Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Bid Hurdles Remain in Iran Nuclear Talks; Officials Deny Reports of Plane Crash Video; Arkansas Religious Freedom Bill Sparks Protest; Interview with State Rep. Robert Ballinger of Arkansas . Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired April 01, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: They went into overdrive last night, past the 12:00 a.m. deadline, working throughout the night. But even this morning the British foreign minister said key differences unresolved. We've been talking about them all week, related to U.N. sanctions, related to the amount of advanced nuclear research Iran could do, the Iranian enrichment program.

[07:00:13] The -- there's been a lot of progress in these talks, certainly, over the last 18 months and even negotiators say even more progress in the last week or so than they have been all along.

But these key issues are so important to the agreement that would make even a comprehensive agreement in June even more difficult. And so now we're understand maybe just a press statement about the progress.

So I think it's going to be an agreement to keep talking. Whether that's going to be enough for Congress, when President Obama tries to talk to them about what's been achieved or hasn't been achieved at these talks, is very unclear, Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Elise, it sounds like things are happening by the minute and certainly might come out this hour, so please keep us posted. We will check back with you.

So much riding on these negotiations for President Obama. He had a late-night call with members of his national security team as the deadline came and went. So let's bring in CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta with more. What do we know, Jim?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, the White House is adamant that President Obama is not going to accept a bad deal with Iran.

Last night as you said, the president held a video conference call with his national security team and with Secretary of State John Kerry and Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz. There they are up on the big screen there in the situation room. They're leading the U.S. side of the talks in Switzerland, obviously.

And at this point, administration officials are telling me they cannot say whether or not they will reach a breakthrough at these negotiations. The one thing that White House press secretary Josh Earnest made clear to reporters yesterday is that the U.S. is prepared to walk away from these talks. He said that the option of military action against Iran remains on the table, should these talks fail.

Now there's obviously a lot at stake for Secretary Kerry. But also for the president. After the talks missed this deadline yesterday, the Republican National Committee put out a statement saying the president had crossed another red line. So if you think that the Republicans were going do give the president a break if these talks failed, you can guess again on that one.

Back to you.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Jim. And there is a lot of guessing going on here, right? Because there's a lot of politics, and we're not at the table. So how do you know what's going on? You have to talk to somebody who's been at the table, who understands how these processes go, and has insight into this one. And we have that man for you: Aaron David Miller. He's a distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center and has advised several secretaries of state on the Arab/Israeli peace process.

Good to have you with us as always. So we hear that people are walking away from the table. There's still big ideas that have not been agreed upon. The timeline, that was always self-imposed. But the real timeline is how long can the president hold off Congress. So what are the tactics at play here as you see it?

AARON DAVID MILLER, WOODROW WILSON INTERNATIONAL CENTER: You know, I think the structure of the negotiating process really only allowed three options. Breakthrough, which you're clearly not going to get today. That is to say, a six- to ten-page document that really does produce a political framework agreement with all the requirements it needs on both sides to create a compelling sense that this process is actually succeeding. Probably not.

Then there's breakdown. A collapse of the negotiations, a walk-away amidst acrimony, and a fundamental split and break, that these negotiations simply have not been credible and they're not going to produce. The gaps are too wide. I don't think that's going to happen, either. Negotiators fall in love with their negotiations. I know a lot about that from the Arab/Israeli negotiation. The president wants this to succeed. He's certainly not ready to give up. And I suspect either are the mullahs and certainly Rouhani and Jerif [SIC] -- Zarif.

And then finally, there's muddle-through, which frankly, I would argue is what the negotiations almost guaranteed from the beginning. It's not the June 30 agreement. The Iranians have always said they don't want two deals, just one. The Americans are under pressure, to be sure, from Congress. But even then, if they can demonstrate that, in effect through, through written understandings, through classified briefings that, in effect, the Iranians are actually seriously moving toward a smaller, slower, more transparent, more easily verified nuclear -- civilian nuclear program, I suspect the beat will go on. And there will be more process than agreement. But...

CUOMO: But...

MILLER: No breakthrough in the sense that a normal human being, Chris, like me and you, would understand the term.

CUOMO: But the political pressure and the definition of success for Obama and for Rouhani or, you know, for Iran and the U.S. are different. If there isn't a real deal here that Obama can celebrate, the president, he loses.

But if Iran walks away from the table with very little, how do they lose? They have plenty of oil money. They've built up all these centrifuges and have an economy under sanctions. They've got their hand in every situation they want it in around the world. I mean, it seems a little lopsided here, doesn't it?

MILLER: Well, there is a certain asymmetry. The Iranian expectations on the streets are high. And there's a real sense among the public that they want this deal, that it's somehow going to lead to an improved economy, more immigration to the rest of the world. So the mullahs have to consider the disappointment if, in fact, there's no deal.

[07:05:19] But on balance, I think you're right. Look, I said yesterday, we measure our lives in terms of four- to eight-year increments. This president has got a year plus, left on the presidential clock. In that region, they don't measure their timeframes in terms of administrations. It's a decade or a generation.

So in that respect, I think you're right. There's an asymmetrical time pressure here, and we -- we, clearly, are more in a hurry, which is one of the reasons critics of the deal fear that all this urgency is going to create concessions that will come back to haunt the American negotiating position.

CUOMO: So the Israeli prime minister is expected to come out and give a statement about this. That is going to work somewhat in concert with the Republicans in Congress and some Democrats, pushing for sanctions.

What happens if these talks break down and Congress moves ahead with locking down more sanctions on Iran with the benefit of support from the Israeli prime minister saying, "And this is the right thing to do for us, as well as your greatest ally in the region"?

MILLER: And the Saudis and the Emiratis. I mean, if it really gets serious and you end up with a fundamental split, additional sanctions, more political pressure, the mullahs won't respond to that. Clearly, they won't.

Then you're going to see a different kind of process. You're going to see drift and deterioration. Whether Iran will accelerate their program and risk the possibility of military action is unclear.

Somewhere along the line over the course of the next 18 months, you're going to end up with a crisis, and I suspect it's the one the administration wanted to avoid, a preemptive Israeli military strike. And to try to make an American strike unnecessary. Falling markets, rising oil prices, attacks on American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe a dust-up along the Israeli/Lebanese border. This is the Pandora's box out of which all the negative arguments the administration makes will emerge if we can't get some sort of an agreement.

And I wouldn't rule it out. I'm just suggesting at this stage, unless you get a compelling document that convinces normal people that there have been substantive concessions and a framework to rule out Iran's quest for a nuclear weapon, both through plutonium and uranium processes, verification and monitoring, then this has been more process than results. And at the end of the day, we're going to feel as if we've been diddled and snookered by the Iranians. There's no other explanation, it seems to me.

One last point: If Congress does, in fact, scuttle this, the down side is going to be that the sanctions partners could conceivably walk away and, instead of putting the onus on where it belongs, Tehran's unreasonable demands, the trope and the narrative is going to be that the American side screwed this up. And you definitely don't want that in these dueling narratives in the region right now.

CUOMO: Aaron David Miller, thank you very much for the perspective. We'll see how it plays back and come -- come back to you. Thank you very much -- Mick.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Chris.

Some big developments and details overnight in the crash of Flight 9525. Officials are denying reports that cell-phone video exists from inside the plane in those final moments before the jet crashed into the French Alps. Also, Lufthansa says now it knew that the co-pilot suffered from severe depression before he finished training.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Frederik Pleitgen, following all the developments for us live from Cologne, Germany -- Frederik.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Michaela. Yes, certainly, there's a lot of new developments that happened here overnight. And of course, that video is at the center of all of it.

The two publications that put forward the report that they say is based on having watched that video say that they verified it. However, as you mentioned, the French are saying that these reports are untrue, and now they're also demanding to see the video. They say that so far, no videos have been used in the investigation, and if anybody has any, they need to come forward immediately.

Let's have a look at what these publications say they saw on that cell-phone video.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN (voice-over): A chilling discovery purportedly pulled from the wreckage of Germanwings Flight 9525. Cell-phone video shot from inside the cabin, purportedly captures the chaos and horror of the final moments before the crash.

French magazine "Paris Match" and German newspaper "Bild" say they've seen the video, recovered from a memory card by an investigator, though a French official says the reports are, quote, "completely wrong" and "unwarranted."

The publications say from watching the video, it's disturbingly clear the passengers knew what was about to happen.

[07:10:11] JULIAN REICHELT, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, BILD: It's very shaky. It's -- it's very chaotic. But there are some things that are very much in line with what we know about the investigation so far.

PLEITGEN: According to "Bild" and "Paris Match," as the plane descends, screams can be heard, with cries of "my God" in several languages.

Metallic bangs can be heard more than three times, which they believe is the captain trying to break his way back into the cockpit with a heavy object.

Towards the end, a heavy shake, reports say, as the cabin abruptly jerks, presumably as the plane's right wing scrapes a mountain. The screams intensify, then silence.

Lufthansa's CEO visiting the crash site this morning to pay his respects. This just a day after the stunning revelation that Lufthansa knew Andreas Lubitz had a history of psychological problems before he deliberately crashed the jet. In 2009, Lubitz told his flight training school he suffered from, quote, "a previous episode of severe depression."

JIM PHILIPS, GERMAN PILOTS ASSOCIATION: If they withheld information intentionally, that's not good.

PLEITGEN: Lufthansa says Lubitz provided that information in medical documents he submitted to resume flight training. After taking a break for several months, he was cleared to fly shortly after.

CARSTEN SPOHR, CEO, LUFTHANSA: All the safety nets we are so proud of here, have not worked in this case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PLEITGEN: And, guys, when the Lufthansa CEO, Carsten Spohr, was at the crash site today, he once again thanked the recovery crews. He also once again apologized for the air crash, and he guaranteed that Lufthansa would continue to help the victims' families as long as possible.

He was, of course, also asked about that information, that Lubitz, in fact, had put forward to the company's flight training school that he had been suffering from depression. However, Carsten Spohr refused to answer that question, Alisyn. CAMEROTA: That would be helpful if he were to answer that. Fred,

thanks so much for the update.

Some other headlines for you now, because today the state of Arkansas may pass a religious freedom bill just like the one causing outrage in Indiana. The Arkansas general assembly passed a measure Tuesday. The state's Republican governor, Asa Hutchinson, pledged to sign it. However, he is expected to announce his final decision later this morning.

Meanwhile, Indiana Governor Mike Pence ordering a new bill to amend his state's new law to make it clear that the measure does not permit discrimination against gays and lesbians.

CUOMO: A House panel investigating recent Secret Service lapses wants to talk to two agents very badly. The two who were on the scene when two other agents allegedly drove drunk through an active bomb threat investigation near the White House. The House panel has subpoenaed them. This comes after Secret Service director Joe Clancy refused to make them available to testify.

PEREIRA: Google getting a bit of a jump start on April Fool's day with a blog posting from Google Australia, warning that their map engineers have discovered the earth's tilt is changing, so much so fast that Aussies down under could be up north within decades. They even had a scientist explain exactly what's happening. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are looking to have the equator slip as far south as the tip of Cape York, the northern-most part of Australia, by the year 2055. And that, I think, is really the phenomenal part of this story. Because it looks like -- it looks like Australia could become a Northern Hemisphere country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: And April Fools, apparently, this was one of more than a dozen Google April Fool's pranks posted worldwide. Be on the lookout. Be suspicious, people. There's pranksters among us.

CUOMO: Are you one?

PEREIRA: I had -- didn't I send you an email about perpetrating something on you.

CAMEROTA: You did.

CUOMO: Why me? Why am I always the...

PEREIRA: Because you're a great target.

I was going to post it in your office. I had all sorts of thoughts. And then...

CUOMO: Are you a prankster, too? CAMEROTA: No. I'm not normally a prankster. In fact, I keep forgetting today is April Fool's Day, so I think I'm actually going to be a victim of a prank, because I keep forgetting about it.

CUOMO: How do you tolerate pranks?

CAMEROTA: Not well.

PEREIRA: She loves it. Oh, really?

CUOMO: Really? Good to know.

PEREIRA: Reassess. Reassess.

CAMEROTA: Yes, all right. We'll see what happens later in the program.

Meanwhile, there is outrage in Arkansas this morning. Protesters demanding the governor veto a bill that is very similar to the controversial religious freedom law in Indiana we've been speaking so much about. So we'll talk to the lawmaker behind the Arkansas bill next.

CUOMO: And Hillary Clinton, trying to climb out from these email woes, may announce her bid for the White House this month. But the timing of a House hearing could be designed to complicate things. How? What? When? John King will explain on "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:18:21] CAMEROTA: Lawmakers in Arkansas, defying the public outcry over Indiana's religious freedom bill, just approved a bill that is almost exactly the same as Indiana's, but it has not gotten a lot of attention. If Governor Asa Hutchinson signs it today, Arkansas becomes the 21st state with such a law.

Joining us is the lawmaker who proposed the Arkansas bill, Republican State Representative Robert Ballinger.

Mr. Ballinger, thanks for being on NEW DAY.

ROBERT BALLINGER, ARKANSAS STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you. It's nice -- nice to have the opportunity to be with you.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about your intention in crafting this initiative that you did. Where did you see religious freedom being squelched? Why was a bill like this necessary?

BALLINGER: Well, it became necessary, actually, way back in 1990, when the Supreme Court basically reduced the standard from a heightened scrutiny down to intermediate scrutiny. So it's been necessary for a long time. And in fact, everyone at one time kind of agreed that it was necessary. That's why in '93 you get the federal RFRA signed by Bill Clinton, carried (ph) by Chuck Schumer and...

CAMEROTA: Well, sure. I mean, I hate to interrupt you, but people say that this law that you proposed actually goes further than that 1993. And let me just put up on the screen so people know what we're talking about. About how different the bill that you proposed is from the federal law.

They say that in your bill, rights extend to for-profit corporations. As you know, the 1993 law was about religious minorities that -- say, Native American who wanted to use peyote.

They -- No. 2, your bill applies when a person's religious freedom is likely to be burdened. They say that that is much broader than what the federal law does.

And No. 3, it extends to proceedings between private parties. So it's not about government overreach. It's about, say, a private proprietor or business owner who wants to refuse service if they're not comfortable. So explain how yours is different.

[07:20:18] BALLINGER: What I would -- yes, sure. Sure, I'd be happy to. I mean, essentially, just like the Constitution is interpreted by the Supreme Court, so are laws. And with RFRA, very clearly, they said that the federal RFRA does apply to private corporations. That's where you get the Hobby Lobby decision.

And so what we've done is just take the RFRA and the additional information that has been collected over the years, and just put that in there. So substantially, it is the same. Substantially, it is a strict scrutiny standard. And that's what's established by this and established by the 21 other states that have state RFRAs, and the federal government. And several other states through their Constitution or through their Supreme Court, has interpreted a strict scrutiny standard. So essentially, the law is the same. There may be little peripheral things that are different. For the most part, it's the same thing.

CAMEROTA: When you say RFRA, of course, you mean the Religious Freedom and Reformation Act. There are unintended consequences of your bill. So while you may have felt that you were protecting the rights of people to express their religion freely, there are businesses in Arkansas, in fact the largest employers in Arkansas, Wal-Mart, and Axiom, which is a Little Rock-based technology firm that employs almost 1,800 people. They don't like this bill that you propose.

Let me read to you a quote from the CEO of Axiom. He says, "We are not alone in the belief that the bill is a deliberate vehicle for enabling discrimination against the LGBT community, and should not become law, as it effectively reestablishes that shameful period before civil rights, when some used religious beliefs as a thinly- veiled justification for discrimination against our fellow citizens."

He's saying it's a deliberate vehicle for discrimination. What's your response?

BALLINGER: Yes, that's a pretty -- that's a pretty strong statement for somebody who's not been in my mind or in the mind of many other people. This bill has been around or this type of law has been around since basically '97, when the Supreme Court said if states want a RFRA they'll have to put forth their own RFRAs. And people have been working on this in Arkansas way before actually even I came around.

So I think that -- I think he's wrong. But that's OK: People have a right to be wrong. Yet, there's a lot of passion. They don't want to see the bill passed. And so there -- I think that a lot of times people are getting the cart out before the horse. And they just don't really realize what this is. I mean, this is really a relatively minor increase in protection for what a person believes. And for the most part, everyone believes that an individual should be carry able to carry out their beliefs the way they want without government interference, which is what this bill does.

CAMEROTA: I mean, beyond philosophy, just on a practical note, it can't be good to alienate your state's biggest employers.

Let me tell you what Wal-Mart says. Here's what Wal-Mart feels about your bill: "Today's passage of HB 1228 threatens to undermine the spirit of inclusion present throughout the state of Arkansas and does not reflect the values we proudly uphold. For these reasons we are asking Governor Hutchinson to veto this legislation."

Is it possible that your bill goes too far and that, for whatever reason, it's being misinterpreted; and it's actually counterproductive to what you were trying to do?

BALLINGER: You have two questions. Whether it goes too far, the answer is no. Is it being misinterpreted? Absolutely it is. But that's -- you know, we have a little bit of kind of a fight going on within our family here in Arkansas that is -- you know, there's a discussion and debate that's going on.

And in the end, what happens when the dust settles and people realize that this is the same as the law is in 31 other states, that this is the same as the -- as the law is under the federal RFRA within the federal government. And in the end all this is going to -- people realize that it's not nearly the significant change that they expected it to be. And people will go on and join each other here in Arkansas.

CAMEROTA: Well, Governor Hutchinson has to decide today whether or not he's going to sign it. Given all of the blow-back and controversy, what do you think is going to happen?

BALLINGER: Well, he said repeatedly that he intends to sign the bill if it came to him in the form that it was, that he's going to sign it. So at this point, I mean, I would have to say that I'm taking him at his word that he's going to sign it. I don't -- I don't have any other indication that he wouldn't.

CAMEROTA: State Rep Robert Bollinger, thanks so much for being on and explaining your perspective on the bill.

BALLINGER: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: In the next hour we will talk about Indiana's controversial law with state lawmakers from both sides of the aisle, so stick around for that.

And please let us know what you think about all this, the Arkansas and Indiana bill. You can tweet us, @NewDay, or go to Facebook.com/NewDay. We try to read all your comments.

Let's go to Chris.

CUOMO: Of course, this issue is going to bleed into the race for president, in the 2016 hopefuls, who for these religious -- you know, these controversial things are going on. How are they going to deal with it? Are they going to deal with it? Against? For? All these roads to the White House are going to lead through Indiana, and John King will explain why on "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:29:07] CUOMO: We have new information for you on the Iran talks. One of Iran's lead negotiators tells Iranian state TV there will be no deal today, even after talks were extended past last night's deadline. Now it's unclear whether talks will keep going past this deadline, indefinitely, or if everybody is going to step back and try to regroup.

CAMEROTA: And developing overnight, Lufthansa saying it knew that the co-pilot, Andreas Lubitz, suffered from severe bouts of depression. The 27-year-old apparently came clean to officials while he was training back in 2009.

Meanwhile, police are denying cell-phone video exists of the frightening final moments inside Flight 9525 before it crashed into the French Alps. Reports claim that you can hear banging, people screaming and then complete silence.

PEREIRA: A day after introducing him, Comedy Central is now defending their choice for new host of "The Daily Show." Trevor Noah coming under fire for some jokes that he tweeted about in the past about Jews and overweight women.

OK. Here's one of the biggest offenders. I feel a little weird actually reading one of the jokes that he's getting lambasted for. Quote, "Almost bumped a Jewish kid crossing the road. He didn't look before crossing, but I still would have felt so bad in my German car."