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New Day

Hostage Crisis in Sydney; Local Muslim Groups Condemn Action as Statement of Muslim Faith; The Role of Social Media

Aired December 15, 2014 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Let's get straight to Anna Corne. She is live in Sydney. Anna?

ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris, it's just gone 11:30 p.m. here, and the CBD of Sydney is very much in lockdown. We are talking several blocks around this cafe. This is as far as the police will allow us.

Earlier in the day we were much closer to Lindt Cafe. We had a visual of the cafe, however, due to security reasons, concerns the gunman would start firing explosives, bombs, we were moved away, but there are hundreds of police within the vicinity of the bomb squad is also here.

We have also seen sniper gunmen taking positions. Clearly, they want this resolved peacefully. We have heard from authorities saying as much, they are prepared to wait this out, for this to take as long as necessary, as long as this is resolved peacefully.

However, we are now entering the 13th hour of the siege and we are not talking about a quiet area. This is the CBD of Sydney. Next door very close to the Lindt Cafe is the U.S. Consulate, the headquarters of the major banks, the Reserve Bank of Australia is based there as well as this major TV network, which is across the road.

So you have to presume that this gunman armed, according to police, with a shotgun, also carrying a backpack. We don't know what is inside that backpack. He has chosen this location to get maximum coverage.

We have yet to confirm how many hostages he has. Police refusing to give us a number, however, as we know, over the course of the afternoon, at least five hostages have managed to break free of the Lindt Cafe.

Initially, we thought, perhaps, this was the result of negotiations. Police negotiations, they were able to make contact with the gunmen this afternoon. However, according to local reporters, once these hostages fled, he was irate, yelling, so clearly he was upset.

However, he has been allowing the hostages to use their mobile phones. They have local TV networks, which are his demands, the phone conversation with the Tony Abbott as well as well as calling for an ISIS flag to be delivered. He did hang a flag there. That is apparently still at the Lindt Cafe. He had the hostages up against the glass, later they unfurled the black flack with Arabic writing with Islamic saying. But certainly, he is now making those demands.

There was also talk of there being bombs, two bombs that he planted inside the cafe that is yet to be verified by the police. But there were certainly bomb squares at the Sydney Opera House, if you follow this road for a mile, will you hit the Sydney Opera House.

That area was evacuated. It was completely shut down. It turned out to be a false alarm, certainly, Sydney very much on high alert.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Anna, I also want to read to you the latest tweet that came out from the journalist at Channel 7 who we spoke to earlier live on the program. He is right across the street in the TV station. He can see into the cafe.

He just tweeted, very little movement at the Lindt Cafe. One person we believe to be the gunman, walking toward back office. He is carrying an iPad. So to your point, they are trying to get messages out through all of this sort of modern tech following and social media

Anna, we should also say that you spent much of the summer reporting in Iraq on ISIS. Now are you back home in Australia. Does this seem to you as though this person is affiliated with ISIS or is he just a wannabe?

COREN: Well, Alisyn, it's hard to tell. Obviously, him wanting the ISIS flag would definitely indicate he is some sort of sympathizer what is a large Muslim community here in Australia, who have come out and voiced their support for the police and how they find water happening about a block from where we are standing abhorrent.

There is a small minority of Muslims who are sympathizers to the ISIS cause. There are more than 100 Australian citizens who go on to fight in Iraq and Syria with ISIS. Obviously, there was a call for more attacks.

It wasn't just in the United States and throughout Europe, but also here in Australia. The reason being is that Australia is very much side-by-side with America and the other allies if fighting is in Iraq and Syria, taking part in that aggressive air campaign.

So certainly, Australia is a target. That is why there are concerns that perhaps this is related.

CUOMO: Also, I think it's because the gunman seems to be making that clear, that that's how he wants this to be perceived, Anna, we have video that's coming in of one of the hostages. We will not show you, obviously, you want to walk that line between how much propaganda exposure you give to a situation like this.

But we care about the safety of these individuals and the threat that he presents, the hostage is making a list of demands the same as we have known, which is he wants the flag, he wants to talk to the prime minister.

He will exchange a hostage if he gets the flag, but he also wants it to be known this is about the Islamic State and that that's what he wants the media to understand. He is continuing his threats about having bombs.

He now says that there are three of them. He is giving specific places where they are. If his demands aren't met, obviously that's what the bombs are for, how serious dunk they are taken by what is happening around you in.

COREN: Yes, police are taking them extremely seriously. There is a bomb squad on location as we speak. They have been there since the get-go. And, obviously, there were those calls for the public to remain extremely vigilant and to report any suspect parcels or backpacks.

That is what sparked off what happened at the Sydney Opera House earlier today, but, yet, as I say, the prime minister making those calls as well as police authorities telling Australians to remain vigilant.

The last time that Australians experienced terrorism with the Bali bombings in 2002, in which 88 Australians were killed, on TV, our troops being committed toward overseas, we have never experienced this here on home soil.

CAMEROTA: All right, Anna Coren, thank you so much for the reporting. Of course, we will check back in with your throughout the program. We should point out that he may say he is connected to Islamic State. But as Bobby Ghosh told us the ISIS has notice put anything out claiming he is a part of that.

CUOMO: Local Muslim groups have condemned this action as a statement- of-Muslim faith. It is fight time there in Sydney, Australia. We will constantly have it on your screen the lights are off inside. It's hard to know what's going on. Stay with us. We will be giving information to you.

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CAMEROTA: We have continuing coverage of the siege in Sydney for our American audiences and viewers around the world. Joining us now is Fran Townsend. She is a CNN analyst and former Bush security and counterterrorism adviser and Tom Fuentes, former FBI assistant director and CNN law enforcement analyst. Great to have you both with us.

They have put out three new videos from the hostages inside the Lindt Cafe. We are not airing it. We don't want to be a conduit for what this gunman wants.

They're again outlining his requests. He wants an ISIS flag and wants to speak to the prime minister. What are your impressions when you watch this video? FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Look, I think, one we ought to be clear that the flag that he is currently showing, it's said it's The Shahada. It's one of the five basic pillars of Islam, there is no god but god and Mohammad is his prophet.

So that's not in and of itself a terrorist flag. He is asking for He is clearly an extremist. His views are aligned with the Islamic states. He is giving street areas, not spec addresses. He clearly wants the concerns if his demand are not met to speak to the prime minister, he will begin to hurt hostages.

CAMEROTA: Tom, is it your impression that he is affiliated with ISIS? He doesn't seem to have that many resources for someone affiliated with a terrorist group that could bank roll him?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, I don't think we know that yet, Alisyn. It appears he is not that well-funded or trained at this point. But we don't know that and especially the issue of the explosives. Has he had train something are there bombs or is that an idle threat? We don't know that yet either.

TOWNSEND: The time is right, I would say, one, he doesn't need a lot of resources, B, he's in there alone, you don't know if he's acting alone the Australian security intelligence service is very, very capable.

They have long experience going back to the time of the Bali bombing. They understand the Islamic extremist groups. There have been ongoing Islamic extremist investigations. We den know if this is related.

CAMEROTA: If you remember, Tom, ISIS hasn't put out any statement. He is claiming an affiliation. Is this a deranged person who is a wannabe and is trying to get attention?

FUENTES: Well, I wouldn't say necessarily just derange and wanna-be, I mean, apparently a wanna-be, but don't forget three months ago in Sydney and Brisbane, more than 800 police officers conducted raids when they received information that ISIS had incurred a plot in Australia.

And that plot was to go to Martin Place, grab an innocent citizen off the sidewalk and behead him and maybe more than one and show that on video. That's a departure from other threats and other countries like Canada and the U.S. where they said, get somebody in uniform, police officer, a soldier, do it.

This was specifically in Australia to be a private citizen. Then as a result of the aggressive action there were demonstrations in the Muslim community criticizing the police for their aggressive actions if conducting these raids.

So this has been a source of friction, if you will, in that community since September for sure and then going back, as Fran mentioned, the first Bali bombing was in 2002 and the Australian Federal Police and FBI have had a permanent presence in Indonesia ever since the first Bali bombing. CAMEROTA: Fran, what is going on inside the White House and the Department of Homeland Security as this hour?

TOWNSEND: We know, Alisyn, that the president has been briefed. Lisa Monico, by successor in the White House is sort of coordinating the response. I think we got to remind folks up until today, frankly the American government has told the United States citizens there is no imminent threat here.

Unfortunately, I suspect that's what the Australians were saying before this event began. It underscores, these are difficult to pediatric, if it's a lone wolf or a small group even those under investigation, their ability to go live and act is almost unstoppable by the government. We have to understand.

These guys look to instill fear. They see what is going on, the disruption and fear one guy at the Lindt Cafe can cause. In that sense, right, no matter how this turns out, even if we get everybody back, they had a successful propaganda event if nothing else.

CAMEROTA: So chilling. Fran Townsend, Tom Fuentes, thank you so much for your expertise. Great to have you with us. Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: All right, and of course, we will continue our breaking news coverage of this hostage situation in Sydney, Australia. Right now, it's nighttime, ten and 20 captives, we believe, some have escaped. Is it the work of Islamic extremists? We will take a closer look ahead.

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CUOMO: Welcome back to NEW DAY. We have the latest for you now on the unfolding in Sydney, Australia, an unidentified gunman is holed up within unknown captors. We are hearing 10 to 20. He is making demands in individuals.

He is encouraging the hostages to use media, social media, especially to get them out. What are they? So far he wants an ISIS flag and he says he will release a hostage if he gets one. He also wants to speak to the Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

He is believed to have a shotgun. He says he has bombs and is working with others. Yes, let's bring in Philip Mudd. He is a CNN counterterrorism analyst and a former deputy director of the Counterterrorism Center at the CIA.

We have Bobby Goesh. I will start with you, forget about whether this guy is a member of ISIS or he is deranged, whatever he is, he has situated himself where he is putting others at risk. He is at least a sympathizer with seems to be the new lone wolf. We know ISIS is calling for it around the world. How do you deal with this?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: You've got to go into the assumption even though it may look like the lone wolf there's other intelligence here. As a professional, in this situation you've got to let the police and law enforcement deal with the situation on the ground.

Someone like me is separating saying if we have identification of who he is, are there other people we can identify who might have been affiliated for example, on his Facebook page if he's got one. And if we can find out if he's radicalized by someone else. You can't assume he's a lone wolf right off the bat.

CUOMO: So social media is used by good guys and bad guys. The problem is you're fighting an idea. A deranged person can cling to. Someone they think is sympathetic can cling to. So it's how you deal with that idea. We have news of something else going on in Australia on social media as a reaction to this. Tell us about it.

BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You're right, fighting and idea is a difficult thing. Governments will get involve. Counter terrorism groups. Often times the best way to fight an idea is with ordinary people.

Earlier today, an Australian woman noticed while she was on public transport a Muslim woman removing her religious garb because she was a little afraid of how Muslims would be perceived in this moment.

This Australian woman chased after that Muslim man and said if you're comfortable with your religious garb put it back on. If you're worried how people will respond, I'll ride with you.

CUOMO: So the #illridewithyou --

GHOSH: It's going viral across Twitter. Australians are stepping up saying if you're Muslim, if you want to wear religious clothing and you're worried about going on public transport, I'll ride with you.

CUOMO: Adding an idea of inclusion to what is certainly a theory of exclusion, which we're dealing with terrorism.

GHOSH: It's a much more powerful way of reaching out than governments making statements or police departments. It rejects the idea that Muslims cannot live in Australia or that Muslims should feel oppressed in Australia.

Australians are stepping up saying I respect your religious right and to wear whatever you feel comfortable with wearing. I'll ride with you if you feel worried. That's so powerful.

CUOMO: And Muslim groups have come out and condemned this too, also important. Phillip, the problem is this is scary because you can't control this. You can tell me you track down threads and watch people who could be at risk. This guy whether known or not in the Muslim community could be anybody. That's the same thing we're dealing with here in the U.S., isn't it?

MUDD: Sure, 12 to 13 years ago when I was fighting the al Qaeda group out of Pakistan that was a more strategic threat than you see Australia. It's also a group that gives a core organization to use intelligence tools against. Things like human sources, technical intercepts of e-mail and phone. The problem in this situation you don't have an individual capable obviously of organizing a plot to take down four aircraft.

If you want to tell me as an Intel guy you can find people like this. We see them in Ottawa, UK, France, U.S., now in Australia. You can't find all these people. It's impossible.

CUOMO: So what do you do?

MUDD: Well, one of the things you've got to do is look at how this person was inspired for example, we've seen in Australia in that attempted beheading case a few months ago the inspiration came from an individual out with is in Syria.

One of the things you've got to do is look at how people are communicating from places like United States and Australia with inspirational people in Iraq and Syria.

One of the things they are doing in Australia, they doesn't hatter if people in the Middle East are providing operational training. I want to know who's talking about acts of violence even if they're not organizing from Syria. If they're talking about them, I look at them.

CUOMO: Last point, one of the things they are doing in Australia, they've expanded police powers and also thinking about how to control media reporting around terrorism.

Right now, you have what is ethical quandary. He's putting out videos with hostages. I won't show them, but we are talking about what he is doing there. We are covering it. Do you think that's part of the problem or is that reality of media?

MUDD: I think that's the reality. A few years ago we had a major attack, 150, 170 dead in India. That was an attack all over social media for days. These guys had smart phones and were televising what they were doing getting tremendous coverage. We've matured in years. These folks wanted the same thing.

They don't just want hostages. They want to say we are a state, a people who require your attention. CNN and others have matured saying we're not going to give you that coverage. I think it's great.

CUOMO: But it's going to be out there and the question is how it's covered and how messages happen on regular media and social media. Philip Mudd, thank you very much. Bobby Ghosh, appreciate the perspective -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chris, we continue to track this hostage standoff in Sydney, Australia. We're live on the ground for you when we come back.

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