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Final Moment Aboard Doomed Flight; Gov. Pence: This is Not About Discrimination. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired March 30, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We have new information about what happened in the cockpit of Flight 9525.

Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz is heard on a cockpit voice recorder urging the pilot to use the bathroom. Captain Patrick Sonderheimer is then heard slamming on the cockpit door, begging the 27-year-old co-pilot to let him back in the cockpit. Lubitz we are able to suggest is ignoring repeated calls from air traffic controllers as an alarm sound warning of the plane's deadly descent.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: The crisis in Yemen may soon escalate into a ground conflict. Yemen's foreign minister says an Arab League grounds incursion could happen within days. Video has now emerged showing military trucks carrying tanks in Saudi Arabia, near Yemeni border. Saudi-led coalition warplanes conducting new strikes against Shiite Houthi rebels. The Arab coalition says its longer-term goal is to blunt Iran's growing influence in the region.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: New York City officials say two bodies found Sunday underneath the rubble of last Thursday's building explosion are believed to be the two men missing after the blast. Recovery teams pulling the remains from the scene in Manhattan's East Village. Officials investigating the possibility of criminal charges if someone tampered with the building's closed off gas lines leading to the deadly explosions.

CUOMO: You want a little chuckle going out the door? Dwayne Johnson resurrected his role as The Rock Obama on "Saturday Night Live." The scene features President Obama transforming into The Rock Obama losing his temper on Speaker John Boehner. Take a look at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THE ROCK: You invite Netanyahu without asking?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did. Yes.

THE ROCK: You like Israel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

THE ROCK: Oh, maybe you should go visit Israeli.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: The "SNL", look, I love Dwayne Johnson. The "SNL" skit also offered a new twist, First Lady Michelle Obama transforming into She Rock Obama, ripping the arms off, after being told a homeless person, I have been sleeping in the White House garden.

PEREIRA: The high five at the end.

CAMEROTA: Beating him with his own arm? That's another nice touch.

PEREIRA: I think we found his Achilles tendon.

CUOMO: Oh, man. I love The Rock. He passes the test. My kids love him. My wife loves him. I love him.

PEREIRA: All for very different reasons.

CUOMO: I hope so.

CAMEROTA: Great.

PEREIRA: All right. A little bit more news for you here now.

The governor of Indiana claims that his state's new religious freedom law is misunderstood. Opponents say the measure is going to allow the businesses to discriminate against gay customers on religious grounds. That new law already triggering a massive backlash. Governor Pence's latest to clarify it appear to be adding fuel to the fire.

CNN's Rosa Flores is live from Indianapolis this morning.

Tell us what you are hearing on the street there.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, good morning.

Indiana lawmakers expected to meet in the next few hours and make themselves available to reporters to discuss what clarifying this law actually means. However, let me tell you something, the governor over the weekend not mincing words, saying that, clarifying this law does not mean clearing it from the books.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: This is not about discrimination.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: Yes or no? If a florist in Indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in Indiana?

PENCE: George, this is where this debate has gone. STEPHANOPOULOS: Sir, yes or no?

PENCE: Well --

FLORES (voice-over): Governor Pence punting on the key question fueling debate over Indiana's Religious Freedom Restoration Act. His insistence that the bill is pro-religious freedom and not pro- discrimination, doing little to quiet the firestorm. Thousands over the weekend outraged.

PROTESTERS: Fix the bill, fix the bill!

FLORES: Concerned that the law could give businesses a license to discriminate based on religious grounds.

PENCE: It does not apply to disputes between individuals unless government action is involved.

FLORES: This shop in Lebanon makes custom products and supports it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it protects me from the government, forcing me to do something that's against my will.

Anybody is welcome in our business.

FLORES: Still, other business owners against it are taking a stand. Overnight, the CEO of Apple firing back in his "Washington Post" op- ed, writing, "On behalf of Apple, I'm standing up to oppose this new wave of legislation, wherever it emerges."

Indiana-based Angie's List now backing out of a $40 million expansion deal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This transaction is not palatable to us.

FLORES: And with the NCAA Final Four just days away, former NBA star and TNT analyst Charles Barkley slammed the law, saying, quote, "as long as anti-gay legislation exists in any state, I strongly believe big events such as the Final Four and Super Bowl should not be held in those states' cities."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[06:35:09] FLORES: Now, Indiana is not the only state who has passed such a law. There is actually 19 other states, so you are probably wondering why the outrage, why now? Why Indiana at this particular time?

Well, several legal experts from around the country have said that this law here in Indiana is broader than the others.

Back to you, guys.

CAMEROTA: OK. Rosa, we will be debating that later in the program. Thanks for all that background. We are learning more about the co-pilot of Flight 9525 and his

troubled past. Doctors judged him unfit to fly that day. Should they have informed his employer? We will debate privacy versus safety.

CUOMO: All right. And the reason we're going to be debating this new law that you're hearing about in Indiana, because it's not new. They're all over the country. There was a federal one before it. But there is more energy around it being anti-gay now. Is it fair? Indiana's governor says it's not fair. Hear why and then you decide.

(COMMRCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Could the crash of Flight 9525 have been prevented if a doctor had alerted the Germanwings airlines about the depression issues Andreas Lubitz was suffering from? It is a big question right now, as officials examine the changes in the wake of the crash. Should doctors be regard to say something to employers if they have concerns?

Justin Green is a private pilot. He's also the president of the International Air and Transportation Safety Bar Association.

Good to have you with us again. You have been doing a lot of heavy lifting for us. We really appreciate it.

You are a pilot.

JUSTIN GREEN, PRIVATE PILOT: Yes.

PEREIRA: You're a pilot. You know very well what it takes the stamina it requires, the training, the relationships you have to have in the cockpit. If a pilot or a co-pilot has depression issues, is that enough to say, you can't fly anymore in your estimation?

GREEN: No, I think what's really important to understand is we are not talking about just depression here and there is a huge difference --

PEREIRA: A big spectrum.

GREEN: No, I mean, a depressed pilot can fly. I mean, if it's minor depression. What's important is that the flight examiner actually is monitoring this depression. Flight examiner can't monitor something he or she doesn't know about.

PEREIRA: That's a very good point.

It used to be here in the United States, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that pilots who are suffering from depression couldn't fly at all. I believe that changed 2010-ish. Do you think that's helped or hurt the cause in terms of overall health and welfare?

GREEN: I think it's positive, because what -- you know, if a pilot has minor depression and goes and gets treatment for it, that pilot doesn't pose a danger most likely to the passengers. His or her ability to fly won't be compromised. PEREIRA: It won't?

GREEN: No.

PEREIRA: And that's the thing I want to get at. It won't be, because I think there is the fear of either retribution or the stigma affecting them, will people always look at that pilot who self reported a little askance?

GREEN: Well, I mean, what you said before about this spectrum -- there is a spectrum. You can have someone who with minor depression, who's getting treatment, who's being careful about it. That's just as good as any other pilot, or you could have a system where pilots have to hide their problems, they're not getting the treatment that they need. Those pilots are probably way worse off than a pilot who fesses up, the flight examiner is watching the pilot.

PEREIRA: In the current system that we have in the United States, is there any incentive to make sure this self reporting is done? You know what I mane, you don't want to have a disincentive to prevent them from doing it. Is there any incentive that is sort of helping them, you know, combat the fact that they need help and they node to get someone to assist them?

GREEN: Well, the opening up of the cockpit people who have some minor mental issues, even that is an incentive. But you also have to understand, this is a system based on self reporting, where there are so many incentives to the pilot not to self report and the problem, you know, we are talking about before, you guys were talking about, doctors informing the airline, doctors informing the FAA, a doctor who doesn't know the patient they are treating is a pilot isn't going to be able to report it. So if a pilot, in this case, this guy is hiding his condition. If a pilot goes to a doctor, doesn't tell the pilot, gets treatment for depression the doctor isn't going to know.

PEREIRA: But isn't that part of the conversation. Every doctor's appointment I have been to, they ask me what I do --

GREEN: Well, exactly. If you are going to lie to your employer and you are going to lie to your fellow pilots, you are going to lie to a doctor.

PEREIRA: Which is, in itself, a problem, because someone is, you know, deeply into the spectrum of some sort of mental health issues, the self reporting to me is a challenge, because are they going to be truthful? You know, they're trying to hide. They're trying to mask. They're trying to not necessarily be exposed because of the stigma we have in this country about mental illness.

GREEN: Also, that these people, this guy had wanted to be a pilot his entire life. Are you going to go to a doctor and get a treatment for a condition that might knock you out? The other thing I want to talk about here is this guys, it's really not just about a pilot who was working and developed a problem. This guy apparently had the problem.

PEREIRA: Right. GREEN: He wasn't screened out initially at the airlines.

PEREIRA: That's troubling to you?

GREEN: Yes, it's really, because I think it's one thing to have a pilot who has been 20 years with the airlines suddenly develops a problem as opposed to someone who should have never been let in the door. So, the gate-keeping is really important.

PEREIRA: You know, it's interesting -- over the weekend, one of the parents of someone killed in the crash had said in an emotional statement to our cameras, saying, you know, if there was a motive or a reason, we don't want to hear it. It is not relevant. He was obviously very emotional and very painful at the time. This man lost his son.

I heard people criticizing the media for saying, why are you looking into this? It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doest matter, it's not relevant. But the fact is, we need to change things so it doesn't happen again. What's the biggest thing you think that needs to change?

GREEN: I think it's the screening. In the Buffalo crash in 2009 the pilot came into the airline, didn't tell the airline about his prior failures as a pilot, and the airline didn't check.

[06:45:05] Here this guy comes in with probably some serious mental health issues and they really don't have a system to say, you know, how are we going to make sure this guy coming into the airline isn't a homicidal maniac.

PEREIRA: Justin Green, always a pleasure to have you. We'll be fleeing on you again this week. Thanks so much.

GREEN: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Chris?

CUOMO: All right, Mick.

The CEO of Apple slamming the state of Indiana, specifically the governor, for passing or signing a controversial new religious freedom law that critics say is anti-gay. Now, the governor says, that's not true. He's refusing to back down despite what is now a widespread series of boycotts. What's going to happen next? We'll take you through it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: Is tolerance a two-way street or not? This avalanche of intolerance has been poured on our state. It's just outrageous.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Indiana Governor Mike Pence is all about intolerance saying he wants to make eight more tolerant society for people who believe in certain religious principles.

[06:50:00] During an interview with George Stephanopoulos on Sunday, that's what you're watching, he says his state's new Restoration of the Religious Freedom Law is designed to prevent the government from infringing on personal religious beliefs.

Critics, they're not buying it. The opposition is growing.

CAMEROTA: Here to weigh in is CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Kevin Madden, and CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist, and senior adviser at Priorities USA Action, Paul Begala.

Great to see you guys. Good morning.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Kevin, let me start with you.

If you just substitute the word "black people" for "gay people," doesn't this all become much more clear? I mean, business owners are not allowed to refuse service to black people. Why can they refuse service to gay people?

MADDEN: Well, boy, look, I think this is a sort of misunderstood law in that sense. I haven't read it in that way and inserted different words in there and tried the look at it that way.

I think the main thing here is this was a bill it was a passed that was designed to allow people who believe that the government was infringing on their religious rights, to have a restoration of those rights.

And I think the main thing that the governor was trying to do out there was apply this compelling intra-standard for judges that were then reviewing those cases. One of the real big problems that Mike Pence has now and the folks out in Indiana have is that this has sort of gotten out of -- they've lost a narrative to allow the opposition groups. The opposition groups have more narrowly defined this around discrimination when I think the original intent here was to protect those that felt that their government, their religious rights were being infringed upon by government action.

CUOMO: Begala, respond.

BEGALA: Well, the law was originally intended, the original federal, two decades ago, the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, to protect individuals in a private religious view. It was created, for example to allow Native Americans to worship in a way they want to, to allow a faithful Muslim be a prison guard, even if he has a beard, which was against federal regulation. Now, what Governor Pence is moving it into the commercial realm. The Indiana law covers not just people but every kind of corporation you can imagine and it will allow those corporations to assert a defense.

It doesn't say you are free to discriminate. There has been some I think overblown reaction.

CAMEROTA: Uh-huh?

BEGALA: But it would allow them to assert a defense. That's where I think it was wrong. Indiana could fix this easily bypassing a non- discrimination law for LBGT Hoosiers. Just pass a law that says, look, we make it clear, you don't have to go in too deep --

CUOMO: He said he's not going to do that.

BEGALA: Right, because he wants to discriminate. That's the problem Governor Pence has. It's the only straight answer he gave Stephanopoulos yesterday was, no, he would not allow equal protection laws and anti-discrimination laws for gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgender Hoosiers, and that's his problem.

CAMEROTA: Paul, I want to stick with you for one second, because President Clinton is a person who passed this law back 20 years ago and you say that it was supposed to be protecting Native Americans, but President Clinton's words are sort of ambiguous. Let me read them to you when he passed it. He said, "There is great debate now about the extent to which people of faith can seek to do God's will as political actors. I would like to come down on the side of encouraging everybody to act what they believe is the right thing to do."

If you use his definition there, then business owners in Indiana -- you know, the illustration has been used who own say a bakery can't refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple.

BEGALA: Not at all. He was talking about people.

Again, if you want to wear a yamaka you can't get fired for that. And the government certainly can't fire you. If you want to grow a beard, that's a part of your religious expression. When you move into the commercial realm, things change. Then you cannot discriminate.

And that's why we not only need to protect people's private religious views. Look, private religious views are fine, you just can't act on them. I have been married for 25 years. Nobody with any sense would have supported my marriage, my wife was beautiful and educated and gainfully employed, I was none of the above. But they weren't free to discriminate against us, gays and lesbians should have that same right in Indiana.

CUOMO: Begala, you've never said anything to me that's made more sense than what I just heard in the analysis of the nuptials.

Madden, let me go back, because don't like thinking -- I feel bad for Begala's wife. Let me ask you something, Kevin.

MADDEN: Yes.

CUOMO: You said, you know, hey, this is about not allowing state action to interfere with a person's belief. Here's the problem with the illegal analysis. The state action winds up becoming a law on the books that protects gays. So even in Indiana, you have a lot of municipalities that have local laws that protect gays the way everybody else is protected under the Title 7 federal protective classes.

MADDEN: Right.

CUOMO: So you would see that as state action. Then that would trigger your ability to use this law to say, I don't want to treat, I don't want to do flowers for, I don't want to do whatever my business does for gays.

[06:55:02] That's the problem. Fair point?

MADDEN: Well, I think the compelling -- I'm not a lawyer. I know I'm on the air here with a couple of lawyers that will try and take that scenario to their advantage, but --

CUOMO: What reason?

That's state action. Having a law like would be state action.

MADDEN: Chris, I'm just trying to explain it.

CUOMO: Go ahead.

MADDEN: I think the compelling interest part of it and equal protection application of the law is where most people would say that would have a, an overarching effect on how people will interpret, whether or not they will discriminate. The state has an interest, a compelling interest in protecting against discrimination and, therefore, it could protect against any of that discrimination.

One of the interesting things is while we are having the debate about its narrow application, there hasn't been any judicial decisions in any of the other 19 states or 35 states that have similar versions of the law, where there has been a discrimination applied.

CUOMO: Right.

MADDEN: So I think that's -- again, this is one of the real big challenges that the folks have out in Indiana is trying to explain. That I think there are many legal scholars who said, look, one of the things you need to do when you pass a law like this, is offer more clarifying language. Beyond the 1990 act that was passed on the federal level and beyond, for example, President Barack Obama, when he was a state senator of Illinois, he voted for a very similar bill like this. BEGALA: He did, because nobody backed then anticipated that

businesses would claim that they have religious rights. That's where Hobby Lobby case is wrong. The Supreme Court, all of a sudden, decided that corporations can have a religion, which is preposterous. They are not endowed by their creator with inalienable rights.

CUOMO: Although back to Roman times, corporations, businesses, have been considered persons under the law. Certainly, the Supreme Court, federal courts, say the same thing.

You know, what I think politically here, because you guys are both political animals, really, I think the politician is having it both ways with people of faith. You want to make it feel like you're playing to the predominantly a Christian community, and given them what they want. And sometimes you get caught.

And this law is an example of getting caught and I think that's why Governor Pence is in a tough spot. That's why he wouldn't answer Georgia's very simple question.

Kevin, and if you advising him, you would have said that was a sticky wicket also.

MADDEN: I think it has more to do with the fact that we're going to constantly have -- and I think we have seen more of it lately as the federal government powers expanded with this president, we are seeing more and more people that push and pull back and forth between what is appropriate government interference, what is appropriate government overreach?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

MADDEN: And I think we're going to continue to see that, where people see their liberties continue to be infringed.

CAMEROTA: Kevin Madden, Paul Begala, we have to leave it there. We are going to continue to debate this obviously in the days to come, as well on the program today. Thanks so much, guys.

And let us know what you think. Is this law anti-gay? Is it discriminatory? Or is it misunderstood? Tweet us @newday, or go to Facebook.com/NewDay. We'll read your comments and we will be debating it later in the program as well.

CUOMO: This is a big story for us, because it's really about who we are as a people as we continue to develop. One big story. A lot of news this morning, so let's get right to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds to me as though who is flying the airplane?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So inexperienced, he would not be sitting in that seat in a U.S. carrier.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It happened, they heard passengers screaming, "For God's sake, open the door."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why was the pilot described as anti-psychotic and anti-depressants?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fresh airstrikes rocked Yemen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is unprecedented.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tens of thousands of Arabic troops on the ground to be deployed within days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a mistake to sign this law?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simply adding sexual orientation as a sexual class.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will not push for that.

PROTESTERS: No faith in our state.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to your NEW DAY.

Developing this morning, there are tragic details in the tragic crash of Flight 9525. The pilot heard on the cockpit voice recorder begging to be let back into the cockpit. The co-pilot Andreas Lubitz ignoring his calls as well as calls from air traffic controls as alarm sounds warned of the plane's deadly descent.

CUOMO: And now, video is emerging of him as a teenager, the question remain, how did he change? How did he go down this path? What was this illness? Was it mental illness? Because we all know the result: 149 lives taken because of what was going on with him.

We have this story covered as only CNN can do it.

We begin with senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen live in Cologne, Germany.

Fred, what is the latest?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris, of course, everybody is talking about the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder that was released by a German newspaper called "The Bild" newspaper. We have no way of verifying whether or not it is authentic. But it does give a chilling picture for the moment leading up to that awful crash.

Let's have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Over the weekend, disturbing few details from Flight 9525's mangled cockpit voice recorder published by German newspaper "Bild".