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New Day

ISIS-Inspired Attack on U.S. Capitol Thwarted; French Authorities Search for Accomplices; Interview with Sen. Angus King; Officer Breaks Down after Killing Unarmed Man

Aired January 15, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wednesday, Cornell purchased two M-15s and 600 rounds of ammunition from this gun store in Cincinnati before FBI agents arrested him in the parking lot.

WKRC obtained this image of his arrest from a customer inside a nearby store. The gun store owner, who had been cooperating with authorities, described Cornell's demeanor.

JOHN DEAN, POINT BLANK GUN STORE OWNER: There wasn't really anything about him that would have suggested he was involved in something like this.

FIELD: His parents, devastated and in shock.

ANGELA CARMEN, MOTHER OF CHRISTOPHER LEE CORNELL: I'm just heartbroken. I want to give him a big hug and bring him home, because he ain't out to hurt nobody.

JOHN CORNELL, CORNELL'S FATHER: He may have lost his way somewhere in there, but I believe he was really vulnerable; and I believe he was coerced in a lot of ways.

FIELD: John Cornell says that his son recently took up an interest in Islam but had never mentioned ISIS.

CORNELL: He explained the peaceful side of Islam to me, you know? And he never showed any, any signs of any, any kind of violence or anything. I mean quiet, shy, good kid.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (on camera): Cornell is facing some pretty serious charges, but law enforcement sources tell CNN that lawmakers were never in any real danger, because authorities were closely tracking his every move. Cornell will in court tomorrow for a detention hearing. A pretrial hearing will start next week -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: And an important distinction, Alexandra. Authorities say people weren't in danger because they were tracking him, not because he wasn't planning to do damage. Thank you for the reporting. We also have the latest on the Paris terror attacks. We're learning

new information about accomplices that may have aided the terrorists. John Berman live in Paris with more. Good morning, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Chris.

Developments coming in,, really, from all over Europe this morning, including word of an arrest in Belgium. In the town of Charlevoix, Belgian officials have arrested a man who they say bought a car from the girlfriend of Amedy Coulibaly, the woman, Hayat Boumeddiene. She is in Syria. She sold this man in Belgium a car. They searched this man's apartment, and they found ties, some documents, apparently, that tied that man to the weapons used by Amedy Coulibaly here in Paris.

So a possible connection to another suspect in Belgium. All that, Chris, as we were getting a new look at the terrifying moments inside the grocery store where Amedy Coulibaly killed four people.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN (voice-over): Chilling surveillance images from inside the kosher market in Paris captured terrorists Amedy Coulibaly, his three- hour siege that killed four people.

Coulibaly can be seen here, dressed in jeans and a T-shirt, wearing what appears to be a bulletproof vest. In the aisle, a child's abandoned stroller. Lying on the floor, two people he gunned down when he first burst in. The body closest to the camera believed to be that of an employee, Johan Cohen. He reportedly grabbed one of Coulibaly's guns, but it jammed. He was shot to death.

More than an hour into the standoff, Coulibaly ordered some hostages to disable security cameras in the building.

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: I think this person was trained. He was somewhat sophisticated.

BERMAN: As the investigation continues into how he obtained weapons, a French newspaper acquired a copy of a loan application. Coulibaly borrowed around $7,000 back in December. CNN has not independently confirmed the authenticity of these documents.

This as another French newspaper, "Le Parisien," claims that French authorities have identified an accomplice to Coulibaly. Police suspect the man may have been responsible for shooting and wounding a jogger in a park south of Paris last week. The ammunition used in that attack was the same found in one of Coulibaly's guns.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: This sort of lone wolf smaller attack gets much more difficult for law enforcement to follow. They're spread out. There's so many more of them.

BERMAN: Since the terror last week, more than 50 judicial proceedings have been opened in France for inciting terrorism and racist or anti- Semitic comments or actions. Many of these proceedings involve graffiti on mosques. This country remains on high alert as the funerals for the victims

killed in the attacks continue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is on his way here to Paris. He arrives in a few hours. He will be the highest-level U.S. official to come here since the attacks, of course. He faced a lot of criticism, along with the president for not being here at the unity rally last sundae. The secretary just said his goal when he comes to France later today and tomorrow is to give the people of France, Chris, a big hug.

CUOMO: And certainly it is needed, John, that's for sure. And what's going on there, reverberating back at home in the U.S. in many different ways. Thank you for the reporting.

Alisyn, over to you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, let's talk about it and bring in independent senator from Maine, Angus King, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and the intelligence committee -- committee. Senator, thanks for joining us this morning.

SEN. ANGUS KING (I), MAINE: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Let's start with the breaking news. This 20-year-old Ohio man was arrested for a plot that he said he was going to perpetrate on the U.S. Capitol. You and your colleagues were the targets. How seriously do you take a plot like this?

KING: Well, I think you have to take it seriously. You can't really tell whether this young man had the capability to pull this off.

But what you're seeing here, Alisyn, is a kind of a continuum from, you know, the elaborately planned 9/11 attacks, through what happened in Paris. And we're talking about all the links between the brothers in Paris and Coulibaly and AQAP in Yemen in those kinds of things. It was kind of loose coordination, some funding. And then you got the lone wolf. And each one has its own characteristics. And each one, they get progressively harder to predict and prevent.

It's really a break, a lot of cooperation between law enforcement, FBI, local law enforcement, sheriffs' office, local police out there in Cincinnati. That foiled what appears to be, at least you know, he was buying guns, and it at least appears to be some credible plot. But these are very difficult. And the lone wolf is the toughest of all. And I'm afraid that's the world we're in. We're just going to have to be -- be vigilant. That's -- that's the answer. There's no simple answer to this, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: And Senator, you're just touching on exactly what confounds the general public. It's impossible to know whether or not this is just an impressionable oddball who was aspirational and could never really have pulled it off. He was best friends with his pet cat, as we've learned. Or if this is a lone wolf, who then can hold people hostage and kill them in a grocery store. How do you ever figure out which one he was?

KING: Well, you know, we're going to go through a court proceeding to try to determine that to some extent. But you're absolutely right. But I'm not sure there's a bright-line distinction between an impressionable oddball who has M-15s and is trying to work out how to make pipe bombs. And a cold-blooded jihadist.

You know, there's -- there's a crossover there. How do you categorize the two brothers up in Boston, at the Boston Marathon? The point is, we live in, in dangerous times. On the other hand, the -- I think there -- I hate to use the term "good news." It's not really good news at all.

But for example, the two brothers in France were on the no-fly list. They would have had a very hard time getting over here. The guy in Cincinnati was caught at an early stage of his planned operation.

So it's not like we're defenseless, but it is something that is -- is going to be a constant kind of concern. And it, to me, Alisyn, it goes to a deeper question. And that is, how do we deal with this radical ideology that's driving young men particularly, into this kind of extremism, and we've got to talk about what we do to de-radicalize.

For example, there's -- these brothers, at least one of them, they think developed this radical ideology in prison, in Yemen. The British are now developing a program to de-radicalize or to anti- radicalize their prison system. And I think that's something. That's the kind of thing that we have to think about.

But we've got to go deeper than just police, FBI, CIA and military. We've got to talk about how do we stop this movement toward radicalization. Because otherwise, you know, this is going to be a 100-year war.

CAMEROTA: Not only that, we've also had another conversation happening here on NEW DAY this week. We've had a couple of your colleagues, two senators on, who say that we are doing sort of a half- hearted fight against ISIS, they believe, in the Middle East.

We've had Tom Cotton on and John McCain, who say that it's time to get serious about really truly stamping out ISIS or al Qaeda or whatever extremist group you want to talk about in Syria and Iraq. And that they believe that we need to actually have more U.S. soldiers on the ground there to do it. What are your thoughts on that?

KING: Well, I'm going to be seeing John McCain later today, and I know that we're going to be talking about this. But you know, we've been in the stamping out business for the last 12 or 13 years. And it hasn't worked all that well. I'm just not sure -- I just -- I don't agree.

I mean, I think part of the problem is the more we -- we, the U.S. and the west are active, and particularly, with troops on the ground, the more it becomes a recruiting tool for the extremists and the more of them that come. You remember the old story, when we were kids about the hydra, where you cut off one head and two grow back. So I agree that we've got to be diligent. And I supported the

president in the airstrikes. And in many ways we've slowed ISIS, if not stopped them in terms of their progress on -- in geography in Iraq.

But the next step of rooting them out, you know, door to door in Mosul, I don't think -- I think it would be a huge mistake to make those U.S. troops. No. 1, I don't think it would work. No. 2, I think it would backfire. No. 3, I don't think the American people are ready to undertake that. I'm just, I think it would be the wrong, the wrong move.

Because as I say, it's easy to say something like stamping out. But we found that it's harder. We thought al Qaeda was disabled. We've been taking out their leadership. All of a sudden here's this plot in France that was at least facilitated by al Qaeda, based in Yemen. Al Qaeda springing up in other parts of the world. We've got Boko Haram down in Nigeria. You know, there's this whole list of these -- these radical groups. We are not going to be able to take them out by killing them one at a time. It is simply not going to work.

And that's why I think we need to be talking about what is the basis of this ideology and dealing with the true weapons of mass destruction. The real weapons of mass destruction in the world today are unemployed 22-year-olds who fall for this radical ideology, and we've got to figure out how to counter that.

CAMEROTA: Senator Angus King, always great to have you on. Thanks so much for your perspective.

KING: Good to be with you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Let's go over to Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: We're talk to somebody about that very thing coming up a little later in our program. But right now, let's give you a look at more of your headlines at 11 minutes past the hour.

A major shakeup at the Secret Service. Four senior officials have been reassigned following a string of embarrassments and security lapses. The agency's interim director says change is necessary. A report last month from an independent panel described the Secret Service as insular and starved for leadership.

Five Yemeni inmates held at Guantanamo Bay have been transferred overseas. At least six years after the Pentagon cleared them for release. Four will go to Oman, one to Estonia. That leaves 122 prisoners at the facility in Cuba. This move has angered some members of Congress who argue Guantanamo is needed to detain terror suspects.

A pair of explosions filling a subway station in Chile with smoke. Officials believe two thieves blew up two ATMs and fled with the cash. No injuries or deaths are reported. Now, this is the second set of explosions to rattle Santiago's subway system in recent months. Back in September, anarchists apparently used a home-made bomb, injuring 14 people. They are up bright and early in Hollywood this morning. We're about

an hour away from one of the most anticipated events of the year. The announcement of the Academy Award nominations. Who will get that call to become a 2015 Oscar nominee? We're going to take you live to Los Angeles for the nominations announcement in our 8:30 a.m. half hour. A reminder for to you set your calendars. The 87th Academy Awards, Sunday, February 22.

CUOMO: Are you going to reach into your pockets and do a little wagering on this?

PEREIRA: Oh, no, no, I'm here to talk about who wins, who doesn't get nominated.

CAMEROTA: I haven't seen enough of the movies yet.

CUOMO: A little side bet.

CAMEROTA: I'm into it, but I just haven't seen the movies.

PEREIRA: Let's get through today and then we can discuss. How about that?

CUOMO: I sense a lot of hesitation. Either you're in or you're out. I'm in.

PEREIRA: I'll be in tomorrow.

CAMEROTA: All right. Meanwhile, there is some riveting video of a police officer who breaks down after killing an unarmed man in Montana. How do police officers make these split-second decisions? And how do they cope with the consequences? We're going to dig deeper on that.

CUOMO: Some familiar words in Washington: immigration showdown. Jus how hard will the new Republican Congress fight President Obama's executive actions? John King takes it on for you, on "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Every time we see it we agonize. When we hear an unarmed person shot by a police officer, often they die. We go right to the legal process about it, the racial aspects about it, the disparities.

But we often miss one of the key components: the experience of being a cop. Facing a life-or-death decision very often just with seconds to decide what to do.

There's newly released dash cam video that captures the shooting and death of an unarmed man by a Montana police officer, just last spring. We're going to ask you to put yourself in the officer's shoes when you watch this.

There's a warning about the video. We're not going to go too far with it. You're going to see just how difficult it is for an officer to deal with what happens on the job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRANT MORRISON, POLICE OFFICER: I'm going to shoot you. I will shoot you. Hands up!

CUOMO (voice-over): It only takes seconds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: hands up.

CUOMO: This is a Billing, Montana, police officer, Grant Morrison, making a traffic stop in April of last year. The entire incident recorded on his dash cam.

MORRISON: What are you doing? Why are you moving your hands around so much? You're making me nervous, man.

CUOMO: He's talking to 27-year-old Richard Ramirez, a suspect in a recent armed robbery.

MORRISON: Hands up. Hands on the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hands up. I'm going to shoot you. I will shoot you. Hands up!

CUOMO: In less than 30 seconds, Ramirez lies mortally wounded.

Moments after making the decision to pull the trigger, Officer Morrison breaks down. Ramirez was unarmed. But the officer later said he had no way of knowing.

MORRISON: I thought he was going to pull a gun on me.

CUOMO: And just last week, a coroner's jury ruled Officer Morrison's actions justified.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: So that's the back story of the situation, and you see what's making this so impressive for people is what the officer winds up doing afterwards.

Let's talk this with Dan Bongino. He's a former NYPD officer, Secret Service agent.

Dan, thank you for being with us. We often go into the justification, all right. They had a coroner's journey -- jury. They made their decision. When you watch this officer, what is it a window into about police life that we don't often see?

DAN BONGINO, FORMER NYPD POLICE OFFICER: Well, a couple of things, Chris, and the most important thing to take from -- what your viewers need to take from this is, there's always an information asymmetry when it comes to a police stop.

What I mean is, the people in the car, in that car, in any car, they know something the police officer doesn't. They know whether they're armed or unarmed, and they know their intentions. Now they also know about the police officer. They know the police officer is armed.

But the police officer approaching the car, which I've done many times, doesn't know any of that. So the responsibility is not with the police officer; it's with the people in the car to put their hands on the steering wheel, turn the interior lights on, roll down the windows and let the officer know, through that signaling, that they have no ill will and no intentions.

CUOMO: But people put it on the officer. You're the one who's trained. You're the one who gets the qualification in using the weapon. This is your job. You come up there. You're not supposed to be skittish. You're not supposed to be vulnerable to the kinds of reactions that the regular person would, because you're a cop. Is that fair?

BONGINO: No, you're not supposed to be skittish, but you're not supposed to be stupid, either. Chris, hands shoot. Eyeballs and feet don't. So if you're not willing to show me your hands like that officer in that scenario that we just showed there, and you've been arrested for armed robbery in the past, which is what I got from the video, when I did my research before coming here.

CUOMO: Yes.

BONGINO: Well, that says to me that why are you not willing to show me your hands? And you're making furtive movements and furtive gestures. You know, I don't want to second-guess him in that scenario. I don't know what I would have done. But the circumstances there certainly lead me to be suspicious of why he's doing what he's doing.

CUOMO: Well, look, in too many of these cases we see that there's, like, no exchange between the officer and the suspect or the victim, or whatever they become in that particular legal scenario. And then there's a shooting. Here, there's a lot of dialoguing going on. How does that factor in the analysis of justification?

BONGINO: Well, it says to me that the officer is doing his best to say, "Show me your hands. Show me those danger-presenting objects that are going to potentially manipulate a weapon." And he's doing his best to get him to do that.

No officer I know, Chris, or ever met in my 15-plus years in law enforcement was ever even mildly interested in being involved in some kind of a shoot-out. This isn't some heroic gesture as you can see by the reaction.

CUOMO: And you're not soldiers. You're not trained to kill. Police officers are trained to stop. I know you believe that. And I know that a lot of officers say that.

But you know, there are two other points here. The first is the humanity. Everybody's different, but when you see the pain, the anguish that this guy is going through, I know some of you are going to dismiss that and say what about him? What about the other person's family? You're right, you're right. The Ramirez family and how they feel and that they lost someone. There's no winners in this.

But is there fear every day? Is there pain of outcome that we don't often see because of the blue line or because it's often men involved or whatever?

BONGINO: That's a great point, Chris. And I'm glad you brought that up. You know, police officers, they're -- we're not military officers here. We're not trained to kill. They're trained to stop what's happening. There are no head shots to finish people off. This is not a war, it's a police public service. And there's a difference there.

And having -- I know a number of people in law enforcement and in the military who have been involved in shootings, both fatal and not fatal. And I can tell, Chris, from speaking to them, that they were changed people.

One in particular, the guy was never the same. He was involved in a nonfatal shooting, and the subject survived. But it -- you know, this isn't the kind of thing you just let go. It's not like having coffee with a friend. It's a life-changing event.

CUOMO: I have a lot of friends on the job and to a man they always -- and woman -- they always say, "Look, I just want to come home." And it's easy to think that that's being -- you know, exaggerating the point. But when you see things like this, it really hits home.

One bad fact: this is not the first time this officer was involved in the shooting of someone who wound up not having a weapon. The last time it was a B.B. gun. The officer shot that person, as well. They wound up dying from their wounds. What does that tell you? Is that bad luck or does that go to training or does that go to this particular officer's discretion?

BONGINO: Well, I can tell you, friends on the job -- because you use the term "on the job." And that's something only people who know cops say.

You know what, Chris? I don't know. It depends. You know, the precinct I was in with the New York City Police Department was very busy. It was the 7-5 precincts in East New York, Brooklyn. There were officers there who had been involved in multiple shootings. It was just a fact of them being in a busy area, rather than an area with a low crime rate.

So there's a lot that goes into it. And, you know, it's easy to chalk talk it after the fact. But I really don't know why he was involved in that. Having a B.B. gun, by the way, is -- you know, is a weapon. No one can tell it's a B.B gun from a distance.

CUOMO: And that's a huge problem. We have a huge problem with that, as well.

But this is something that just gives us another window into this scenario. You've got human beings on both sides of the equations, same types of vulnerabilities, as well.

Dan Bongino, thank you for very much the perspective. Appreciate it.

BONGINO: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. This is an evolving discussion. We see it way too often. And there's a lot that goes into it. So what do you think? What does this latest scenario tell you about what you perceive as a problem and maybe potential solutions? You can tweet us. You know how to get me, just @ChrisCuomo or you go to Facebook.com/Newday. Let us know -- Alisyn.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, Chris. Is there a Mitt Romney backlash? Rupert Murdoch weighs in on the 2016 race, and John King analyzes it all on "Inside Politics."

PEREIRA: ISIS released a shocking video showing a child apparently executing hostages. Horrifying, hard to comprehend. What about young Americans that get radicalized? Ahead, a former jihadist tells us about the warning signs we can watch for.

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