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New Day

Why Did Police Van Make Undisclosed Stop?; Interview with Rep. Elijah Cummings; Police Clash with Protesters in Philadelphia; Baltimore Braces for Large Protests. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired May 01, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PROTESTERS: All night! All day, we will fight for Freddie Gray!

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Anger spikes after documents are leaked in the investigation to Freddie Gray's death.

(on camera): It feels a little different tonight.

(voice-over): The passion on the streets of Baltimore overnight spilling onto intersections across the country.

Despite a few tense moments in Philadelphia when protesters try entering a highway, voices rage but protests are mostly peaceful.

(on camera): The police are sitting here and watching this. So it's about a balance.

(voice-over): Officers understanding the outrage in Baltimore saying they'll only interfere if public safety really becomes an issue.

Once again the 10:00 curfew nears.

[07:00:02] REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: We are getting ready to leave this area.

CUOMO: Once again, Congressman Elijah Cummings on the streets telling protesters to go home.

CUMMINGS (singing): ... I'm going to let it shine.

CUOMO: And once again people, for the most part, respond.

(on camera): They're going to ask people to go home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please move to the side.

CUOMO: As the police line closes in on the few deciding to stay, one man, agitating the line, enveloped by police. Disappearing behind the shields, handcuffed and taken away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How is it possible for me, if I'm strapped down in a police wagon with my hands tied, do I sever my own spine? CUOMO: Two new points of contention: that Gray's deadly injuries were

caused when he slammed into the back of the van, apparently breaking his neck, according to CNN affiliate WJLA, which spoke to multiple law enforcement officials briefed on the medical examiner's findings. Sources telling WJLA the head injury matches a bolt in the back of the prison van.

Police also reveal the fatal trip after Gray's arrest included yet another stop. Apparently, they did not know it happened until recently, when it was discovered not from police but a privately-owned camera on the streets of Baltimore, raising new questions about Gray's treatment after his arrest.

COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: People are jumping to conclusions. I think it's unfortunate that these little things are coming out. And I think that's inappropriate. I think people should take a deep breath and wait for the state's attorney.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: But waiting is the hard part. Now that the police have delivered it to the prosecutor, what happens next? How long will that take? And how good and trustworthy are the prosecutors involved? Big questions.

We've got CNN's Rene Marsh looking for answers for us, joining us now. So what do you know, my friend?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know you just mentioned that. The second stop that we did know about before. All of that information now handed over to the state attorney's office. So she will be looking at the police investigation, but not solely on that.

We know that she says that she will be looking for other evidence, as well, that could include new witnesses. Of course, she has yet to receive that medical examiner's report. So there will be critical information in that, as well, to compare what's in that report to what the officers...

CUOMO: Could get the autopsy today. That will be huge.

MARSH: Exactly. That could happen today. It could happen early next week, but it will be a basis for them to look at and compare to what these officers said happened on this very day. And of course she, we're talking about this very young state prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby.

CUOMO: She's new.

MARSH: She is new. Five months on the job. And she has the weight and the nation watching her for what is going to be quite a difficult case. Looking at all this evidence and trying to determine criminally can she charge these officers with the death of Freddie Gray.

CUOMO: What's the reputation of her so far?

MARSH: You know, Elijah Cummings, the congressman here in Maryland was out yesterday talking about the trust in the process. And when you talk to people here, they elected her, they trust her. So now they are wanting her to take her time and not rush and go through the facts and determine what is the right move.

And a key point is she has not set a deadline for herself. And many people, although they're anxious to know what the outcome will be, they're happy that she will take her time to go through the law and make the correct determination they're hoping.

CUOMO: Haste makes waste. Justice delayed is justice denied. Tough balance, especially right out of the box. Rene, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Mick, back to you in New York.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Chris, thank you so much. We want to look at the demonstrations that are being planned around the country for today following another round. Thursday crowds took top the streets in cities like Philadelphia, where they were altercations between police and protesters. CNN's Rosa Flores is looking at all this for us.

Hey, Rosa.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

You know, the people in these other cities -- we're talking about Philadelphia and Cincinnati, they're also protesting against police brutality in their communities and also for equality of opportunity.

Now, we start off in Philadelphia. Now, take a look. Things start off very peacefully, but you can see that a small tussle begins to ensue, and tensions start to grow. Now, tensions boil over right here.

Now, this is where demonstrators are trying to get onto I-95. Police officers saying, "No way, not going to happen, you're not getting onto the interstate." Now demonstrators, you can see there, they start putting their hands up in the air and also chanting.

At the end of the day two people are arrested in Philadelphia.

We move onto Cincinnati where the situation very orderly there. It starts off with a list of speakers. And it ends with marchers heading towards police headquarters.

But it's not over. More protests are scheduled for today. Take a look at this map. New York, Baltimore, Chicago, Oakland. And hear this: today is International Workers' Day. What does that mean? Well, all of the organizations for immigration and workers' rights are also having demonstrations. And they are expanding, broadening their mission to include "black lives matter" -- Chris.

[07:05:18] CUOMO: All right, Rosa, thank you very much.

Let's bring in Congressman Elijah Cummings. He is not new to being understood as a leader in this community. He's a native of Baltimore. He represents this city. But he has been out on the streets every night, trying to keep protests peaceful. And there has been a vacuum of leadership out on the streets.

You've been there. Senator Pugh has been with you. Certain council members have been with you. But you have been the man in the center. And people are saying it has made a difference. Do you feel that?

CUMMINGS: I hope so. And I think so. I mean, when I look at that corner that we stand on, I have not seen anybody get arrested. I'm sure there have been a few, but over the last three or four days, I don't think -- the last three days, I don't think more than five or six people have been arrested on that corner.

CUOMO: So we have big boxes to check this morning. One, the curfew. Do you believe it should be shortened in duration? Should it end sooner?

CUMMINGS: I think -- I'm leaving that up to the mayor and the police commissioner.

CUOMO: People like it. It feels like a control mechanism.

CUMMINGS: Yes. It does.

CUOMO: "This is our home. We're being good. Why are you punishing us?"

CUMMINGS: Yes, but we've got to deal with safety first, and safety and security. And so I leave that up to them. They have to make those judgments. And we've elected them to do that.

CUOMO: Now, you have told us and cautioned us don't ignore the big issues just because of the sensation of moments that you catch on video.

CUMMINGS: Right.

CUOMO: OK. Big development, DOJ says it's going to put millions of dollars, maybe as much as 20, into body cameras for cops. How big an issue is that?

CUMMINGS: That is super big. And it's great. We need even more. But I'm glad to know that, because I think people -- policemen and our police departments need those cameras, I think as a protection for the police and for the public, really. When they know that somebody's looking at what they're doing, it makes a difference. And the public will feel better. It's not going to solve all the problems, but it's going to make a difference.

CUOMO: Now, you had angry young men and women. Each night you're out there.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

CUOMO: They're coming at you. CUMMINGS: Yes.

CUOMO: You see the look in their eyes, and they're saying, "I don't buy it."

CUMMINGS: Right.

CUOMO: Unannounced stop, now they're finding out -- they're laying groundwork for a cover-up, they were telling me last night. "Oh, it was a bolt in a van. They're getting ready to excuse themselves," Elijah, that's what they were saying last night.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

CUOMO: What do you say in reply?

CUMMINGS: What I say to them is that we -- the police, have now turned over their report to the state's attorney. And Marilyn Mosby is a brilliant young prosecutor. I am so proud of her. And she will -- she lives in the neighborhood. She lives a few blocks from where I live. And she is a daughter of our community. And she will take the evidence, look at it.

But you got to remember, she's got the full -- if she looks at it and doesn't like it, she's got the full force of the federal government behind her. She can go to the FBI agents and say, "Look, I need more information on this. I need more information on this."

And what I'm begging the public to do is let her do her job. Her integrity is impeccable. And she's -- and we voted for her. And so I'm -- I just believe that she'll make the right decision.

But I want her -- all the issues that we're talking about -- the second stop that they didn't know about, all the things -- she'll have a chance to actually put a high -powered microscope on all that. And she may say -- call the FBI and say, "Look, I need you to check this out or check that out." And so I feel very comfortable with that.

CUOMO: Let me ask you something. What do you know about whether or not Mosby's office has reached out the way you would hope, let's say, with the Gray family? Because you know that there's -- there's some criticism there.

CUMMINGS: Yes. I don't know. I don't know how much...

CUOMO: Do you think they should?

CUMMINGS: I think that -- well, that would surprise me. One thing I know about her during her campaign she talked about making sure that victims in her office would work together and there would be, you know, some kind of connection.

I don't know. I don't know. I think she should. But I don't know the extent of what she's done. But I'm pretty sure that she's done some reaching out. But you've got to remember, she's got a -- she's got a tough job. She really does. CUOMO: Yes. There's no way to exaggerate how difficult it is,

because what happens if, at the end of the day, she looks at the stack of paper like this and everybody's doing their investigations, and she doesn't feel...

CUMMINGS: Yes.

CUOMO: ... that she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a very high standard, as you know...

CUMMINGS: Yes, very high standard.

CUOMO: ... that this was done as homicide, intentional bad acts to Freddie Gray. Then what?

CUMMINGS: Let me say, as far as I'm concerned if Marilyn Mosby takes this case, takes the law and applies it to the facts, do the research and the investigation as thorough as she can, whatever judgment she comes up with I will trust it. Period. That's how much I believe in her.

CUOMO: And what do you think's going to happen when you take that back to the corner?

CUMMINGS: I'm going to have to explain that.

CUOMO: Yes, you will.

CUMMINGS: And I will.

CUOMO: I'm not saying that you'll be wrong.

CUMMINGS: Right.

CUOMO: I'm saying that it will not be acceptable to people who feel...

CUMMINGS: It may very well not be, but I've got to know -- I know in my heart that if she, knowing her, whatever judgment she comes up with I will accept it. Period.

[07:10:12] CUOMO: You have that much faith in her discretion?

CUMMINGS: I have that -- I have that much faith. I have that much faith. I've been practicing law for 40 years. And I know these young lawyers and I know the best. Her integrity -- she's a member of the my church as a matter of fact -- but her integrity is impeccable. And a pursuit of excellence.

Keep in mind, that's why the public has got to let her do her job. See, because if there are questions, the kind of questions that have been raised here this morning, we want her to be able to do that research to get -- bring in all the resources that she can muster to get all of that and then make the judgment. I trust her judgment.

CUOMO: I hear you. CUMMINGS: OK.

CUOMO: How do you separate the specific case of Freddie Gray from the metaphor value it is for these young men and women, and older men and women, in these communities, where they say this is a symptom of the disease, Freddie Gray?

The disease is the police culture. The disease is "I don't have any options so I wind up having to mix with the police." Those -- the disease that nobody wants to talk about, but they say feed into...

CUMMINGS: Yes.

CUOMO: ... that winds up creating a Freddie Gray situation.

CUMMINGS: Yes.

CUOMO: How do you separate the two for them? Because they're putting pressure on what happens with Freddie Gray as recognition of all these bigger issues that they suffer from.

CUMMINGS: You know what? You know what? You can't separate them. You can't. Because it's all intertwined. It's all intertwined.

When you don't have a job, when you don't feel that your education is what it should have been so that you could be the best that you can be, when you feel like a fellow said to me yesterday, he said, "Cummings, I love you, man." This is a 16-year-old. He said, "But I feel like I'm in a coffin, clawing, trying to get out." When you feel that way, you know, all of it mixes together.

And so you've got -- you have people, you have the police incident -- and by the way, I am very upset about all these leaks and everything, because I think that only hurts trust of the public.

And then you've got the education issues. You've got a number of economic issues, jobs. By the way I've got to give a shout out to CVS. The first thing I did was call CVS and said, "Look, don't leave our community."

CUOMO: What'd they say?

CUMMINGS: They said, "Cummings, we're going to see what we can do." The next thing I know they kept 45 jobs, kept paying the 45 people there.

So, I mean, so we've got -- so all of these things -- jobs, education, economic opportunity.

And by the way, the community's coming together. We've got -- today I'm meeting with members of the education community, our foundations, some corporates. People are calling me every day saying, "We see the problem. Now we need to make a difference."

Now we've got to get the Congress to begin to move and to do more to help these kind of communities. CUOMO: You think you deal with gangs here on the streets. It's

nothing compared to what you have to deal with back in D.C., when it comes to moving gangs that don't want to work together.

Let me ask you something. Do you have it in you -- you've been in the game a long time. You've been saying to me over the last few days this is the issue. This is the civil rights struggle for this generation.

CUMMINGS: No doubt about it.

CUOMO: They are looking to you in that community...

CUMMINGS: Right.

CUOMO: ... as a brother that they recognize as one of their own but as a leader of someone they need to represent them. Do you have it in you to take on this fight, as big as it is?

CUMMINGS: I have it on me to take on this fight. Let me tell you why.

I'm in the twilight of my life. I'm in the evening. I want them to have a better morning. And I really mean that. So I had my chance.

That little girl that said to us the other day, she said, "Look, I'm reading from a textbook from 1973." Every member of Congress should say, "We will not have that. We're a better country than that."

And so, yes, I've got to fight. You know, this may be my last hand, but I'm going to give it everything I've got until I die.

CUOMO: We've seen you out there late at night. And don't go anywhere too soon.

CUMMINGS: Not too soon. Not too soon.

CUOMO: You're singing, though, last night.

CUMMINGS: Oh, yes. I can sing now.

CUOMO: That's one opinion, Congressman. That's one opinion. Good to have you.

CUMMINGS: Good to be here.

CUOMO: Good luck with the community. It's a real fight you have in front of you.

CUMMINGS: Thank you.

CUOMO: Mick, back to you.

PEREIRA: All right. Great conversation there. We'll get back to Baltimore. But right now I want to update you on some of the other things happening around the world. The number of people killed in the Nepal earthquake is now over 6,200.

Nearly 14,000 people have been injured. Rescue crews are having a really difficult time trying to reach those who survived. Look at this view of the complete devastation in Shaku (ph) region, captured by a drone. Houses ripped apart as mudslides block road travel to at least 26 villages desperately in need of help.

Back here at home a former top ally of New Jersey Governor Chris Christie could be nearing a plea deal over the Bridgegate scandal. Bloomberg reporting that David Wildstein could plead guilty as early as today when he appears in court. Wildstein was an executive with the agency that oversees the George Washington Bridge. Earlier this week, Christie told reporters he's, quote, "not the least bit interested" about the federal investigation.

[07:15:10] A watchdog group is accusing the American Psychological Association of being complicit with the Bush administration to help justify the torture of terror detainees following the 9/11 attacks. Their report claims the group worked with the Bush White House to bolster the CIA's enhanced interrogations as safe after the program -- pardon me -- came under scrutiny for abuse by the U.S. military at Abu Ghraib. The APA denies coordinating its actions with the government.

Back to the Freddie Gray investigation. It is now in the hands of Maryland's top prosecutor. Will new information help unlock the mystery surrounding his death? We'll take a look.

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PEREIRA: New information emerging from the preliminary report into the death of Freddie Gray. Our affiliate, WJLA, reports that Gray's head injury matches a bolt in the back of the police van that was transporting him. But as far as how Gray sustained that injury, well, there's no shortage of questions.

Let's break down some of these with -- some of these prominent theories, actually, with Harry Houck. He's a retired NYPD detective. Cedric Alexander joins us, the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives and a member of the president's Task Force for 21st Century Policing.

[07:20:12] Gentlemen, good to have you with us.

HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Thanks, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Let's look at some of these theories, a couple of theories we can look at. We know -- Harry, and I'll start with you. A relative of one of the officers told CNN that they believe that the injury that Freddie Gray sustained was in the takedown when he was being detained.

HOUCK: Right.

PEREIRA: But there's video that shows him kind of walking oddly. And I think we can actually see it. Let's see. Where do I go back to it? Having trouble with this wall today. Let's throw it away. We can see in the arrest video -- this is the initial arrest video.

HOUCK: Right.

PEREIRA: Does anything there strike you as unusual or odd or troublesome or brings questions to mind?

HOUCK: Well, you know, my theory is that -- that the initial injury happened in the takedown also. I think that's where it happened. As you can see here, we don't know if he's pretending that he can't walk...

PEREIRA: Because that can happen.

HOUCK: ... because it happens all the time. You know, or is this result of an injury that he has to the neck, which these are the typical symptoms for.

PEREIRA: But to that point where you were saying about pretending. You have to have -- as an officer on the job, you've got to have a gut feeling.

HOUCK: Right.

PEREIRA: What is the protocol to decide whether you call for medical assistance or don't call for medical assistance?

HOUCK: There's no protocol. The whole thing is -- this is based on your experience now.

PEREIRA: OK.

HOUCK: Remember, police officers aren't doctors.

PEREIRA: Right.

HOUCK: And I know from every arrest I've ever made, a lot of them say they can't breathe, you know, "You're hurting me." Or -- and a lot of them...

PEREIRA: But what if they really are?

HOUCK: That's the issue.

PEREIRA: That's the issue.

HOUCK: What if they really are? How do you make that determination? That's the problem. You're not a doctor.

PEREIRA: Cedric, what are your thoughts on that?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, PRESIDENT, NOBLE: Well, my thought is this. You know in the case and the footage that you've just shown there, he certainly was in excruciating pain. And not to Monday-morning quarterback those officers that were involved, because I think the investigation at the end of all this is going to reveal what really happened. But in cases such like that, it's probably just best to go ahead and call emergency service to come out.

PEREIRA: Better be safe than sorry, right?

ALEXANDER: Better to be safe than sorry. Absolutely.

HOUCK: I agree.

PEREIRA: And we also know that, you know, officers are not looking to have to deal with a whole lot of paperwork or get themselves into trouble or have to answer questions. So often the gut would be to say, "Let's just call. Better to be safe than sorry."

Let's move onto this other theory about this so-called rough rides. There's this idea that Gray was given a rough ride. These are these unsanctioned rides where you drive a little faster and little sloppier so that the suspect or the arrestee rolls around in the back of the van. Because we do know he was not seat belted or retrained that way.

HOUCK: Seat belted. Right.

PEREIRA: So what do you make of that, Harry?

HOUCK: This is my theory on this here. He was in the van for approximately four to five minutes all by himself.

PEREIRA: Right.

HOUCK: OK. So that is when the rough -- alleged rough ride would have to have occurred.

PEREIRA: It's possible.

HOUCK: Now, also -- yes. But because the fact is they followed the van around by the CCTV that's all around Baltimore. They were able to see if there was a rough ride. Now, we haven't seen all the video.

PEREIRA: We haven't seen the video. We don't know.

HOUCK: I can't say. All right? But also, doing...

PEREIRA: But we also know that Baltimore has had cases where people...

HOUCK: Yes, yes.

PEREIRA: ... where people have won judgments, millions of dollars.

HOUCK: Right. So let's look at this one case here.

PEREIRA: OK. Fair enough.

HOUCK: OK? Now, what happens is, is they have to stop; and they've got to shackle him. Now, when I was a cop on the street, the only reason why you shackle somebody is for two reasons: One, they're in the back of the radio car trying to kick out the gate, trying to kick out the windows or something like that. Or they're trying to harm themselves. All right? So that's when you were...

PEREIRA: Why wasn't he restrained initially, though? Because then...

HOUCK: That's another issue.

PEREIRA: ... that would have prevented -- I mean, it's not illegal for them not to.

HOUCK: No, it's not.

PEREIRA: Right.

HOUCK: That's another issue. OK? So now we have him being restrained at the legs and put back in. And then they go pick up another prisoner.

PEREIRA: Right.

HOUCK: OK? So apparently at this moment, he's not unconscious. He's still conscious. And you know, not near death -- I don't know. OK. Now we've got another 25-minute period...

PEREIRA: Which is another big gap.

HOUCK: ... where the other person is in the van with him.

PEREIRA: We can't rely on that person's testimony.

HOUCK: Well, yes, of course we can. And based on certain things that he had said. He said that he had heard them -- heard him in the back making all kinds of noise, kicking, something like that. We don't know how long it went on, though.

PEREIRA: That's right. I've got to get Cedric in here, as well.

Cedric, you don't necessarily buy this, do you? You think that medical attention should have been called earlier. You also -- have you heard of these rough rides? Do you think that's a feasible argument here?

ALEXANDER: Well, I mean, yes. I mean, it could be, but it could not be. But I have to be very careful. And certainly I agree with Harry on each point that he just made.

But one thing I want to be cautious of: until we have some evidence to suggest that that was a rough ride, we really don't know. We don't know how extensive his injuries were when they placed him in the back of that van. And the fact of the matter is that they did not secure him in and of itself is problematic.

PEREIRA: OK. So what about that bolt, Cedric? We've heard WJLA reporting that there was a bolt that is consistent with the injury that Gray sustained to his neck. You guys -- you both have been in the back of these vans. You know what they look like.

ALEXANDER: Right. [07:25:04] PEREIRA: You know what the interior is like. If he was unrestrained, how could that injury have potentially taken place? Again, I understand that we're, you know, we're speculating here.

ALEXANDER: But, you know, the thing here too, Michaela, is this. You're absolutely right; we are speculating. If that report that was reported to that local station is true, then certainly, it creates a real concern. However, it is not an official M.E.'s report. And that's what I think we have to be patient to wait on.

PEREIRA: Yes.

ALEXANDER: Is get that M.E.'s report that will -- official M.E.'s report that state -- that give us some indication as to what occurred inside that van.

PEREIRA: Good level of caution from both of you. I appreciate that.

ALEXANDER: Absolutely.

PEREIRA: Both of you are urging calm and patience.

ALEXANDER: Yes.

PEREIRA: Because this has to follow due process. We have to wait for that information to come through, and then hopefully, there will be answers there. Harry, Cedric, we always appreciate your expertise.

HOUCK: Thank you.

PEREIRA: You can tweet us if you'd like and join the conversation using the hashtag #NewDayCNN.

We also know that other communities across the country have experienced police shootings involving young black men. Not every city has reacted like Baltimore. What makes Baltimore different? We'll take a look.

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