arrested just before Christmas on terrorism charges by French authorities.

That group, themselves, one of them had been trained, it is believe, in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. That group also related, or believed to have connections with more, another group of Algerians who were arrested in London in November of last year.

No one saying what group these men are affiliated with, but it is the picture that is emerging is that they had connections -- at least some of them in the past with al Qaeda. And that they were working or believed to have had connections, both in France and Great Britain -- Renay.

SAN MIGUEL: OK, Nic Robertson from London. Thank you so much for that report.

We want to go to breaking news, right now though, involving the search for Laci Peterson. We understand that we have a press conference going on in Berkeley, California. Let's go to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gene Battaglia, he's a dive captain with Alameda County.

GENE BATTAGLIA, DIVE CAPTAIN, ALAMEDA CO: Morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morning, Captain.

BATTAGLIA: What we're doing now is we are getting our divers good to go. What has taken so long this morning -- and you guys got a chance to see that when we set it up -- is we went out and set out a grid system out there. So we have set out as we have buoys set out. And then what we're going to is take the Coast Guard boat and set it out as a diving platform, from which my divers will go out and start doing their diving.

So, right now, I have two teams that are getting ready to go out and get set up and go diving.

QUESTION: How many on each team?

BATTAGLIA: Each team has three divers. The way the system works, is we are using the lifeguard systems from New York. And it is set up so we have a primary diver, with a primary tender, a backup diver, with a back tender; and 90 percent diver, with a 90 percent tender.

The way it works is the primary diver goes into the water. He's allowed to go in for 20 minutes only on his dive. The reason we do that is after 20 minutes most divers, in that kind of conditions, will lose focus as far as their search technique. So, he's only allowed to go in 20 minutes.

During that time the reason why he has a backup tender there, besides taking care of the backup diver, he is also doing what is called a profile. So he will be drawing the dive as it goes on. He will also be doing what is called a breath count, so he will know exactly how much air that diver is using while he is under water. So, he can guess within 100 or 200 pounds per square inch, what the ending rate of that diver will be when he comes in.

QUESTION: How is the visibility down there?

BATTAGLIA: Have no idea. We haven't put in anybody in there yet.

QUESTION: Do you know how cold the water is?

BATTAGLIA: No, we haven't checked that yet either.

QUESTION: Could you explain something, if you identified a place where an object was on Thursday. You knew where it was, why are you doing a grid system. We thought you were going for that one thing. We need you to just explain that. We thought you were going to one spot, one object.

BATTAGLIA: When you're out there, and you have what called a sonar and there is some lag time from the time the sonar hits the object, to the time that it gets back to the boat. Plus you have to take into consideration the length the rope or the sonar back to the boat.

So what that does now, that increases your search area. So to ensure that we make sure that we hit whatever is out there that's been hit, we need to expand that search area. Just like I said, here, so we can turn around and do a proper search.

Now, we will start in the area where whatever was out there, we turn around and be able to hit that area and clear that area first.

SAN MIGUEL: We have been listening to Gene Battaglia. He is the dive captain for Alameda County. Talking about how they are conducting the search at the Berkeley Marina. They are looking for 27-year-old Laci Peterson, a pregnant woman from Modesto, California, who has been missing since Christmas Eve.

We will have more NEXT@CNN LIVE, for you right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: For some, downloading means a new way to record, listen to, and share music. For others, like the music industry and some Internet service providers, downloading is a dirty word. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): Hard to imagine the traffic on the Internet created as a tool for scientists and professors would become dominated by music, movies and games. The bulk of bandwidth at some Internet service providers now is taken up by shared songs and videos.

For the masses, peer-to-peer file sharing was born with Napster in the late '90s. The music collections of geeks and newbies (ph) alike soon grew exponentially as finding and copying songs from computers anywhere on the globe could be accomplished in a few clicks, no cash required.

The recording industry, though, cranked up the volume over this music mayhem, downloaders were branded pirates and soon the courts got involved. But even before Napster was nixed, new peer-to-pear technology sprung up, Kazaa, Morpheus. Free was the operative feature, legal subscription sites like MusicNet and Pressplay, are threatened of with going the way of the 8 track.

Soon TV shows and feature length movies were added to the downloading menu. And lines were drawn between those who demanded copyright protection and those who claim downloading anything they could find was a god-given right.

As that intellectual property fight bubbles, there is also the reality that music and movies are bandwidth hogs. Dozens of colleges have installed hardware or software to limit or stop file sharing because all that downloading was clogging the network. Nobody could get their real work done.

Piracy and digital copying debates go beyond just computers and the Internet, to things like altering CDs to block users from downloading music onto other devices. Consumers say that's their fair use right. And they're crying foul over the fact that music companies are now fighting fire with fire, using technology to shut down technology.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL: Here to talk about the tug of war involving consumers, technology and music, Congressman Rick Boucher, Democrat of Virginia, joins us from the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, as he is speaking there about innovation and consumer right.

And in our Washington bureau, Cary Sherman, president of the Recording Industry Association of America, the trade group that represents the recording industry in the United States.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

Congress Boucher, let me start with you. I want to make sure I understand this correctly in your bill Digital Media Consumer Rights Act, you're going to be taking away the prohibition that -- the ban on technologies that lets people break copyright protection measures? REP. RICK BOUCHER (D), VIRGINIA: Well, we want to make sure that people who actually infringe copyrights remain subject to liability for that. And nothing that we're proposing would legitimize acts of piracy or taking intellectual property unlawfully.

On the other hand, I think it is a major problem that today we have a law that says that the owner of content, the owner of a copyright, can enshroud that content with a technical protection measure, and then prevent people from getting to that content in order to do things that are classically protected under the fair use doctrine.

For example, if a person wants to make a backup of the text of an electronic book or of a DVD or some other item that he has lawfully acquired, he ought to be able to do that. If he wants to play the DVD on a Linux-based operating system, he would have to bypass the technical protection measure in order to do that.

Now, what both of these consumers would be proposing to do is exercise a classically protected fair use right. And the bill that I've put forward would enable them to continue to be able to do that.

SAN MIGUEL: If you could answer this in about 30 seconds, though, the idea though, I could download a program from the Internet that would allow me to make a copy of my DVD, but then I could go ahead and put that copy out on the Internet, right?

BOUCHER: No, not according to this legislation. In my view, if you distribute the bill all over the Internet, that is piracy. And you should not be permitted to do that. Generally, the law does not allow it, my bill would not allow it either.

SAN MIGUEL: I'll tell you what, I understand that, but Mr. Sherman I will put it to you now. The idea of fair use, I mean, the RIRA has nothing against fair use of this material?

CARY SHERMAN, RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOC. OF AMERICA: Certainly not, and music companies have never objected when consumers wanted to make copies of their music for personal use. The problem is that a lot of people are going well beyond personal use, they're burning copies for all their friends. They're selling it to people in the dorms. And they're putting it up on the Internet so that millions of anonymous strangers can download it for free.

That is not personal use, that's not fair use. And the ability to use some kind of technical protection measure to protect against it seems perfectly reasonable to me

You have video games that have protection. You have motion pictures that have protection. You have software that has protection. Why should music be any less entitled to have some kind of protection against Internet piracy and uncontrolled burning.

SAN MIGUEL: But if you put that kind of technology in a CD. If I buy a CD and I realize, all of a sudden, I can't rip a particular song to my favorite mp3 player, for my use. Don't you feel like the music company should tell me, whether or not that CD has that -- doesn't allow me to do that?

SHERMAN: Absolutely. There are only four or five CDs that have been commercially released in the U.S. that have CD copy protection. They have all been prominently labeled. Everyone agrees that everything should be labeled.

But the reason that there are so few CDs with copy protection on it, is that record companies are looking to make sure the consumers will be able to transfer their music to computers and be able to make personal use.

The technology hasn't been perfected yet, sufficiently, and that's why the new technologies haven't been used. Record companies want consumers to have good music experiences.

SAN MIGUEL: Congressman, your bill also calls for clearly labeling copy protected CDs. But let's get back to the fair use issue here. There is really no way to legislate that. You've said that you realize the difference between fair use and privacy. What about the concerns of the concerns of the recording industry?

BOUCHER: First of all, let me say that the bill does require that if CDs are copy protected there will be labeling on the outside of the case that clearly draws the attention of the consumer to the fact that a copy cannot be made. And I think that there is not really any disagreement about the appropriateness of that measure.

I would say in response to your question that the recording industry will not be able to address its concern about Internet peer- to-peer file sharing simply by copy protecting CDs. There are better ways to do that, which I could elucidate at some end.

But, you know, the problem is, if you copy protect a CD, someone is going to break that copy protection. That person is then going to upload the CD to the Internet. It really doesn't matter what the law says, the law is going to be violated. And as soon as you have the first CD put up on the Internet and it is available for peer-to-peer file sharing, it is going to remain up there forever. And I think Cary Sherman, my friend, would agree that that risk still is inherent even in the copy protection of CDs.

I am pleased to hear him say that the industry does not intend to produce larger volumes of copy protected CDs until assurance can be provided that consumers can make fair use of the CDs within their home entertainment environment.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Sherman, you talked about the way to get around piracy, get around sites like Kazaa and Morpheus, is to offer legal pay-for-play, legitimate sites, like Pressplay, like MusicNet. But what we've seen so far is that Kazaa and Morpheus still get millions of visitors per month, and MusicNet and Pressplay don't, what about that issue?

SHERMAN: That's why we need a multifaceted solution. The fact is that in the last six months the online services have made unbelievable strides in terms of having additional licensed content available. You now have multiple services with content from the five majors, from thousands of independent labels, there is an incredible assortment of music that can be streamed, it can be downloaded, it can be burned to CDs at all different price points.

These services are now really providing a legitimate alternative. And there is no longer any excuse for people to go to a peer-to-peer service to get an illegal copy when legitimate alternatives are available. There is no magic bullet however. The primary thing is a legitimate alternative in the marketplace, but sometimes you have to add to it, technical measures, education about the fact that this downloading is illegal and risky -- and enforcement.

SAN MIGUEL: Cary Sherman, president of the Recording Industry Association of America, and Congressman Rick Boucher of Virginia. Thank you both for joining us. Hope to hear again from you soon.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

BOUCHER: Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: Lots more to come on NEXT, including the end of an era for a California tree sitter. We'll be right back.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Warming Predictions; A Look at Gadgets at Consumer Electronic Show>


Aired January 11, 2003 - 13:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Today on NEXT@CNN LIVE. Cloning claims and how they feed junk science.
Alarming new global warming predictions, fire up the debate.

The lowdown on downloading, and a bill that would legalize what some people call piracy.

And a live look at the coolest gadgets at the Consumer Electronic Show. All that, and more, on NEXT.

SAN MIGUEL: Hello, everyone, welcome to NEXT@CNN. I'm Renay San Miguel and NEXT is coming to you live from CNN Center. Starting next week we'll be on at 2 p.m. Eastern every Saturday.

So think if this as NEXT@CNN, version 2.0. This particular upgrade is all about taking the big stories of the week and telling them in a different way, through the prism of science and technology. Now that doesn't mean that this is going turn into geeks on parade, here. No how-tos on fixing hard drive but maybe a story on whether the government wants to be in your hard drive, that kind of thing.

There are not a lot of front-page stories out there that don't have some type of science or technology element to them. And our first story is a very good example.

You just heard from Leroy Orange, one of the men pardoned by Illinois Governor George Ryan. DNA evidence not involved in his case, but in the past few years post-conviction DNA testing has exonerated nearly 20 wrongly accused convicts on death rows across the country. And that has many rethinking the death penalty.

Joining us to talk about that is Dr. Michael Baden, a forensic pathologist and DNA expert; he joins us now from New York.

Dr. Baden, thanks for being with us today.

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good to be with you, Renay.

SAN MIGUEL: So, what role has DNA testing played, do you believe, in just this whole reexamination of in death row across the country?

BADEN: I think the exoneration is not only from death row but other convicted persons. Over 120, now, post conviction exonerations, because of DNA has thrown a spotlight on the fact that there are cracks in the legal system that science is now showing that have to be addressed.

SAN MIGUEL: What kind of advances are we talking about in DNA testing? Have we seen for the last five or 10 years?

BADEN: Well, the main thing in the O.J. Simpson case, I think, has brought it to public attention, above all else, is that DNA can be useful in exclusively identifying whether a person was present at a crime scene, whether a person has committed a sexual act, and whether he hasn't.

And in doing this the technology has developed greatly in the past 10, 15 years so that a single drop of semen, a single hair, a single blood, a single sneeze, can produce enough DNA so that it will be clear whether that individual was or was not at that scene.

SAN MIGUEL: What about the more practical applications of it. Is it cheaper now? Are more jurisdictions able to use DNA testing?

BADEN: Well, it is cheaper and it is faster, so that backlogs can be looked into. The old days of taking rape kits, and rape victims, and holding them until a suspect was identified, no longer has to be done. Because people can examine those rape kits right away, get an answer. Use it as an investigative tool. And not let the guilty run free, because, remember, every time there is somebody exonerated, who didn't do it, the person who did do it is still out there doing whatever he wants to do.

SAN MIGUEL: What if there are -- and if there are any mistakes to be made in the science of DNA testing, where would those mistakes be made? Would it be in the evidence-gathering phase?

BADEN: Renay, you're absolutely right. It is the collection, identification, preservation, of the evidence that can be mishandled and make mistakes. This was brought up in O.J. Simpson.

I think since O.J. Simpson, police departments across the country and across the world have taken training. Today, departments are much better at identifying, preserving, collecting evidence and getting it over to the laboratory so that mistakes in specimen handling, and mistakes in mixing up specimens, or letting specimens deteriorate are much less common today than they were 10 years ago.

SAN MIGUEL: Probably as a result of better training I would think, on the part of ...

BADEN: Much better training all around, prosecutors, police, crime lab people, doctors.

SAN MIGUEL: Dr. Michael Baden, forensic pathologist and DNA expert, thanks for coming in today. We appreciate your time.

BADEN: Thank you, Renay. SAN MIGUEL: Well, science and criminal investigation are also mixing in the case of Laci Peterson. The 27-year-old Modesto, California woman has been missing since Christmas Eve. Police are searching a Berkeley Marina, using a particular kind of sonar technology. Underwater recovery specialist Gene Ralston uses that technology. He joins us now on the phone from Boise, Idaho.

Mr. Ralston, thank you for your time today.

GENE RALSTON, UNDERWATER RECOVERY SPECIALIST: Good morning, Renay. Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: What exactly is side scanning sonar and how is it different from what we might consider to be just regular sonar.

RALSTON: Side scan sonar uses a very narrow focused beam of sound out to each side to generate images of objects on the bottom.

SAN MIGUEL: And is this -- have we seen advances in this particular technology over the past few years? Has it made it easier to use?

RALSTON: Yes it has. In the last 10 years they have developed better resolution imaging equipment using medical ultrasound technology. And we're able to see objects as small as six inches and sometimes smaller depending on the frequency of sound that is used.

SAN MIGUEL: And tell me exactly what goes on here? Are you seeing like a kind of a blurry shape through side scanning technology, or are you able to get pretty good definition in images that you get back?

RALSTON: Depending on the frequency of sound used, the higher the frequency the better the resolution. We can get some very good images if the conditions are right for creating good images.

SAN MIGUEL: We're actually looking at one of the images from a past case that you were able to get using side scanning technology. The image that we are seeing is of a body. I also see a shadow. It looks like a pretty well-defined shadow there. How does that come into play in determining where exactly this object might be?

RALSTON: Sound is much like light, in that when it intersects and object it reflects back from that object, but does not penetrate that object. So, therefore it creates a shadow. The sound is generated from the transducer, the underwater tool body, if you will, and it is also received back by that transducer. And then the software processes that into an image, much like an aerial photograph, as if you would be looking straight down on it. So areas behind the object, which sound does not reach, creates shadows.

SAN MIGUEL: That is fascinating. I understand you have had some success with this as well. Gene Ralston, underwater recovery expert.

Thanks so much for your time. We do appreciate you joining us on NEXT@LIVE (sic). We'll be back with a new angle on the cloning controversy. Are recent cloning claims adding support to junk science? We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: Human cloning, you have seen the headlines, you have watched the Raelians make the rounds on the talk shows, so you will no doubt have to agree with me when I say that we are just shocked. Shocked, I tell you, to see the whole thing starting to fall to pieces. The story started when Clonaid's Brigitte Boisselier called a press conference on December 27 to announce the birth of the first of two babies that Clonaid claims were clones.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): This was a story just too sensational for the press to resist. Even with absolutely no proof offered up to support such an extraordinary claim. To many the Clonaid announcement was just plain weird right from the word go.

Clonaid is backed by the religious movement called the Raelians, who follow a guru named Rael, and believe humans are the clones of extra terrestrials who visited the Earth thousands of years ago, but also troubling was the involvement of this man, Michael Guillen, a science journalists formerly with ABC news. His presence may have lent an air of credibility to this incredible story.

MICHAEL GUILLEN, SCIENCE JOURNALIST: For the record, I know as little, and as much, as you do about the baby and child that Dr. Boisselier has just announced. But Dr. Boisselier has invited me to put her claim to the test.

SAN MIGUEL: This week, Guillen was doing something that looked an awful lot like backpedaling. Appearing on news shows like CNN's "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT."

GUILLEN: We were not given the access that we were promised to take the required DNA tests and therefore I have to say tonight, there is a possibility that this was a hoax.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL: Here to talk more about all that is Bob Park, expert in junk science, author of a book called "Voodoo Science."

Dr. Park, thanks for being with us.

The Raelians were weird from the get go. We, you know, kind of accept that by now, but ever since Dolly the cloned sheep, cloning is no longer just the stuff of science fiction. So, how should the media have covered the story?

DR. ROBERT PARK, AUTHOR, "VOODOO SCIENCE": It's not clear how they should have covered it. They should have covered it with a lot of skepticism, and they did. So, I think that was pretty good. The presence of Michael Guillen in this who affair was disturbing, but otherwise, I would say the press did rather well. They were skeptical right from the start.

SAN MIGUEL: What about Mr. Guillen's role in this? A player in a possible hoax or maybe somebody duped and used by the Raelians? Or possibly duped by the Raelians?

PARK: Well, if he was duped, that does not reflect very well on his abilities as a reporter, but it's not clear. What has come out since is that before, well before, these births were announced he was out trying to pedal an exclusive story about it, which raises serious questions about his independence in the whole affair.

SAN MIGUEL: And one of those networks that he tried to sell that to, including CNN. Doesn't junk science rely, on the part, on the fact that our viewers kind of eat this stuff up?

PARK: Oh, they do love it. And, of course, that's what's dangerous. The more science succeeds, the more we're going to see these fraudulent efforts based on science. Science is the thing to imitate these days.

SAN MIGUEL: Sounds like. Well, in your book, "Voodoo Science," you talk about the seven warning signs of junk science, which one of those were visible with this Clonaid and clone situation?

PARK: Well, really there were more than one of the warning signs that were present here. The most -- the one that is most common, I think, is that the story is pitched first to the media, real science progress you first got sell your colleagues. So present the material at scientific conferences, publish articles in scientific journals. When the first people that hear about it are the media, you've got a problem.

SAN MIGUEL: And there always is kind of an us-against-them kind of perspective as well. Somebody in the establishment is trying to suppress You try to pitch that as well?

PARK: That's another clear warning sign, is that there is this always an establishment force, usually very powerful, that is trying to suppress this wonderful discovery.

SAN MIGUEL: We should point out that Dr. Bob Park is also a professor of physics at the University of Maryland. His book is "Voodoo Science."

Dr. Park, always good to have you on, hope to have you on again. Thank you for joining us.

PARK: Surely.

SAN MIGUEL: Well, when we come back, that's right, one of those who's hot stories, but we're not talking about celebrities. Actually, talking about all of us. Some scientists warn that 2003 could turn out to be the hottest year on record. How global warming could make for some hot politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: If you have been watching TV news over the past few days, no doubt, you have seen the anti-SUV ads, linking oil money to terrorism. And the ads don't even hit the commercial airwaves until this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the oil company executive who sold the gas that George bought for his SUV. These are the countries where the executives bought the oil that made the gas that...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAN MIGUEL: All right, well, we'll have the debate over SUVs fund terrorists on another shows, it will be good one, I promise you. But most scientists agree that SUV, all gasoline powered cars, actually contribute to global warming. And climate experts say global warming may help make this year hotter than ever before.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): Scientists at Britain's Hadley Center for Climate Predictions, say there's a 50/50 chance that this year will turn out to be the hottest ever. NASA's James Hanson, the researcher who helped make global warming a household phrase 15 years ago, thinks it is more than likely.

Why so hot? In part, it is El Nino; taking hold this year in the Pacific Ocean, just like it did in the last record setting year, 1998. But most climate scientists also blame the greenhouse effect, the notion that carbon dioxide and other gases from our cars and factories are throwing a blanket over the Earth, trapping more heat near the surface and melting ice caps, altering weather patterns, and raising the prospect of flooding coastal cities, and more storms and droughts.

President Bush says he favors voluntary measures to lower the global warming risk. But two new bills in the U.S. Senate propose tougher and mandatory steps. Sen. John McCain says the U.S. is the biggest greenhouse gas source and ought to be the biggest source of solutions.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I would, again, remind all of us that the United States greenhouse gas emissions represent 25 percent of the entire world's greenhouse gas emissions.

SAN MIGUEL: Most climate scientists think global warming is for real, and here to stay. But the political debate is another matter. For every voice warning of coastal cities sinking beneath rising oceans, there is another one saying it is the economy, stupid, that can sink if we act too quickly on global warming.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL: And we are joined now by Myron Ebell of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and David Doniger, who directs the Climate Center of the Natural Resources Defense Council. Both are in our Washington studios.

Gentlemen, thank you both for being with us today.

DAVID DONIGER, NRDC: Thanks.

MYRON EBELL, COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: Let me start off with you, Mr. Doniger. We've seen efforts by Democrats in the past to limit greenhouse gases. Not that many from Republicans, McCain certainly should be high enough, high profile enough for you. Yet does this really change the equation with this particular president who favors voluntary reductions?

DONIGER: I think McCain and Lieberman's initiative is a real big thing, right out of the box in this Congress. And McCain takes on big issues and he makes progress on them. He has open the door for the Republican Party to think this issue over again, and take another look at the reflex action against controlling this pollution.

SAN MIGUEL: But you know the argument that is going to happen here, the cost of industries to comply with this bill -- or any kind of reduction legislation, if enacted, it will be passed onto consumers, is it not?

DONIGER: Every time we have set out to control pollution it has been done less expensively than predicted. It has been more successfully than predicted. We get new inventions, new products, better products. And people are happier both with these products and with the better environment. We can do this and do it at low cost.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Ebell, we have to start reducing emissions at some time, why not now with this McCain/Lieberman bill? And why not this way?

EBELL: No, it's not clear that we need to start reducing emissions sometime. I think, your lead up to this little debate was a good example of the junk science that Professor Park was talking about in the previous segment. The fact is that the McCain/Lieberman bill is an empty political gesture. But like many political gestures from people who want to run for president, it would be a very expensive one. Thank goodness it is dead on arrival in the Congress. It will go nowhere. And this is a lot of hot air about very little.

SAN MIGUEL: But what is it in the scientific reports that are coming out, you know, that are from credible, reputable scientific sources that you don't believe? What is it that is making you believe the situation is not as bad as what we're being led to believe?

EBELL: Well, I largely agree with the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Changes, most recent report, that is the 1,000-page report. It is the 25-page, or 30-page summary for policymakers where the bureaucrats get together and figure out how to put together a scary story that the media will love. And essentially what is reported is that summary for policymakers, and there are hundreds of global warming and climate research studies that are published. It is only the scary ones that get reported on major media.

SAN MIGUEL: Well, Mr. Doniger, you know, as Senator McCain said, we may be the biggest producer of greenhouse gases in the world, but I find it hard to believe that other developing countries aren't putting out as many emissions, if not more, and they don't even have the technology to clean it up that we do, here in the United States. What about that particular argument that the rest of the world should take part in this as well?

DONIGER: The United States is the richest country in the world. We have the best engineers and the best technology, and the most innovative economy. And when we show how to do this, when we bring the technologies to market, other countries can follow suit and copy. In fact, other countries are doing their part, too.

The United States is the only major country, the only developed country, which has not set out to reduce its emissions.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Ebell, how does the CEI want to see this issue addressed?

EBELL: Well, this fall a number of scientists who actually buy into global warming alarmism, 18 of them published a major article in "Science" magazine in which they reviewed the choices in front of us And they, in fact, concluded that the approach of the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty and the McCain-Lieberman bill -- which is essentially Kyoto implemented in the United States -- will not work. It will be far too expensive and do very little to address the potential problem of global warming.

Instead, they review technological innovation and they conclude this will not happen over a 10- or 20-year period, it will happen to a 30- to 70-year period. Luckily global warming, if it does turn out to be a problem, is really a 100- to 200-year problem. It is not an immediate threat to anyone.

SAN MIGUEL: We could go, I know, for many more minutes on this. And I know that you disagree, Mr. Doniger, but we have to leave it there. David Doniger, with the Climate Center of Natural Resources Defense Council, and Myron Ebell, global warming policy from the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Thanks to you both for joining us. I hope to you back and we'll continue this discussion. Thank you very much.

Well, for those of you who just can't watch NEXT@CNN without drooling over gadgets, we've got the latest gadgets. From the mother of all gadget shows, the Consumer Electronics Show, in Las Vegas. Our man on the scene will tell us what he considers to be the best in the show. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: Welcome back to NEXT@CNN. I am Renay San Miguel at CNN headquarters in Atlanta. The Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas is the annual Woodstock for gadget heads. The electronic toys on display there this week are likely to be hot gift items come next December.

Our Daniel Sieberg has been at CES all week and he joins us now with his picks for the best gadgets in the show.

You're having such a good time out there, aren't you, Daniel?

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: That's true, Renay. And I would consider myself a gadget head.

We're going to jump right in and show some people the products that caught our eye while we've been here the last couple of days. We're going to start with one that is certainly on the higher end, higher end for price, too.

This is the 50-inch plasma monitor from Zenith. It is offering this really crisp intense picture, you can see here. We have a high- definition TV feed coming into it. It is only about four inches deep, as well. But, of course, you're going to have to pay for this technology, about $9,500, plus a tuner as well.

So, from something that weighs 100 pounds to something that will fit on your wrist. This was a technology that was announced here at the show, from Microsoft, these are a line of watches. They use an FM signal to receive information. So, if you say you want to see the weather in Las Vegas, you can set preferences in here for all sorts of things, from weather, to news, to stock tips, to sports information. And you can even change the face of the watch, depending on the style. The prices will range from about $100 or more, depending on the manufacturer of the watch.

The next one I've got here, you might wonder what I have around my neck. This is something they offered from Philips. They have done a key ring line of products. They have this mp3 player. This is about $100, holds about 64 megabytes of music.

But the lanyard around my neck, this is fairly interesting technology. They're calling it the first wearable technology from Philips, where if I run my fingers up and down these raised bumps I can control the volume or the other features on the mp3 player itself.

They're saying it is the first in wearable technology. It will be available later in the year.

Now, from a tiny technology to one that is also announced here at the show. This is the latest from Sony, the Sony CLA (ph). People are used to the PDAs from Sony, but this is offering a 2.2 mega pixel camera in addition to the usual features the keyboard on the front here. You are going to have to pay for this device though, about $800 for it, as well. This is coming out in April.

Finally we'll bring in a guest here, Joshua Pichonary, from Yamaha, to demonstrate the Easy Eji (ph) Guitar. These light up frets up here help you learn how to play. In case you're an air guitarist and you want to take it to the next level, like me. This is going to go for about $300, coming out halfway through the year. So, Renay, there really a whole list of products here. You know all sorts of stuff, really something for everybody.

Renay, back to you.

SAN MIGUEL: All right, Daniel Sieberg our gadget head in chief, in Las Vegas. Thanks for joining us, Daniel.

We're going to take a walk now on the dark side of science. Eight years ago 168 people died in Oklahoma City's federal building when a domestic terrorist set off a bomb made, in part, form common fertilizer. This week, in London, seven people are in custody after a deadly poison called ricin was discovered in an apartment. Now, ricin is considered a bioterrorist weapon. It doesn't take a chemist to make it. And the raw materials come from the garden.

The source of ricin, the castor bean plant. The plants and seeds are sold in garden shops just like the ammonium nitrate fertilizer used in Oklahoma City. We picked these seeds up at a local store. You can get a good look at them, right there.

According to Cornell University researchers they can be deadly. It said just one of these seeds is enough to kill a child.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): Ricin can be found in what is left over from making castor oil. It comes from the castor bean plant. It can be found growing almost anywhere around the world. Ricin is twice as potent as cobra venom and relatively easy to produce. It only takes tiny amount of ricin ingested, injected or inhaled to kill someone. And there's no known antidote. Symptoms range from diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, stomach cramps, internal bleeding to liver and kidney failure, and a total meltdown of the circulatory system.

In 1978 Bulgarian defector Biorgi Markov (ph) was assassinated. Police found a ricin pellet no bigger than a BB injected in his thigh.

The discovery of trace amounts of ricin in the London apartment this week launched a major investigation. CNN's Nic Robertson, from our London bureau, joins us now with an update.

And I understand, Nic, some new news from Scotland Yard today?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. They have charged four people with having articles relating to terrorism, that was under the Terrorist Act Year 2000. They have also charged the same four people with development and production of a chemical weapon. And that's under the 1996 Chemical Weapons Act.

A fifth person being charged with forgery of documents and having false documents. A sixth person being charged downgraded from terrorist offenses to drug-related offenses. And immigration offenses. He will be bailed. The seventh person will be handed over to immigration authorities. So British authorities here moving relatively swiftly, within six days now, to bring these charges, very significantly. The first find ever of such a toxin. And these people being charged with development and production of a chemical weapon, Renay.

SAN MIGUEL: Do we have any idea if Scotland Yard has been able to make any links between these people and any known terrorist groups?

ROBERTSON: So far nothing from Scotland Yard. Intelligence sources we talked to say at least one of the men have training in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. And that some of the men had come from Paris. That in Paris they had known a group of people who were arrested just before Christmas on terrorism charges by French authorities.

That group, themselves, one of them had been trained, it is believe, in an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan. That group also related, or believed to have connections with more, another group of Algerians who were arrested in London in November of last year.

No one saying what group these men are affiliated with, but it is the picture that is emerging is that they had connections -- at least some of them in the past with al Qaeda. And that they were working or believed to have had connections, both in France and Great Britain -- Renay.

SAN MIGUEL: OK, Nic Robertson from London. Thank you so much for that report.

We want to go to breaking news, right now though, involving the search for Laci Peterson. We understand that we have a press conference going on in Berkeley, California. Let's go to that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gene Battaglia, he's a dive captain with Alameda County.

GENE BATTAGLIA, DIVE CAPTAIN, ALAMEDA CO: Morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morning, Captain.

BATTAGLIA: What we're doing now is we are getting our divers good to go. What has taken so long this morning -- and you guys got a chance to see that when we set it up -- is we went out and set out a grid system out there. So we have set out as we have buoys set out. And then what we're going to is take the Coast Guard boat and set it out as a diving platform, from which my divers will go out and start doing their diving.

So, right now, I have two teams that are getting ready to go out and get set up and go diving.

QUESTION: How many on each team?

BATTAGLIA: Each team has three divers. The way the system works, is we are using the lifeguard systems from New York. And it is set up so we have a primary diver, with a primary tender, a backup diver, with a back tender; and 90 percent diver, with a 90 percent tender.

The way it works is the primary diver goes into the water. He's allowed to go in for 20 minutes only on his dive. The reason we do that is after 20 minutes most divers, in that kind of conditions, will lose focus as far as their search technique. So, he's only allowed to go in 20 minutes.

During that time the reason why he has a backup tender there, besides taking care of the backup diver, he is also doing what is called a profile. So he will be drawing the dive as it goes on. He will also be doing what is called a breath count, so he will know exactly how much air that diver is using while he is under water. So, he can guess within 100 or 200 pounds per square inch, what the ending rate of that diver will be when he comes in.

QUESTION: How is the visibility down there?

BATTAGLIA: Have no idea. We haven't put in anybody in there yet.

QUESTION: Do you know how cold the water is?

BATTAGLIA: No, we haven't checked that yet either.

QUESTION: Could you explain something, if you identified a place where an object was on Thursday. You knew where it was, why are you doing a grid system. We thought you were going for that one thing. We need you to just explain that. We thought you were going to one spot, one object.

BATTAGLIA: When you're out there, and you have what called a sonar and there is some lag time from the time the sonar hits the object, to the time that it gets back to the boat. Plus you have to take into consideration the length the rope or the sonar back to the boat.

So what that does now, that increases your search area. So to ensure that we make sure that we hit whatever is out there that's been hit, we need to expand that search area. Just like I said, here, so we can turn around and do a proper search.

Now, we will start in the area where whatever was out there, we turn around and be able to hit that area and clear that area first.

SAN MIGUEL: We have been listening to Gene Battaglia. He is the dive captain for Alameda County. Talking about how they are conducting the search at the Berkeley Marina. They are looking for 27-year-old Laci Peterson, a pregnant woman from Modesto, California, who has been missing since Christmas Eve.

We will have more NEXT@CNN LIVE, for you right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAN MIGUEL: For some, downloading means a new way to record, listen to, and share music. For others, like the music industry and some Internet service providers, downloading is a dirty word. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL (voice over): Hard to imagine the traffic on the Internet created as a tool for scientists and professors would become dominated by music, movies and games. The bulk of bandwidth at some Internet service providers now is taken up by shared songs and videos.

For the masses, peer-to-peer file sharing was born with Napster in the late '90s. The music collections of geeks and newbies (ph) alike soon grew exponentially as finding and copying songs from computers anywhere on the globe could be accomplished in a few clicks, no cash required.

The recording industry, though, cranked up the volume over this music mayhem, downloaders were branded pirates and soon the courts got involved. But even before Napster was nixed, new peer-to-pear technology sprung up, Kazaa, Morpheus. Free was the operative feature, legal subscription sites like MusicNet and Pressplay, are threatened of with going the way of the 8 track.

Soon TV shows and feature length movies were added to the downloading menu. And lines were drawn between those who demanded copyright protection and those who claim downloading anything they could find was a god-given right.

As that intellectual property fight bubbles, there is also the reality that music and movies are bandwidth hogs. Dozens of colleges have installed hardware or software to limit or stop file sharing because all that downloading was clogging the network. Nobody could get their real work done.

Piracy and digital copying debates go beyond just computers and the Internet, to things like altering CDs to block users from downloading music onto other devices. Consumers say that's their fair use right. And they're crying foul over the fact that music companies are now fighting fire with fire, using technology to shut down technology.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAN MIGUEL: Here to talk about the tug of war involving consumers, technology and music, Congressman Rick Boucher, Democrat of Virginia, joins us from the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, as he is speaking there about innovation and consumer right.

And in our Washington bureau, Cary Sherman, president of the Recording Industry Association of America, the trade group that represents the recording industry in the United States.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

Congress Boucher, let me start with you. I want to make sure I understand this correctly in your bill Digital Media Consumer Rights Act, you're going to be taking away the prohibition that -- the ban on technologies that lets people break copyright protection measures? REP. RICK BOUCHER (D), VIRGINIA: Well, we want to make sure that people who actually infringe copyrights remain subject to liability for that. And nothing that we're proposing would legitimize acts of piracy or taking intellectual property unlawfully.

On the other hand, I think it is a major problem that today we have a law that says that the owner of content, the owner of a copyright, can enshroud that content with a technical protection measure, and then prevent people from getting to that content in order to do things that are classically protected under the fair use doctrine.

For example, if a person wants to make a backup of the text of an electronic book or of a DVD or some other item that he has lawfully acquired, he ought to be able to do that. If he wants to play the DVD on a Linux-based operating system, he would have to bypass the technical protection measure in order to do that.

Now, what both of these consumers would be proposing to do is exercise a classically protected fair use right. And the bill that I've put forward would enable them to continue to be able to do that.

SAN MIGUEL: If you could answer this in about 30 seconds, though, the idea though, I could download a program from the Internet that would allow me to make a copy of my DVD, but then I could go ahead and put that copy out on the Internet, right?

BOUCHER: No, not according to this legislation. In my view, if you distribute the bill all over the Internet, that is piracy. And you should not be permitted to do that. Generally, the law does not allow it, my bill would not allow it either.

SAN MIGUEL: I'll tell you what, I understand that, but Mr. Sherman I will put it to you now. The idea of fair use, I mean, the RIRA has nothing against fair use of this material?

CARY SHERMAN, RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOC. OF AMERICA: Certainly not, and music companies have never objected when consumers wanted to make copies of their music for personal use. The problem is that a lot of people are going well beyond personal use, they're burning copies for all their friends. They're selling it to people in the dorms. And they're putting it up on the Internet so that millions of anonymous strangers can download it for free.

That is not personal use, that's not fair use. And the ability to use some kind of technical protection measure to protect against it seems perfectly reasonable to me

You have video games that have protection. You have motion pictures that have protection. You have software that has protection. Why should music be any less entitled to have some kind of protection against Internet piracy and uncontrolled burning.

SAN MIGUEL: But if you put that kind of technology in a CD. If I buy a CD and I realize, all of a sudden, I can't rip a particular song to my favorite mp3 player, for my use. Don't you feel like the music company should tell me, whether or not that CD has that -- doesn't allow me to do that?

SHERMAN: Absolutely. There are only four or five CDs that have been commercially released in the U.S. that have CD copy protection. They have all been prominently labeled. Everyone agrees that everything should be labeled.

But the reason that there are so few CDs with copy protection on it, is that record companies are looking to make sure the consumers will be able to transfer their music to computers and be able to make personal use.

The technology hasn't been perfected yet, sufficiently, and that's why the new technologies haven't been used. Record companies want consumers to have good music experiences.

SAN MIGUEL: Congressman, your bill also calls for clearly labeling copy protected CDs. But let's get back to the fair use issue here. There is really no way to legislate that. You've said that you realize the difference between fair use and privacy. What about the concerns of the concerns of the recording industry?

BOUCHER: First of all, let me say that the bill does require that if CDs are copy protected there will be labeling on the outside of the case that clearly draws the attention of the consumer to the fact that a copy cannot be made. And I think that there is not really any disagreement about the appropriateness of that measure.

I would say in response to your question that the recording industry will not be able to address its concern about Internet peer- to-peer file sharing simply by copy protecting CDs. There are better ways to do that, which I could elucidate at some end.

But, you know, the problem is, if you copy protect a CD, someone is going to break that copy protection. That person is then going to upload the CD to the Internet. It really doesn't matter what the law says, the law is going to be violated. And as soon as you have the first CD put up on the Internet and it is available for peer-to-peer file sharing, it is going to remain up there forever. And I think Cary Sherman, my friend, would agree that that risk still is inherent even in the copy protection of CDs.

I am pleased to hear him say that the industry does not intend to produce larger volumes of copy protected CDs until assurance can be provided that consumers can make fair use of the CDs within their home entertainment environment.

SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Sherman, you talked about the way to get around piracy, get around sites like Kazaa and Morpheus, is to offer legal pay-for-play, legitimate sites, like Pressplay, like MusicNet. But what we've seen so far is that Kazaa and Morpheus still get millions of visitors per month, and MusicNet and Pressplay don't, what about that issue?

SHERMAN: That's why we need a multifaceted solution. The fact is that in the last six months the online services have made unbelievable strides in terms of having additional licensed content available. You now have multiple services with content from the five majors, from thousands of independent labels, there is an incredible assortment of music that can be streamed, it can be downloaded, it can be burned to CDs at all different price points.

These services are now really providing a legitimate alternative. And there is no longer any excuse for people to go to a peer-to-peer service to get an illegal copy when legitimate alternatives are available. There is no magic bullet however. The primary thing is a legitimate alternative in the marketplace, but sometimes you have to add to it, technical measures, education about the fact that this downloading is illegal and risky -- and enforcement.

SAN MIGUEL: Cary Sherman, president of the Recording Industry Association of America, and Congressman Rick Boucher of Virginia. Thank you both for joining us. Hope to hear again from you soon.

SHERMAN: Thank you.

BOUCHER: Thank you.

SAN MIGUEL: Lots more to come on NEXT, including the end of an era for a California tree sitter. We'll be right back.

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