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Baltimore Spirals Into Chaos; Supreme Court to Hear Same-Sex Marriage Case. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired April 28, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:32:33] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We are following breaking news in Baltimore. The city at its worst on the day reserved for the burial of Freddie Gray. That's what it was like here last night -- rioters looting stores, setting fires, attacking police, 15 officers injured, 27 arrests.

The governor of Maryland late to the game but declaring a state of emergency, calling in the National Guard, 5,000 police reinforcements summoned from nearby states. Schools today closed in Baltimore hoping to let cooler heads prevail. There's also a curfew 10:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m. It will start tonight.

The question of course, Alisyn, is whether or not they can enforce that curfew and how.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely, Chris. We'll be back with you in a second.

Baltimore City leadership is taking heat, as Chris just said for the riots spiraling out of control. Was the city unprepared?

Let's bring in retired NYPD detective Harry Houck, and Marc Lamont Hill, he's our CNN political commentator and host of "Huff Post Live".

Gentlemen, great to see you.

Harry, I want to start with you. Are police in control of Baltimore today?

HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: No.

CAMEROTA: Why not?

HOUCK: You can clearly see last night -- one of the indicators here is you've got 27 arrests. We should have probably close to 50, maybe 100 arrests. That goes to show you that the police weren't going out there after the perpetrators. I mean, I've seen several instances where the police lined up and the thugs lined up and they were throwing things at the police, they would go forward and then they would come back. All they would do was chase them.

They didn't have any arrest teams that went out after these people. You had incidents where a garbage can was on fire thrown at the police and they didn't go after this guy, you know?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: I'm curious because one of the things they're talking about is that this started, a series of text messages, the word spread via social media. What is law enforcement doing to counteract that? Not just about putting on riot gear, going down and standing in a line arms linked against the protesters but also in terms of policing of another nature, because the game has changed now. It's the protesters --

HOUCK: Let's not call them protesters.

PEREIRA: OK, what do you call them?

HOUCK: What we've seen the last couple of nights isn't protesters. Those are thugs. Those are thugs.

If you're burning down property, all right, if you're destroying vehicles, all right, and if you're throwing things at the police, you're a thug. OK?

CAMEROTA: Marc, do you think that the mayor was too hands-off and that she should have sent out the message to activate more police sooner?

[06:35:03] MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it's a very, very tricky tight rope to walk. We saw in Ferguson the exact opposite, right? They told police to come out police were in full force.

In fact, we saw maybe one of the strongest shows of force in such a small town in recent memory and it didn't do anything but further militarized the space, further antagonize a community and create the very thing they were trying to prevent.

So, I don't think there's an easy solution to say we'll put more police out there, or to Harry's point that we can arrest our way out of this problem, we only arrested 27 people, what if we had 2,700 people arrested -- you know, I'm not sure that works either.

HOUCK: We wouldn't have the riot that we had last night. You had police officers out there -- you know, you keep on hearing about this thin line that they've got to cross.

There's no thin line here. There's breaking the law, all right? And then there's peacefully demonstrating. OK?

Once you break the law, and what happened is once you start letting this go on the first day, all right, thugs, OK, listen, cops aren't doing anything, come out a second day, come out a third day. This is where it got to where it is today.

CAMEROTA: Harry, hold on, I want to challenge you -- hold on, one second, Marc, I want to challenge you because you think the mayor let this go. You think she somehow gave free rein to the protesters to escalate. She says people like you are taking her words out of context.

HOUCK: Oh, sure.

CAMEROTA: Let's play her words for our viewers and then try to parse them. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, BALTIMORE: It's a very delicate balancing act. Because while we try to make sure that they were protected from the cars and the other things that were going on, we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: She's saying she inadvertently that what happens when you allow room for freedom of speech, an unfortunate by-product is people take advantage of it. That's what she's saying. Not that she gave permission.

HOUCK: That's not what she meant. I think it's pretty clear what she said. She gave the people to destroy property room to do it. She said it.

Come on. I got it right here. We gave those who wish to destroy space to do that as well, Marc.

CAMEROTA: She says before that it's a very delicate balancing act because -- basically she's saying that while that was going on, she didn't say accidentally, but I think she meant gave space for those people to do that as well, unfortunately.

HOUCK: Can't give space to commit crimes out there.

HILL: No, no --

HOUCK: I'm sure his would not have happened in the mayor's neighborhood. I'll tell you what there would have been probably 1,000 arrests if this happened in the neighbor's mayorhood.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let me just respond. What I'm saying is, I think it's sort of implausible that the mayor would publicly state or even implicitly suggests that she wanted people in Baltimore to destroy her city. It's under her watch. She's responsible. She's under that natural scrutiny.

Let's assume for a minute that she had no moral ethical compass, I don't believe that. I think she's a very fine woman who's doing a very tough job right now.

But even if she had no moral compass at all, even if she didn't care about the city she grew up and loves, and clearly is committed to, even if none of that were true, it makes her look bad. It hurts her professional standing. The truth is she wanted to create space for protesters so we wouldn't have another Ferguson, which was a military state, that completely occupied Ferguson and squelch dissent. She was saying I want to create space for people to protest here peacefully.

PEREIRA: Marc and Harry, we know she was part of the panel brought in discuss how to manage police relations after Ferguson.

Chris, I want you to jump in because I know you have questions from the field.

CUOMO: Yes, Mick, sometimes we have to argue the theoretical here and what she meant, what she didn't mean the mayor. In this situation, we're going -- you're hearing one of the fire trucks here. This has been going on all throughout the night. There are still situations for the first responders to deal with.

This is not a theoretical situation. It doesn't matter what the mayor meant. The reality was they were not ready for what happened yesterday. They didn't have the manpower in place. They didn't have them where they need to be.

And most importantly, you didn't have the mayor and the governor and the electeds in place, Mick. And it's so important to hear their voices during the moment of crisis.

The first word that we got from the mayor's office was explaining why she didn't have as many people out here as she might have otherwise. That's not how it works.

So, whatever the motivations were, the reality was you had to get out of control and you had no way to keep it under control for way too long.

CAMEROTA: And, Chris --

HILL: Chris, the motivations are part of the story, Chris. I don't disagree with you. I think people should have been in place.

Clearly, they were caught with their pants down to some extent. I don't disagree with you there. My only point is talking about her motivation isn't purely theoretical. If we have a conversation today that this mayor --

HOUCK: Who's going to stop that from happening, marc? The mayor stopped that from happening, all right? The mayor did not allow the police officers to respond properly so this would not escalate to the point it is today.

HILL: Harry, I'm not arguing that point. If we had a conversation that suggests as you just did that the mayor intentionally wanted this to happen, I'm saying that's not only irresponsible, it creates context for more violence today and more political problems. I don't disagree with what Chris was saying that they're out of place, Harry was saying --

HOUCK: That's her comment. The comment allowed --

CUOMO: I'm not saying that. I'm saying --

HILL: No, Harry was saying that.

HOUCK: No, I'm not.

CUOMO: But, Harry, you don't need to parse the words, Harry, because it's not helpful.

[06:40:00] All you know is that everybody's supposed to be on the same page if you want calm in the community. And somebody made the call to not have the cops in the right place, not have them signed up and lined up the way they needed to be until much later.

HOUCK: Well, it wasn't the cops.

CUOMO: And they were watching things burn yesterday here. Police were watching crime in progress. And you got to figure out who is telling them to do that because the men and women that we met last night policing the communities want to be very active and make sure that everybody's safe.

CAMEROTA: Chris, I thought it was interesting the interview you just did with the former state police officer, Harry, Chris just talked to one out on the field, and he said before you activate police, you need to have the intelligence. He said we didn't have the intelligence that said that it was going to escalate from a protest to a riot.

PEREIRA: That's what I was asking about, is why is there not sort of a pre-plan?

HOUCK: Last week, there was some intelligence about this happening. There was a lot of tweets going out and some of the Baltimore police officers were talking about how they were reading that information.

They knew something was going to happen. I mean, I mentioned this on Anderson Cooper the other day that this weekend would get bad, all right? And I'm not getting any intelligence information. Any police officers out there, and I'm sure those police officers in Baltimore knew something was going to happen, and that chief of police out there, if it was up to him I am sure this would not have occurred.

CAMEROTA: Marc, last word.

HILL: You know, I don't think anyone thinks -- the people in the streets aren't believing that the Baltimore police department operates without -- or with restraint. They didn't think it was free- rein in Baltimore.

There's a section of people protesting and apparently doing more than that in a very particular way. We can have a critique of the mayor, we can have a critique of the state, we can all armchair quarterback this, but this is happening in real time and people are making tough decisions on the fly, and we have to acknowledge how difficult that is at the same time we have our critique.

CAMEROTA: Marc, Harry, thanks so much. Great to see both of you.

We want to know what your take is, what do you think is going on in Baltimore? Who do you think is responsible? You can tweet us using the #NewDayCNN, you can also find all of us on Twitter.

PEREIRA: Our coverage will continue, Alisyn, on the situation in Baltimore.

Still to come as well, the Supreme Court is set to hear arguments in the gay marriage debate in a matter of hours. A 48-year- old Ohio man will be sitting in the front row. His lawsuit launched this case. He'll join us live on NEW DAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:46:15] PEREIRA: A state of emergency has been declared in Baltimore. That city reeling from a night of violence. Rioters looting stores, setting fires, attacking police, leaving 15 officers injured. So far, 27 people have been arrested.

The governor of Maryland calling in the National Guard and state police summoning 5,000 reinforcements from neighboring states. Schools closed for the day in Baltimore, and a 10:00 p.m. curfew will be enforced beginning tonight.

CAMEROTA: During helicopter rescues to save climbers stranded by the avalanche on Mt. Everest appear to be a success. They have all been evacuated back to base camp. Rescue teams on the ground though still digging through tons of rubble desperately looking for earthquake survivors. The death toll now soaring to more than 4,400 people. Thousands more who were injured are packing hospitals in Katmandu. The U.N. estimates 8 million people have been affected by this quake.

PEREIRA: Such heartbreak there.

An appeals court in South Korea handing down a tougher sentence for the captain of a ferry that sank last year, killing 304 people. Lee Joon-seok was convicted in November of last year of negligence and abandoning passengers in need. He was sentenced to 36 years in jail. Prosecutors appealed the decision. Now, the appellate court found him guilty of homicide and gave him a life sentence.

CAMEROTA: All right. We'll have more on the situation in Baltimore.

But first, should gay marriage be the law of the land? The Supreme Court is about to hear arguments in a case that will have national implications. So, we will talk to two men at the center of that case, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:51:45] PEREIRA: Good to have you back here with us on NEW DAY.

We are going to return to the breaking riots in Baltimore in the moment. But first, in about three hours time, arguments begin in a case that could determine the future of gay marriage in the United States. The Supreme Court is being asked to decide whether the Constitution requires states to issue marriage licenses to gay couples.

Jim Obergefell is a plaintiff in the case that bears his name. He joins us this morning, alongside the president of the Human Rights Campaign, Chad Griffin, to discuss the case.

I guess I have to ask right off the bat, Jim, how are you feeling about this big day as you stand there in front of the courthouse?

JAMES OBERGEFELL, PLAINTIFF IN SAME-SEX MARRIAGE CASE: I'm excited and still hoping that it sinks in that I'm actually here, because it hasn't quite yet happened.

PEREIRA: Chad, maybe you can reach over and pinch him, because I think he's having a "pinch me" moment.

CHAD GRIFFIN, PRESIDENT, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: We're here, Jim.

OBERGEFELL: Thank you, Chad.

PEREIRA: And, Chad, you've actually said you believe that the Supreme Court will rule in Jim's favor. Why do you feel that confidence?

GRIFFIN: I do, Michaela. And, look, it's not only because of Jim and Jim's incredible stories and all the plaintiffs who've gotten us this far, all of us stand on the shoulders of giants that have built to the day we're having today.

But why I think we're going to win at the end of the day is because America is with us. Jim's not alone here.

PEREIRA: No, he's not.

GRIFFIN: Today, more than 60 percent of Americans are supporting Jim and what we're fighting for. A majority of Republicans under 50, most major corporations including Coca-Cola and General Mills and Apple are with Jim and with the plaintiffs in their filing before this court.

I am confident that at the end of the day, this court is going to come down like it has in so many times in the past on the side of equal justice under the law.

PEREIRA: The Human Rights Campaign has been telling your story, Jim, for quite a while. Why don't you tell our viewers briefly if you can why you decided to sue?

OBERGEFELL: It was a very easy decision, Michaela. When John and I decided to get married and we had the great fortune to be able to do that and say those incredible words, "I thee wed", to come home back to Ohio and to be shown a blank death certificate and to hear the words that, you know, John and Jim when John dies, Ohio will say he's single.

And he will -- they will not list your name in that field as the surviving spouse. It was heartbreaking. And for us, it was a very easy decision to say this isn't right, this isn't something we should stand for, and it isn't something anyone else should stand for. It was a very easy decision for us to stand up and say we won't take this.

PEREIRA: You've become the poster child for it. And you do it very well, I must add.

Chad, so we know the opponents are going to argue that and have argued for a long time that this issue of gay marriage should be left up to the states, 36 states and Washington, D.C. currently allow for same-sex marriage. But why for you is it unacceptable that the idea of leaving it up to the states to decide?

GRIFFIN: Because at the end of the day in this country perhaps in other countries, Michaela, but not in the United States of America. We don't leave fundamental rights, fundamental civil rights up to the states.

[06:55:03] We just don't do that in this country. And this court, those nine justices behind me and this court over time have said it in 14 different cases that marriage is a fundamental right, fundamental in fact to the pursuit of happiness.

And so, at the end of the day, I believe that's where this court's going to head. And then loving couples all across this country, our neighbors, our families, they'll have that same right. They'll all have the same right under the law and get the same protections that they so deserve. You know, Justice Kennedy and his opinion in the Windsor case, he focused on the thousands of children in this country today that are being raised by same-sex parents.

Don't they deserve the same protections under the law? Of course they do.

PEREIRA: Jim, I can imagine on a day like today and leading up to it you've done a lot of reflecting where you've come, where you and your former partner, had come, the battle, the struggle. And I was even reflecting on the fact that the country's come a long way on this in a very short amount of time. More so than any other social policy. That is something.

OBERGEFELL: It really is. I mean, John and I honestly never thought we would have the ability to marry in our lifetimes. And to see the change in a couple short years has been amazing. And I think a big part of that is we lived our lives, we were open about who we were, who we are and our relationship. And that's what has driven all this change.

My LGBT brothers and sisters across the country simply being who they are and being open and honest about that. So, it's amazing that so much has changed, but it's due to that.

PEREIRA: Right.

OBERGEFELL: We're no longer those unknown people.

PEREIRA: Right.

OBERGEFELL: We're neighbors, we're family, we're friends.

PERIERA: Chad, before we leave you, how would you react to a split decision? Anything could happen today.

GRIFFIN: Look, anything could happen. But there's one thing that I agree with Justice Scalia on, in his dissent in the Windsor opinion he said that that opinion was going to lead to other federal courts all across this country coming down on the side of marriage equality. Justice Scalia, I think, was right in that dissent. And I believe that some day very soon, Americans in every single corner of this country, in towns big and small and in all 50 states, are going to have the freedom to marry the person that they love.

PEREIRA: Chad and Jim, you have a busy day ahead of you. Make sure you get some Gatorade and Wheaties in you. Thanks so much for joining us so early this morning.

GRIFFIN: Thank you.

OBERGEFELL: Thank you, Michaela.

PEREIRA: So we are following a whole lot of news today. Let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POLICE OFFICER: Out of the perimeter.

CUOMO: OK.

HOUCK: We've got 27 arrests, we should have probably close to 50, maybe 100 arrests.

POLICE OFFICER: You guys, we got to move back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Baltimore Police Department doesn't have the resources to do what's needed to be done here.

CUOMO: There's a liquor store that was just lit on fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this violence and destruction I am really appalled.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want justice for my son, but don't tear up the whole city.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This city is on fire.

RAWLINGS-BLAKE: We have control. We are responding to fire. We are responding to police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is nuts. It's a war zone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CUOMO: Welcome to your NEW DAY. Alisyn and Michaela are in New York. I'm coming to you live from Baltimore where we're following breaking news this morning.

The city is burning in parts, and there are still fighting those fires right now. The fallout just beginning, following riots stemming from the death of Freddie Gray. The governor declared a state of emergency. It is now in effect after massive demonstrations spun way out of control and turned into outright riots yesterday here in parts of the city.

Rocks, bricks, bottles, explosive devices thrown at police. Businesses, cars, local businesses, community owners cars, they were burned, police cars as well. Stores looted, left in ruins, jobs lost as a result.

Dozens of people arrested, many more could have been. You had more than a dozen officers injured, many more could have been. The complete word was chaos. The hospitals are certainly filled with people today feeling the pain of yesterday.

Schools are closed today in Baltimore. And there's a new curfew that starts tonight at 10:00 p.m. as the city looks to get itself back under control. CNN had people in the action all day and night.

Here is what we saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice-over): On a day that expected peace and mourning, police stood down. And that was a mistake.

The funeral of Freddie Gray marked the worst day of rioting in Baltimore since the '60s.

RAWLINGS-BLAKE: This is one of our darkest days as a city, and I know that we are much better than this.

CUOMO: National Guard troops and waves of cops panning out after the governor declares a state of emergency. Gray's family condemning the violence as well, but looters and rioters take advantage of lax policing to set fire to and steal from their own community.