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All Parties Headed to Munich for Weekend Talks on Ukraine; Interview with Rep. Jim Himes; Jordan: 'This is Just the Beginning'; Is U.S. Strategy Against ISIS Working?

Aired February 06, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, good morning. You have this, you say the French and German leaders going to Moscow today.

And let me describe the stakes they are describing. They're talking about ending a war in Europe, stopping the horror on the ground. This is not some minor skirmish, a million miles away. They describe it in terms of a war in Europe, one that threatens not only Ukraine, but NATO and the rest of Europe.

The trouble is as they sit down in Moscow, they're going to be sitting across the table from the man, Russian President Vladimir Putin, who they blame for violating past agreements repeatedly, and they blame for escalating the violence on the ground, particularly in the last several days, sending in more Russian heavy weapons, more Russian troops. A small cease-fire in some of the worst-hit towns today to allow civilians to get out.

The trouble is -- the worry is that you have each of these small agreements, that the front line moves forward and that leaves more territory under Russian control.

Still unresolved at this point: will there be another round of pushing economic sanctions on Russia? Not yet. They want to talk first. And still no decision from the U.S. as to whether they're going to send weapons to Ukraine.

And I'll tell you, Alisyn and Chris, speaking to Ukrainian officials, they make it very clear in private and in public that they want and they need that military aid simply to defend their country.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Jim Sciutto, thanks for that. As we understand at this moment, Vice President Joe Biden is speaking in Europe. He says Russia cannot be allowed to redraw the map of Europe.

Let's get to Erin McLaughlin. She is in Moscow, where Vladimir Putin, Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande will talk in about two hours.

What do we know, Erin?

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Alisyn.

That's right. The stakes here in Moscow today are high. Russian President Vladimir Putin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and French President Francois Hollande set to meet in the coming hours. The talks aimed at ending the bloodshed in Eastern Ukraine.

Part of this new diplomatic push on the part of France and Germany to not only aim for a cease-fire, but also maintain the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

But the big question remains: Will this latest effort work? Especially when you consider that Russia shows no signs of backing down.

The defense ministry has announced new military drills to take place along the Russian/Ukrainian border right through February 14, alongside all of this diplomatic effort. We have heard from a spokesperson from the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, who has said that these talks are welcome. They're looking at these talks as a positive step.

Kremlin state media has reported, according to quoting the Kremlin, saying that they are still considering the details of this proposal, and they're remaining open to it.

Back to you.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Erin. To borrow a phrase, war is often old people talking and young people dying.

Let's get right to senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh, live in eastern Ukraine with the latest on the violence -- Nick.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Chris, here the violence has been escalating nonstop for a week. And the diplomatic round, frankly, is catching up with events on the ground. And I have to say that vague leaked ideas of the peace plan don't look like they're really going to have much truck here. The separatists increasingly confident, increasingly emboldened; and frankly, we're dealing with a de facto partition of this country, anyway.

Behind me is an office where Ukrainians can get a pass that will allow them in and out of the separatist-held areas. Now, they're very hard to come by. And at those borders, when you cross into separatist areas, it's Ukrainian border guards. So, so much of this conflict is already, it seems, hiving off the nets and perhaps letting Russia deal with that badly-shelled and lacking an infrastructure area.

But Debalst (ph) is a town people are mentioning earlier one. That is still being shelled, hopes for the humanitarian corridor. We were in that last weekend, and we saw the devastation happening there. And people fleeing out of that particular stage.

There are thousands who have lost their lives in this war. The violence is picking up. The separatists are militarily doing very well on the ground at this stage. And the peace talks, potentially in Moscow, will maybe see two sides of the table who have very different opinions about how this war can be wound down. And with that level of new confidence and equipment the separatists have, it's going to take an awful lot to slow down their advance here -- Michaela. MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Nick Paton Walsh reporting.

Thank you so much for that.

Meanwhile, Jordan vowing to hit ISIS with everything it has until those terrorists are wiped out. The campaign opened with a round of airstrikes against ISIS positions in Syria following the ISIS video, the horrifying video that showed Jordan's fighter pilot being burned alive.

Want to turn to Amman, Jordan; bring in Jomana Karadsheh with the very latest -- Jomana.

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, Jordan is naming its mission after the pilot, the fallen pilot calling it Mu'ath the martyr. Now, Jordan says that it's carried out a multitude of airstrikes against ISIS targets in unspecified locations in Syria. They say that they've hit training camps and also weapons and ammunition storage facilities that they say they've destroyed.

According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, they say at least ten militants were killed. This is an initial figure that they released. And ISIS also published photos of destruction.

We were in the home town of the pilot when this news was announced about this new mission, about these increased airstrikes. And at that point we saw fighter jets flying at a low altitude.

And according to the father of the pilot, this was not only a tribute to a fallen colleague. He was told by the king, King Abdullah, who visited him yesterday, to pay respects at that time, saying that these same fighter jets had just returned from carrying out those airstrikes, returning from mission. News that is really welcome. And he says that also the king promised that he will continue to bombard ISIS in what Jordan says is just the beginning of their retaliation -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Jomana, thank you so much for all of that background.

There's a lot of breaking news around the world this morning. So we want to bring in Congressman Jim Himes. He's a Democrat from Connecticut and a member of the House Intelligence Committee. Thanks so much for being on NEW DAY.

REP. JIM HIMES (D), CONNECTICUT: Happy to be here.

CAMEROTA: Great to see you. Let's start with what's going on in Ukraine.

Vice President Biden is speaking as we speak in Brussels right now. He just said, "Putin has ignored every agreement, including Minsk. Russia cannot be allowed to redraw the map of Europe." What can be done about what's going on in Ukraine?

HIMES: Well, I think as you probably know, the German and French leaders are meeting with Putin today. And I think they need to be very clear with him that, you know, things are bad already for him with oil where it is. Of course, the Russian economy is in a lot of trouble. He could get bogged down in a major way in Ukraine.

And so I think what the Germans and the French need to deliver is the argument that, if he doesn't stand down, he is going to see, and this is, of course, a key issue for Washington right now, he is going to see the introduction of lethal defensive aid to the Ukrainians. And he will start to bear a heavy cost in eastern Ukraine. Hopefully, that gives us the leverage, us collectively the leverage to get him to stand down.

CUOMO: Here's the rub: the sanctions are working, right? That's what we hear. That the economy is depressed, the ruble has trouble, he has trouble with the oligarchs. And yet, this situation has become his booster with his own people, right? "Look how we fight for our own. You know, look how we're doing the right thing against everybody else."

So how do you balance that where, in effect, Ukraine is helping him to deal with what is hurting him?

HIMES: Yes, look, what he needs is he needs a face-saving way out. Exactly. We've watched this guy for a very long time. Face is very important to him. So I think he needs to understand that his activities are going to become very expensive.

Now remember, you know, yes, his popularity is very high because of what has happened now. But if there is lethal aid introduced to Ukraine and, all of a sudden, Russian soldiers are being sent home -- now remember, they're denying there's even any Russian soldiers there. When they start getting killed and get -- start sending them home to their families in Russia, the sentiment towards Putin could change very quickly in Russia.

PEREIRA: Cease-fire, sanctions. We saw the cease-fire talks break down last fall. We know sanctions have already been imposed. What are our answers here? It seems there's so few left.

HIMES: Well, more sanctions and the threat of the introduction of lethal arms, right? To date as you know, the United States has not provided lethal arms to the Ukrainians. There's an argument about this.

Look, this is a sovereign nation that has been subject to an invasion, an invasion that Russia is lying about, an invasion that is killing civilians in the area. And you know, this isn't necessarily the end, right? Russia around its periphery has other countries that Putin, in a bid to try to, you know, increase his popularity domestically, might have designs on. So I think this is the time and the place to stop it. And of course, stopping it means giving the guy a face-saving way out.

CAMEROTA: Are your colleagues in Congress ready to send lethal aid weapons?

HIMES: Well, at this point, you know, we passed some time ago legislation which -- which would authorize lethal aid going to Ukraine. It is now a White House decision whether to do so or not. I think you will see, and my guess would be that in the Congress, particularly given this behavior lately from the Russians, that the Congress would be supportive.

CUOMO: What will you accept? Because we allowed Crimea -- just so we know. We lived through this movie once before, right? They went into Crimea. We said, "You can't go into Crimea." The west said, "You can't go there." You gave them Crimea. Will that happen again? Is there a line that you're willing to draw somewhere in the middle of that country?

HIMES: Well, I'm not sure we gave them Crimea. The question really was...

CUOMO: He took it.

HIMES: He took it, and the question was what would our response be? We put in sanctions, of course, that have been very damaging to the economy. Now, when you start sort of thinking that way, the question is, OK, do you introduce lethal aid? Again, I would support that.

Do you start thinking about actually direct military conflict?

We cannot forget in this, as badly as Putin is behaving, we cannot forget that we've got profound interests with him in Iran, in having him work with us to make sure the Iranians are not developing nuclear weapons. In Syria, where he holds a lot of the strings in Damascus and with Assad.

So my own point of view is let's hit the guy, but let's not hit him so hard that we start damaging these other efforts that we need him on our side for.

CAMEROTA: Let's move to what's going on with ISIS. Jordan, as you know, ramped up their attack on ISIS with airstrikes, but still, the United States is doing the lion's share. There's -- 80 percent of the airstrikes have come from the U.S., whereas only 20 percent -- I believe we have a graphic of this -- has been conducted by other members of the coalition.

Is it realistic to think that Jordan can do what it says it's going to do? They're saying, "This is our fight. We are at the forefront of this fight."

HIMES: Yes, well, I'll tell you it's good to hear them say that, and that has been true for a very long time. You know, people have now become -- have started to focus on Jordan because of the horrific event with their pilot.

Jordan has been side by side with the United States in a very important way for a long time. Covertly, overtly, helping us out.

And now they're important, not because they have a big military. Look, Jordan is a very poor country with a huge problem in terms of the Syrian refugees who are living there now. But they're important to us, because symbolically, this needs to be seen by the world and, in particular, the Arab world as a western and Arab effort against an appalling terrorist group. And of course, Jordan out front like this really helps us in -- in framing what's happening there as not, you know, the west versus Islam or anything else. But actually, you know, the civilized world up against some real monsters.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Jim Himes, thanks so much for coming in to NEW DAY.

HIMES: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Nice to see you.

CUOMO: All right. We have some more news for you. We're learning new information about what brought down TransAsia Airways Flight 235. An aviation official says the pilots had problems with both engines and that stall warnings went off five times, the first just seconds after takeoff.

Searchers are back in the river where the plane went down. They're still looking for eight people, obviously unaccounted for. So far, 35 people were killed, 15 survived.

PEREIRA: Jurors in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial will take a trip outside of the courtroom today. They'll be taken on a bus tour of key locations, including the industrial park where the body of victim Odin Lloyd was found. Also, to Lloyd's home. Jurors will also visit the home of the accused killer. The judge is ordering the removal of any items in Aaron Hernandez' home that were not there at the time of the alleged murder.

CAMEROTA: Listen to this story. A 6-year-old Missouri boy was forced to endure a four-hour staged kidnapping, because his family thought that he was being too nice to strangers. A family friend lured the boy into a truck, threatened him with a gun, tied him up and blind- folded him. The boy was taken unknowingly to his home, and a family member told him that he could be sold into sex slavery.

That friend, as well as the boy's mother, aunt and grandmother now face kidnapping and other felony charges. They told investigators they were trying to educate him. They believe they did nothing wrong.

PEREIRA: You don't even know how much this gets my goat. You know, so we went from a child being too nice, to a child that is now traumatized for the rest of his life.

CAMEROTA: Exactly. Right.

PEREIRA: So really?

CAMEROTA: Well, they are being charged. I mean, the good news is law enforcements and authorities figured out what they were doing.

PEREIRA: And is there anybody left in his family that hasn't gone completely bonkers?

CAMEROTA: Don't know.

PEREIRA: Because that is -- you know, they like to place children with a family member if they can. But...

CUOMO: Obviously the action's being taken, so it's in the right place, but to color myself Camerota for a second.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: Not unlike anti-vaccers, these are people who thought they were doing something to help their kid. They just wound up doing something the wrong way.

CAMEROTA: But this is based on nothing.

CUOMO: Kids get taken all the time.

PEREIRA: Goodness. All right. Sound off on that to Twitter. You can get to us there.

Let us talk about the snow. I'm saying it with a smile on my face, so that it doesn't hurt so much. The Northeast and the Midwest about to get hit with another round.

I learned that trick from you, Jennifer Gray. You give us this intense news of cold, yet you're very happy about it.

JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: I know. I'm happy because I'm warm for once, in the studio. I'm not standing out in it.

But yes, very cold across the east. We had that clipper system move through yesterday. It dumped a couple of inches of snow and very cold temperatures in its wake. Eight below in Boston is what it feels like this morning, 5 below in Portland. Even colder once you get into Vermont and northern Maine.

The next system is moving through late in the weekend. It's going to be a slow mover. So we're talking about snow from Saturday evening all the way through Tuesday.

When you can combine all of that, snowfall totals could be anywhere from one to two feet in upstate New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and portions of Maine. We could see eight to ten inches around Boston. New York City, unfortunately, you're once again on that line. You could see a little bit of a rain-snow mix. You could also see anywhere from two to four inches. Of course we do have some time to watch that before it hits.

If you're trying to escape the cold, head west. Warm out there. Denver, setting records. Could see temperatures in the low 70s later this afternoon.

We're also looking at very heavy rain across the Pacific Northwest and portions of California. This is a state that saw zero rain in January, and now they're seeing possible six to ten, maybe more as far as rain goes over the next couple of days -- guys.

CAMEROTA: OK. Got it, Jennifer, thanks so much. Well, as Jordan takes the fight to ISIS, new questions about America's

ISIS strategy. Hear why one security expert is convinced it will not work. That's next.

CUOMO: It was supposed to be a Republican revolution in Congress when the GOP won big in November, right? So what's with this early frustration setting into the GOP, despite the deep shade of red in the chamber? Guess who knows more about it and will tell you? John King on "Inside Politics."

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CUOMO: Jordan is ramping up its efforts against ISIS. Back here at home, lawmakers are debating whether the U.S.-led strategy to defeat ISIS is even effective and whether the White House has any strategy at all.

Let's bring in somebody who understands the situation and what needs to get done, Hilary Mann Leverett, the author of "Going to Tehran." She's also a former National Security Council member under both presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.

You know both teams and how they play this game, what works and what does not. So the question for you should be pretty simple. You know what they say they need to do. You have said from the beginning, you will not beat them down with arms. The fight must go further. Do you see signs we're moving in the right or wrong direction?

HILARY MANN LEVERETT, AUTHOR: I see no signs of improvement. I think this has been a bipartisan across-the-aisle failure. Failure not only to stop the growth of organizations like ISIS, but to actually contribute to their growth, their explosion on the scene in a way that really threatens the United States and, as we've discussed before, my real concern that we may be sowing the seeds for our next 9/11 attack even here in the United States.

CUOMO: All right. Now you can go back and forth all day with the hypotheticals about the existential threat to the U.S. I say we don't do that today, because it's not where the urgency is.

What I say we do is let's look at whose fight this is. The region, you talk about all these threats, they start in that part of the world. Not in the United States. You have cultural problems in that part of the world that aren't addressed by the sovereigns. You have Jordan saying, "It is our fight." Let's listen to their level of commitment from the foreign minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're upping the ante. We're going after them wherever they are, with everything that we have. But it's not the beginning, and it's certainly not the end. We're extremely fortunate to have friends and allies as part of a coalition. But we are at the forefront. This is our fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: What are we seeing? Are we seeing a sea change in one leader

in that region leading other Arabs and other sovereigns to get in? Or are we just seeing a people who are tapping into their tribal culture of one of their own was killed in a bad way, now they'll take their revenge, who knows for how long?

MANN LEVERETT: I think we're seeing a short-term interest in taking revenge. What we're seeing more long-term in terms of the trends, is the surge in recruitment that ISIS is able to galvanize from within Jordan.

There's strong support for ISIS within Jordan. Many people in ISIS are Jordanian, are Saudi. Thousands of Saudis have joined ISIS.

So these so-called allies that say that they're with us in a bombing campaign, are also providing both the foot soldiers and the money to continue to sustain ISIS' recruitment strategy.

But I want to also stress that this is not a problem that is inherent within the Muslim world or is a problem inherent within Islam. This is, in part, something that we have aggravated very seriously with our invasions in Iraq, Afghanistan, our decisions to overthrow governments in Libya and Syria, Which have destroyed Sunni political orders, opened the battlefield, and surged in tens of thousands of heavily trained, armed and financed Sunni militants that we do with our so- called allies.

So this is not something that we can just write off in terms of cultural problems within -- within the Muslim world.

CUOMO: OK. Help me get to that point. Because I understand what you're saying. But at the end of the day the people who are killing Muslims and say they want to kill us and everybody else who is not them, say they do it in the name of Islam. They are Muslim.

And they are being engendered in populations that we do not control, through disaffection and depression and lack of education and a lot of other things. So how does that wind up America's fault?

MANN LEVERETT: Well, where we see -- where we see this crisis, really ground zero for this crisis, has been Iraq. Which we did invade and occupy with 125,000 troops, $1 trillion, and eight years of occupation. That's where this incubated. The leaders of ISIS were in American jails in Iraq.

And then the -- the lid was taken off of this tinder box with Syria when we demanded that the government of Bashar al-Assad be overthrown; and we again injected tens of thousands of armed and financed fighters, between both us and our so-called allies, for example, the Saudis.

So this is not something that we see happening in other parts of the Muslim world that haven't been -- haven't been invade and occupied like this.

CUOMO: Right. MANN LEVERETT: So we can't really put a broad brush that this is a problem among Muslims. We have to really focus on what we're doing. And I think our most important thing, which a lesson we have not learned, it's simple: do no harm. You can't throw a bomb at every problem...

CUOMO: True.

MANN LEVERETT: ... and think that it's going to be fixed.

CUOMO: True, and that's why I use the word "region," not Islam. And again, you know I'm trying to use you to help inform a perspective that you know is wildly popular in the United States, whether or not it is shared by me.

So the last question is this: then what do we do? "Do no harm" is inaction. But obviously, you need action here. What is the balance? What are the moves?

MANN LEVERETT: Well, something that we're -- we're -- we've been loath to do since the end of the cold war when we became the world's biggest -- one and only superpower, and we basically thought we could militarily change and manage every situation around the globe, particularly in the Middle East.

We have to revert back to diplomacy, and conflict resolution. If we had real serious diplomacy and conflict resolution in Syria, in Libya, in Iraq, there would be, I think, a very different story to be told.

CUOMO: But not with DAISH, not with ISIS. You don't negotiate with them. We see where that's getting us.

MANN LEVERETT: Well, what I would do is not draw lines in terms of who we negotiate with, who we don't negotiate. We get down this slippery slope where we even contribute, then, for example, to the one model that had the chance to succeed for moderate, nonviolent Sunni Islam, and that was in Egypt with the Muslim brotherhood.

But we put our head in the sand there, and we refused to deal with them for years. They've now been overthrown, and the Sunni world is facing a cataclysm. Their moderate, nonviolent groups are deeply pushed underground, and we're left with just the violent remnants.

CUOMO: It is amazing how we always talk about how there are 1.6-plus billion Muslims in the world, and we're always saying that this is just a small slice of these extremists and jihadists; and yet, they're starting to have more and more influence.

Hilary Mann Leverett, thank you for the perspective. Good to have you back on NEW DAY.

MANN LEVERETT: Thank you very much.

CUOMO: Mick.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris. We'll turn to Ukraine, where there's conflict again. Why did the world allow violence in eastern Ukraine to grow over 12 months to the brink of all-out war?

CAMEROTA: And the snow in New Hampshire is frozen solid. But the state is a hotbed of political activity. John King gives us developments in the 2016 race. "Inside Politics" is next.

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