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New Day

Hostage Siege in Sydney

Aired December 15, 2014 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS REASON, 7NEWS CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes, look, it's been fascinating to see that angle, just bizarre. But, yes, the major focus was one of the hostages managed to get a phone call through to one of the commercial radio stations here, a conservative talk show who took the call but didn't put it to air, being responsible, but actually inform the police obviously. But he took a list of demands from this hostage, obviously dictating straight from the gunman, and passed that information to the police.

There's been various back and forth and communication between that radio station and the gunman throughout the day. And as you say on top of that, messages sent via social media, quite extraordinary. We now have the situation where we know how many of the hostages are, we know four of them, for instance, are bank employees. We don't want to the stage of yet -- we've taken a decision not to name anybody.

But it's -- yes, look, it's quite an official, a siege like this -- I have seen many sieges my time, but a siege in era of social media where the hostages are allowed to tweet and update Facebook status is quite bizarre.

CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: It is.

Chris Reason, we thank you very much for your information and for your very unique vantage point right across from where this is happening. We appreciate you sharing it with us.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: On your screen, we will have live pictures of what's going on right now in Sydney, it is nighttime there. The standoff has been going on for about 12 hours. The lights are off inside the cafe. We believe the gunman turned them off.

So, we're going to keep updating the situation as we can. We're going to take a break right now. And we're going to come back and start talking about why Sydney?

There are reasons for this. There has been a changing environment there. The state has been acting in that regard. We will tell you why, on the heels of Ottawa, is there a relationship between these types of attacks in different places?

We will discuss all this with you and give you the latest as soon as we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: All right. You are watching NEW DAY. We want to welcome our viewers in the U.S. and around the world.

We have breaking news right now: an armed gunman is holding people hostage inside a chocolate shop in Sydney, Australia. The crisis is extending into its 12th hour. Captives have been forced to hold up what we believe is a Shahada, an Arabic phrase and expression of faith about there being one god and that Mohammed is his messenger.

We don't know how many hostages are inside. We do know as you see on your screen right now that five people managed to escape overnight. We say escape, and not released, because the gunman seemed very agitated after they managed to get out through a door there. And he started moving, we are told from a local reporter, the hostages into a separate area. So, obviously, he could keep guard.

One very interesting thing that's going on here, the gunman has not taken phones from the hostages. He is encouraging them to use the phones, especially social media, he has been making calls to media. He's been having to make calls to media, to get out his demands, which are right now a flag of ISIS and a phone call with the Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

He's also been very critical of the media and the disposition of Australia towards ISIS.

So, let's get right now to Anna Coren. We have her on the ground in Sydney.

Now, Anna, start where what we know about this, but also give us some context how Sydney, Australia, of all places, is not somewhere we would expect something like this.

ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, interestingly enough, Chris, it wasn't so long ago that there were direct threats made against Martin Place. Police dismissing those threats coming from this particular armed gunman. But, certainly, you know, Sydney is a tourist destination. It's where the cafe is. It's a financial hub, it's a business hub.

So, I mean, this gunman who has been taken a site that is really a key position in the heart of the city, but what we know is this gunman, he has a number of hostages inside this Lindt Cafe, earlier, five managed to flee. We initially didn't know if they had been released, obviously, police negotiators are in touch, in contact with this armed gunman.

But as we are hearing from Chris Reason, the 7Network reporter who witnessed this, he said that the gunman seemed rather agitated and yelled at the remaining hostages. We've heard from the prime minister, we've heard from the police commissioner, both calling for vigilance amongst the public, asking them to report if there are any suspicious packages, any suspicious backpacks, parcels. Certainly the Sydney Opera House was evacuated when a suspicious parcel was found, there was a bomb scare, and there were concerns that there were other bombs placed around the city. That did not eventuate, it was false.

However, you know, police treating the situation extremely seriously. You know, this siege now coming into its 13th hour. I mean, we are talking about the center of Sydney. This isn't some little country town. This is a major metropolis.

And as we are hearing from Chris Reason a little bit earlier, we are talking about the headquarters of the major banks, the Reserve Bank of Australia, the U.S. consulate. You know, this is the heart of the city and it to be shut down and possibly into tomorrow, that was certainly inferred during the press conference from the New South Wales police commissioner.

He said this area will be, you know, an exclusion zone for people to go about their business coming into Tuesday as if it were a normal day, perhaps inferring that this may very well drag on.

CAMEROTA: And, Anna, of course, you are not just a journalist based in Australia. You are Australian. Can you tell us what the reaction to the people of Sydney has been in the past 12 hours?

COREN: For sure, I mean, I have reported in Sydney for much of my career, and to be back here now reporting on this, it is extremely alarming, because this does not happen in Australia. Certainly, the experience with the terrorism with the Bali bombings back in 2002, which claimed the lives of 88 Australians. I mean, there were Americans involved in that terrorist attack as well.

But for it to be happening on home soil is frightening, and clearly, this man is a sympathizer with ISIS. He believes in the course, so much so, he has asked for the ISIS flag. Obviously, not too much planning on his behalf, but he specifically chose that location, opposite a TV station. He wanted the world watching. I mean, his demands, let's face it. They're pretty bizarre, an ISIS flag and a phone conversation with the Australian prime minister.

We don't know if he is acting alone, whether he is a member of ISIS. I think it's very interesting that we haven't heard from ISIS itself, they are not like claiming him as one of their own. But certainly very distressing, very disturbing not just for myself but people here, you know, Sydneysiders, people all across Australia to know that there is somebody here who wants to cause harm to fellow Australians.

CUOMO: We have heard, not from ISIS, but we have heard from about 40 Muslim groups within Australia condemning the actions of this man, saying it does not represent the faith. So, we do know that much now.

However, still a very developing situation. Anna, you will be on the ground for us there. We'll get back to you soon.

Right now, we're going to take a break and we're going to be speaking with a top analyst security analyst to find out what is being done right now to bring this situation in Sydney to a peaceful end. They are in contact with this man. There are negotiations. We will tell you about them when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Welcome back to CNN's breaking news coverage of the hostage crisis that is unfolding in Sydney, Australia, at this hour. This is the 12th hour, and police are surrounding a Lindt chocolate cafe where an unidentified gunman is holed up inside with an unknown number of captives. He is reportedly demanding an ISIS flag in exchange for one of the hostages. And he also wants to speak directly to the Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

This is an act of terror, why pick a peaceful place like Sydney.

CUOMO: All right. We have a panel of experts here who understand the situation. We have Bobby Ghosh, CNN global affairs analyst, the managing editor of "Quartz". We have Tom Fuentes, CNN law enforcement analyst and a former FBI assistant director, and Juliette Kayyem, CNN national security analyst.

Thank you for joining us quickly this morning.

Bobby Ghosh, let's get some context here about Australia.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes.

CUOMO: A peace loving nation. Obviously, the Muslim population there, relatively small, but there have been changes in recent months, but in terms of the threat and the response from Australia. What do we know?

GHOSH: Well, as you point out, less than 3 percent of the population is Muslim. There have not been any significant acts of terror on Australian soil. But Australia has been a member of the global coalition against terrorism since 9/11, quite enthusiastic member of that coalition, Australian troops participated in Afghanistan, in Iraq, where I saw them operation.

So, in that sense, Australia has come within the sort of firing line -- over Islamic terrorists everywhere.

More than, anywhere between 100 and 200 Australians have left Australia and joined ISIS in Iraq and in Syria over the past couple of years. There's clearly been some amount of sympathy among very, very small group of Australians in Australia.

A couple of months -- well, four weeks, five weeks ago, the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, issued a call to all supporters, saying, go ahead and pursue individual acts of, I suppose they wouldn't consider it terror, but attack whenever you can. So, he was encouraging lone wolves.

You put all those things together and the fact that this guy is asking for an ISIS flag, it's not hard to draw the conclusion that this is somebody who is, (a), sympathetic with ISIS, and, (b), perhaps is responding to al-Baghdadi's call to action.

CAMEROTA: So, Tom Fuentes, where do -- how does law enforcement begin to negotiate with a person like this?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, it's going to be very difficult. I'm sorry, that's going to be very difficult because they don't know exactly what le wants here. So far, he wants the flag and publicity. They don't know if he's going to intend to kill people, as the original plot.

I'd like to add to what Bobby said, the Australians have faced the threat for many, many years. Two bombings in Bali that were at night clubs frequented by Australians, killed hundreds of Australian tourists. They had a big plot and arrested a number of al Qaeda members in 2005.

As recently as this past September, they had over 800 officers participate in raids in Sydney and Brisbon because they had uncovered a plot to take innocent civilians right here in Martin Place and behead them. So, they had these huge raids, huge police aggressive actions against that, followed by a large number of protests in the Muslim community against police for being too aggressive and, you know, pursuing their tactics.

So, this has been an ongoing and growing battle between the Australians and either ISIS directly or people that want to be ISIS members.

CUOMO: Right.

Hey, Juliette, this could just be a deranged man saying, look at me, look at me. But there is one aspect that seems unique to ISIS, which is he hasn't taken their phones, he's encouraged them to use them, especially social media. Social media is popular for everybody, specifically this group.

What do you make of it?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think we are sort of in a new wave of the lone wolf soft target attacks. So, like in the 1970s and 1980s, most terrorist organizations lived by the philosophy, you want a lot of people watching, but not a lot of people dead. That's because they had political aim. So, think of Cubans, activists or think of the PLO and the Israeli conflict.

Then, of course, al Qaeda changed everything. You just -- you know, they wanted spectacular attacks with a lot of people dead because sympathy didn't really matter, it was attacks, itself, that matter, killing lots of Americans.

This wave now is a sort of combination, right? It is a lot of people watching. And we don't know what they want, right? So, using the phones and social media to make this attack seem bigger than it is.

So, let's take a step back. This is what we can tell, one hostage- taker, 20 people, 30 people, but because everyone is watching, it has the magnitude of a major terrorist incident. And so, this is the new wave, and clearly, ISIS or whoever, whether he's a sympathizer or he's a deranged guy, it doesn't matter at this stage, all that matters is getting the hostages out safely. Time is on law enforcement side, especially if it's just one guy in there.

So, this is sort of the unfolding of the new wave, which is the bar to entry is very low for these terrorist organizations and anyone can have global impact by very sort of low grade terrorist attacks.

CAMEROTA: All right. Juliette Kayyem, Tom Fuentes, Bobby Ghosh, thanks so much for your expertise.

And there is a gunman holding hostages inside a Sidney, Australia cafe, he is reportedly demanding an ISIS flag in exchange for one of the prisoners. Is this a work of terrorists? We are tracking every new development for you.

CUOMO: Plus, we're gong to have more on our breaking news coverage, I hear as well as what else is going on for you around the world. We'll give you the latest developments as soon as we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: The latest now on the hostage crisis unfolding in Sydney, Australia, the cafe there, a man is holding an unknown number of people, reportedly demanding an ISIS flag and a one- on-one conversation with the prime minister of Australia. I want to take a closer look at how the hostage taker is using the media to get his message out, whatever that message might.

Joining us, Brian Stelter, CNN's senior media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES". Also here, Larry Hackett, former managing editor of "People" magazine.

It's interesting to hear Juliette Kayyem a moment ago saying this is a new era in hostage-taking, if you will.

Larry, I'm curious if you have soon this ting before and what you make of the development the hostage-taker has not taken hostages' cell phones.

LARRY HACKETT, FORMER MANAGING EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Right.

PEREIRA: Had them to reach to radio personalities to get this so- called message out. What are your thoughts?

HACKETT: Well, I wonder two things. One is get the message out, the other is to build fear and terror. There is nothing like hearing from a hostage.

PEREIRA: And the fear in their own voice. Right.

HACKETT: Absolutely, and there is nothing like that. We all cover this, whether it's a movie or real life, you see that. That's terrifying, and you wonder whether or not he is using this in a very crafty way, ratcheting the attention up there in the street.

PEREIRA: And even the fact that they're right across the street from the TV station, and the images are so strong of the innocent people with their hand pressed against the window. The location of this is really interesting, too, Brian.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: It is. PEREIRA: We know that that's a central core, the reserve bank is nearby. Parliament is not too far away. And it is right across from a TV station.

STELTER: It's akin to Times Square here, with the "Good Morning America" studio is, or Rockefeller where "The Today Show" is, or Columbus Circle where we are, the main heart of downtown Sydney. And that's what differentiates it from a -- you know, terrorism from a normal crime. Terrorism is a crime to an audience, crime to instill fear in an audience. That would make sense given this location.

One observer in Sydney last night said, this is something that was concocted for all of Australia, and obviously, now, for the rest of the country as well.

PEREIRA: It provides a moral dilemma for media, because we saw how a radio journalist, a broadcaster was brought into this. A hostage got on the phone with him. He smartly chose, Larry, not to air that conversation live on the air.

HACKETT: Right, this goes back -- I mean, this happened in the '60s and '70s, media figures were brought in, somehow the media, whether it was attic or places like that, nothing we know about that. But media mediates. So, the idea of social network taking one layer inside, where individuals are now communicating, makes it a different kind of a situation.

PEREIRA: And you add social media, which is -- its bizarre and disturbing and real time.

STELTER: We just heard in the last segment, it's about making the scene bigger than it is, as our world evolves and as our world is interconnected, our reactions to these crimes have to revolve as well, our responses.

HACKETT: You also wonder -- sorry, Brian -- what's going to happen as this goes on. I mean, this situation as we know from the past, they go up, and they go down, the kidnapper may be in a good mood, a bad mood, feel scared and feel confident, make shape his attitude about this. If there is 50 people all tweeting, I mean, he's not going to be in control of that, he may not like that, does he know what they're doing? I mean, it's all very, very --

PEREIRA: It makes one wonder how well thought out it is. We talked to a security expert a second ago about the fact that these lone wolf attacks, you don't know how close they are to the organization they are and thus, would have any training in terms of how to manage a situation like this.

But social media takes all sort of control away from it, in a way which is a challenge for law enforcement.

STELTER: It is. We have seen, for example, it's nighttime and Sydney is reporting, journalists have said, several organizations figured out the name of the hostage taker and not reporting that name. I think we haven't seen that name spread online either, and people have been careful about that.

But I think that radio host did the best thing, to not put the hostage on air. We saw at the Discovery Channel a few years ago, NBC News called the front desk, got the hostage-taker on the phone, did not report that call until after the situation is resolved. That's best practice for media here.

PEREIRA: Quick final thoughts, Larry.

HACKETT: Listen, part of the considerations, too, here, if we know who is tweeting out, we can tweet in. Law enforcement finds out who's inside, they can communicate with them, they're going to send false message, they're going to ask for intelligence, all very interesting, all very, very new.

PEREIRA: A very difficult situation to be sure. Thank you to both of you.

We're going to continue to follow every development in the ongoing Sydney hostage situation. Let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hostage, terror in Sydney.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are locked down. We can't go out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An armed man holding an unknown number of hostages.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just absolutely traumatic. This man walked in, with a shotgun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two demands, an ISIL flag and a phone call.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gunman, he was using one of the employees as a human shield.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what Americans from that perspectives here have been dealing with since September 11th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once night falls, the dynamic of this operation will change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are living very much with the threat of terrorists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are being tested today in Sydney.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. We do have breaking news. It's 7:00 in the East, 11:00 p.m. in Sydney, Australia.

We want to welcome our viewers in United States and around the world to our coverage on NEW DAY. This is our continuing coverage of an armed gunman is holding somewhere between 10 and 20 people, we believe, hostage in this cafe. Five people have been able to break free and escape.

CUOMO: And we believe they escaped because the gunman was said to be very agitated. He moved his remaining hostages into a specific area.