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Another Ebola Case in Dallas; Interview with Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas; Nurses Going Public about Lack of Ebola Protocol

Aired October 15, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. JOSEPH MCCORMICK, FORMERLY WITH WHO AND CDC: Well, there are three things we can do in terms of screening. They come up at different times. One is the blood test for the virus itself. And that takes depending on the dose of virus, the initial dose, that takes some time.

And it may take -- the average incubation period is 6.3 days. So, certainly, by that time you would expect to see some virus. And to me, they should be screening for that.

Secondly, we know that a group of white cells, called lymphocytes, the ones that make antibody, are wiped out by this virus. That's one of the early signs.

And thirdly, we know a certain group of molecules called cytokines go up or down, depending on which ones you look at. All or some of those could be used to help screen and profile someone to see whether in fact they appear to be developing the disease.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Dr. Fischer, I want to bring you back into the conversation, because I think it's important to focus on the fact that you're part of the group that will be looking at the new guidelines.

Clearly, in terms of working out these guidelines, one of the important aspects of it is, is not only setting the protocol, but then making sure that it is fully -- it's fully expressed to all medical professionals around the United States. That's one of the things we're hearing from the nurses union, they're saying we are not protected, we don't have the information and we don't even have the proper equipment.

So, in terms of that, is the CDC doing enough to lead this fight?

DR. WILLIAM FISCHER, UNC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: So, I should clarify to say that I haven't been invited to review the newest protocols yet.

But what I would say is that the CDC is doing actually a remarkable job, I can tell you they are working 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And they are doing incredible work. But I think there are things we can do better.

First, I think we've got to shift the focus from blame to action. I think we can't, can't sit around and talk about who's to blame and where and what went wrong. I think we have to focus on how to fix the problem.

One of the ways we fix the problem is focus on both process and equipment, and then send it out to everybody who is going to be involved.

So, what I mean by that is saying one set of equipment to wear. One set of personal protective equipment.

PEREIRA: Right, consistency, standardized.

FISCHER: Exactly. Standardize the process, because every time you change the equipment, you have to change the process. And absolutely, I think we're going to have to train everybody, because you don't get to decide who comes to your door at your hospital door. We have to be prepared for anyone to show up.

PEREIRA: Very good point. Not trying to blame. But trying to figure out where the points of weakness are, Dr. Fischer, so we can make sure, because the fact is there are two health care workers right now who are critically ill and we don't know how they're going to do. Hopefully they'll get the right treatment.

I want to say a big thank you to Dr. Fischer for joining us, our conversation here, Dr. Van Tulleken and Dr. McCormick, we appreciate it.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: And I think what we've seen here fairly clearly is that the CDC while working very hard, is working very hard at message is yes, we're good, we understand now. And sometimes it gives you a sense of false confidence and you have to be very self- critical about a situation like this and remember how it started -- with Mr. Duncan walking into this hospital, saying he had been in West Africa, saying he didn't feel good, and getting sent home.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and there's a difference between working hard and working smart. And so, we need to figure out how the CDC can improve going forward. There's clearly been some gaps.

CUOMO: And at least now, we're at that phase and we'll be able to figure out how to do it better the next time and unfortunately it looks like there will be a next time.

We're going to have more on this. We're going to talk to Congressman Pete Sessions. Remember, he represents the district with Texas Presbyterian Hospital. We'll get his take about what they're going to do there to help the situation going forward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: We have breaking news for you out of Dallas. A second health care worker now diagnosed with Ebola. The development is ramping up concerns in a region where fears were already escalating.

So, let's bring Congressman Pete Sessions. His district includes the hospital where there were cases that started with Mr. Duncan and now two nurses. Congressman, can you hear us?

REP. PETE SESSIONS (R), TEXAS (via telephone): Yes, I can. Good morning, Chris.

CUOMO: Nobody likes hearing the news that yet a second person who is trying to save lives has their own life in jeopardy. But the more we hear from the nurses and from the surrounding people who are looking into the hospital, things aren't getting done the right way there, Congressman. What's your take?

SESSIONS: Well, my take is, Chris, we're first of all, stunning news this morning, as people wake up across America and in Dallas. We have a sad sense of reality. The reality is, that we really don't understand enough about this Ebola.

I heard the CDC gentleman who was on a few minutes ago. And I think he very carefully described some of the complexities of this Ebola virus. The facts of the case are, when this person came to the Dallas and to the hospital, this worker actually was probably unprepared to understand exactly the ramifications of this terrible thing.

And what we need to do is to isolate people -- I am a member of Congress, I have no medical degree. But was obvious to me from the beginning that based upon what I've heard about this Ebola. That we should have isolated this person and everyone early on, taken them to a different location where it can be actually treated and isolated in a way, if that is Nebraska, then do that.

But instead, what has happened over the last two weeks, we have seen this administration in the CDC downplay its dramatic effects. There are still 13,000 people with visas from Africa, West Africa, expected to come to the United States, as we speak, over the next few weeks.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SESSIONS: I don't think we have a handle on this. I don't think we understand enough about its transmission, and I think that we should take stronger action to protect the United States of America. And once again, I am as a member of Congress, I'm asking people to become understanding about this terrible, terrible thing it is now. Not just in the United States, but now a second case. We do not have the handle we need yet.

CAMEROTA: So, Congressman, it's Alisyn here in New York, you're saying we should stop all flights, we should close the border? Is that the answer what you're calling on the administration to do?

SESSIONS: What I'm calling on the administration to do is we have some 4,000 medical, as I understand it, medical personnel and/or military people who -- some could be positioned at he airport. We should allow U.S. citizens -- I am not saying we should not allow U.S. citizens, even those who may be affected. But we've got to come up with a tools to better identify this and we've not stopped anything from that perspective. Oh, sure, we have some people that will look at them when they come to

the United States. Well, that's how things get transmitted in airplanes and other areas.

CUOMO: Right.

SESSIONS: Talk about realistic ideas and things to do. Not things that appear to be disingenuous to another country.

This is a big problem. And I don't think people are up to the task.

CAMEROTA: What are those realistic ideas? Are you saying we should stop all flights from West Africa? What specifically are you calling for?

SESSIONS: Well, commercial flights, certainly. When we say these things, we have an obligation to American citizens. What I'm saying to you, Alisyn, is we don't have a handle on how to even look at this for six days.

And those tests, as you've heard, are not even available. We don't even have the protective garb down that is necessary to protect the workers. Why would we keep infecting ourselves?

CUOMO: Congressman, you're making a couple of different points, you do have the -- the problem of what's going on in Africa. And that's a debate that's going to be had about what restrictions there should be.

However, there is zero chance that nobody with Ebola winds up in this country. So now let's get to the specific problem as aside to who did what wrong and what the larger policy issue is. The hospital in your district is not getting it right. We've seen that consistently from the beginning with Mr. Duncan until now, with these two nurses.

They could be doing blood tests. They could be doing other things. There could be a different sense of urgency. What are you going to do to get this hospital more in line with where it needs to be? Because the answer can't be, to ship everyone off who gets it to a different hospital?

You have a real hospital there, it's a huge medical center, we're showing it on the screen right now. You have to be able to do better. What can you do?

SESSIONS: Well, let's suppose that everything, Chris, you said is true. You had heard the position on who I suppose is an epidemiologist, who talked about the new procedures. They're not even sure how this manifested itself and how things happen.

So, you look at physicians without borders, they're an organization that is front line in Africa today. They hose themselves completely down every single time they have any contact, with chlorine. They do things that I do not think are in the procedures that are done today.

I'm not -- I couldn't tell you one of the procedures, what I'm saying is, it appears that we have different types of circumstances. I think the CDC needs to understand they've got to have the protective garb that works well.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SESSIONS: And the physician who was on ahead of time says we don't have those in place.

So, before we go once again saying what somebody is or is not doing right or well. We need to look at what is the standard of care and the procedures. And I don't think that they're as up to date. I think we're learning things today.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, Congressman, let me just tell you what the nurses at Texas Presbyterian are saying, they're saying that Mr. Duncan was left in an open area of the emergency room for hours, when he first came in. They say that they did not have proper protective gear. And they faced constantly changing protocols. They say they were given medical tape when they were asked to protect their necks, that was porous and was able to be vulnerable. They had flimsy garments.

So, are you confident that this morning, the Texas Presbyterian Hospital where the second case is now being treated is equipped to deal with this patient? Or should he be transferred out of state?

SESSIONS: Well look, I think that's -- that's not -- first of all, that's not my call.

Here's what I would say to you: Texas Presbyterian Hospital is reeling from this. And they understand the gravity of this. At the original time that this happened, I don't think they were prepared from my perspective, from what I hear. I don't know that any hospital is until we actually come where we are today in the reality is, we're now living and dealing with this.

And so, look, I'm with you. Am I into this issue? Is the hospital in regular contact with me? Are the physicians from there in regular contact with me? Am I trying to work with them? Yes. Is the CDC (inaudible)? Yes, but we're behind the curve.

CUOMO: That's right, but look. One thing you know for sure Congressman is that you're aware of the scope of the problem as it stands right now. You know what needs to be done. The protocols and how people stay safe fighting this in places far less sophisticated than the United States are well known. So, we know what we can do. The question is, will we get it done? And that's why we're coming to you as one of the leaders who is in charge of making sure policy goes in the right direction. So Congressman Sessions, thank you for joining us. We know you have a busy day, we'll check back in with you about the situation.

SESSIONS: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Thanks.

SESSIONS: And thank you for the way you're handling this. This community is rocked and we're trying to work through this, and your effective use of having professionals on to speak about this is most important. And I encourage you, Chris, to please continue having people who can speak reason and confidence about how we can effectively fight this. And I think my side is the policy, and I'll continue with the CDC and this administration on that.

CUOMO: Alright, Congressman, understood. Thanks for being on NEW DAY.

Let's get you over to Michaela.

PEREIRA: Yes, actually, we want to take a look at weather.

We're going to turn to Chad Myers, our meteorologist. We know that we've all been enjoying fairly nice autumn so far, but you say in the northeast that might start to change?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, you're going to get a little bit wet. Michaela, hi, long time no see for you to me. Rain showers from Dubois down to Charlottesville and this is going to be the story for the rest of the day, and then rain into New York. It feels tropical in New York. There's a plume of tropical moisture. Walk outside, the relative humidity is 100 percent, and that's going to be the fuel to the storms you're going to see for the next couple of days.

Those storms are going to be with us today and tomorrow. Even D.C. and Baltimore right now under flash flood watches for all the rain that could come down. Almost four inches of rain possible today. 69 right now in New York City, probably headed up to around 75.

We're watching Gonzalo, a category 3, soon to be category 4 hurricane that may make a run at Bermuda over the weekend. And one more thing, Ana, making a run at the big island and all of the entire Hawaiian island chain. That right there, that's Friday night. Here's Saturday morning. That's a category 1, 90-mile-per-hour storm heading to Hawaii, better watch out. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Chad, thanks so much. We will watch out. Thank you for that.

Meanwhile, more coming up on those breaking developments in Dallas. We do have breaking news, another case of Ebola has been diagnosed there. The CDC now says more should have been done after it was determined that Thomas Eric Duncan had Ebola. So, we will have more on what the CDC is now doing moving forward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: More now on our breaking news. A second health care worker in Dallas diagnosed with Ebola after helping treat Thomas Eric Duncan. The news coming overnight and leading to fresh criticism of the CDC for not acting fast enough after the Liberian national first reported his symptoms.

Let's bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta from the CNN center in Atlanta. Sanjay, great to see you. We just had Congressman Pete Sessions from Texas on, and he seemed to be suggesting that any patient who shows up now with Ebola, or with symptoms, should go to a specialized treatment center, a specialized hospital like Nebraska or Emory because they're really the only ones equipped to deal with it. What are your thoughts?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, I would be disappointed if that were the case. I see that there is growing momentum towards that, but I do want to clarify a couple of things. On one side, we're talking about this in the context of preventing additional cases, secondary cases, and the second part of it is treatment.

So we know there's no specific treatment for Ebola. We know nurse Pham, for example, who is in the hospital now got a blood transfusion which is the same thing that she would have probably gotten at Emory or Nebraska, wherever she is. It's really the first part of the question, I think, Alisyn. How well can you prevent secondary infections?

My concern and my point is this, you know, patients could show up anywhere in the United States. They're not going to necessarily show up in Georgia or Nebraska. Go to the hospital, they come in contact with someone in the emergency room, then health care providers. They're going to come in contact with lots of people there regardless of whether these designated centers are set up.

So - - the designated centers aren't going to do anything to prevent people from still going to their local hospitals' emergency rooms.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GUPTA: So then the question really is is the treatment better at these places? Perhaps, but again we don't have a specific treatment for Ebola, not something that's been - - that's a gold standard. So the treatments could really be given anywhere. I get the concern, but I do wonder if that's the best course of action, to just set up a couple of places and send everyone there. I don't know that we can do that.

CAMEROTA: Well, look, as we've learned in Texas, the protocol either wasn't followed or it wasn't understood, but there was some sort of breakdown. So starting today, is there some sort of effort at hospitals across the country to have a consistent and effective protocol? Is someone teaching nurses today how to do this?

GUPTA: They say that they are, and they say that they did as well. There's two problems. One is that not all the hospitals did get the training it sounds like, because up to 75 percent, 76 percent of nurses say they didn't feel comfortable.

And two is the training itself doesn't seem to be in line with what we know has worked with groups like Doctors Without Borders, for example, in Central and West Africa. I showed this training, I did it exactly by CDC guidelines, and there was still skin showing, which we know could be a potential problem here, could be a source of contamination. So the training has to get better, obviously, but what we're training as well has to be very clear.

CAMEROTA: Yes, your demonstration was really compelling. We're going to show all of it later in the program. Sanjay, thanks so much. We will talk to you soon.

We're continuing to follow this breaking news. How will the U.S. respond to this latest Ebola diagnosis? We'll speak with one of the leaders of the U.S. response, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to NEW DAY. I'm Alisyn Camerota, joined by Chris Cuomo. Welcome to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world. We begin with breaking news this morning.

Another Texas health care worker testing positive for Ebola, raising fears of a possible outbreak. The worker was isolated with a fever last night after working with the team that cared for the late Liberian national, Thomas Eric Duncan.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

CUOMO (voice-over): Nurses at Texas Presbyterian Hospital are now going public with their own claims that this is no surprise. There is a lack of Ebola protocols within their embattled facility. They had a list of grievances that they say will lead to exposure of people trying to save lives. CNN's coverage of the crisis begins this morning with senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen live from Dallas.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

CUOMO (on camera): Elizabeth, this is not new. We've been hearing from health care workers, specifically the nurses, from the beginning. The question is not whether or not they're telling the truth, but what's being done about it.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, exactly, Chris. And certainly this second infection with Ebola among a health care worker, raises the question, is this hospital capable of safely taking care of Ebola patients, an are other hospitals in the United States capable of doing so?