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New Day

NYC Mayor Calls for Calm in Wake of Two NYPD Deaths; No Charges for Officer in Milwaukee; Interview with Attorney for Dontre Hamilton's Family; The Depravity Standard

Aired December 23, 2014 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Assassination.

PEI XIA CHEN, OFFICER LIU'S WIDOW: This is a difficult time for both of our families.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR, NEW YORK CITY: Until these funerals are past, let's focus just on these families.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The experience for man, in terms of some cops not liking him, is nothing new.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired! Shots fired! Officer involved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A former police officer cleared after shooting and killing a mentally ill man.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No mother should bury their child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kim Jong-Un's Godlike generosity and love of his people. Prime time programming on North Korea's only television station.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you have ever made fun of Kim Jong-Un?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ALYSIN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to NEW DAY. I'm Alisyn Camerota with Chris Cuomo. New York City's embattled mayor pleading for a pause to the protests and the politics following the assassination of two police officers. Bill De Blasio calling for calm out of respect, he says, for the slain officers.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The widow of Officer Wenjian Liu spoke tearfully of her late husband's commitment to service and family. They married just three months ago. A heart backing or breaking back drop for an NYPD announcement that plans to bolster security in Times Square for New Year's Eve just after receiving more than a dozen threat.

Let's go live to Brooklyn, New York obviously, and bring in CNN's Alexandra Field. Alexandra. ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chris, we're hearing a change of tone from the mayor of New York City, Bill de Blasio. He has been criticized or being accused supportive of the demonstrators, now he's taking a different course asking demonstrators to stay home not protest until this funerals are over. Officer Ramos' family plans to lay him to rest on Saturday. Officer Liu's family says they'll wait of more family members to arrive from China before making any further plans, but the city will honor both of the fallen officers later today with a moment of silence at city hall.

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FIELD (voice-over): This morning police on heightened alert as Attorney General Eric Holter condemns the killings of NYPD officers, Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu calling it in an assassination. Mayor Bill de Blasio tried to ease tensions. Critics charged the mayor has not shown support for police, saying his sympathy for what they call anti-police demonstrations had helped pave the way for the deaths of the officers.

On Monday, de Blasio meeting with the families of the slain officers, the mayor calling for unity and respect by halting protest until after the funerals.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR, NEW YORK CITY: In this tragedy, maybe we find someway of moving forward. That would be an appropriate way to honor these fallen officers and their families that are in pain right now.

FIELD: Also, developing new surveillance video captures shooter Ismaaiyl Brinsley about three hours before his deadly rampage at the mall in Brooklyn, carrying a Styrofoam box, police believed with a gun inside. Officials now asking for the public's help in tracking his whereabout leading up to the attack.

Authorities believed, based on social media post, that Brinsley wanted to revenge against police for the deaths of Michael Brown and Eric Garner. Hi estrange family speaking out for the first time describe him as troubled man who's life spiraled out of control.

JALAA'A BRINSLEY, SISTER OF ISMAAIYL BRINSLEY: This was a troubled -- emotionally troubled kid. He needed help, he didn't get it.

FIELD: Monday night, vigils lighting the city. The Liu family expressing gratitude to the police department and the public for their support.

PEI XIA CHEN, WIDOW OF OFFICER LIU: This is a difficult time for both for our families but we will stand together and get through this together.

(END VIDEDOTAPE)

FIELD (on camera): Despite calls for the mayor and also from the city's Borough presidents to hold off on this protest, there are social media reports of a gathering later tonight here in New York City. Alisyn. CAMEROTA: All right. Alexandra Field, thanks so much for that background.

Now to Milwaukee where a white police officer will not be charged for gunning down and mentally ill black man. In just released dash cam video, officers raced to the scene. As you hear Officer Christopher Manney radio in, he's panicked as he describes the confrontation that lead to him shooting Dontre Hamilton more than a dozen times.

Manney has been fired, despite the fact of the D.A. ruled, he was justified in his actions in terms of self-defense. This has the feds open an investigation into this case.

George Howell joins us live from Milwaukee with all the latest, what do we know George?

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, good morning. It is important to talk about timing. This decision basically playing out days after those two officers lost their lives in New York City. Protesters here are talking about it. They tell me that what happened in the New York is a tragedy, and they're saying it's the same tragedy here -- in this case, they say it shouldn't be condoned and the mother of the victim tells me she's not surprised by this decision.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL (voice-over): Outraged on the streets of Milwaukee.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice.

HOWELL: After the D.A. announced the former city police officer, Christopher Manney, would not face charges in the shooting death of a mentally ill suspect, Dontre Hamilton back in April.

JOHN CHRISHOLM, MILWAUKEE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: His used a force was privileged and was justified.

HOWELL: Manney says Hamilton resisted a pat-down. The two exchange punches before, according to Manney, Hamilton started hitting him with his own baton.

CHRISTOPHER MANNEY, FORMER CITY POLICE OFFICER: I don't even know if I was hit. It was close combat, I need an officer to help me here.

HOWELL: This newly released audio captures Manney calling in for help.

MANNEY: Guys started beating me, he started beating me, he grabbed my baton. He was going to hit me in the head with my own baton. Shots fired.

HOWELL: The officer shot Hamilton 14 times

MANNEY: Shots fired, shots fired, officer involved. HOWELL: Manney has sent been fired for not following proper protocol but now faces no charges.

EDWARD FLYNN, MILWAUKEE POLICE CHIEF: I think he exercised extraordinarily bad judgment that day that basically put him in a position where he would had no alternative but to use deadly force.

HOWELL: Manney is the same officer seen in this bizarre cellphone video back in 2012, Manney seen here throwing punches at a local activist dressed as a clown. Police say the clown was darting in and out of traffic going up the cars with a squirt gun and that he resisted arrest.

In an exclusive interview with CNN, the victim's mother, Maria Hamilton tells me she thinks he's an overzealous cop who got away with murder.

MARIA HAMILTON, MOTHER OF VICTIM DONTRE HAMILTON: No mother should bury their child to something this tragic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL (on camera): It is important to point out in that video where you see the officer wrestling with the clown on the street, that clown is a known activist here in Milwaukee but certainly a bizarre situation that was caught on tape. And many of this community question the officer's judgment when it comes to dealing with suspects and the family questions the decision by this district attorney. Chris.

CUOMO: All right, George. The tension is if you resist arrest with an officer, there's going to be force. The question is what does the officer do to make that a last option. And there's no question. We don't like hearing about a mentally ill person being killed by a cop but the question is, is what the D.A. did here, is this the right outcome under the law?

Let's get some perspective, Jonathan Safran, he's the attorney for Dontre Hamilton's family. We have Tom Fuentes, CNN Law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Let's -- I'll start with one macro-question and look at this step by step.

Councilor, do you believe this a white black issue or is this about a cop's ability to deal with someone who's mentally ill?

JONATHAN SAFRAN, ATTORNEY FOR DONTRE HAMILTON'S FAMILY: I think it's primarily an accountability issue. This is an officer that didn't receive the training that he should have had, didn't seem to know how to react in regard to dealing with someone who is suffering from some mental health issues. I don't know if it's a black or white issue or not.

CUOMO: Tom, is that a fair expectation these days with the advent of mental illness problems that we have in society? Is this something that officer should have to take into consideration that you don't treat someone the same way when they're mentally ill as if they were not?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well certainly Chris and, you know, but this is an age-old question, mental illness didn't just happened in this country in the last couple of years even though the systems to treat it had deteriorated dramatically. You know, we have issue after issue with mental illness where the people aren't being treated, whether they're veterans coming back for more or just our citizen population.

And it is a contributing factor but you also have the factor, is this officer a bully, should he -- does he have horrible judgment which he does have in this case or did have. And, you know, what does the police department do about it? How do they select people like this to give them badges and batons and guns. And do they discipline, do they train, you know, there's a lot of questions in this that I would agree with councilor.

CUOMO: How do you get fired but not indicted or charged?

FUENTES: Well, you violate...

SAFRARI: Well, the problem in this case...

CUOMO: Hold on one second, councilor, go ahead Tom, as from the cop perspective.

FUENTES: Well, you violated rules of a police department, you know, that they don't want you to be engaged in certain activity. Having a decision to charge somebody criminally is a different matter and it's up to the district attorney to make that call or in this case, if it's under investigation by the FBI, it will up to the U.S. government, the Federal Government to make the call for justice.

But, you know, there are some officers and there are some people that, you know, we use to say, there's a guy that could make Ghandi fight. And it looks like if this officer walked up and manage to provoke the incident to where the individual is hitting him with his own baton, at that point, may be you could say he's in danger of his life but he certainly brought that on himself. There's no question about that.

CUOMO: So when you look at the situation, councilor, cops responded to the situation before Manney did, and they left the guy alone and left. They realized him as a mental ill guy, didn't seem posing a threat and they left.

The officer get some voicemail or something, picks up on the situation late, doesn't know that the other officers have gone, he goes there and tries to pat the guy down, what is your understanding of what he did wrong?

SAFRAN: Well, the first thing he did is he put himself on an assignment. He had called in to find out if an assignment was there, they told him no. He decided to create one himself and then go to the scene and confront Dontre Hamilton himself. CUOMO: Why?

SAFRAN: Then what he did is he did this improper pat-down, that improper pat-down is what lead to the altercation, the eventional fight between the two of them, and then this 14 shots when he emptied his clip, that's the problem we got. They're intertwined. He can't...

CUOMO: What's an improper pat-down? Step by step, what's the improper pat down?

SAFRAN: Well, in this case, there was absolutely no reason to believe that Dontre Hamilton have done, was going to do, or had committed any type of crime. So there was no reason, even the district attorney in meetings that we have with him early on, indicated that.

CUOMO: All right. And is it true that the officer knew or should have known that Dontre Hamilton had some mental health issues?

SAFRAN: He didn't know. They had not had an interaction before. I'm not sure yet where the mental health issues relate to this. What did -- what was known is that he did suffer some paranoid schizophrenia, whether that was the reason that he interacted the way he did. Again, he'd already been shot by two officers already shortly before. They let him alone. Now, here we have another officer, comes again, starts to question to him, makes him stands up -- stand up and now, does this pat-down search.

CUOMO: All right. So while he's doing the pat-down search, Mr. Hamilton doesn't like it at some point. Do they get into an altercation at some point? And then what's you're understanding of what happens?

SAFRAN: That's a little unclear. One thing we do know is from the autopsy records, we know that Dontre Hamilton had blunt force injuries to his head and face. He had contusions, he had abrasions. That's indicative of obviously being struck either by fist or by the baton of this officer. It's a little unclear if the officer was striking him first, and this was unreasonable force, then very well, Dontre Hamilton may have had the opportunity and the ability to then respond appropriately by resisting that. Then obviously, they disengaged. This officer separated because there was no gunshot residue on Dontre, and he fired those 14 shots. The question is, is that excessive force? Why did he need to fire 14 shots, half of them in a downward direction, one in his back?

CUOMO: Well, isn't the answer from the policeman's perspective and eventually the district attorney that Mr. Hamilton got control of the baton which may have been being used on him as you assert, and he started beating the officer with it, made him fear for his life and then he shot him, couldn't that be the outcome?

SAFRAN: Well, that is the question. The evidence that we've seen, we've seen photographs that were taken of Christopher Manney shortly after. I will tell you they were no visible injuries to his neck, his head, his face, his upper part of his body. That doesn't seem to be consistent with someone who's being struck in the head.

And even if you hear Manney on that original tape when he calls back in to dispatch, he's not even sure he's actually hit. So, we have a lot of concerns as to whether those injuries are significant and whether indeed he did have this feeling of being an imminent treat of bodily -- great bodily injury or death to justify the shooting. That's what we have the concern about, let alone the 14 times.

CUOMO: Tom, what will you make of the outcome? They had a new law in Wisconsin that has an independent investigative body. There's a question as to whether or not that investigative body involves current or former Milwaukee police officers, but they looked at it. He asked for an outside use of force expert. And then the D.A. says, "No, it was a justifiable shooting because of the reasonable risk, because the baton being used on the officer."

FUENTES: Well, I think that, you know, having the outside body do the investigation is one thing. The question that many people have been raising is, that the final decision should be made by an independent body or independent prosecutor, not the prosecutor in that district that works with those police officers. So I think it still doesn't completely solve what people are asking about if you have an independent investigation, they're going to find that, "Oh yeah. Does this matter escalated up to a point where the officer used deadly physical force? But, did the officer provoke it to the extent to where he have to or to where it rose to that level?" And I think, that's what the chief of police's basically saying is that, "Look, by the time the officer shoots, he needed to shoot. He was in danger." Well again, go back to the beginning of this and all of the things the officer did that led to it being at that point.

CUOMO: And that may understand -- that may explain what seems like a very confusing situation counts with that this police officer could very well have exercised bad judgment, created a bad situation. But then once he was in it, he may have reasonably feared for his life, and that's why he winds up not being charged. Is that acceptable to you even if it is legally consistent?

SAFRAN: Well, one of the concern again that we have is that when D.A. Chisholm gave his analysis, he did seem to separate those two things. He said he was not looking at the pat-down, the interaction prior to the shooting. You can't separate that. That altercation was started by the fact that this officer did this improper search. That's what led -- that's what caused everything to occur.

So I think that's where we have now the Federal Government that we've asked to come in, that's going to come in now, do an investigation. Maybe they'll be able to look at that in the broader picture because he can't separate those two things.

That shooting occurred as a result of the first actions by this officer of interacting with Dontre for no apparent reason and then doing the search which then led to the altercation.

CUOMO: Jonathan Safran, Tom Fuentes, thank you very much for you taking the case this morning. I appreciate it. Christine?

SAFRAN: Thank you, Chris.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, let's take a look at some of these other top stories this morning. A chilling breach of security involving loaded guns at two of the nation's busiest airports. A current delta employee and a former one allegedly conspired to get weapons around the airport security and onto planes from Atlanta to New York. Some of these weapons loaded.

Baggage handler Eugene Harvey was arrested and is now out on bond. Former Delta employee, Mark Henry was arrested at JFK Airport earlier this month. Official say, one of his other co-conspirators in New York sold one of the guns to an undercover cop.

North Korea's internet struggling to stay online this morning after more than nine hour black out. We're told the internet has been spotty since first coming back. No word yet if the U.S. is responsible as potential retaliation for the regime's alleged hack on Sony.

Meantime, the new CNN ORC poll just released, finds 62 percent of Americans believes Sony overreacted by pulling "The Interview" from movie theaters. But 61 percent believes its fair game to call the hack on Sony a terrorist act by North Korea.

Rolling Stones magazine has commissioned to the Columbia University School of Journalism to review its widely discredited article about a gang rape at the University of Virginia. The review will be conducted by the Dean of the Journalism School and the Dean of Academic Affairs. It will evaluate the editorial process that lead to the publication of that story. Rolling Stones says the findings will be published unedited on its website.

And another record for gas prices, they have now fallen, and counting, 89 days in a row. We have not seen a higher price of the pump since September. Now, the previous record was in a fall of 2008 as the recession -- lower actually was in the fall of 2008 as the precession begun. The national average per a gallon of regular stands at $2.38 down $0.86 from this time last year.

It has been remarkable. You have seen 89 days in a row of falling gas prices. It puts money right at the people's pockets.

CAMEROTA: This is your favorite Christmas story.

ROMANS: It really is...

CUOMO: How long this will go -- pick me a number, give me a number.

ROMANS: I think you're plumbing are low here. I think you're plumbing are here. I think that it had such a swift move you won't -- I mean next year, I think the average that the government is looking for is maybe $2.60 a gallon.

CUOMO: You're in the government, what's your number? ROMANS: You're trying to put me on the record here, aren't you?

CUOMO: Yes. I want you in the record. Give me a number.

ROMANS: I think you're closer to 2.50 than 3 probably here.

CUOMO: 2.50, give me a number.

ROMANS: 262, I live at Jersey though so it's cheaper than...

CUOMO: We can go where you live. You say 250?

ROMANS: All right, I say 250.

CUOMO: I say 248.

ROMANS: You got money on it?

CUOMO: Yes.

ROMANS: All right.

CAMEROTA: You shouldn't say that, that is what he's looking for, the lunch.

(CROSSTALK)

ROMANS: Such a bad influence.

CAMEROTA: I know, but we like lunch.

CUOMO: What's wrong with betting on low gas price?

CAMEROTA: Nothing's wrong with lunch. We love it. All right.

Meanwhile, here's an important conversation that we need to have. The attackers in Brooklyn and Sydney, both their past, show signs of mental illness. But maybe they were just angry men. We will speak with a forensic psychiatrist who has a theory on what drives them.

CUOMO: And the Department of Defense now beefing up its Cyber Defenses after even more dangerous rhetoric from North Korea. We're going to tell you what they're saying and the question, will the U.S. be able to protect you?

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CAMEROTA: The recent attacks in Brooklyn and the hostage taking in Sydney seem to have a common threat, heinous acts by people with a history of mental illness. But is that what's behind these attacks or was it hatred of police in Brooklyn and Islamic extremism in Australia?

Let's ask Dr. Michael Welner. He's a leading forensic psychiatrist. He's also the architect of something called the depravity standard which uses public opinion surveys to help courts define the very worst of crimes. Doctor, thank you so much for being here.

MICHAEL WELNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Good morning, nice to be here.

CAMEROTA: Let's start with Brooklyn. The gunman behind this said he was retaliating for the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases, but maybe he was just mentally ill. How do we know which one it is?

WELNER: For people who haven't had an opportunity to review records, even professionals and who don't have access to files, that can be a very difficult distinction to make because sometimes people are driven by criminal deviance, sometimes they're influenced by psychiatric illness, and sometimes it's a bit of both.

I think that what's most remarkable about the Brooklyn gunman is that while you see many, many, many arrest and a history of violence and even an experience where his family was frightened of him, by the time one goes for the system that many times, you're definitely going to see a psychiatrist. And if you don't have with that colorful history an experience of significant hospitalization, well, then you have a lot of psychiatrists who are concluding that you have antisocial personality or you have drug problems, but not the kind of psychotic drive that we speak of when we find an irrational crime.

CAMEROTA: OK, so you've drawn the distinction. I just want to make sure, between antisocial behavior, or substance abuse, and mental illness, there are two different things. He might have had the first, but not the second.

WELNER: Yes. And from a standpoint of us as a public looking at it, there are crimes in which a person is playing to his own idea, an irrational idea that nobody shares, and there's a crime like Brooklyn and like Sydney where someone plays to a constituency that thinks exactly as he does, whether we choose to admit it or not.

He was from Maryland, he didn't carry out his crime in Maryland. He came to New York, he didn't carry out his crime as soon as he came to New York. He went to an area where there's established tension between the police department and local residents, and said watch what I'm going to do. He was using social media to brag about what he was going to do, and then after he did it, there were some local residents who were clapping and laughing in the aftermath.

And the parallel between that and the Sydney offender is this is not a person who is isolated as the government would suggest. He had 14,000 followers on Facebook, so he had a constituency. He was a peace activist. There are some peace activists who experienced an entitlement, keep the violence. That's different.

CAMEROTA: Meaning, he claimed he was.

WELNER: Well, you know, there are some folks who work in different clauses and they may call it social justice. Somebody may work for Greenpeace and feel entitled to blow up a ship. It's violent, but they call themselves an activist with the idea of social justice. And he may have had an advocacy, but he chose to violence as a way to express himself, and there are others who identify with that. Mental illness, in a mental illness-driven crime, has a quality of irrationality to it in way...

CAMEROTA: Irrationality.

WELNER: Irrationality to it in a way that nobody could relate to it, except the perpetrator himself because he's playing to himself, in his own needs and his own demons in his head.

CAMEROTA: Here is what the gunman-in-Brooklyn's sister had to say about his past. She believed that he was mentally ill. Let's listen to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JALAA'A BRINSLEY, GUNMAN'S SISTER: This has nothing to do with police retaliation. This was a troubled -- emotionally troubled kid. He needed help, he didn't get it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: She said, "He needed help, he didn't get it." He didn't go see various psychiatrists. He testified to that when he was arrested the 19 times. Is there a way for families to commit people to mental hospitals or to get them the help they need even if they themselves won't do it?

WELNER: We absolutely have solutions available to us right now in the United States to enhance the ability of families to deal with people who are in crisis, whether that crisis is precipitated by drug abuse or acute reactions to, his case, rejection by a girlfriend.

CAMEROTA: So then, why couldn't they have gotten him in that?

WELNER: Well, there are solutions that are available, but there are laws that need to be passed. We've talked on this program before about Congressman Tim Murphy's resolution, HR 3717, helping families in mental health crisis. What we don't yet have are families who are empowered to say my loved one is going down the drain. My loved one needs acute help.

A person who doesn't want help and who has no insight can go into an emergency room, pull it together, say I'm not going to harm anybody, I'm going to be fine -- and we had a familicide last week in which somebody wiped out six people in his family then killed himself and his wife was clamoring that she was terrified of him, that he was going down the drain. So, there's legislation available. I would encourage your viewers to call their congressman and to support 3717, because families are cut out of the decision-making process about getting help.

Now, I would also quickly say that we don't know what happened in his mental health background. I would expect a family member to distance themselves from hatred and in such way that it doesn't reflect on the family. So, I understand her position and I think the evidence ultimately speaks for itself. CAMEROTA: Very quickly, one of the things you touched on, and I think this is really fascinating, he first shot his ex-girlfriend, and you say that often these crimes, and this is one of the distinctions between mental illness and a rational player, is that it comes after romantic rejection. Then people do these spectacular crimes to prove themselves.

WELNER: There are -- both of these crimes involved spectacles. But spectacle homicide, in my experience in a work on a variety of these cases, spectacle homicide is seen in people who have high expectations of themselves. And he talked about wanting to do something good. But the trigger for them is the finality of an important romantic rejection or social sexual alienation, the idea of doing something that's so spectacular, why, because they identify their masculinity through their capacity to destroy.

All of us who speak publicly, we can shape a message that say you're not a man by virtue of whom you can destroy. And when people who are seduced by ISIS get pulled into this, are exposed to a message that says your manhood is not defined by your ability to destroy for the sake of destroying. We create a force to counter that. Right now, there's tremendous pressure on the entitlement to violence toward police officers, and we can send a message out that that doesn't make you a man to kill for the sake of killing.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's hope we're doing that this morning. Dr. Michael Welner, thank you so much for being on New Day.

WELNER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's go over to Chris.

CUOMO: Boy, that is a discussion that needed to be had, thank you for that to both of you. We also want to talk to you this morning about the Sony hack attack. The Pentagon is now beefing up its cyber defenses against North Korea, endowing a, quote, "Proportional response." What does that mean and did we just see it in the North Korean internet blackout?

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