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New Day

Two Suspects Identified; Two Hostage Situations Underway; Unemployment Falls to 5.6%

Aired January 09, 2015 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hayat Boumedienne, who's in her 20s, and her picture there on the left of the screen.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: OK.

GORANI: But we don't know if they're connected with anything going on today in the east of Paris, in that (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: That's very important. Very important.

GORANI: Yes.

CUOMO: That had been the word from authorities that they thought the person in the shooting yesterday was now the person in the hostage situation in the kosher (ph) market.

GORANI: Right.

CUOMO: But they did not make that connection in this latest release.

GORANI: No.

CUOMO: Let's go to Jim Sciutto. He's on the phone.

Jim, you hear what we're reporting. You're reading the same e-mail that we got. Is there any way to verify whether these two suspects, who have been released by French authorities, are the people they're dealing with right now in the kosher market?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): We only know with a level of confidence that police believe them to be the case - believe to be them - them to be the assailants here, and that's why they're releasing their I.D.s.

Let me just tell you where I am, Chris. I'm standing under a police helicopter, which is hovering in fixed position over this kosher market here. That, in addition to really just hundreds of police and we've seen dozens of police cars just in the last few minutes, police vans I should say, carrying more in here. And, sadly, as I mentioned just a few moments ago, Chris, a number of ambulances heading in the opposite direction, one of them rushing with police escort.

AFP, the French wire service, is reporting that two are dead in this shooting. We have not confirmed that. Police have not mentioned that. But I will tell you, the indication, just from being on this scene, is that there are injured being rushed away from it right now. And we're very close now to where this hostage situation is underway.

CUOMO: Is there - is there any indication, Jim, from what you're seeing there, that there is active engagement between police and the one or more suspects who are in that kosher market?

SCIUTTO: There is not, because, Chris, we're close enough now that we would hear it if there was. We would hear the gunfire if there was. At this point, we haven't heard it certainly in the last few moments.

Remember, there should be a similar posture here to what we're seeing at Charles de Gaulle Airport, where the two gunmen from the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting are, which is, they want to establish control, they want to keep people at a safe distance, bystanders, et cetera, and they want to engage where they can. Remember, it is a report that there are five -- that there are five hostages being held here. Again, police have not said that publicly. So primary among their concerns is to keep those hostages safe.

So they're not going to want to move in. They're going to want to avoid engagement at this point unless absolutely necessary there. You know, you and I have covered the military a lot, Chris. These counter- terror teams, they have -- you can call them rules of engagement as well. They have very strict measures that they follow to see when they use force. And when you have hostages, they're going to be very reluctant to use force unless necessary because, of course, they don't want to endanger the lives of the hostages.

CUOMO: Right. But, obviously, once they've had, Jim, any indication that those suspects, one or more suspects inside that place are willing to take lives of hostages, that also can accelerate the violence and tactics that are used by the authorities because they, obviously, want to - they want to shortcut the ability to do any more harm as much as they can.

So what else are you seeing from there, Jim? What's relevant?

SCIUTTO: Well, they have -- so this is the main street leading to Porte de Vincennes, this neighborhood in east Paris, where the kosher shop is located. The police have now stretched red and white barriers across the main street. This is the first street we've come to where not only are they stopping cars, they're also stopping pedestrians. That's a sign of the level of concern they have about the safety here.

I can tell you, I am about 200 yards now from the corner where this kosher shop is. Just on this one main street, Chris, I can count 20 maybe police vans. You can hear their sirens. The helicopter is still overhead. They are, and we talked about this earlier with the Charles de Gaulle situation, they are flooding the zone here. That is the French police response. And, listen, it makes sense. You have what are believed to be one or two armed attackers here, possibly the attacker and his girlfriend, and you have apparently hostages inside.

CUOMO: All right, Jim, you know, be careful. You know how to do the job. Please let us know information as you're getting it from there. I'll check back in with you and I'm on the e-mail if you want to get me that way more quickly. We have Christiane Amanpour standing by. But, Hala, before we go

there, you saw this e-mail that I just got here.

GORANI: Yes.

CUOMO: Pronounce this man's name again, the suspect for me?

GORANI: So it's Amedy Coulibaly is the name as I'm reading it there on our screen.

CUOMO: All right, and -

GORANI: And Hayat Boumedienne.

CUOMO: And they do have authorities that are linking him to the brothers in this. That they do believe there's an affiliation that goes back to what they're calling the Iraqi connection. Whatever that means.

GORANI: Right, the (INAUDIBLE), which is a group of young guys who would play football together.

CUOMO: Right.

GORANI: Authorities quoted by many sources at this point are saying that they either were friends, that they knew each other, or that they were associates. So, therefore, making a connection that is becoming clearer and clearer between what happened here on Wednesday, the shooting at "Charlie Hebdo," and the killing of that female police officer in Montrouge.

CUOMO: The way I read it, correct me if I'm wrong -

GORANI: Uh-huh, yes.

CUOMO: Is that they did not say that this man and maybe this woman were involved in what happened here, but that they are involved with, as an association, the men who did this.

GORANI: Yes, absolutely correct. Right now we do not have confirmation that these two individuals are the ones who were involved in this hostage situation in Vincennes, east of here.

CUOMO: Right. Right, because it's important to keep the numbers involved here. Authorities believe three people were involved in what happened at "Charlie Hebdo." They thought it was this 18, 19-year-old may have been the driver. He turned himself in. We had that expert here, Hollande, who said he is not involved. So that means they're still looking for a third person who was involved here. They do not believe that these two are that third person.

GORANI: Right. And also, Chris, this female suspect, this is news to everyone.

CUOMO: Is new.

GORANI: We didn't know there was even a second suspect, let alone a female in this case.

CUOMO: Right.

GORANI: So this is all coming together slowly, but we're getting a clearer picture hour by hour.

CUOMO: Right. And we do not know that one or either or both of these two people on your screen right now are involved in the standoff in the kosher market.

GORANI: We do not know that.

CUOMO: OK.

GORANI: We do not have confirmation of that.

CUOMO: So just to kind of give you the best and clearest information of what numbers of people are involved here, so let's bring in Christiane Amanpour right now.

Christiane, you're following this. It's really been flooded with new information, and events since you took the trip just from Paris to London. But, obviously, the French authorities are dealing with people who are related in terms of their own radicalization, if not the operation of the violence that we've seen here now in two different instances.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, and let's wait to see exactly who they are. But, you know, we are looking at this woman who's now been named and her picture is out there. And last night, actually the French foreign minister told me in our interview that of those 1,000 people who they have on their list who have traveled to Syria and who have -- they suspect many of them are radicalized, he said to me, 30 percent of those are women and are people who may come back and create mayhem in France. Thirty percent he told me in that interview that we broadcast last night. So they do have women on their radar, and they are watching those people as well in terms of who may come back and all this, you know, blowback, as we've said, over and over again.

Meantime, here in England, having arrived back, you can see the stepped up security here wherever you go. But furthermore, in a very dramatic speech, the head of MI-5, which is the United Kingdom's domestic intelligence arm, gave a speech last night. Now, it was pre- planned before the French attack, but he nonetheless gave the speech and linked specifically Syria and al Qaeda elements and other militants to what they believe are plots aimed at the west, more plots. He said in the last 14 months, 20 plots have been identified, and that they believe that there is something, quote, "a mass casualty assault," planned somewhere in the west, could be in England, could be anywhere else, on things like transport, on things like iconic landmarks. So very, very stark warning indeed by the head of British domestic intelligence.

Chris. CUOMO: Christiane, while we're waiting for more word and developments from these two scenes, let's talk about what this means, what's happened already. To have these two connected, if not concerted acts of violence in one city within days of one another, and these ongoing hostage situations, you know, how would you qualify this in terms of the level of risk and assault?

AMANPOUR: Well, look, it's very high, obviously. I mean, again, yesterday, you know, what we've seen is, in the words of the highest French authorities, the worst attack in France in 50 years. 5-0, half a century. What's going on right now is the worst they've had to deal with. And I, too, was living in Paris during the '90s and, to be honest, the level of threat then was much, much lower than what's going on right now.

And it is, again, about -- we've been talking about this sort of group of youngsters who may have been radicalized. It is classic grooming, as it has been described. Classic grooming by that radical imam using football, using whatever they do. You hear that term grooming all the time on the Internet, whether it's in a terrorist situation or whether it's teenagers getting sucked into unsavory behavior. In other words, people out there able to turn the heads of those who are eager to have their heads turned or just vulnerable and being able to be turned around and deployed as a weapon of destruction. And that is what's happening here.

And, again, the French authorities have said that, look, and we've said this over and over again, there are too many of them and not enough of us. It takes a huge amount of personnel and just man hours and people hours to actually serval everybody. Obviously it's troubling that the young Cherif had been under -- the young Kouachi, Cherif Kouachi, had been under surveillance according to the ministry of justice until this summer and then was no longer on their radar screen in terms of having been servaled. But you've got three incidence now, you've got the "Charlie Hebdo," you've got the policewoman who was killed yesterday morning, and you've got this supermarket standoff that's happening right now.

CUOMO: And now, Christiane, obviously, as we wait for these situations to resolve right now, you're looking at more authorities coming in. We've heard that the mayor of Paris is on their way to the scene at this kosher market. But, obviously, we're going to have to wait. Hopefully they get resolved quickly and as safely as possible.

There's soft information about injuries already involved at the kosher market. We can't verify them. But no matter what happens, Christiane, this is going to have an indelible impression on how the French authorities deal with the risk that they're dealing with among their own population. And certainly for the people living in Paris, and the French population, this is going to be something that will just be the worst kind of wake-up call. But hopefully it comes to a quick resolution and there is no more bloodshed.

Thank you for your perspective.

Let me get back to New York right now. I'll let you know, Alisyn and Michaela, when we have any more developments.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Please do that, Chris. We will join you again momentarily. But we want to bring in Paul Cruickshank, he's our CNN terrorism analyst, and Jim Arkedis, he's a former Department of Defense counterterrorism official.

Paul, I want to start with you. What do we know about these two new suspects who appear to be involved in this second hostage standoff, as well as, authorities say, linked to the shooting of the policewoman in Montrouge yesterday?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Michaela, we know precious little about them beyond their faces and their names. It does appear that at least one of them had a connection to this sort of al Qaeda in Iraq recruitment cell, which was trying to recruit French nationals to go and fight in Iraq against U.S. combat troops in Iraq in those years which at least one of the brothers involved in the attack on the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine was also involved in. So there does seem to be a connection between these two attacks -

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Right.

CRUICKSHANK: The attack on the satirical magazine and also this gunning down of a French police officer, a female police officer, yesterday morning in southern Paris.

It should be noted, just a few hundred yards away from a Jewish school -

PEREIRA: Right.

CRUICKSHANK: Which may have been the target. According to some eyewitnesses on the scene yesterday, it's possible that the police officer was just a target of opportunity -

PEREIRA: Right.

CRUICKSHANK: Because there was this traffic incident.

PEREIRA: And noteworthy that the second standoff is at a kosher shop.

Jim Arkedis, I have to ask you, you talked about the fact that there's very little known, Paul, but, Jim, let's just talk appearances. We have a male, 33 years old, this new suspect, looking, appearing as if he is of African descent, and notably a woman. It's been interesting to hear what Christiane Amanpour was telling us that French officials were telling her that of the travelers from France going to Syria and to the Arabian Peninsula that 30 percent are women. I think a lot of people will find that shocking.

JIM ARKEDIS, FORMER DEPT. OF DEFENSE TERRORISM OFFICIAL: Sure. I'm sure that they do. I think the -- one of the things to discuss, and I want to be very careful to caveat that this is all very preliminary and that we have no hard evidence to suggest this.

PEREIRA: Fair enough. ARKEDIS: To confirm it. But as events have unfolded outside of Charles

de Gaulle Airport in and Dammartin, the -- and this Porte de Vivennes incident has occurred as well. I would like to suggest that perhaps the individuals who were involved in the kosher shop in Porte de Vincennes could have possibly been part of the wider network and had some sort of connection in the planning and perhaps escape routes to the Kouachi brothers. And we're now at the point where, as events have unfolded and things have heated up with police activity, individuals involved in the wider network with the Kouachi brothers have decided that kind of the jig is up and it's time to get moving. And, you know, they realize that the end is in sight and that they may also want to take matters into their own hands.

CAMEROTA: And, Jim, even before we - I want to stick with you, Jim, for one more minute, because even before we knew about these two other suspects, this man and this woman, you were saying that they were part of this wider network. How were you so certain that these two brothers did have bigger resources and a wider network?

ARKEDIS: Well, I'm basing it mostly on the fact that they went to al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen and trained, probably in 2005 and 2011. Now, I want to be also careful about caveating the fact that this was absolutely certainly an AQAP attack. It certainly bares the hallmarks of being involved with this network, and that's really what I'm talking about when I say wider network. There's certainly individuals who have entered these pipelines, who have gone to training camps, and then come back to Europe with the skills that are necessary.

So, just to timeline things out very quickly, In 2005 and then in 2011 the Kouachi brothers went to Yemen, it is believed at this point any way, to engage in training and then came back. In 2012, al Qaeda put the editor of "Charlie Hebdo" on it's quote, unquote, most wanted list. Now, it's unclear at this point whether the most wanted list that came out was from al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan, or was from al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. But, beyond that coincidence, there is - - and the Kouachi brothers may have been taking direction from this sort of, you know, almost subliminal indication that these are the people to target, but we don't have confirmation, I want to be very clear about this, we do not have confirmation that there has been a direct command and control instruction from al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula to the Kouachi brothers to go and conduct this attack.

So, when we talk about lone wolves, when we talk about connections to networks, it's almost - - it doesn't serve us completely well to make these kind of leaps without really, clearly establishing what those linkages are.

PEREIRA: We're watching the scene unfold on our screen ahead of us. You can see a great military presence, and I sort of want to refer to that, Paul. Michaela here again as we talk about what's happening there in Paris. We're three days in, this is chaos unfolding on the streets and in the rural areas in and around Paris, in this beautiful city that so many Americans travel to. We've talked about after the days after, and the hours after, the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre about, Paul, the fact that this was the biggest act of violence and this kind of terrorism case that that country has seen in some two decades. And I want to talk about the fact that this is now changing the game, if you will. This is different kind of foe that antiterrorism officials are battling.

CRUICKSHANK: Well, that's right, and the events of today have really multiplied the impact of this terrorist attack. The terrorists involved will be aware of that, that the world is watching. I think the fact that one of the brothers trained with al Qaeda in Yemen a few years ago, three years ago, is an indication that they're also probably recruited into this organization, al Qaeda in Yemen.

This is an organization that doesn't give training to people who are not recruits. They're very, very careful about Westerners coming in. They're very worried about spies. So, I think if this guy, one of the brothers, trained with this group, I think it's also highly likely he was recruited into the group, and I think also highly likely, given everything we know about this group, that he was encouraged at the very least to go back to Europe, to plot attacks. It's possible there was a meeting at some point, though it has not been confirmed, with Anwar al-Awlaki, an American terrorist cleric in Yemen.

These brothers are now saying that this attack, these attacks, are in retaliation for the U.S. drone strike on al-Awlaki in September 2011. Now Awlaki was an inspiration for a generation of extremists in the West. Also responsible for two attacks on U.S. aviation attempted plots.

CAMEROTA: Paul Cruickshank, Jim Arkedis, thanks so much for being with us. We're going to take a very quick break right now. We're going to have more of our breaking coverage of these two dramatic hostage standoffs that are unfolding in Paris. Stick around, more live from Paris in one moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: We will get back to our coverage of two hostage standoffs in France in one moment, but quickly we have other breaking news for you. We have some major economic news here at home to tell you about because employers added 252,000 jobs in December. That has sent the unemployment rate down to 5.6%. And November's job numbers were also just revised upwards. 2.9 million jobs were added in 2014, making that the strongest year for job growth since 1999.

PEREIRA: Incredibly.

CAMEROTA: So, we're glad to bring you that major economic domestic news. And of course we want to get back now to the breaking news in and around Paris. Let's go back to Chris Cuomo who is on the ground there. Chris?

CUOMO: All right, thanks Alisyn. We have two developing, critical situations here in Paris. The first involves the two terror suspects from the horrible massacre here at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo." They escaped by car, you'll remember. They encountered three different sets of police. They wound up killing a police officer, executed him, very wantonly. He turned out to be a Muslim police officer. They made it out of Paris. Surveillance took up the chase. There was contact made by a helicopter. They followed them through the roads of northern Paris.

The suspects became aware of this, they abandoned their vehicle, they entered woods on foot, although bringing their weapons. The authorities found some simple explosives reportedly in that vehicle, however they were unable to find the suspects in those woods overnight. They used infrared and night vision to search surround fields. Again, no contact. However, the following morning the suspects were able to commandeer a vehicle.

When they did so, they announced to the person in the car that they were not going to hurt any civilians, that is proven untrue time and time again, and they also said, we are from al Qaeda in Yemen, we are from AQAP, known as al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsuala, and we are doing this as revenge for the death of one of our leaders, the murder of one of our leaders.

They then got chased in that vehicle into an industrial area in the northeastern part of France, and that is where they are held up now. They're in an industrial area, in an office building, looks kind of like a factory. You'll see it on your screen. They have been surrounded by tons of French authorities, the French best. Their SWAT team that is a military outfit is in control of the operation. They've made contact with the suspects. The suspects have taken a hostage, a female, they say they will not let her go and they are willing to be martyred for their cause, although they've had opportunities to be martyred. And they have not taken them thus far and authorities are banking on that, that with time and fatigue they will be able to negotiate a settlement that brings no more violence, but they are ready to launch an assault.

That's what's going on there. We're going to go to that scene in just a moment. However, there's a second situation going on. There was a shooting after the massacre at "Charlie Hebdo's" offices where at a routine traffic circle there was someone dressed similarly to the suspects in "Charlie Hebdo's" terrorist attack, and they opened fire. They shot two police officers, one of them was a female, she died from her wounds. Now the police, the French authorities have announced their two suspects. They showed pictures. A male and a female, that had not been known before.

Now, subsequent to that, there is now a standoff at a kosher market just east of our location right now. We do not know if the people on your screen are who are being dealt with by the authorities right now in that kosher market. But, again, hostages are involved. We understand that when the suspect entered that market he told people there "you know who I am." And that is giving the authorities the reason to believe that it may be the man who was just on your screen. Hostages, again, may include children and women.

So now let's go to the scene of the industrial park where the two terrorists from the "Charlie Hebdo" attack are confined right now. That's where Fred Pleitgen is. Fred, what's the latest there?

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Chris. Well, it's this waiting game that continues here. What's going on is that this industrial area that you're talking about, it's only about 400 yards in that direction. The police have set up shop here. They have a headquarters kind of that they set up which is actually in that building over there, which is sort of a gym building here. There's a lot of police officers in there. There's also a lot of police officers in the streets around here. I think if we pan over in that direction we can see just how many police vehicles there are parked on the street here.

What's happened was that all of this began to unfold at around 10:00 am early this morning, and the police then surrounded that industrial area. It's actually kind of a print shop, Chris, is what we're hearing from the local people here, very well known to the local folks here. It's the kind of place you get your business cards printed. It's the kind of place that you would get little magazines printed, leaflets, stuff like that. The other thing that's going on is that the schools here are still on lockdown. And if Claudy (ph), our camera operator here pans a little further, you can see one of the schools here and a single parent there in front of it waiting to try and pick up her child. There's some people who have actually been able to get their children out of the area.

It looks as though right now the authorities are starting to ease that lockdown just a little bit. We're seeing more people on the streets here. We've also seen some parents who have been able to come in and get their children out of the school. We've also heard from other crews that we have in the area here that other schools, the evacuation, there seems to have been lifted, or at least - - the evacuations there seem to have begun and parents were able to go and bring their children out of those schools.

We heard for a while that perhaps they would do a total evacuation and get all of the kids out and then the parents would only be able to pick them up, but we have seen some parents come here to try and pick up their children. So it looks as though the authorities have the situation here under control. They seem to have those two suspects who are in there cornered at this point in time, and right now it really is a waiting game. What we've heard from the local mayor here is they're not going to make any fast moves. They're going to wait for this to play out. They certainly don't want to endanger the life of the hostage, Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Fred. Thank you very much, and of course the reason to be careful is because there is a female hostage inside. So, we'll keep monitoring that situation. Now, to the other active situation where there are hostages involved and we're hearing reports that there may be children hostages involved. Now, Jim Sciutto, you're there. I'm getting word from sources close to the investigation that the man that was put out by French authorities as a suspect in the shooting of the police officer yesterday is the man inside there, that he announced as much to people inside that market when he went in, saying "you know who I am." What do you hear from the ground there?

Jim? All right, I don't have Jim right now, but we're going to get Jim Sciutto on the phone. He's there. And, again, let me repeat what I just reported there is that the person that French authorities put out as being a suspect in the shooting of a police officer yesterday, there were two actually, two officers shot, and also two suspects names and pictures released. If you want to put up the pictures, because that's who we're talking about right now. The man and woman at the bottom of your screen.

She is supposedly his girlfriend, but she's also been connected by authorities to the shooting yesterday. I am told by sources close to the investigation that the man on your screen is the man inside that market right now and that he announced himself as such. I want to bring in Anderson Cooper, he's standing next to me right now.

Obviously you've been (INAUDIBLE) the coverage since it began. It has gotten very complicated.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. There - -

CUOMO: Here this morning. Here's what we're still trying to think through. Authorities believe here at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" there were three people involved, right? They thought the third may have been a getaway driver, may have been that 18, 19-year-old kid. They no longer think that anymore.

COOPER: Right, that 18-year-old gave himself up, had allegedly had alibis. It seems like he was not the person involved.

CUOMO: Right, but that means they are still believing that there was a third person.

COOPER: At the very least a third person, yes. There were also, remember, hand signals given by the attackers during this terror attack at "Charlie Hebdo," raising the questions was there somebody else involved? Now you have this woman whose photo is being shown as linked to this guy who appears to be, according to eyewitnesses, from North Africa. So, it's not clear. At least three people involved in "Charlie Hebdo."

CUOMO: So, the mystery is are these two people that their pictures and faces are on your screen, who are believed to be the suspects of the shooting of the two police officers yesterday, not here at "Charlie Hebdo," but were they here? Are they involved in that as well? That doesn't seem clear.

COOPER: Right, we are not clear in that. Is this, in fact, the third gunman, or the third terrorist who attacked the "Charlie Hebdo" headquarters? Is that third gunman the same person who shot the policewoman later in, I should say, early yesterday morning, early Thursday morning? Other questions remain, but a couple of things to point out.

Remember, that policewoman was killed near the location of a Jewish school. This is a kosher market, it's also near a Jewish neighborhood, the start of Shabbat. How much of this was a target of opportunity, something that they're on the run, there's this massive manhunt, they just decided to strike out at this target? How much of this was actually part of a predesigned plan? Obviously the two gunmen who got away from "Charlie Hebdo" wanted to remain operational, it was not a suicide attack at "Charlie Hebdo." So clearly they wanted to continue a reign of terror, continue to carry out terror attacks, which frankly makes it unlike some other terror attacks we've seen recently.

So, was this part of a preordained plan, or is this just, you know, there's this massive manhunt underway, they're not just trying to get any target they can. It seems like, though, you have these two ongoing standoffs, these two ongoing hostage situations, will there be any more, or is this the entire cell? You know, there is now made by, as you've been reporting, by French police a linkage between this suspect and the suspects in the "Charlie Hebdo" attack, the two brothers from years before, both from a cell that was trying to get people to go to Iraq, but also a cell that was believed to be trying to break a Algerian-born terror suspect out of custody. There was never enough evidence to actually convict either of the brothers, even bring either of the brothers to trial in that. But that, they believe, is part of the linkage with this suspect in the shooting of the policewoman.