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Can Snowmobiles and Nature Coexist?; How Do Experts Count Crowds?; Government Helps Taxpayers
Aired January 18, 2003 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Today on NEXT@CNN -- can snowmobiles and nature coexist? The fun machines have landed Yellowstone on the list of most endangered parks. We'll take you to the scene of the controversy.
Another protest, another disagreement over the crowd count. Found out how the experts do the math.
You say you want your tax refunds faster and with less grief. Believe it or not, the government is here to help.
And we'll take you to a virtual online universe, where you can meet other people, go on exotic vacations and even visit other planets. All that and more on NEXT.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Protesters are gathered in Washington today to express their opposition to war in Iraq. Whenever there is a big march or protest, everyone always wants to know how big is the crowd. Usually there are bragging rights and political agendas associated with those figures. CNN's Kathleen Koch is on the Mall this afternoon keeping tabs on the activities. Kathleen, don't worry, we're not going to ask you for a precise head count, but just tell us an estimate of what the turnout looks like right now.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Renay, I'll have our cameras swoop up and it will show you -- we have a slight problem right now, and that many of the demonstrators have left about 45 minutes ago. They started heading up to Capitol Hill for a march, and numbers have dropped off dramatically, but the estimate is that it was roughly about 200,000; now that according to the organizers, of course, have a stake in that.
It was clearly not as large as other protests I have covered. For instance, the Promise Keepers back in 1997, or the Million Man March. Now, that was back in 1995, and it was at that event that they claimed to have a turnout -- or, excuse me, the Park Police estimated the turnout at about 400,000.
However, those who organized that event, Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam said, no, no, we have some 870,000 people here. They even had at least one expert who backed them up on that, and so there was a great deal of controversy, even lawsuits threatened. And finally, the Congress just said simply no more counting by the U.S. Park Police.
Now, when you look back through history, we have had numerous very, very large marches and events here in Washington; the largest that was ever counted was back in 1965, and that was for the inaugural of President Lyndon B. Johnson. That's when they say some 1.2 million people turned out.
Now the second largest was said to be back in 1976, celebrating the nation's bicentennial here on the 4th of July, when they said about a million people turned out.
And of course, Renay, you know, why does everyone care about how many people are here? Because in this city, numbers count. Numbers put people in office, numbers win votes on Capitol Hill. And so competing groups, especially on very polarizing issues like the abortion issue, they point to the turnout at their dueling rallies, at their dueling marches every year as proof that their cause is one favored over their opponent, so a very important issue for a lot of people.
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly, Kathleen. Talks about the strength or weakness of a particular cause on a given day. Thank you very much for that report and we hope you stay warm today.
Well, here to fill us in on how those experts do indeed make those crowd estimates is Dr. Farouk El-Baz of Boston University's Center for Remote Sensing. Dr. El-Baz, thank you for being with us today.
FAROUK EL-BAZ, CENTER FOR REMOTE SENSING: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: So how do most people estimate these crowd sizes, and does it matter who's doing the counting?
EL-BAZ: Most estimates are really done by looking at the crowds either from the ground or from a building or from a helicopter and guesstimate. So all of these are not real counts and they're not even estimates, they're guesstimates. Because no one can really look at the crowd and figure a possible number.
SAN MIGUEL: Kathleen did mention the Million Man March, and I know that you got involved with that one in 1997. Tell us what happened there. The National Park Service came up with a final estimate of about 400,000 people. You came in, you looked at some photographs, and you came in with your final estimate of about twice that, 837,000. What happened? Why such a big gap there?
EL-BAZ: The National Park Service did the count by flying over the crowds and not necessarily straight over. They flew away from the crowds. And because they were afraid that if something happened to the aircraft and it dropped, it would kill people. So they don't really fly over the crowds to get a good view, but they fly on the side, away from the crowd, at least one block away from the crowd, and they estimate the number basically from the number of buses that come into town, the number of cars that are parked near the area, and the number of tickets for the transport, the mass transit.
So all of these are guesstimates. There is not a real way of making certain that the number that's given is exactly represented. So what we did was to take photographs taken by the National Park Service helicopters and then process them, with computers, in the way that we process other satellite images, in a way that they had actually designed to count the number of sand dunes in a desert, by completing a grid on a unit area, and counting the number of sand dunes. And we did that with people, so we counted how many people per square meter in all of the different areas and came up with this number.
So the National Park Service came up with 400,000, and our number was more than twice as much.
SAN MIGUEL: So I am wondering -- let me interrupt because we only have about a minute left here. I know that because of the controversy involving that big gap there between the Park Service numbers and what the organizers of the Million Man March said, the Park Service is out of the business now of guesstimating crowds. What kind of technology would be needed to get more accurate figures on these kinds of events?
EL-BAZ: The reason the National Park Service got out of it was actually because they asked me to write them to tell them what should they do to get the real number. And we told them that they need to have a fixed wing aircraft to fly directly over the crowds with a window to take -- put a camera and to take photographs, and the images can be transmitted digitally and fast to computers, where analysts can actually do this automatically and very accurately.
But there is that dollar sign to that, and so the National Park Service took this proposal, or the white paper that we made, and took it to Congress to say either you can give us this money to do it the way the experts know how to do it, or we should get out of the business of counting people. And Congress said, no, you should get out of the business.
SAN MIGUEL: OK. So now we're going to rely on just the event organizers to give us these kind of numbers, so I guess we'll keep talking about estimates and accuracy or inaccuracy, as long as these events still keep going on. Dr. Farouk El-Baz, Boston University, Center for Remote Sensing, thanks so much for joining us today.
EL-BAZ: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, speaking of counting, don't count on delete meaning delete when you hit that key on your computer.
We'll talk with a guy who found thousands of credit card numbers on discarded and supposedly erased computers.
And later, this woman is not shooting fish in a barrel. She is fishing for evidence. An inside look at ballistics testing when NEXT@CNN returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(INTERRUPTED FOR COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
SAN MIGUEL: Well, making technology news this week, a high flying, high speed connection. The first ever in-flight broadband Internet connection made its debut on a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Washington. Passengers surfed the Web, checked their e- mail and logged on to their company networks. The service is free, at least for the next three months while the airline is testing it. It was developed by Boeing, which hopes the convenience will lure some business travelers back to the air.
The souped up pagers called Blackberries got some support this week from friends in high places. The company that makes Blackberry is involved in a patent infringement dispute. On Thursday, an official with the U.S. Congress sent a letter asking attorneys to try to settle things without disrupting Blackberry operations. The letter says if the Blackberry service were stopped, it would, quote, "significantly impact the ability of the House to conduct business."
U.S. intelligence officials are worried that pro-Iraq computer hackers pose a growing security threat, that according to the "New York Times." "The Times" quotes an FBI report warning that cyber attacks against U.S. government and military computer networks have increased recently. The report says the attacks are likely to grow more widespread and more dangerous, and that the situation is considered a potential crisis.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am David Mattingly in Yellowstone National Park, where there is a move to clean up a 40- year-old tradition, snowmobiling. A case of too much of a good thing. That story later on NEXT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAN MIGUEL: You have probably how a judge has ruled that Lee Malvo, the 17-year-old arrested in the Washington, D.C. sniper shootings, can be tried for murder as an adult. The judge found no eyewitnesses linking Malvo to the shootings, but he called circumstantial evidence, quote, "quite strong," and that evidence includes ballistic tests. In an exclusive visit to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation crime lab, CNN investigative correspondent Art Harris learned how one bullet was matched to a gun allegedly tied to the sniper suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bernadette Davy, a veteran firearms examiner issuing bullets into a barrel of water. She goes fishing for bad guys. Reeling in bullets she tries to match with recovered bullets believed fired by the most armed and dangerous.
It often begins with a homicide and a hunch, as it did when an Atlanta detective asked Ms. Davy to look at a bullet taken from a victim shot and killed at this Atlanta liquor store, and suspected as coming from a handgun found near a shooting at this Montgomery, Alabama liquor store, and tied to sniper suspects John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.
Davy put test bullets from the suspects' gun under her microscope and found...
BERNADETTE DAVY, CSI: It had identical markings as the evidence bullet that was retrieved from the homicide victim here in Atlanta.
HARRIS: With no eyewitnesses to the shootings, experts say it is the science of ballistics that has linked the sniper suspects to more than a dozen murders.
Here's how it works. Ms. Davy at the George Bureau of Investigation fires into the tank of water and retrieves the test round, now marked by the way bullets leave the barrel, a bullet's so- called fingerprint.
(on camera): You have to have a comparison from this gun to match it to an unknown bullet.
DAVY: Correct. You have got to have a gun to match something back to it.
HARRIS (voice-over): Under a microscope, the test bullet projected onto a computer screen. She rotates it side by side with the crime scene bullet.
(on camera): What am I looking for?
DAVY: First thing you do is you want to find what we call a landmark.
HARRIS (voice-over): Landmarks are similar lines and grooves. Davy expects to be called to testify about the Atlanta bullet at the sniper trials.
DAVY: No two people have the same DNA and no two people have the same fingerprints. It's the same thing with a gun; no two barrels have the same markings.
HARRIS: Ballistic test results from crime scenes and bodies.
(on camera): Prosecutors routinely introduce ballistics as bulletproof evidence, and legal experts say juries are prone to believe ballistics as gospel, because they hear it preached so often on their favorite TV crime shows.
(voice-over): But in real life, defense attorneys like Bruce Harvey dispute ballistics as pure science.
BRUCE HARVEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's not. There's no biological imperative in a projectile. There may be in fingertips, but there certainly isn't in ballistics, there certainly isn't in barrels that are manufactured by a machine that come off an assembly line. The whole basis is speculation that every barrel machine has some microscopic differences.
HARRIS: But law enforcement believes gun barrels mark accurately.
We showed Harvey the GBI's match of two bullets fired from the same gun.
HARVEY: You see here, there are apparent differences there from the projectile on the left. Where the objective standards to make a determination? Who makes the call? There are none, that's why it is a subjective skill and not an objective scientific fact.
HARRIS: But on the stand, firearm examiners like Davy make hard targets.
(on camera): Have you faced a few Perry Masons?
DAVY: I've had my share.
HARRIS (voice-over): She says she can't let emotion for the victim show, or play a part.
(on camera): Another body, another bullet?
DAVY: Basically. That seems kind of callous, but that's just the way you have to approach it.
HARRIS (voice-over): What the bullet reveals is the bottom line.
DAVY: These two bullets were definitely fired from the same gun.
HARRIS (on camera): So help you God?
DAVY: So help me God.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAN MIGUEL: Art Harris joins us now with more on that story. There is so much science, as you would expect, with something like this, but there was also some gut instincts, some hunches involved here. Talk a little bit about that.
HARRIS: In fact, the cousin of the victim, Milian Valdamerian (ph), who was a 41-year-old Ethiopian immigrant, when he saw that the alleged snipers were on this cross country murder spree, he said I wonder if my cousin who was helping this liquor store owner that night could have been one of the victims. And he called the Atlanta homicide detective, Johnny Fagler (ph), who had been following that hunch, and, in fact, called the Montgomery police and said, gee, I wonder could my victim be similar to your victim outside this Montgomery liquor store where someone was -- a woman was gunned down and later linked to the Bushmaster rifle that was found, and another was possibly linked to a handgun found later in the bushes.
And in fact, they took that handgun, they test fired it, and that hunch paid off. And this is where they tested it later and matched it to a bullet from the Atlanta victim that matched the gun that was used -- that had been used in the Montgomery shooting.
SAN MIGUEL: So you had like a human element here involved.
And show us the bullets here. I mean, what is this we're talking about.
HARRIS: This is a .22 long shell from the actual .22 arms revolver that Bernadette Davy fired into the barrel of water you just saw, and similar to the bullets that were used in the liquor store hold-up in Montgomery, fired from this ivory-plated revolver, a Derringer, really, it looks like a Derringer, but it has a chamber. And so you can see, Renay, that's not a typical small .22, but has a lot more charge than a short round.
SAN MIGUEL: And so much riding on it in terms of, you know, justice, that kind of thing, from the findings that you might get. Did they tell the examiner about a bullet (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
HARRIS: Great question. They don't want to bias an examiner by telling them how important this kind of test can be. So they wanted her to perform her own blind test, she said just another body, just another bullet, all in the day's work for Bernadette Davy and the George Bureau of Investigation, and she came back, well, it looks like a match to me, I can swear to it on the stand. And then they told her, you just matched this bullet to the alleged snipers.
SAN MIGUEL: OK. And by that, you take away any kind of defense attorney argument about any kind of bias that might come up later during the trial itself?
HARRIS: A good defense attorney is going to argue that this is voodoo science, that ballistics is more art than real science, and it's all in the interpretation of these lines and grooves on the bullet that go down the barrel and into the victim. The bottom line is that a bullet can tell a life and death story.
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly. One final question here, this is all they have got, basically, because there are no eyewitnesses -- even if you had one, an eyewitness' testimony can be torn down in court. This becomes so critical here.
HARRIS: Exactly, Renay. In this case, there are no eyewitnesses, and we later learned why, because allegedly they were firing from the inside of this trunk, and so this mystery madness comes out of nowhere in the darkness, and people are falling, and same thing happened in Atlanta. Even with these supposed MOs of liquor store hold-ups, closing time, so that they could rob and petty thievery kept them going and kept them allegedly on their spree, funded their cross-country nightmare. And so you have no real eyewitnesses. You have only bullets from victims matching the guns they allegedly used.
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly. Well, you know, there is a lot of dramatic series out there right now that are based on this kind of forensic science. Here is a real-life trauma. Thank you for bringing it to us. Art Harris, we appreciate your time.
HARRIS: Thank you.
ANNOUNCER: More coming up on NEXT, including the latest from the shuttle Columbia, and the first Israeli to fly in space. Ways to get your income tax returns more quickly without extra fees.
And a new game with no shooting but lots of status symbols.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAN MIGUEL: Welcome back to NEXT@CNN. On Thursday, Israel joined the ranks of nations that have sent a citizen out of this world. CNN space correspondent Miles O'Brien was there to witness it and is here to tell us about it.
Safe to say, probably unprecedented security involved here.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Renay, I've been to a lot of shuttle launches, as you know. And I've never been to one where there was so much focus upon the safety of the shuttle long before it launches. And that's what this was all about.
Forty-eight-year-old Israeli Ilan Ramon sat atop the "Space Shuttle Columbia", with incredibly tight security, looking out for potential threats.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one. We have booster ignition and lift off of space shuttle...
O'BRIEN (voice over): It was a flawless, albeit, tense countdown. Under clear blue skies the old gray lady of the space shuttle fleet, Columbia, added a chapter to her storied history. On the orbiter's 28th trip to space, Columbia carried Israel's first astronaut.
Ilan Ramon is a 48-year-old colonel in the Israeli air force, a decorated fighter pilot. His presence in the seven-member crew made for a security nightmare, but NASA's plan to keep the shuttle safe and secure paid off.
DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: It was the moment of pride and happiness for all Israelis, Jewish people. And I think it was a great moment for Israeli/American relationships. So, we were all very proud and happy about it.
O'BRIEN: Security has never been tighter for a space shuttle launch. Air force fighters enforced a strict no-fly zone around the launch pad. The crew traveled to the shuttle under the watchful eyes of SWAT teams with automatic weapons.
ILAN RAMON, ISRAELI ASTRONAUT: I know the NASA security people are doing their best for us and since September 11, unfortunately, it is kind of a world issue here.
O'BRIEN: The mission is a jam-packed 24/7 science marathon in low earth orbit. Working in a 2,000-cubic foot lab bolted into the cargo hold, the crew will study fires, moss gross, human prostate cancer cells, and how rats adapt to weightlessness.
They also will be their own guinea pigs measuring their own bone loss and how their immune system fare. And they will spend a lot of time looking out the window how dust storms affect global warming; 80 experiments in all.
WILLIAM MCCOOL, SHUTTLE PILOT: You are very much bang for the buck, in the sense that we're packing so much science into one 16-day mission. A lot of it is applicable in the long term. Admittedly, you're not going to see results tomorrow. A lot of it is results tomorrow-ish kind of science.
SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATION: The importance of what's aboard this flight and, again, the proficiency and expertise of this crew, is just over the top.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Now one of those experiments will look at tiny bacteria and how they endure the rigors of space. The idea is to test a theory that bacteria could have been the seeds of life and could have been transported from planet to planet on meteorites.
Interesting theory, but what is perhaps most interesting about this particular experiment, is that there are two principal scientists on it, and one an Israeli, the other one a Palestinian. Proving, perhaps, the high frontier is one place where folks can find common ground.
Now, you're looking at some rare pictures coming down from space hab (ph) double module, on this mission right now. I say rare, because most of the TV time is devoted to looking at the close-up versions of things like this.
Check out these ants. This is a student experiment to see how harvester ants do in space. Turns out they do pretty well. They're making colonies just as they normally would. And the workers are doing their thing. So, I guess ...
SAN MIGUEL: Like the ant farm, that we used to have in high school.
O'BRIEN: It's like the ant farm, it is not unlike a "Simpson's" episode, I'm told.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: But we're not going to show the tape of that.
SAN MIGUEL: We will do without it.
O'BRIEN: Now, in just about a half hour time, I know you'll be watching, Renay, we're going to be interviewing Colonel Ilan Ramon, and other members of the Columbia crew, live from space. Don't ask me how it's done, it's magic. SAN MIGUEL: Oh, all right then. And I know, that as William McCool said, they have such a busy schedule up there. Do we know what's going on, on this day today?
O'BRIEN: Well, you know, they have 80 experiments it is like scientific juggling act, is what it boils down to. They're all running concurrently. A few moments ago we were looking at the ants. They have rats up there, they're not going to show the rats because they're concerned about hearing from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and such.
SAN MIGUEL: I understand that.
O'BRIEN: But I want to see how the rats are faring as well.
SAN MIGUEL: OK, Miles O'Brien. Thanks a lot. We appreciate it.
O'BRIEN: My pleasure.
SAN MIGUEL: While NASA launched a shuttle this week, the IRS had a launch of its own. We will give you a peek at a service that could get you a faster tax return with less hassle and no extra fees. That and more when NEXT@CNN returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Lots of high fives as oceanography Bob Ballard and his team, working with the Bulgarian government discovered artifacts discovered at the bottom of the Black Sea, dating back to about 500 years B.C.
Those muddy clumps are amphoras, about two dozen of them. Those are industrial-sized containers once used to store wine and olive oil. Researchers now realize they were used to store fish. After carefully hauling up and analyzing one of the containers, they found large fish bones inside.
Makes researchers think the ship started its voyage in Turkey, and stopped in Crimea, known for its freshwater fish. The ship sunk before it reached its destination, Greece, where dried salted fish may have been a delectable treat for the masses.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, W-2 forms are arriving in the mail and soon you'll have to start thinking about that wonderful three-letter acronym IRS. The taxman cometh, but it might be a bit easier this year with a new e-file program announced on Thursday. Joining us to talk about that is a man who will have to pay taxes in two countries this year, our technology correspondent Daniel Sieberg.
Lucky you.
DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hello, Renay.
I'm hoping that one will balance out the other, maybe a refund and a payment, something like that?
SAN MIGUEL: Nice shot.
SIEBERG: Yes, hoping so.
Anyway, here in the U.S. you might be receiving one of these in the mail, talking about e-filing and this new initiative. What we can tell you about it is that it's offering you the chance to prepare and file your taxes online for free.
We're going to do a little tour of the IRS Web site to show you how you get started. This is where you go to IRS.gov. You can see here, they're talking about free file, up at the top. Once you go there it gives you a little bit of information on how to get started.
That is the key to all of this, because really it depends on whether you're eligible to file your taxes for free online. Not everybody is, but part of this initiative is that at least 60 percent of Americans have to qualify for this free filing initiative.
So, you can click here on this, sort of, before you get started, sort of a frequently asked questions, you can go in and find out if you're eligible for it. And it basically comes down to your status, your income, and perhaps even where you live, which state you live. Check out all those things before you get started and get your W-2s together.
Once you're done with that, you can click on the "Start Now" feature. This will bring you to the link that has all these private companies. A number of private companies are actually providing this software and each one is a little bit different. We can see here for Turbo Tax on the web up here, you need an income of $27,000 or less. Some of the other ones here are a little bit different. So really it depends on whether you qualify or not for these different software and for the free filing initiative.
Once you have done that, you would basically choose the service you want, choose the one you want. And it will take you outside of the Web site to the private company, where you would then put in all of your information and fill it all out.
But again it is sort of a combination of your eligibility and where you would live and the information you would have to put in. And all there are all these different companies there.
If you're on the border you're not sure whether you want to file your taxes online you might want to go this paperless way, because this is certainly free. And it is not often you hear the words "free" and "IRS" in the same sentence together. So, again, at IRS.gov., is the place to go.
Well, NEXT@CNN will return after a break.
MATTINGLY: And I'm David Mattingly in Yellowstone National Park, where at times the winter air can become so polluted it rivals that of some large cities. And snow mobiles are to blame. I'll have that story next on NEXT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAN MIGUEL: In environment news this week, Canadian researchers say several type of sharks are near extinction in the North Atlantic and over fishing is to blame. Their report in the journal "Nature" says Scalloped, Hammerhead and Thresher sharks have decline by an estimated 75 percent in the past 15 years. The researchers analyzed the number of sharks accidentally caught on fishing long lines between 1986 and 2000. Tomorrow on our Sunday edition of NEXT, we'll talk with one of the researchers who sounded the alarm. That's at 4 p.m. Eastern, tomorrow, on CNN.
There's some cautious optimism for another endangered marine critter. Biologists say the number of Stellar sea lions off Western Alaska is up about 5 percent. And that's the first increase in more than 20 years of observation. The population of these mammals has dropped 80 percent since the 1970s. Industrial scale fishing, pollution, and climate shifts may all be causes for the long-term decline.
Now for penguins and the power of suggestion. The penguins at the San Francisco Zoo have started swimming laps around their island in the past few weeks, after being couch potatoes for years. The change came hours after zookeepers announced six new birds to the flock on Christmas Eve.
Apparently, the six newcomers quickly convinced the 46 old- timers that swimming was a good thing. Zoo official think some migratory instinct may also have kicked in. The penguin keeper is hoping the marathon swimming will slow down next month when the breeding season starts and penguins normally take to their burrows.
Well, this week the National Park Conservation Association announced its list of America's 10 most endangered national parks. Yellowstone was on that list. The site of a year's old debate on whether to ban snowmobiles inside the park. CNN's David Mattingly comes to us now live, from West Yellowstone. He has more on this story -- David.
MATTINGLY: Hi, Renay. The first snowmobiles were allowed in Yellowstone back in 1963, and since then they have pretty much had a run of the park in the wintertime.
But now they're so popular, and so many in the park, that they have created air pollution problems that rival some of our biggest cities, and that means the days of wide open winter fun may soon be coming to an end.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice over): Some weekends over 1,000 snowmobilers a day, many unsupervised, pay the $15 entrance fee and buzz through the gates at Yellowstone, for an eye-popping look at the park in the winter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's a lot of fun. We're enjoying it, because we get to see a lot of different types of terrain and country. MATTINGLY: But the days of free-wheeling, do-it-yourself snowmobiling may soon end, new rules pending for Yellowstone would ban some snowmobiles, limit others, and restrict riders to guided tours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cleaner snowmobiles, quieter snowmobiles, with guides. They'll be able to appreciate and understand the park even better than they do today.
MATTINGLY: And it could have been worse. Air pollution from snowmobiles in Yellowstone is so bad the Clinton administration tried to have them banned. Environmentalists also say their noise is harmful to wildlife. This video from the Greater Yellowstone Coalition shows bison scattering, unable to share the road.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd like these people to come back in July and August and look at the vehicles with diesel and gasoline, and the people that harass the animals.
MATTINGLY: But after 40 years of no restrictions, can the Yellowstone snowmobile tradition endure? I took to the road for an icy thrill ride along the wintry landscape, passing long lines of single file riders, and encountering snowmobilers worried about their loss of freedom, but equally worried about the future of the park.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We definitely think there are things that can be done to improve air quality if that's part of the issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: And the plan is not without its critics on both sides, people who rent snowmobiles say that it will hurt their livelihood to have to reinvest so quickly in cleaner burning machines. And environmentalists are saying this new this new plan isn't going to do a lot to clean up the air or protect wildlife -- Renay.
SAN MIGUEL: All right, David Mattingly, reporting from Yellowstone. Thanks a lot.
And now, joining us to discuss this issue are Don Barry, he's a former assistant interior secretary who helped lead the Clinton administration's efforts to restrict snowmobile access in the park. Mr. Barry is now with the Wilderness Society.
Thank you for being with us today, sir.
DON BARRY, WILDERNESS SOCIETY: Good morning.
SAN MIGUEL: And from the stage of the controversy we have Jerry Johnson, he's the mayor of West Yellowstone, Montana. And also the owner of a snowmobile rental company in the area.
Mr. Mayor, let me go ahead and start off with you. If you have to cut back on the snowmobile rentals here, do you have to lay people off? Is it going to affect your business?
MAYOR JERRY JOHNSON, WEST YELLOWSTONE, MONTANA: Well, there is not doubt that it will affect our business and it will affect the economy of West Yellowstone in the wintertime.
SAN MIGUEL: So, tell me exactly, you know how many more people will be impacted by that situation, with being in a similar situation that you would be in?
JOHNSON: Well, there's approximately 14 rental agencies in town. And you have about 1,000 motel rooms in town. You have 20 plus restaurants in town. And you have a school. You have all of our infrastructure in West Yellowstone, the police, the ambulance, all of that would be negatively impacted by any kind of decrease.
SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Barry, with that kind of economic backdrop there, with any kind of decrease in use of snowmobiles, do you feel like this is the way to go, or is there some exaggeration going on here?
BARRY: Well, the Park Service's own statistics, and I think they're backed up by EPA as well, shows that the overall expected decrease in the five-county area, in terms of the economy, would only be about 1 percent.
So, we don't believe that in fact, West Yellowstone or the other surrounding areas will have anywhere near that devastating an economic loss. We believe that if they had transitioned over to a better snow coach fleet, they could have actually offset any loss in the snowmobiling business itself and probably actually have gain some ground.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, you know, this show is all about technology here, isn't there some way that the new technologies can make for more cleaner, efficiently burning engines, could play a part here?
BARRY: Well, you hear an awful lot of happy talk about cleaner and quieter technology being part of the new Park Service proposal, but even the Park Service's own final environmental impact statement that they circulated for comment, expressly acknowledges that this new proposal will still allow for an increase in air pollution, and increase in noise pollution, an increase in wildlife harassment impacts and an increase in risk public health from the phase out proposal.
Here's an example, you may be cutting down on the amount of carbon monoxide in the park, but you're going to dramatically increase the amount of nitrogen oxide. And nitrogen is what causes the haze.
So, it's really a set of tradeoff, but we still feel it is going to result in an adverse impact on Yellowstone National Park.
SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Mayor, why would -- I mean, I've never been to Yellowstone, I am sure it is a beautiful place, I would like to go sometime, but why would I want to use a snowmobile to see it during the winter? Why not just hike it or do cross-country skiing, that kind of thing?
JOHNSON: First of all, you're not going to get to any of the feature unless you're a 20 to 30-year-old person in excellent condition, to get from West Yellowstone, from our gate, to any features on skis or snowshoes or hiking. You're going to have to use a motorized process.
And one of those processes needs to either be on a snow coach, which the technology isn't here yet for the snow coaches. But the technology is here for the snowmobiles and the cleaner quieter snowmobiles are what we're going to be using when the new plan is implemented. Any type of a complete ban of entry of a motor transportation to Yellowstone National Park has to impact the economy. And that's just common sense.
SAN MIGUEL: So tell me about the idea that Mr. Barry says that the Park Service employees have to wear gas masks, because of all the toxic fumes created by the snowmobiles. That would chase away tourists too, right?
JOHNSON: Yeah. You know, the fumes are very -- do have a negative impact on folks who are around them a lot, especially if they have a sensitive system. But the Park Service has done things like put ventilation systems in the kiosks, that was not only for the winter, but also for the summer.
The town of West Yellowstone, and the business owners in West Yellowstone, implemented the park passes being sold in town. The snowmobiles just have to roll through the gate and show the park passes. We implemented the use of ethanol, the use of synthetic fuels. And those are the things that we've done to offset the two-stroke emissions. And now within a year, you know, all that's going to be lowered even more with the use of total four-stroke or the latest technology in the snowmobiles.
Mr. Barry, we'll give you the last question here. You say the Park Service should decide regulation of snowmobiles, and not the Environmental Protection Agency. Why? I mean, it seems to be the EPA's bailiwick right there?
BARRY: Well, Congress said, decades ago, said that the national parks are to be managed to the highest protective standards possible. And what the Park Service is looking for are different factors and different concerns than the Environmental Protection Agency would take into account. So, their standards are different. Their goal is to protect these special areas for the benefit of future generations and to leave them unimpaired. And that's not the regulatory standard that EPA uses.
SAN MIGUEL: Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. Donald Barry, chief of operations, Wilderness Society, Jerry Johnson, the mayor of West Yellowstone, thank you both for joining us. We appreciate your time.
BARRY: Thank you, Renay.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, why would you want to play a game where there are no winners or losers? Because it's there. We'll take this game for a spin, give you the lowdown when we come back.
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(INTERRUPTED FOR COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
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Crowds?; Government Helps Taxpayers>
Aired January 18, 2003 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Today on NEXT@CNN -- can snowmobiles and nature coexist? The fun machines have landed Yellowstone on the list of most endangered parks. We'll take you to the scene of the controversy.
Another protest, another disagreement over the crowd count. Found out how the experts do the math.
You say you want your tax refunds faster and with less grief. Believe it or not, the government is here to help.
And we'll take you to a virtual online universe, where you can meet other people, go on exotic vacations and even visit other planets. All that and more on NEXT.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Protesters are gathered in Washington today to express their opposition to war in Iraq. Whenever there is a big march or protest, everyone always wants to know how big is the crowd. Usually there are bragging rights and political agendas associated with those figures. CNN's Kathleen Koch is on the Mall this afternoon keeping tabs on the activities. Kathleen, don't worry, we're not going to ask you for a precise head count, but just tell us an estimate of what the turnout looks like right now.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Renay, I'll have our cameras swoop up and it will show you -- we have a slight problem right now, and that many of the demonstrators have left about 45 minutes ago. They started heading up to Capitol Hill for a march, and numbers have dropped off dramatically, but the estimate is that it was roughly about 200,000; now that according to the organizers, of course, have a stake in that.
It was clearly not as large as other protests I have covered. For instance, the Promise Keepers back in 1997, or the Million Man March. Now, that was back in 1995, and it was at that event that they claimed to have a turnout -- or, excuse me, the Park Police estimated the turnout at about 400,000.
However, those who organized that event, Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam said, no, no, we have some 870,000 people here. They even had at least one expert who backed them up on that, and so there was a great deal of controversy, even lawsuits threatened. And finally, the Congress just said simply no more counting by the U.S. Park Police.
Now, when you look back through history, we have had numerous very, very large marches and events here in Washington; the largest that was ever counted was back in 1965, and that was for the inaugural of President Lyndon B. Johnson. That's when they say some 1.2 million people turned out.
Now the second largest was said to be back in 1976, celebrating the nation's bicentennial here on the 4th of July, when they said about a million people turned out.
And of course, Renay, you know, why does everyone care about how many people are here? Because in this city, numbers count. Numbers put people in office, numbers win votes on Capitol Hill. And so competing groups, especially on very polarizing issues like the abortion issue, they point to the turnout at their dueling rallies, at their dueling marches every year as proof that their cause is one favored over their opponent, so a very important issue for a lot of people.
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly, Kathleen. Talks about the strength or weakness of a particular cause on a given day. Thank you very much for that report and we hope you stay warm today.
Well, here to fill us in on how those experts do indeed make those crowd estimates is Dr. Farouk El-Baz of Boston University's Center for Remote Sensing. Dr. El-Baz, thank you for being with us today.
FAROUK EL-BAZ, CENTER FOR REMOTE SENSING: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: So how do most people estimate these crowd sizes, and does it matter who's doing the counting?
EL-BAZ: Most estimates are really done by looking at the crowds either from the ground or from a building or from a helicopter and guesstimate. So all of these are not real counts and they're not even estimates, they're guesstimates. Because no one can really look at the crowd and figure a possible number.
SAN MIGUEL: Kathleen did mention the Million Man March, and I know that you got involved with that one in 1997. Tell us what happened there. The National Park Service came up with a final estimate of about 400,000 people. You came in, you looked at some photographs, and you came in with your final estimate of about twice that, 837,000. What happened? Why such a big gap there?
EL-BAZ: The National Park Service did the count by flying over the crowds and not necessarily straight over. They flew away from the crowds. And because they were afraid that if something happened to the aircraft and it dropped, it would kill people. So they don't really fly over the crowds to get a good view, but they fly on the side, away from the crowd, at least one block away from the crowd, and they estimate the number basically from the number of buses that come into town, the number of cars that are parked near the area, and the number of tickets for the transport, the mass transit.
So all of these are guesstimates. There is not a real way of making certain that the number that's given is exactly represented. So what we did was to take photographs taken by the National Park Service helicopters and then process them, with computers, in the way that we process other satellite images, in a way that they had actually designed to count the number of sand dunes in a desert, by completing a grid on a unit area, and counting the number of sand dunes. And we did that with people, so we counted how many people per square meter in all of the different areas and came up with this number.
So the National Park Service came up with 400,000, and our number was more than twice as much.
SAN MIGUEL: So I am wondering -- let me interrupt because we only have about a minute left here. I know that because of the controversy involving that big gap there between the Park Service numbers and what the organizers of the Million Man March said, the Park Service is out of the business now of guesstimating crowds. What kind of technology would be needed to get more accurate figures on these kinds of events?
EL-BAZ: The reason the National Park Service got out of it was actually because they asked me to write them to tell them what should they do to get the real number. And we told them that they need to have a fixed wing aircraft to fly directly over the crowds with a window to take -- put a camera and to take photographs, and the images can be transmitted digitally and fast to computers, where analysts can actually do this automatically and very accurately.
But there is that dollar sign to that, and so the National Park Service took this proposal, or the white paper that we made, and took it to Congress to say either you can give us this money to do it the way the experts know how to do it, or we should get out of the business of counting people. And Congress said, no, you should get out of the business.
SAN MIGUEL: OK. So now we're going to rely on just the event organizers to give us these kind of numbers, so I guess we'll keep talking about estimates and accuracy or inaccuracy, as long as these events still keep going on. Dr. Farouk El-Baz, Boston University, Center for Remote Sensing, thanks so much for joining us today.
EL-BAZ: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, speaking of counting, don't count on delete meaning delete when you hit that key on your computer.
We'll talk with a guy who found thousands of credit card numbers on discarded and supposedly erased computers.
And later, this woman is not shooting fish in a barrel. She is fishing for evidence. An inside look at ballistics testing when NEXT@CNN returns.
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SAN MIGUEL: Well, making technology news this week, a high flying, high speed connection. The first ever in-flight broadband Internet connection made its debut on a Lufthansa flight from Frankfurt to Washington. Passengers surfed the Web, checked their e- mail and logged on to their company networks. The service is free, at least for the next three months while the airline is testing it. It was developed by Boeing, which hopes the convenience will lure some business travelers back to the air.
The souped up pagers called Blackberries got some support this week from friends in high places. The company that makes Blackberry is involved in a patent infringement dispute. On Thursday, an official with the U.S. Congress sent a letter asking attorneys to try to settle things without disrupting Blackberry operations. The letter says if the Blackberry service were stopped, it would, quote, "significantly impact the ability of the House to conduct business."
U.S. intelligence officials are worried that pro-Iraq computer hackers pose a growing security threat, that according to the "New York Times." "The Times" quotes an FBI report warning that cyber attacks against U.S. government and military computer networks have increased recently. The report says the attacks are likely to grow more widespread and more dangerous, and that the situation is considered a potential crisis.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I am David Mattingly in Yellowstone National Park, where there is a move to clean up a 40- year-old tradition, snowmobiling. A case of too much of a good thing. That story later on NEXT.
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SAN MIGUEL: You have probably how a judge has ruled that Lee Malvo, the 17-year-old arrested in the Washington, D.C. sniper shootings, can be tried for murder as an adult. The judge found no eyewitnesses linking Malvo to the shootings, but he called circumstantial evidence, quote, "quite strong," and that evidence includes ballistic tests. In an exclusive visit to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation crime lab, CNN investigative correspondent Art Harris learned how one bullet was matched to a gun allegedly tied to the sniper suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bernadette Davy, a veteran firearms examiner issuing bullets into a barrel of water. She goes fishing for bad guys. Reeling in bullets she tries to match with recovered bullets believed fired by the most armed and dangerous.
It often begins with a homicide and a hunch, as it did when an Atlanta detective asked Ms. Davy to look at a bullet taken from a victim shot and killed at this Atlanta liquor store, and suspected as coming from a handgun found near a shooting at this Montgomery, Alabama liquor store, and tied to sniper suspects John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.
Davy put test bullets from the suspects' gun under her microscope and found...
BERNADETTE DAVY, CSI: It had identical markings as the evidence bullet that was retrieved from the homicide victim here in Atlanta.
HARRIS: With no eyewitnesses to the shootings, experts say it is the science of ballistics that has linked the sniper suspects to more than a dozen murders.
Here's how it works. Ms. Davy at the George Bureau of Investigation fires into the tank of water and retrieves the test round, now marked by the way bullets leave the barrel, a bullet's so- called fingerprint.
(on camera): You have to have a comparison from this gun to match it to an unknown bullet.
DAVY: Correct. You have got to have a gun to match something back to it.
HARRIS (voice-over): Under a microscope, the test bullet projected onto a computer screen. She rotates it side by side with the crime scene bullet.
(on camera): What am I looking for?
DAVY: First thing you do is you want to find what we call a landmark.
HARRIS (voice-over): Landmarks are similar lines and grooves. Davy expects to be called to testify about the Atlanta bullet at the sniper trials.
DAVY: No two people have the same DNA and no two people have the same fingerprints. It's the same thing with a gun; no two barrels have the same markings.
HARRIS: Ballistic test results from crime scenes and bodies.
(on camera): Prosecutors routinely introduce ballistics as bulletproof evidence, and legal experts say juries are prone to believe ballistics as gospel, because they hear it preached so often on their favorite TV crime shows.
(voice-over): But in real life, defense attorneys like Bruce Harvey dispute ballistics as pure science.
BRUCE HARVEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's not. There's no biological imperative in a projectile. There may be in fingertips, but there certainly isn't in ballistics, there certainly isn't in barrels that are manufactured by a machine that come off an assembly line. The whole basis is speculation that every barrel machine has some microscopic differences.
HARRIS: But law enforcement believes gun barrels mark accurately.
We showed Harvey the GBI's match of two bullets fired from the same gun.
HARVEY: You see here, there are apparent differences there from the projectile on the left. Where the objective standards to make a determination? Who makes the call? There are none, that's why it is a subjective skill and not an objective scientific fact.
HARRIS: But on the stand, firearm examiners like Davy make hard targets.
(on camera): Have you faced a few Perry Masons?
DAVY: I've had my share.
HARRIS (voice-over): She says she can't let emotion for the victim show, or play a part.
(on camera): Another body, another bullet?
DAVY: Basically. That seems kind of callous, but that's just the way you have to approach it.
HARRIS (voice-over): What the bullet reveals is the bottom line.
DAVY: These two bullets were definitely fired from the same gun.
HARRIS (on camera): So help you God?
DAVY: So help me God.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SAN MIGUEL: Art Harris joins us now with more on that story. There is so much science, as you would expect, with something like this, but there was also some gut instincts, some hunches involved here. Talk a little bit about that.
HARRIS: In fact, the cousin of the victim, Milian Valdamerian (ph), who was a 41-year-old Ethiopian immigrant, when he saw that the alleged snipers were on this cross country murder spree, he said I wonder if my cousin who was helping this liquor store owner that night could have been one of the victims. And he called the Atlanta homicide detective, Johnny Fagler (ph), who had been following that hunch, and, in fact, called the Montgomery police and said, gee, I wonder could my victim be similar to your victim outside this Montgomery liquor store where someone was -- a woman was gunned down and later linked to the Bushmaster rifle that was found, and another was possibly linked to a handgun found later in the bushes.
And in fact, they took that handgun, they test fired it, and that hunch paid off. And this is where they tested it later and matched it to a bullet from the Atlanta victim that matched the gun that was used -- that had been used in the Montgomery shooting.
SAN MIGUEL: So you had like a human element here involved.
And show us the bullets here. I mean, what is this we're talking about.
HARRIS: This is a .22 long shell from the actual .22 arms revolver that Bernadette Davy fired into the barrel of water you just saw, and similar to the bullets that were used in the liquor store hold-up in Montgomery, fired from this ivory-plated revolver, a Derringer, really, it looks like a Derringer, but it has a chamber. And so you can see, Renay, that's not a typical small .22, but has a lot more charge than a short round.
SAN MIGUEL: And so much riding on it in terms of, you know, justice, that kind of thing, from the findings that you might get. Did they tell the examiner about a bullet (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
HARRIS: Great question. They don't want to bias an examiner by telling them how important this kind of test can be. So they wanted her to perform her own blind test, she said just another body, just another bullet, all in the day's work for Bernadette Davy and the George Bureau of Investigation, and she came back, well, it looks like a match to me, I can swear to it on the stand. And then they told her, you just matched this bullet to the alleged snipers.
SAN MIGUEL: OK. And by that, you take away any kind of defense attorney argument about any kind of bias that might come up later during the trial itself?
HARRIS: A good defense attorney is going to argue that this is voodoo science, that ballistics is more art than real science, and it's all in the interpretation of these lines and grooves on the bullet that go down the barrel and into the victim. The bottom line is that a bullet can tell a life and death story.
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly. One final question here, this is all they have got, basically, because there are no eyewitnesses -- even if you had one, an eyewitness' testimony can be torn down in court. This becomes so critical here.
HARRIS: Exactly, Renay. In this case, there are no eyewitnesses, and we later learned why, because allegedly they were firing from the inside of this trunk, and so this mystery madness comes out of nowhere in the darkness, and people are falling, and same thing happened in Atlanta. Even with these supposed MOs of liquor store hold-ups, closing time, so that they could rob and petty thievery kept them going and kept them allegedly on their spree, funded their cross-country nightmare. And so you have no real eyewitnesses. You have only bullets from victims matching the guns they allegedly used.
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly. Well, you know, there is a lot of dramatic series out there right now that are based on this kind of forensic science. Here is a real-life trauma. Thank you for bringing it to us. Art Harris, we appreciate your time.
HARRIS: Thank you.
ANNOUNCER: More coming up on NEXT, including the latest from the shuttle Columbia, and the first Israeli to fly in space. Ways to get your income tax returns more quickly without extra fees.
And a new game with no shooting but lots of status symbols.
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SAN MIGUEL: Welcome back to NEXT@CNN. On Thursday, Israel joined the ranks of nations that have sent a citizen out of this world. CNN space correspondent Miles O'Brien was there to witness it and is here to tell us about it.
Safe to say, probably unprecedented security involved here.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Renay, I've been to a lot of shuttle launches, as you know. And I've never been to one where there was so much focus upon the safety of the shuttle long before it launches. And that's what this was all about.
Forty-eight-year-old Israeli Ilan Ramon sat atop the "Space Shuttle Columbia", with incredibly tight security, looking out for potential threats.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, two, one. We have booster ignition and lift off of space shuttle...
O'BRIEN (voice over): It was a flawless, albeit, tense countdown. Under clear blue skies the old gray lady of the space shuttle fleet, Columbia, added a chapter to her storied history. On the orbiter's 28th trip to space, Columbia carried Israel's first astronaut.
Ilan Ramon is a 48-year-old colonel in the Israeli air force, a decorated fighter pilot. His presence in the seven-member crew made for a security nightmare, but NASA's plan to keep the shuttle safe and secure paid off.
DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: It was the moment of pride and happiness for all Israelis, Jewish people. And I think it was a great moment for Israeli/American relationships. So, we were all very proud and happy about it.
O'BRIEN: Security has never been tighter for a space shuttle launch. Air force fighters enforced a strict no-fly zone around the launch pad. The crew traveled to the shuttle under the watchful eyes of SWAT teams with automatic weapons.
ILAN RAMON, ISRAELI ASTRONAUT: I know the NASA security people are doing their best for us and since September 11, unfortunately, it is kind of a world issue here.
O'BRIEN: The mission is a jam-packed 24/7 science marathon in low earth orbit. Working in a 2,000-cubic foot lab bolted into the cargo hold, the crew will study fires, moss gross, human prostate cancer cells, and how rats adapt to weightlessness.
They also will be their own guinea pigs measuring their own bone loss and how their immune system fare. And they will spend a lot of time looking out the window how dust storms affect global warming; 80 experiments in all.
WILLIAM MCCOOL, SHUTTLE PILOT: You are very much bang for the buck, in the sense that we're packing so much science into one 16-day mission. A lot of it is applicable in the long term. Admittedly, you're not going to see results tomorrow. A lot of it is results tomorrow-ish kind of science.
SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATION: The importance of what's aboard this flight and, again, the proficiency and expertise of this crew, is just over the top.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Now one of those experiments will look at tiny bacteria and how they endure the rigors of space. The idea is to test a theory that bacteria could have been the seeds of life and could have been transported from planet to planet on meteorites.
Interesting theory, but what is perhaps most interesting about this particular experiment, is that there are two principal scientists on it, and one an Israeli, the other one a Palestinian. Proving, perhaps, the high frontier is one place where folks can find common ground.
Now, you're looking at some rare pictures coming down from space hab (ph) double module, on this mission right now. I say rare, because most of the TV time is devoted to looking at the close-up versions of things like this.
Check out these ants. This is a student experiment to see how harvester ants do in space. Turns out they do pretty well. They're making colonies just as they normally would. And the workers are doing their thing. So, I guess ...
SAN MIGUEL: Like the ant farm, that we used to have in high school.
O'BRIEN: It's like the ant farm, it is not unlike a "Simpson's" episode, I'm told.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: But we're not going to show the tape of that.
SAN MIGUEL: We will do without it.
O'BRIEN: Now, in just about a half hour time, I know you'll be watching, Renay, we're going to be interviewing Colonel Ilan Ramon, and other members of the Columbia crew, live from space. Don't ask me how it's done, it's magic. SAN MIGUEL: Oh, all right then. And I know, that as William McCool said, they have such a busy schedule up there. Do we know what's going on, on this day today?
O'BRIEN: Well, you know, they have 80 experiments it is like scientific juggling act, is what it boils down to. They're all running concurrently. A few moments ago we were looking at the ants. They have rats up there, they're not going to show the rats because they're concerned about hearing from People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and such.
SAN MIGUEL: I understand that.
O'BRIEN: But I want to see how the rats are faring as well.
SAN MIGUEL: OK, Miles O'Brien. Thanks a lot. We appreciate it.
O'BRIEN: My pleasure.
SAN MIGUEL: While NASA launched a shuttle this week, the IRS had a launch of its own. We will give you a peek at a service that could get you a faster tax return with less hassle and no extra fees. That and more when NEXT@CNN returns.
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ANNOUNCER: Lots of high fives as oceanography Bob Ballard and his team, working with the Bulgarian government discovered artifacts discovered at the bottom of the Black Sea, dating back to about 500 years B.C.
Those muddy clumps are amphoras, about two dozen of them. Those are industrial-sized containers once used to store wine and olive oil. Researchers now realize they were used to store fish. After carefully hauling up and analyzing one of the containers, they found large fish bones inside.
Makes researchers think the ship started its voyage in Turkey, and stopped in Crimea, known for its freshwater fish. The ship sunk before it reached its destination, Greece, where dried salted fish may have been a delectable treat for the masses.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, W-2 forms are arriving in the mail and soon you'll have to start thinking about that wonderful three-letter acronym IRS. The taxman cometh, but it might be a bit easier this year with a new e-file program announced on Thursday. Joining us to talk about that is a man who will have to pay taxes in two countries this year, our technology correspondent Daniel Sieberg.
Lucky you.
DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hello, Renay.
I'm hoping that one will balance out the other, maybe a refund and a payment, something like that?
SAN MIGUEL: Nice shot.
SIEBERG: Yes, hoping so.
Anyway, here in the U.S. you might be receiving one of these in the mail, talking about e-filing and this new initiative. What we can tell you about it is that it's offering you the chance to prepare and file your taxes online for free.
We're going to do a little tour of the IRS Web site to show you how you get started. This is where you go to IRS.gov. You can see here, they're talking about free file, up at the top. Once you go there it gives you a little bit of information on how to get started.
That is the key to all of this, because really it depends on whether you're eligible to file your taxes for free online. Not everybody is, but part of this initiative is that at least 60 percent of Americans have to qualify for this free filing initiative.
So, you can click here on this, sort of, before you get started, sort of a frequently asked questions, you can go in and find out if you're eligible for it. And it basically comes down to your status, your income, and perhaps even where you live, which state you live. Check out all those things before you get started and get your W-2s together.
Once you're done with that, you can click on the "Start Now" feature. This will bring you to the link that has all these private companies. A number of private companies are actually providing this software and each one is a little bit different. We can see here for Turbo Tax on the web up here, you need an income of $27,000 or less. Some of the other ones here are a little bit different. So really it depends on whether you qualify or not for these different software and for the free filing initiative.
Once you have done that, you would basically choose the service you want, choose the one you want. And it will take you outside of the Web site to the private company, where you would then put in all of your information and fill it all out.
But again it is sort of a combination of your eligibility and where you would live and the information you would have to put in. And all there are all these different companies there.
If you're on the border you're not sure whether you want to file your taxes online you might want to go this paperless way, because this is certainly free. And it is not often you hear the words "free" and "IRS" in the same sentence together. So, again, at IRS.gov., is the place to go.
Well, NEXT@CNN will return after a break.
MATTINGLY: And I'm David Mattingly in Yellowstone National Park, where at times the winter air can become so polluted it rivals that of some large cities. And snow mobiles are to blame. I'll have that story next on NEXT.
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SAN MIGUEL: In environment news this week, Canadian researchers say several type of sharks are near extinction in the North Atlantic and over fishing is to blame. Their report in the journal "Nature" says Scalloped, Hammerhead and Thresher sharks have decline by an estimated 75 percent in the past 15 years. The researchers analyzed the number of sharks accidentally caught on fishing long lines between 1986 and 2000. Tomorrow on our Sunday edition of NEXT, we'll talk with one of the researchers who sounded the alarm. That's at 4 p.m. Eastern, tomorrow, on CNN.
There's some cautious optimism for another endangered marine critter. Biologists say the number of Stellar sea lions off Western Alaska is up about 5 percent. And that's the first increase in more than 20 years of observation. The population of these mammals has dropped 80 percent since the 1970s. Industrial scale fishing, pollution, and climate shifts may all be causes for the long-term decline.
Now for penguins and the power of suggestion. The penguins at the San Francisco Zoo have started swimming laps around their island in the past few weeks, after being couch potatoes for years. The change came hours after zookeepers announced six new birds to the flock on Christmas Eve.
Apparently, the six newcomers quickly convinced the 46 old- timers that swimming was a good thing. Zoo official think some migratory instinct may also have kicked in. The penguin keeper is hoping the marathon swimming will slow down next month when the breeding season starts and penguins normally take to their burrows.
Well, this week the National Park Conservation Association announced its list of America's 10 most endangered national parks. Yellowstone was on that list. The site of a year's old debate on whether to ban snowmobiles inside the park. CNN's David Mattingly comes to us now live, from West Yellowstone. He has more on this story -- David.
MATTINGLY: Hi, Renay. The first snowmobiles were allowed in Yellowstone back in 1963, and since then they have pretty much had a run of the park in the wintertime.
But now they're so popular, and so many in the park, that they have created air pollution problems that rival some of our biggest cities, and that means the days of wide open winter fun may soon be coming to an end.
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MATTINGLY (voice over): Some weekends over 1,000 snowmobilers a day, many unsupervised, pay the $15 entrance fee and buzz through the gates at Yellowstone, for an eye-popping look at the park in the winter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's a lot of fun. We're enjoying it, because we get to see a lot of different types of terrain and country. MATTINGLY: But the days of free-wheeling, do-it-yourself snowmobiling may soon end, new rules pending for Yellowstone would ban some snowmobiles, limit others, and restrict riders to guided tours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cleaner snowmobiles, quieter snowmobiles, with guides. They'll be able to appreciate and understand the park even better than they do today.
MATTINGLY: And it could have been worse. Air pollution from snowmobiles in Yellowstone is so bad the Clinton administration tried to have them banned. Environmentalists also say their noise is harmful to wildlife. This video from the Greater Yellowstone Coalition shows bison scattering, unable to share the road.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd like these people to come back in July and August and look at the vehicles with diesel and gasoline, and the people that harass the animals.
MATTINGLY: But after 40 years of no restrictions, can the Yellowstone snowmobile tradition endure? I took to the road for an icy thrill ride along the wintry landscape, passing long lines of single file riders, and encountering snowmobilers worried about their loss of freedom, but equally worried about the future of the park.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We definitely think there are things that can be done to improve air quality if that's part of the issue.
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MATTINGLY: And the plan is not without its critics on both sides, people who rent snowmobiles say that it will hurt their livelihood to have to reinvest so quickly in cleaner burning machines. And environmentalists are saying this new this new plan isn't going to do a lot to clean up the air or protect wildlife -- Renay.
SAN MIGUEL: All right, David Mattingly, reporting from Yellowstone. Thanks a lot.
And now, joining us to discuss this issue are Don Barry, he's a former assistant interior secretary who helped lead the Clinton administration's efforts to restrict snowmobile access in the park. Mr. Barry is now with the Wilderness Society.
Thank you for being with us today, sir.
DON BARRY, WILDERNESS SOCIETY: Good morning.
SAN MIGUEL: And from the stage of the controversy we have Jerry Johnson, he's the mayor of West Yellowstone, Montana. And also the owner of a snowmobile rental company in the area.
Mr. Mayor, let me go ahead and start off with you. If you have to cut back on the snowmobile rentals here, do you have to lay people off? Is it going to affect your business?
MAYOR JERRY JOHNSON, WEST YELLOWSTONE, MONTANA: Well, there is not doubt that it will affect our business and it will affect the economy of West Yellowstone in the wintertime.
SAN MIGUEL: So, tell me exactly, you know how many more people will be impacted by that situation, with being in a similar situation that you would be in?
JOHNSON: Well, there's approximately 14 rental agencies in town. And you have about 1,000 motel rooms in town. You have 20 plus restaurants in town. And you have a school. You have all of our infrastructure in West Yellowstone, the police, the ambulance, all of that would be negatively impacted by any kind of decrease.
SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Barry, with that kind of economic backdrop there, with any kind of decrease in use of snowmobiles, do you feel like this is the way to go, or is there some exaggeration going on here?
BARRY: Well, the Park Service's own statistics, and I think they're backed up by EPA as well, shows that the overall expected decrease in the five-county area, in terms of the economy, would only be about 1 percent.
So, we don't believe that in fact, West Yellowstone or the other surrounding areas will have anywhere near that devastating an economic loss. We believe that if they had transitioned over to a better snow coach fleet, they could have actually offset any loss in the snowmobiling business itself and probably actually have gain some ground.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, you know, this show is all about technology here, isn't there some way that the new technologies can make for more cleaner, efficiently burning engines, could play a part here?
BARRY: Well, you hear an awful lot of happy talk about cleaner and quieter technology being part of the new Park Service proposal, but even the Park Service's own final environmental impact statement that they circulated for comment, expressly acknowledges that this new proposal will still allow for an increase in air pollution, and increase in noise pollution, an increase in wildlife harassment impacts and an increase in risk public health from the phase out proposal.
Here's an example, you may be cutting down on the amount of carbon monoxide in the park, but you're going to dramatically increase the amount of nitrogen oxide. And nitrogen is what causes the haze.
So, it's really a set of tradeoff, but we still feel it is going to result in an adverse impact on Yellowstone National Park.
SAN MIGUEL: Mr. Mayor, why would -- I mean, I've never been to Yellowstone, I am sure it is a beautiful place, I would like to go sometime, but why would I want to use a snowmobile to see it during the winter? Why not just hike it or do cross-country skiing, that kind of thing?
JOHNSON: First of all, you're not going to get to any of the feature unless you're a 20 to 30-year-old person in excellent condition, to get from West Yellowstone, from our gate, to any features on skis or snowshoes or hiking. You're going to have to use a motorized process.
And one of those processes needs to either be on a snow coach, which the technology isn't here yet for the snow coaches. But the technology is here for the snowmobiles and the cleaner quieter snowmobiles are what we're going to be using when the new plan is implemented. Any type of a complete ban of entry of a motor transportation to Yellowstone National Park has to impact the economy. And that's just common sense.
SAN MIGUEL: So tell me about the idea that Mr. Barry says that the Park Service employees have to wear gas masks, because of all the toxic fumes created by the snowmobiles. That would chase away tourists too, right?
JOHNSON: Yeah. You know, the fumes are very -- do have a negative impact on folks who are around them a lot, especially if they have a sensitive system. But the Park Service has done things like put ventilation systems in the kiosks, that was not only for the winter, but also for the summer.
The town of West Yellowstone, and the business owners in West Yellowstone, implemented the park passes being sold in town. The snowmobiles just have to roll through the gate and show the park passes. We implemented the use of ethanol, the use of synthetic fuels. And those are the things that we've done to offset the two-stroke emissions. And now within a year, you know, all that's going to be lowered even more with the use of total four-stroke or the latest technology in the snowmobiles.
Mr. Barry, we'll give you the last question here. You say the Park Service should decide regulation of snowmobiles, and not the Environmental Protection Agency. Why? I mean, it seems to be the EPA's bailiwick right there?
BARRY: Well, Congress said, decades ago, said that the national parks are to be managed to the highest protective standards possible. And what the Park Service is looking for are different factors and different concerns than the Environmental Protection Agency would take into account. So, their standards are different. Their goal is to protect these special areas for the benefit of future generations and to leave them unimpaired. And that's not the regulatory standard that EPA uses.
SAN MIGUEL: Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. Donald Barry, chief of operations, Wilderness Society, Jerry Johnson, the mayor of West Yellowstone, thank you both for joining us. We appreciate your time.
BARRY: Thank you, Renay.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
SAN MIGUEL: Well, why would you want to play a game where there are no winners or losers? Because it's there. We'll take this game for a spin, give you the lowdown when we come back.
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