Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Gunmen Killed at Dallas Cartoonist Event; Thousands Rally at Baltimore City Hall after Police Arrests; Who is Baltimore's Top Prosecutor? Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 04, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got to stop this right now. Shots fired.

[05:58:29] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two suspects have been shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quick shots. Police starting running.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The keynote speaker at the event was placed on an al Qaeda hit list.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Demonstrations turn more into celebrations.

CHRIS CUOMO, CO-HOST: The city's mayor lifting the week-long 10 p.m. curfew.

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Everyone has a right to be treated with dignity and respect.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Public servants should not violate the law.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These officers did nothing wrong.

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm announcing my candidacy for president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 2016 race for the White House getting a little more crowded.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I bring a different perspective to the table.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CO-HOST: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to NEW DAY. It's Monday, May 4, 6 a.m. in the East. Chris Cuomo is live in Baltimore with the latest developments in the Freddie Gray case, and Michaela Pereira is off today.

We do begin with breaking news for you. Two men killed by police in a Dallas suburb after opening fire outside an event featuring cartoon drawings of the Prophet Mohammed and controversial speeches on Islam.

Among the hundreds in attendance and the fiery director of a well-known anti-Islam group and a Dutch politician who had been placed on an al Qaeda hit list. The FBI investigating this morning who were the shooters and what was their motive.

CNN has team coverage on this, beginning with CNN's Ed Lavandera on the scene for us in Garland, Texas. What do we know, Ed?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn. The event was just starting to wrap up when police say two men drove up and started firing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just need everybody to remain calm. Be kind of orderly. We're taking you to the auditorium a little further away from the front of this building. All right?

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Breaking overnight, a deadly scene in a Dallas suburb. Two gunmen shot dead after opening fire and wounding a security guard outside an event center where a cartoon-drawing contest of the Prophet Mohammed was being held. Law enforcement officials tell CNN the entire shooting lasted about 15 seconds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We prepared for something like this.

LAVANDERA: The security officer, Bruce Joiner, was treated at a hospital for an ankle gunshot wound and released.

This video shows the moment gunfire erupted, an interview with the president of the organization sponsoring the event cut abruptly short as security rushed the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got to stop this right now. Shots fired.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shots?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired.

LAVANDERA: Witnesses describe the chaotic turn of events.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are military or policemen everywhere, running.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sounded like "boom, boom," then the next thing, they're telling us, "Get inside, get inside," and the officers were drawing their weapons.

LAVANDERA: Attendees were escorted to another room in the conference center, where the crowd sing "God bless America."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): God bless America...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): God bless America... UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): God bless America...

LAVANDERA: The event, which included a $10,000 top prize for the best caricature of the Prophet Mohammed, was organized by the American Freedom Defense Initiative, a controversial group which claims they are against Islamic Jihad, while others call them a hate group.

Any physical depictions of the prophet are considered blasphemous to many Muslims and have sparked violence around the world. Sponsors of the contest billed it as a free speech event. The event featured keynote speaker and right-wing Dutch politician Geert Wilders, who is on an al Qaeda hit list for wanting to ban the Koran in the Netherlands.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA: And Alisyn, as you look there, it's a live picture of the scene of what we believe is the suspect's car. FBI teams, evidence teams have been here at the scene throughout the night, working the situation.

There had been some concern last fight that there were explosives inside the vehicle. In fact, the bodies of the two suspects were shot down just next to that car. So they never made it inside the events center here, Alisyn. But we have not gotten an update as to whether or not any explosives were, indeed, found. We anticipate we will get that information later on this morning. But as for more, we have a vantage point which is much closer here this morning we have no longer see the bodies of the suspect on the ground next to the car, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Ed. Please keep us posted as updates come in on this story. Thank you.

Well, the shootings followed the deadly "Charlie Hebdo" attack in France, and another in Copenhagen, you'll remember, both of which have links to ISIS. CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson helps us take a look at the time line of all these events.

Good morning, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, Alisyn. Well, it was early January when the "Charlie Hebdo" attack took place. Two brothers there going in with automatic weapons, targeting cartoonists inside that satirical magazine. He also was on the al Qaeda hit list. They killed 11 people, wounded 11 others.

And then in Copenhagen, a similar type of situation to the one that we saw happen in Texas overnight in Copenhagen. This was in -- early in the middle of February. A lone gunman tries to attack a Swedish cartoonist, Lars Vilk, who is also on -- who is also on the al Qaeda hit list. He is attending a freedom of speech event inside a cafe. Gunmen arrive with an automatic weapon, fire shots at the crowd.

What saves the majority of people there -- one filmmaker was killed outside the cafe. But what saves the majority of people there is security assigned to the cartoonists, Lars Vilk, Swedish and Danish security, they pull their weapons, fire shots. The gunman fires it, gives off about 30 rounds before he is chased away. That night, he shows up outside a synagogue in center Copenhagen, kills a guard there who's guarding a bat mitzvah that's going on inside the synagogue that night.

With both of these situations, in the "Charlie Hebdo" in Paris, later we discovered that the two brothers there in the attack had ties to al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. That's al Qaeda in Yemen, and then the attacker in Copenhagen, he had ties, we later discovered, to ISIS. He pledged an allegiance to the ISIS leader, Baghdadi online shortly before the attack, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK. Nic Robertson, thank you for all of that background.

We want to talk more about this. Joining us is Christopher Lett. He's the CNN producer who was inside the venue when the shooting occurred. And Ben Ferguson, host of "The Ben Ferguson Show" in Dallas and our CNN political commentator. Gentleman, thanks so much for being here.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Christopher, you were inside the venue. Tell us what happened.

CHRISTOPHER LETT, CNN PRODUCER: Yes. So as the announcement was made, I was in the middle of an interview. I saw somebody try to exit the conference room. As they tried to exit, the officer who patted me down earlier as I came in the venue, peeked his head through the door and basically said, "No. Please, do not come out."

[06:05:14] Seconds later there was an announcement on the P.A. system by watching an officer. He basically said, "Hey, there's been a suspect and a shooting outside the venue. We need to escort you out of the room."

CAMEROTA: Ben, you've been following the controversy about this event long before it was held this weekend. What was the community saying about this event?

FERGUSON: Yes, the community was not happy, really, about this event. They were very concerned about security around it in this neighborhood. I mean, this is a place where you have major shopping. You have a school next door. This building is actually controlled by an independent school district. And this event was in response to a pro-Prophet Mohammed event if January, which had a lot of controversy surrounding it. Some of the people were in support of al Qaeda and extremism. And a lot of people thought that was going to be a recruiting event for the next Boston-type bombing individual lone wolf in this country.

And so this proves today, we're going to have our event in the same exact place. We're going to put up this contest all over the world to depict the Prophet Mohammed, and you're going to win thousands of dollars if we pick your cartoon to be the best one. And we're going to do this and not power down.

And even though people are very much, you know, in favor of free speech, especially in Texas. There were a lot of people that were concerned about this event. You can see from the security that this event, you and I could not have attended this event yesterday just by walking up. They knew everyone who was inside that building. You had to pay in advance. You had to have a ticket in advance. And if you did not have that ticket, and you didn't belong there, you were not going to get in. That's how tight the security was, because people were concerned about this happening.

CAMEROTA: Christopher, let's talk about that security. Because you mentioned a SWAT team. What kind of security was on hand?

LETT: Yes. The security that you saw as you came in was very different than the security you saw after this threat was announced. So coming in, it looked like basically just a few dozen. A couple dozen, I should say, community officers in there, normal patrol cars. There were several perimeters of security around the venue.

As I approached on the road, once I got in, we had to go through metal detectors as well as a pat-down. And there was no reentry policy at all.

CAMEROTA: And Christopher, what do we know about the gunmen? What have authorities said about the gunmen? Because there was this interesting tweet for tweets that came out from an account believed to have some sort of ISIS link. And what's interesting and notable is the tweets that came out have just before the attack. So someone on Twitter knew this attack would be happening and tweeted it out before it occurred.

LETT: Like Ben said, there was a lot of buzz around this event in the community. So I can't suspect that what the -- now what the gunmen have been or who they are or what they did prior to the event. There's been little information given out about them so far. So we're waiting. Hopefully, those events will develop throughout the day.

CAMEROTA: Can we talk -- yes, go ahead, Ben.

FERGUSON: One of the things is that a lot of people need to realize about this event is you have one of the speakers that was at this event, the key note that was actually on an al Qaeda hit list, a most wanted list that al Qaeda puts out for the entire world for anyone that is a member of al Qaeda, sympathizes with al Qaeda, these are the people that we want dead.

And so when they have this speaker who is on the al Qaeda hit list, that's probably the reason why you heard about this much, you know, security. I would even rank this security with the multiple layers of perimeter, and once you're in, you can't leave, no re-entry to watching a campaign. Someone running for president; it's a very controlled environment. And it was because of the speaker, who was someone that al Qaeda wanted dead. And these two men very well could have been inspired by that al Qaeda hit list.

CAMEROTA: And Ben, can we talk about the group that organized this event, because they say that they are protecting freedom of speech and that they should be able to depict the Prophet Mohammed, even lambaste him. That's what our Constitution says. But of course, other people say this is even a hate group and that they're vehemently anti-Islam. What do you make of this group?

FERGUSON: I think this is a group, definitely hates al Qaeda, ISIS, ISIL extremist groups and those that do things like the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting. And they are very proud of that. They're not going to back down.

And their argument -- I had one person that's in this group on my show. He said, "Look, we are in America. We are not going to cower to al Qaeda or ISIS or anyone that wants to come after freedom of speech." And they held their rally. We believe it was to help, you know, actually find lone wolves in January. We're going to have our rally in response in the same building, the same place to let them know that we stand by free speech.

CAMEROTA: But you know...

[06:10:16] FERGUSON: We are not going to cancel events because we're afraid of al Qaeda-like attacks or terrorist attacks like they say is exactly what Americans saw last night. And we should not back down from these people.

CAMEROTA: Look, there are a lot of -- a lot of Americans hate ISIS and hate everything that they stand for.

FERGUSON: Sure.

CAMEROTA: But this group takes it a step further. I mean, they talk about Islam. They don't just talk about al Qaeda and ISIS. They talk about Islam, and they talk about it with sort of real repugnance, quite frankly. They say Islam -- I mean, I'm quoting what the keynote speaker...

FERGUSON: Sure.

CAMEROTA: ... Geert Wilders, said. He said, "Islam wants to rob us of our freedom and our liberties. Islam and freedom are totally incompatible. Our Judeo-Christian culture is far superior to the Islamic one." I mean, this is why there are critics of this group, because they don't just talk about terrorists. They talk about Islam.

FERGUSON: Well, you look at the local community. I mean, it's one of the weirdest things that I've ever seen. Which is you have two of these conferences. Look how far different they are. And yet, the local community said, "We don't really want both -- either of these -- one that's pro-Islam, one that's anti-Islam -- in our community." We even had Tea Party groups that were actually protesting this art exhibit last night. That's not something that you would see every day or assume would happen here. There were a lot of people that were very apprehensive and

concerned, saying just because you can doesn't mean that you should hold a rally like this.

And, obviously, both sides thought, "No, we're going to go all the way." And you saw these gunmen show up. And that's exactly what they want to do, is either kill as many people or stop this from happening, even though it was at the end of the night. And it seemed to be preplanned, like you said, from tweets we're seeing.

CAMEROTA: Right. Ben Ferguson, Christopher Lett, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY. Christopher, keep us posted as you get more developments from the scene there, please. Thank you.

LETT: Will do.

CAMEROTA: All right. So in addition to the shooting in Texas, the other big story that we're following are, of course, all of the events unfolding in Baltimore. And that's where we find Chris Cuomo this morning.

Chris, great to see you. So tell us what's happening on the ground.

CUOMO: Well, here in Baltimore, there's a new hope and a new tension. Here's the question: is the charging of six officers a step toward justice or a different form of bigotry?

Now you have religious leaders trying to close that gap by bringing people together before the city breaks apart again.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice-over): The city's mayor listing the week-long 10 p.m. curfew, optimistic about what comes next.

STEPHANIE RAWLINGS-BLAKE, MAYOR OF BALTIMORE: I think a lot of the unrest has been settled. Settled down in the sense of the protest. But that doesn't mean the work doesn't continue.

CUOMO: And so far, so good. Thousands gathering in front of City Hall Sunday, a sea of people with different religious briefs and background together at this interfaith rally organized by the church.

PASTOR JAMAL BRYANT, EMPOWERMENT TEMPLE AME CHURCH: We have Buddhists. We have but Catholics. We had Jews, all coming together, fighting for one Baltimore to come together.

CUOMO: And the 4,000 National Guard troops spread throughout Baltimore met with praise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Thank you for everything you did.

CUOMO: And prayer as the governor delivered the orders for them to withdraw. GOV. LARRY HOGAN, MARYLAND: It's not going to happen

instantaneously. It's going to take a couple of days to get everybody out. We had to build an entire city to save the city.

CUOMO: However, the economic impact of Monday's riots is staggering. Two hundred businesses destroyed by flames or looting. Hundreds of millions of dollars and revenue lost, but Mondawmin Mall where it all started, bounces back.

RAWLINGS-BLAKE: It is such a dramatic difference from where it was on Monday. I'm just so grateful, because it shows the resiliency of our city.

CUOMO: Sunday's rally also being deemed a celebration after the announcement of the arrest and indictment for all six officers involved in the death of Freddie Gray.

MARILYN MOSBY, STATE'S ATTORNEY: The medical examiner's determination that Mr. Gray's death was a homicide, which we received today, has led us to believe that we have probable cause to file criminal charges.

CUOMO: Signifying for many, one step toward the justice they're calling for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: The focus, though, right now is on Marilyn Mosby, practically and politically, the Baltimore attorney that brought criminal charges -- and quickly -- against all six police officer involved in the Freddie Gray incident.

She and her husband Nick, who happens to be a councilman for the area where Gray was arrested, this couple is now suddenly at the center of a national moment.

We have CNN national correspondent Sara Sidner, spoke exclusively with the Mosbys. And it's a real plus-minus for them. She's getting celebrated for bringing these charges by one part of the community. The other part of the community now says she has a conflict of interest, that this is pandering. Real mixed bag, but a lot of attention.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. For the both of them, really. I mean, when you think about it, he's a councilman. He helps make the laws, as she put it. And she is the lead prosecutor. She helps enforce the law.

[06:15:06] So, of course, they're going to be expecting to have a bit of a conflict there with people looking at them and really, really focusing in on who they are as much as what they do. They're ready for it. We talked to them at length yesterday. They brought their young girls; they have two young girls.

One of the things that she said, and they spoke to this idea of a conflict. The police union had brought that up, saying that they believe there is a conflict of interest. And they really respond to that, she in particular. Here's what she had to say about any conflict in her mind.

She lives in West Baltimore. Some people have said, "You live in that community. How can you prosecute the people that you live around, never mind the police officers that you work with." Here's what she had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

M. MOSBY Absolutely.

NICK MOSBY, BALTIMORE COUNCILMAN: Totally.

M. MOSBY: I mean, as I said before, you makes the laws; I enforce them. There is no conflict of interest. I mean, I'm going to prosecute. I'm the Baltimore City state's attorney. My jurisdiction covers every district in Baltimore City. I have -- there's a number of crimes that take place in Baltimore City, and unfortunately, in the district that we live. Where is the conflict?

N. MOSBY: Yes.

M. MOSBY: But I have to take myself away from every case or crime that takes place in West Baltimore? That makes absolutely no sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: So she also addressed people talking about the conflict between -- you know, her husband is a councilman, and they have some powerful friends, as well. But she says, "Look, I am the prosecutor. I'm going to do my job. I have integrity."

So a lot of people are going to watch them. A lot of people are going to see how this pans out. But the community, we watched a few people just randomly come up to her and thank her. So the black community is very happy with the decision she's made. A lot of people are waiting to see what the outcome is.

CUOMO: She's got some good ammo with conflict also, though, is that if she hadn't charged and people said she has cops in her background. I think, like two generations...

SIDNER: Yes.

CUOMO: ... of cops, so she's got a lot of tentacles coming out on both sides of the situation. But it will all be about whether or not she can make the case.

SIDNER: That's right.

CUOMO: Now this was a very important conversation to have. Sara actually really got a full sense of who they are and what their motivations and aspirations are. And Sara is going to give us of that in the next hour. But right now, Alisyn, let's get back to you for the news.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris, we'll look forward to all of that. Thanks so much from there.

Other news to tell you about. In Israel, a demonstration against alleged police brutality turns violent, at least 57 officers and a dozen protestors injured. The violence sparked by video of police beating up an Ethiopian-Israeli soldier in uniform. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meeting with community leaders to try and ease these tension.

And at least 100 U.S. Marines delivering much-needed humanitarian aid to remote parts of Nepal ripped apart by that devastating earthquake. This comes as Nepal bans large jets delivering help from the country's main airport because of runway damage. The death toll hitting more than 7,000 victims. But people still miraculously being pulled from the wreckage. A 101-year-old man was rescued Saturday after being trapped under the rubble for one week.

Retired neurosurgeon Ben Carson making his shift into politics official. The Republican made his presidential intentions clear in an interview last night. He'll make it truly official in a speech later this morning in his hometown of Detroit. And former Hewlett-Packard chief executive Carly Fiorina expected to announce her own Republican bid for the White House about an hour from now.

All right. Let's go back outside to Chris Cuomo on the streets of Baltimore for us -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Alisyn. So the big issue is that Baltimore's top prosecutor is refusing to step down from the Freddie Gray case, despite critics who claim she has a conflict of interest. Now practically, that is the easy obstacle. The real challenge for the prosecutor will be making the case. Charging, OK, but all six officers, can she make the case? We'll test it when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:22:40] CUOMO: So protesters here are celebrating charges against six Baltimore police officers in connection with the death of Freddie Gray. But did the prosecutor do the right thing politically and legally?

Let's discuss with people who understand the situation very well: Mark Puente, investigative reporter for "The Baltimore Sun" and Neil Franklin, veteran of the Maryland State Police and Baltimore Police Departments. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

Let's start with just the obvious question. What do you think of the charges? Do you think that this case can be made?

MARK PUENTE, "BALTIMORE SUN": Well, I think that the case can be made. I think what's different in this particular instance is that we're not used to seeing this so quickly, the charges so quickly in a case involving police officers. What we're used to seeing across the country is it going straight

to a grand jury after a few weeks of investigation. Now, for the average citizen, being investigated for criminal activity, this is the norm.

CUOMO: The prosecutor does not have to use a grand jury. It's one of the options.

PUENTE: Absolutely.

CUOMO: She can just also, or he or she can do what they did here, which is just write up their own felony warrant from their own investigation.

PUENTE: Right.

CUOMO: One is not more legal than the other.

PUENTE: Right. So what we have to remember is that the police are citizens first. And I think that's what the state's attorney is trying to show and demonstrate to the people, not just Baltimore City but across the country. They're citizens first, so that's the difference.

In a normal police officer -- case where a police officer is being investigated, yes, you're looking at weeks of investigation. You're looking at it going straight to a grand jury. Just look at some of the recent cases that we've had, like Mike Brown.

CUOMO: Right. It also looks, Mark, like a typical citizen situation, in terms of how low the bar is for charges. You're just talking about probable cause here. It's not beyond a reasonable doubt.

However, these charges, what an array: false imprisonment, assault, but then all the way to depraved heart murder. That is a very sophisticated homicide charge, which is you use -- when someone sprays bullets into a place, and you're worried about being able to show specific intent to kill anyone, it's really just about killing everyone. Were you surprised by that charge?

NEIL FRANKLIN, FORMER MEMBER OF BALTIMORE POLICE DEPARTMENT: We weren't surprised by any charge or surprised how fast. Everybody was surprised how fast the charges came. You know, pundits were saying it was overcharged since she even announced the charges. Now, everybody is saying it's easy to charge somebody. Take them to grand jury to get them to back it up. Now she's got to prove her case and convict them.

CUOMO: Have you ever heard of another case against a cop for depraved heart murder, sometimes called depraved indifference or depraved mind?

FRANKLIN: No.

CUOMO: Never? FRANKLIN: No.

CUOMO: Have you ever heard of one?

PUENTE: I've never heard of it. And that's -- you know, the state's attorney that's her job, you know, to know what charges fit this particular case. And I think that what's important here is that the driver of the transport vehicle had many opportunities to assess and to render aid, to call for medical assistance for.

CUOMO: Do you think you'll be able to make the case on the basis of omission, things that this officer did not do alone or are you going to have to show that he did things that fall into this category that make it a culpable homicide?

[06:25:20] PUENTE: I think it's going to be a combination of both. Things that he did and things that he failed to do. At the end of the day, the driver of that transport van is responsible for the people in the back of that van.

CUOMO: Responsible, absolutely. Criminally responsible for the death of, causing the death of, much higher bar.

FRANKLIN: Well, "The Baltimore Sun" story yesterday pointed out we had a three-quarter investigation, and the term gialitis (ph) came out in that investigation, which is a common term that officers use if people get arrested and they fake injury. And Ms. Mosby cited that Officer Goodson had five opportunities to render aid, and he didn't. And how much did that play into it, people saying, "I'm hurt, I'm sick. I can't go to jail."

CUOMO: So now you get to whether or not this was a practical move by the prosecutor, that she can make the case, or political move that she made it. One of the things that comes up is, she has a conflict of interest. You know, her husband is the politician. She's from there. But she's also got, like...

PUENTE: What prosecutor doesn't have a conflict of interest?

CUOMO: Well, she's also got all these generations of cops in her family.

PUENTE: That's the other side of it. So this is what's really interesting here, as you look at case around the country, normally it's the other way around. The police officers are not in favor of bringing in an outside prosecutor.

CUOMO: Because they want one of their own.

PUENTE: They want one of their own. So there's always a conflict of interest somewhere along the lines.

But I mean, you're right. On both sides of the coin for her, she's from a family of law enforcement, of police officers, not just law enforcement. Police officers. And on the other side of the coin, they're trying to say there's

conflict of interest regarding her relationships here in Baltimore City.

CUOMO: All I'm saying is that this is one of these cases where the injuries to Freddie Gray -- the spine break and the crushed larynx -- yes, it was obvious for everybody to say those would be tough to self-inflict. And yet you're going to have to show that officers did specific things to make those injuries happen. That's a pretty high bar.

PUENTE: So many charges against a few of the officers were just misdemeanors: the assault.

CUOMO: That's right.

PUENTE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CUOMO: And some say, well, that's a political play, that you'll get them on something, because the bar is so low. But it's really about that high bar of accountability. It could go either way, he...

FRANKLIN: Remember, he never should have been arrested in the first place. I'm not hearing much conversation of that.

CUOMO: Why should he never have been arrested?

FRANKLIN: There was no probable cause for the arrest.

CUOMO: Well, what if -- sir, I don't know the facts. You may know them better than I do. Have you heard what was happening at the stop?

PUENTE: Here's what she said. Here's what she said. The evidence that she has, there was reasonable suspicion according to case law to pursue: high crime area. He made eye contact. He ran unprovoked. And therefore, that's a reasonable suspicion to pursue, to stop, to investigate a little bit further.

They said initially -- the police said they found an illegal knife, which is a spring-loaded knife, a switch blade. If that were the case, now you've got probable cause for an arrest. That was not the case. It was a legal knife.

CUOMO: Right.

PUENTE: It was not a switchblade.

CUOMO: No, I heard what she said. But I'm saying she has to know something else about that stop, that they must have thought -- they knew the drug activity. Him and the other guy, may have been a drug transaction. But be that as it may, absolutely.

PUENTE: Nothing in the police report about that. And if that was the case, it should be in that report. CUOMO: True. But even still, why they stopped him does not

function into the criminal charges against what actually caused his death as a homicide. One doesn't have to do with the other.

Before we go, real quickly, I just want to throw up a poll so that you can understand what's going on here. The "Wall Street Journal" and NBC did this poll. It's not just about the criminal charges. It's about what they mean to society. And look at the different in race about what people think is causing the unrest here.

For all the talk we just did, about all the facts and circumstances here, blacks think it's about how the cops treat them. And whites think that this was an excuse to engage in violence. Are you shocked by that?

FRANKLIN: It's going on across the country right now, and it probably won't go away any time soon.

CUOMO: Same for you? It's a very, very big problem. Obviously, it's blacks who are experiencing this interaction with the police. And what they view is over-policing, you know, in the black community. Whites don't experience that.

CUOMO: And we see it in the numbers. And to be honest there, Alisyn, as we get out of this situation, there are bigger issues here that drive these perceptions. This case is just a little window into a very big house of circumstances.

Neil, thank you very much.

FRANKLIN: Thank you.

CUOMO: Mark.

PUENTE: Thank you.

CUOMO: Appreciate it.

Alisyn, back to you.

CAMEROTA: OK. Chris. We'll be checking in with you in Baltimore throughout the show, but we do have some breaking news from Texas. Gunfire at a free-speech event featuring anti-Islam activists and a Prophet Mohammed cartoon contest. We're talking a closer look at what happened and why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)