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Should the U.S. Send Troops to Defeat ISIS?; Father Indicted for Murder in Hot Car Death; A Look at the Life of Joan Rivers

Aired September 05, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

COMMANDER KIRK LIPPOLD, FORMER COMMANDER OFFICER, USS COLE: I think it's a wrong strategy because the president at this point, if ISIS is the threat, that obviously General Dempsey is the chairman and secretary of defense say it is, along with our intelligence services, and even national security team members for the White House, and then we have to be able to exercise every instrument of national power in order to contain and then destroy this threat.

And to take one off the table I think is taking away options that could keep the American people safe.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Is the problem, Commander, more taking it off the table publicly or taking it off the table at all. You think that it really should be a consideration at this point, that combat troops will need to go pack into Iraq.

LIPPOLD: It has to be a consideration. Certainly, in the planning stages of the Pentagon, they have to look at range of options, trying to keep with the president's promise to the base that they not put those troops back in the ground in Iraq and possibly even Syria.

But the blunt reality for the president has to be that every instrument of national power can and must be exercised to destroy this threat. We have Americans being beheaded and Americans deserve to be -- be kept safe.

So, at this point, we need to be able to exercise those options if necessary, and the president needs to have an honest conversation with the American people and say, look, circumstances in June were when they were. Today, that threat is growing and it's bigger and the threat to our homeland because of Americans traveling over there to fight with I.S. has grown to the point that we need to consider all options as we address the threat.

BOLDUAN: But the commander -- Commander, it's not just the president. It is some hawkish, some of the biggest name hawks that we know on Capitol Hill who are also hesitant of getting to the point of saying combat troops on the ground need to be considered. John McCain has fell short of going to that place for calling for combat troops and then take into consideration public opinion.

Here -- let's just put up a couple of the most recent public opinion polls that really show that the American public does not want to get too involved militarily, that they are opposed by and large to ground troops going in to defeat ISIS. What do you do about public opinion? LIPPOLD: Well, don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm not saying we

should put those ground troops in there. That should be an option of last resort, as it should be in every conflict as we try to make sure we understand and take out whatever it is that's threatening the United States.

But it does have to be an option, and to clearly just take it off the table I think shows that we are not looking at the full range of capability that our nation can bring to bear to try and keep America safe.

So, while it will be an option of last resort, to not put it out there and say, look, were -- did we will do everything we can not to use ground troops in those countries, by the same token if we get to that point, it is because that threat has become so critical to the safety of American people that I must exercise it as a last resort.

BOLDUAN: One of the other criticisms that the president is facing he's nod laid out a strategy and that this threat has been existing for quite a long time now, the fact that many say he is overdue in laying out the strategy. Do you think we are nearing the point of last resort? Do you think we're to a place, do you see the threat as serious enough, that ground troops should be even more than on the table?

LIPPOLD: No, not yet.

BOLDUAN: OK.

LIPPOLD: I don't think we're near that close. I think just like the experience that I had during the Clinton administration in the buildup with al Qaeda before the USS Cole was attacked and then 9/11, I think you are seeing that same buildup right now with ISIS.

Clearly, we're going to need to get intelligence assets in place so we can better understand the threat as it's growing in the country. We're clearly seeing that there is a flow of money. Their ability to set up essentially a mini government throughout Syria and Iraq is growing. Their ability to gain weapons and territory, hold them and exercise controls on them is growing every day.

Now that threat is going to begin to expand. We're clearly seeing that in Great Britain raising the terrorist threat level, and it is coming here.

BOLDUAN: Right.

LIPPOLD: Therefore, all the options in how we can exercise our national instruments of power must be considered and in the end, that will include ground troops, if necessary.

BOLDUAN: Real quick then on a final point because this is what -- we also hear from many lawmakers and many folks who say that this doesn't necessarily have to be America's problem in and of itself. Why does it have to be American troops that are considered? What about Iraqi forces? What about this regional coalition? The Peshmerga forces, they have a good relationship with the U.S. military at this point. They have done a decent job, I think it's fair to say, in holding back ISIS in some places. Why does it need to be American troops?

LIPPOLD: That's an excellent point. It doesn't necessarily need to be. Clearly, the Iraqi troops so far, I think because of our withdrawal and not the ability to stay there and sustain them, folded and just disappeared into the mist and clearly ISIS took over large swaths of their country.

Peshmerga, on the other hand, as you pointed out, has been effective. We've worked with them. We have made them a very effective fighting force, giving them the tools, equipment, training and equipment they need in order to hold off is and it must continue. I think we'll need to look at it.

You've got to remember, though. Americans have been killed, and if necessary, we must act hopefully in conjunction with other nations, by ourselves, if necessary, but you have to look at it. The threat over there is going to come toward our nation.

And if you talk to any World War II veteran that fought in the south Pacific or in Europe, they will flat tell you it is far better to fight an enemy over there than wait until they come here and then address the threat.

BOLDUAN: An important conversation to be had. Thank you, Commander, for coming in and continuing the debate here on NEW DAY.

Commander Kirk Lippold, great to see you.

LIPPOLD: Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

So, the Georgia's father whose son died after being left for hours in a hot car, he is now indicted on murder charges and could face the death penalty. But did the prosecution -- did prosecutors overcharge him? That's a debate. We'll have it, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning in a case you'll be watching, the father accused of leaving his son to die in a hot car will face a trial, indicted on eight counts, including malice murder, and in an unusual twist, an unrelated charge of sexting with a minor. The key there: the sexting was done while his child was in that car.

Justin Ross Harris was arrested in June after his 22-month-old son Cooper died after being left in a hot car for seven hours. Now, Harris says he simply forgot the son was in the car.

The prosecution refutes that, accusing Harris of searching for information about hot car deaths. But there are developments on both sides of this case, unusual things that we need to get to.

Let's bring in our legal minds to break it all down, Mo Ivory, an attorney and radio host. And Danny Cevallos, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney.

Thanks to both of you for being here.

Danny, let me start with you. Various murder charges and homicide charges -- meaning death caused by a person -- not unusual. But the sexting charge is unusual and may be more tactic than substance.

What do you make of it?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Exactly that. It's very good tactic.

Back at preliminary hearing when he was only charged with felony murder, many of us howled like hell, we said this wasn't relevant. It may go to his state of mind, but the prejudicial effect far outweighed any probative value, but now that they have charged him with sexting, it comes in, it becomes relevant because it goes to the crime of sexting with a minor.

Believe me, if this sexting had gone on with someone over 18, or an adult, then his defense attorney would have a much stronger argument to potentially keep that evidence out, as -- even if it was relevant, it's so prejudicial it's unfair evidence. But as a piece of tactical brilliance, charging him with the sexting, which may be the easiest charge to prove against him, means that as long as these charges stay together, all of this evidence comes in and the jury will consider evidence of sexting but that also, that same evidence has a devastating effect on his character in the murder case.

CUOMO: Right. And remind everybody watching at home, usually you can only bring in evidence of bad character if the defendant brings in evidence of good character first. They call that opening the door. So, this is an end run around that. Very smart.

Mo, something that developed on the other side though. We watched the preliminary hearing that Danny was just talking about. This cop made one heck of a strong case about all the allegations they were drawing off the videotape, but a lot of them wind up being at least exaggerated, no?

MO IVORY, ATTORNEY & RADIO HOST: Well, I mean, obviously after the investigation has gone through, you know, its full length, they found that, no, that those things were not exaggerated. I remember there was a lot of talk about, well, you know, did he really plan this? Was it premeditated and did they find evidence? Will they be able to find evidence?

And we heard of, you know, things like he was searching on the Internet how long it takes for a child to die in a hot car. Obviously they have found more evidence and felt certain that they could prove that there was premeditation in the first count, which was the malice murder charge.

CUOMO: Right.

IVORY: And then they did the safe thing which was to include lesser charges, felony murder for first degree child cruelty and second degree in case the jury could not find -- that they could find it on the first degree.

So, I mean, it was very, very clever charging in this case, like what Danny said I agree totally. Putting those other charges together which will be prejudicial.

But I guarantee you the defense lawyer will file a motion to sever those charges, to try to separate them out, whether he'll prevail or not, we'll have to see.

CUOMO: All right. Here's a little pushback on that. When you read -- I direct you to the "Atlanta Constitution" article that came out, where they take a look at the case. Very good.

And in that article, you know, if the cops, I'll make you a cop for the second, you say that I was watching this guy walk by and I spend all this time in the car and that, you know, I was obviously distracted about what was going on in the car and I returned to the car and I took all this time.

And then you start breaking down the actual video, I'm not at the car that long, my eyes don't look into the car. I don't check out this other guy, I'm looking at the phone. You know, the time references seem exaggerated.

I think that the case may not be as compelling as you suggest, Mo.

IVORY: Well, I don't know. I don't think we've not seen everything yet. You know, we've only seen what has been presented. So, I think it would be very hard that whale we can start matching up to what we see in video to what we see in time frames.

They went to great lengths in the investigation to re-enact that entire scene, to find out exactly from the point at which he left the house to the Chick-fil-A back to Home Depot. So, I'm not sure we can make those conclusions as of yet until we see exactly what the prosecutor is going to present in the case.

So, I'm not quick to say that the jury already is going to have a very hard time finding him guilty on any of these charges. In fact, I think that what's going to happen is that it's going to be really hard for this jury to not want to find him guilty --

CUOMO: Right, right, yes.

IVORY: -- because they are -- where are you going to find a jury that isn't going to be sympathetic to a child left in a car?

CUOMO: It's true. You know, Mo, you make the exact right point. I mean, the obstacle for the defense here is to deal with the visceral aspect. There's nothing more dangerous in a trial to defend someone's rights than when there's a big emotional push on the other side. Here, Danny, you're dealing with the hardest one. The death of a child is something that also rises to the top of accountability, and when you combine the death of a child with sexual misconduct, that is a tough thing to beat. What's the best thing the defense can hope for here, Danny?

CEVALLOS: The best thing the defense can hope for is hopefully number 1, that video that we've heard about, that the detective testified about isn't as damning as it sounds so far, because we've only heard testimony about it. But make no mistake about it, the most dangerous charge is still the felony murder predicated on child neglect. Why do I say that? Well, because the burden for proving the malice murder is showing that he intended to kill.

CUOMO: Right.

CEVALLOS: But they can still get to murder showing mere neglect, a high degree of criminal negligence. So as long as they can show that he did something galactically stupid, which I think almost any juror could potentially find, and additionally that a child died, then he can be convicted of felony murder, and murder, other than the death penalty, murder is murder is murder in Georgia.

IVORY: That's right, that's right.

CEVALLOS: So make no mistake about it. The most deadly -- the most dangerous charge is still the one from the preliminary hearing. Felony murder predicated on the easiest level, criminal negligence. Georgia courts have said that second-degree neglect charge can be the predicate for felony murder.

CUOMO: And its been suggested - -

IVORY: And it also carries a life sentence.

CUOMO: Yes.

IVORY: All three of the murder charges could potentially be all life sentences and/or death for the murder malice.

CUOMO: And it has been suggested that on other side of this obvious emotional pull that a death of a child through neglect is that you're also talking about the father here, and that if anybody suffers in the loss, nobody suffers the loss like a parent, so it will be a balance of that. Like, you know, could someone kill their own kid? And then what would it be like to have to suffer losing your child at your own hand? So, it'll be a real emotional battlefield and a lot of legal tactics employed early on. Mo Ivory, Danny Cevallos, thank you very much to both of you. Have a good weekend.

So we're also going through this court case, we're going through ISIS and we are mourning the death of a legend of laughter this morning. Joan Rivers, comedy genius, trailblazer, mother. She's gone at 81 years of age. We're going to have a look back at her life, how she changed our culture, and a look ahead at the investigation into her death. But, first, let's take a look at how she will always be remembered. Made us laugh. She just made us laugh and think about ourselves in a funny way.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP) JOAN RIVERS, COMEDIAN: When we first started dating, Edgar would run around and open the car door for me and then we got engaged and, you know, we each open our own door, and now that we're married Edgar makes me run around and open his door. You feel like a fool because we don't have a car.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

RIVERS: All that counts is sex appeal. Am I right? Oh, look how quiet the room suddenly got. Oh, please. And I have no sex appeal which kills me. The only way I can ever hear heavy breathing from my husband's side of the bed is when he's having an asthma attack. Oh, you don't know.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BOLDUAN: Oh, you don't know. Joan Rivers is being remembered this morning as one of the funniest, brashest comedians of her time.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

BOLDUAN (voice-over): She passed away Thursday at the age of 81, a week after she went into cardiac arrest during really what was a routine medical procedure. Those who knew Rivers are saluting her immense comedic talent, and also her fearless approach to the craft.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BOLDUAN (on camera): Let's bring in Larry Hackett, former managing editor of "People Magazine" to discuss. You can kind of see it, Larry, in any clip that you run, but from your perspective, and you've known and followed Joan for a long time, what do you think made Joan Rivers stand out from the pack?

LARRY HACKETT, FORMER MANAGING EDITOR, "PEOPLE MAGAZINE": She was always totally honest, right? If look at the appearances from Johnny Carson, you look at the appearances from the red carpet, she was always woven in there. Yes, literally with the jokes, but you knew she was totally, totally sincere. I mean, to go on in 1965 and make jokes about your sex life and your mother - -

BOLDUAN: No kidding.

HACKETT: - - wants you to marry doctor, and all that kind of stuff, she was just unbelievably honest. Now, she could be mean and obviously she had huge ups and downs in her career with Johnny Carson and elsewhere, but there was an honesty and kind of steadiness throughout all of it that you just believed who she was. And you could take it or leave it, but you knew that was the real deal.

BOLDUAN: You knew what you were going to get.

HACKETT: She was not a character. I mean, she was a character with a capital c but she was not playing someone else.

BOLDUAN: She wasn't playing someone else..

HACKET: She was Joan all those 50 years.

BOLDUAN: And you raised something that I think is the most fascinating thing that many people might not know about, especially if you're kind of reading up on Joan Rivers and her past, is that she did not have a fairy tale career. She had some major blows that she was up against, major challenges, career-ending for maybe a normal human being, but she came back.

HACKETT: If Joan Rivers was just funny, we wouldn't be here talking about her. It is a life story woven around all those jokes. I mean, in 1965 she was found by Johnny Carson. By the '80s she's his number one go-to guest host. She then goes to Fox when Fox is coming up with a new network and Johnny basically banishes her, and she talks about it openly and its very painful. And, again, people can relate to this, they can't relate to being necessarily Johnny's guest host, but pain, rejection, having to get back up. If you saw that documentary made about her about four years ago, her workaholism is unbelievable. People can relate to all those things. So here we're talking about all that. Yes, we always are talking about the jokes - -

BOLDUAN: Right.

HACKETT: - - and there's the 50 best jokes. It's not about the jokes, it's about who she was and what her life was like. I mean, she would be making jokes about her death.

BOLDUAN: She would be making jokes about her death.

HACKETT: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely the truth. What kept her going? She's a success.

HACKETT: Fear.

BOLDUAN: Really? Do you think?

HACKETT: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Because at 81 she still had gigs all lined up, she still had shows booked.

HACKETT: She always was wondering when it was going to end. Again, in this documentary there's a sub plot, again its four years ago, about her getting a role on "Celebrity Apprentice" and you're sitting there watching it, and you're riveted because you're saying to yourself on the one hand, why is Joan Rivers worried about "Celebrity Apprentice"?

BOLDUAN: She doesn't need this. Right. Exactly.

HACKET: On the other hand, there's something incredibly compelling about this need to keep going. And that's what made her fascinating and that's why she still, over 50 years, changing platforms. I mean, this woman tweeted and was on social media.

BOLDUAN: I know.

HACKETT: I mean, Don Rickles isn't doing that.

BOLDUAN: That's for sure. How did she, do you think, hit that sweet spot of being able to push the envelope, no questions asked? She's brash, but she was endearing.

HACKETT: Because she made fun of herself. If she just made jokes about other people, that would be kind of harsh and she still was.

BOLDUAN: She'd be a funny comedian.

HACKETT: She told jokes by the pound, right? Some worked, some didn't, you liked some, you didn't like others. And you could kind of wince at some of them and that would be okay, but because she also made jokes about herself, all of that was forgiven.

BOLDUAN: What do you think - - She's one of those people you cannot get in her mind and expect what's about to come out of her mouth.

HACKETT: Right.

BOLDUAN: What do you think she would want her lasting impact to be on the comedic world, on us? What do you think she'd want her legacy to be?

HACKETT: That nothing is sacred, that you always want to push envelope. Whenever she came on television, whether you liked her on the red carpet or whatever it was, it was kind of like a loaded gun was out there, something might happen, so I think she would want that. Look, her legacy goes from everybody Kathy Griffin, Chelsea Handler. People like that owe a lot - -

BOLDUAN: She really paved the way.

HACKETT: Absolutely. 50 years ago she was making jokes about herself that now seem, I don't know if they are tame necessarily, but they seem part of the fabric. To think that this was new and that no one had done it before is really revolutionary, so that will be part of it. She will be seen as a comic revolutionary.

BOLDUAN: Could there be a Kathy Griffin, could there be a Sarah Silverman without a Joan Rivers?

HACKETT: I don't think so because, again, remember the culture was such that she was on Johnny Carson. You didn't get bigger than that. You had a woman there to look at in your pajamas at home.

BOLDUAN: And men weren't even saying those types of things.

HACKETT: Absolutely. Men didn't really make fun, I mean, Rodney Dangerfield made fun of himself but not like she did. She really opened up a vein there on television all the time.

BOLDUAN: Such a woman, too soon, even though you would say that she had a pretty good life.

HACKETT: Up till the end.

BOLDUAN: Yes, absolutely. Larry, its great to see you.

HACKETT: Good to see you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you for sharing it with us.

HACKETT: Absolutely.

BOLDUAN: Alright. Do you have a favorite memory? I mean, you can think of probably the last time you saw her on TV or in any comedy scenario that's probably your favorite memory. Do you have a favorite joke? Let us know what your thoughts are. Facebook.com/NEWDAY.

Following a lot of news. From the death of Joan Rivers to the investigation surrounding her death now as well as the threat of ISIS overseas. A lot of news to get to, let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: NATO appears to be gearing up that would take the fight to ISIS terrorists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We most reinvigorate and refocus this alliance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An American suspected of working for ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your citizenship cannot serve as a shield if you take up arms against the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Cobb grand jury returned an eight-count indictment against Justin Ross Harris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The indictment includes three charges of murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The truth is Cooper's death was a horrible accident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two investigations into the death of legendary comedian Joan Rivers now under way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Good morning. Welcome back to NEW DAY, and as we speak the world's leaders are trying to figure out how to snuff out ISIS together.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice0-over): President Obama trying to build an international coalition to, quote, "degrade and destroy" the terror group during the last day of the NATO summit. This comes as we learn just how real the ISIS threat is to Americans. The defense secretary admitting ISIS could be effective against the ultra secure U.S. embassy in Baghdad. .

BOLDUAN (voice-over): And there's new information this morning about Americans with alleged ties to ISIS. Americans with these ties, including this man right here. A U.S. citizen wanted by the FBI because they say he's the mastermind of ISIS propaganda.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOLDUAN (on camera): Let's focus on the big picture at this moment. President Obama's mission to recruit allies to join the fight against ISIS, to build this coalition. White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski is at the NATO summit in Wales. It might have not been the talk in front of the microphones, but you can be sure that was the conversation behind the scenes. Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, definitely. We don't necessarily expect to see formal decisions related directly to ISIS taken during this summit. In fact, what we expect to see today will relate mostly to Ukraine. But also, the shape of NATO going forward and, of course, included within that is the ISIS threat because so many of these member states, including the U.S., do see ISIS as a serious threat to national security. And U.S. officials say in fact in particular Europe was rattled by this ISIS sympathist attack that happened in Belgium in May on the Jewish museum. They are also extremely concerned about foreign fighters coming back to the homeland, so because of that U.S. officials say there is willingness to form a coalition and that a coalition will be formed. What that will look like exactly we don't yet know. The U.S. says some other states will contribute militarily and that could just mean in equipment. It could just mean in Iraq. We do know that a military decision on Syria won't happen during this summit. Kate.

BOLDUAN: Michelle Kosinski in Wales for us this morning. Michelle, thank you so much. Chris?

CUOMO: Alright, but the problem is it does have to happen. That's going to take cooperation and U.S. government so let's bring in Senator Susan Collins, a Republican from Maine. She sits on the select committee on intelligence and believes a comprehensive strategy for dealing with ISIS is long overdue from the Obama administration. Senator, thank you for joining us this morning. What is your primary criticism of the current strategy out of the White House?