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Terror Suspect Shot Dead in Boston; Bill Ends NSA Bulk Collection of Phone Metadata; Poll: Obama Job Approval Takes a Dive; Victim's Blood Found on D.C. Murder Suspect; Desperate Search for Capsized Ship Survivors; Gun Violence on the Rise in NYC. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired June 03, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man fatally gunned down by Boston Police...

[05:59:10] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... may have been part of an ISIS terror cell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was making threats to police officers.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The issue of bulk collection of phone data...

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: No listings of phone calls to law-abiding citizens, none of that is going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terrorists aren't going away. America is still their target.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: A potentially major development in the Washington quadruple murder case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Traces of blood from at least one of the murder victims were found.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Blood splatter evidence on clothing. That's pretty hard to argue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Violence and deadly crime in some places on the rise.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK: There has been obviously, an uptick in homicides and shootings.

VAN JONES, CNN COMMENTATOR: People want better policing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, June 3, 6 a.m. in the East. And we do have news of another Boston terror investigation. Radicalized by ISIS and part of a wider investigation, officials say both of those descriptions apply to a man who was shot and killed by police in Boston after charging them with a military-style knife. This man was under surveillance for years after social media threats against police.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Police also arresting another man this morning just outside of Boston as part of the same investigation. So were these suspects connected to terrorists?

Let's begin our coverage with CNN's Alexandra Field. She is live in Boston for us.

What do we know at this hour, Adele -- Alexandra?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn and Chris.

Police have been talking to at least two people believed to be associates of Usaama Rahim. They're hoping that these people could be key in helping them to further understand what Rahim may have been plotting; who he could have been plotting with.

We do know that law enforcement considered him a threat. Enough so that they were following him 24 hours a day before that deadly shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (voice-over): Today an Everett, Massachusetts, man in custody. Police making the arrest last night in connection with the fatal shooting of a terror shooting of a terror suspect in Boston by police Tuesday morning.

It all began around 7 in the morning when the FBI and Boston Police descended on this CVS, aiming to question the suspect, 26-year- old Usaama Rahim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we have a gentleman, black male, 6 feet, coming out now with a knife.

FIELD: Rahim had been under 24-hour surveillance by the Joint Terrorism Task Force, radicalized according to one official, by ISIS and other extremist influences.

The FBI says Rahim made threats against police on social media.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, there's shots fired, unit shots fired.

FIELD: When officers approached him, Rahim lunged at them with this this knife, authorities say, before a federal agent and Boston Police officer fired, hitting him in the torso and abdomen.

WILLIAM EVANS, BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: The officers, again, gave several commands for him to drop the weapon. And unfortunately, he came at the officers and, you know, they did what they were trained to do. And unfortunately, they had to take a life, and that's never an easy decision for an officer to do.

FIELD: Rahim's brother, an imam at a mosque in California, paints a different picture, saying on social media that his younger brother was on his cell phone with their father waiting for the bus when he was confronted by police and shot in the back three times. He says his brother's last words were, "I can't breathe."

The shooting is now under investigation, and Boston Police say they have a video documenting the entire event.

DANIEL CONLEY, SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We saw the video. It appears that the law enforcement officers were backing away before they exercised deadly force.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: So that video should certainly be key to answering a lot of questions about what exactly went down outside of that CVS. It is not being released publicly at this time, which is normal during the course of an investigation like this.

But Boston Police have invited a select group of Muslim and black community leaders to police headquarters. They will be showing them that video privately. They say it's an effort to maintain accountability and transparency here -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: That's an interesting move, and it will be interesting to see what is on that video.

Alexandra, thank you for that.

Well, the White House saying a critical surveillance tool for tracking terrorists is back in place this morning. President Obama wasting no time signing the USA Freedom Act into law. It revives most of what died on Monday in that Senate stalemate. But the new law comes with new restrictions.

CNN's Dana Bash is live in Washington with that part of the story.

Good morning, Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

You're right: you cut through all the drama and the politics, at its core, this law contains the first major changes to the Patriot Act since 9/11, especially on those controversial surveillance programs. And here's some of those changes.

For the first time, telecommunications companies, not the government, will store the data collected in the dragnet program. And for the government to access that data, a warrant will be required. And the court that oversea sees all that, the so-called FISA court, which is now top secret and classified, will be more transparent.

Now, the reforms in this bill, at least the process, was really what the public is screaming for. Bipartisan compromise. This is a product of negotiations between the White House, some of the most liberal and conservative members of the House, as well. It was really an unusual alliance.

CAMEROTA: But the man who usually cuts deals with the White House, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, he strongly objected. He argued that it weakens programs to the point where it threatens national security. But yesterday, his attempts to change the bill failed. And that's why it went to the White House for the president's signature.

Now, one last thing. McConnell also miscalculated in the determination of his junior colleague from Kentucky, Rand Paul, to do whatever it takes to derails these data collection programs. And because of that, remember they went dark on Sunday midnight when they expired. Now, because of technical and logistical reasons legally, Chris, we're told that it could be three or four days to get those programs back up and running.

[06:05:15] CUOMO: All right. Good insight there, Dana, as always. Appreciate it.

All right. So let's get some analysis on these big headlines this morning with Phil Mudd, CIA counterterrorism analyst and a former CIA counterterrorism official.

Let's start with this big arrest up in Boston. We now hear of another arrest this morning related to the larger investigation. It seems to have something to do with threats made against officer safety. What do you make of it?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Look, we've been seeing a lot of these cases across America. Let's bookend a few cases. We saw that Garland, Texas, shooting a few weeks ago. Clearly, those guys were not under surveillance. Otherwise, it would not have made it to that Mohammed cartoon event.

Contrast that to what we've just seen in Boston, and there are some clues for a counterterrorism guy to tell you why this one is so high end, sort of tiered at the top tier, compared to Garland.

First, you have these guys under surveillance. This is not common in the counterterrorism world, because it is so inefficient to put eyes on a subject for so long.

CUOMO: Labor intensive.

MUDD: Labor intensive. A lot different than looking at what you're saying on Facebook.

No. 2, the FBI is talking about the level of alarm in this case after it went down. Clearly, something happened.

CUOMO: Those words, even, to you: "level of alarm."

MUDD: That's correct. Clearly, something happened that led them to go up and talk to this fellow. They weren't just asking what he bought at 7-Eleven. Something led them to say, "After all this investigation, with the level of surveillance we have on him, we've got to go say something to him."

So there's something in this case, in my judgment, that's going to come to light in the next few days that tells you why it's so serious.

CUOMO: We know it's social-media-related. We know it has something to do with officers' safety. Why approach him at a bus stop?

MUDD: I suspect, because they felt that they couldn't wait any longer, something happened in the previous days. They were looking for a situation they could control to ensure other people weren't around in case it went ugly, as it did. But something triggered within -- within, let's say, 48, 72 hours before for them to say, "We can't sit on this one any longer."

You have a classic balance in this case. Let me keep collecting so I ensure I know what's going on here. What's the extent of the conspiracy? the balance is always, regardless of the case, "I can't sacrifice public safety to keep learning more about the case." In this case, they said public safety trumps.

CUOMO: A little bit public reaction to this early on was, "Oh, no, law enforcement kills another man who didn't have a gun. This man had a knife." To be very clear, the FBI has every interest in keeping someone like this alive to talk to them. Right?

MUDD: Yes. Especially because you're talking about potential connections with ISIS. When you're an intel guy, as I was, I joined the FBI in 2005. And I was a career intel guy. Your first question is, and if you, Chris Cuomo, unsurprisingly show up as a subject in an investigation -- I'm not saying you aren't -- but if you show up, my first question as an intel guy isn't simply "Who is Chris Cuomo?" My question is, if I ever take this to a federal court, I want to take the whole spider web down. I want to take who gave them money, who provided the inspiration, because if I take you down too fast and I leave the rest of the spider web out -- and we've seen this in cases -- they will resuscitate the case.

CUOMO: OK. So let me make something productive out of that shot you just took.

As a segue into another big headline this morning, because we have to wait for more information from authorities about why they took these guys down in Boston the way they did and when they did, the surveillance bill that was just passed. The push for changing it was too much of an invasion of the individual's privacy. Metadata is not necessary. What do you make of the changes that were put in? Are there enough tools, and was this a right change?

MUDD: There are enough tools. I think what's happening here is both professional, in other words, looking at this saying what does it mean for my profession of intelligence. It's going to make the profession a little bit less efficient. If you own all the data, you don't require a court order to go to a bunch of telephone companies and pick it up. You want to tell me that's less efficient than what we have?

CUOMO: Were you listening to my phone calls? Were you doing things that you were not supposed to do because you had control of the data?

MUDD: Of course not. I mean, you've got -- you've got an inspector general process. You've got the media. You've got congressional oversight. You've got laws that control what you do with that metadata.

That said, you know, my professional judgment is I thought we were pretty good with the data. What am I supposed to say? I'm a CIA guy.

There's a broader question here that I think was inevitable in this case in 2015. That is all the programs we had, the interrogation of al Qaeda guys at CIA black sites, the metadata program, that was a reaction not just by security agencies, not just by the Congress, by the American people saying, "We don't want this event again." It's almost inevitable that the pendulum swings back.

CUOMO: But the polls that have come out, over 50 percent, over 55 percent, people want surveillance programs in place.

MUDD: I'm not sure people are differentiating the way Congress is. Congress is saying we would be -- surveillance is OK. We'll be more comfortable if the telephone companies owned it and you went to a court to get it, rather than the government own it.

[06:10:05] CUOMO: So bottom line, you're saying with what we saw go down in Boston, that the process of figuring out who this guy at the bus stop was talking to will be less efficient now, because they don't have all the metadata? They need a warrant, and they need to talk to...

MUDD: It's got to be less efficient. But again, it's inevitable. In the case of -- what we saw after 9/11, when I was first briefed in to some of the programs we had after 9/11, even I back then in that environment stepped back and said, "Whoa, this dog is going to come home to bite us some day."

And I think at some point -- and I think you had the Congress rightfully say, "We need a national debate about some of these programs." Because democratic societies don't like secret agencies. And that national debate happened this week in the Congress.

CUOMO: So to mash metaphors, you had a dog that came back to bite you. And now the question is, will this dog hunt. We'll see if they have enough tools to get it done going forward.

MUDD: I like it.

CUOMO: Philip Mudd, thank you, as always. CAMEROTA: Way to run with the metaphor, Chris. I like it.

Well, there's sobering new CNN/ORC poll numbers for President Obama about how he's handling his job. Senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta joins us now with the new numbers.

What are they saying, Jim?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, President Obama's approval numbers have taken a hit, according to our latest CNN/ORC poll. After the president's poll numbers were approaching that coveted 50 percent range earlier this year, public satisfaction with the job he is doing is sliding once again. Take a look at the number there. How the president is handling his job right now, 45 percent approve, 52 percent disapprove.

Those numbers match almost how Americans feel about the most important issue they say is facing the country now, the economy. But the big drag on the president's approval numbers, you're seeing one of them right there. ISIS and government surveillance. Roughly two- thirds of Americans don't approve of the way he's handled those issues. The ISIS number just as bad there: 68 percent disapprove, 32 percent disapprove [SIC].

Handling government surveillance, which is the big story in the news, 67 percent disapprove. Only 29 percent of Americans approve of the job he's doing there, according to our poll.

But the most surprising number of the morning, guys, deals with how the public views President Obama's predecessor, President George W. Bush. Take a look at this. The opinion of George W. Bush, favorable, 52 percent; unfavorable 43 percent. That is his highest approval number since 2005 and perhaps offers reassurance to Jeb that perhaps the Bush name is on the mend, Chris.

That one thing that he'd been worried about so much. You know, his bumper sticker says "Jeb." It doesn't say "Bush." Perhaps he can put the Bush name up there, too. The approval numbers are getting a bit better. And for his father, as well. The numbers are pretty terrific right now. 64 percent right now.

CUOMO: That's good to hear. You want the legacy to be strong, especially for George H.W. Bush. It's always a plus and minus with a name, Jim. Always a plus and minus.

ACOSTA: That's right.

CUOMO: All right. Another big development for you this morning in the murder of a wealthy Washington, D.C., family and their nanny. Investigators say they have new evidence, DNA that connects suspect Daron Wint to the deceased.

Let's get right to CNN's Joe Johns for the latest. We've got open questions like what do we know about his role, who else he may have been with, and then, of course, the basis for the DNA. JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Only a little bit more here. The

latest clue made public in the case tends to point directly toward the only suspect authorities already have in custody, even though police said Daron Wint, the suspect in the mansion murders, at a house just within walking distance from the home of Vice President Biden, had to have had help to pull it off.

Two law enforcement officials told CNN's Evan Perez and Pamela Brown that traces of blood found on a shoe Wint was wearing matched the blood of one of the victims in the murders. It's not clear which victim's blood was found on the shoe.

No other suspect has been named by authorities. There were four victims, including American Iron Works CEO Savvas Savopoulos, his wife Amy, their 10-year-old son, and their housekeeper.

Meanwhile, a Washington local station, WTTG, reported police were back at the house on Tuesday, studying a safe in the garage and taking pictures of it. Authorities had said $40,000 Savvas Savopoulos requested while he and his family were being held captive in the house had been left in the garage before it was taken away by the alleged killer.

The Savopoulos family's two teenage daughters were away at boarding school at the time of the murders. The family funeral was earlier this week in a Greek Orthodox cathedral in Washington -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Such a terrible story, Joe. Thank you for the update.

Well, a desperate search stretching into a second day for survivors of Tuesday's deadly cruise ship tragedy in China. Rescuers finding another survivor, bringing the total to 15. With more than 450 people aboard, hopes fading that many more will be found alive inside that capsized ship.

CNN's David McKenzie is live in China for us this morning with the latest on the search -- David.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, the frantic search continues. They're now cutting open the hull of that cruise ship, trying to get at anyone who might have survived in air pockets in this horrible tragedy here in China.

I'm standing where families are expected in the coming hours to gather to see if they can get any sign that their loved ones might have survived. Only 15 people pulled from that vessel, though, and hundreds still missing.

[06:15:04] I spoke to one man who's on the bus traveling here. Both his mother and his father, both elderly, were on that ship on their vacation cruise, the Yangtze River. He says he hopes he can get any news on them. And they're frustrated right now, the family members, because they don't have the information.

The search effort is continuing in that they're bringing large vessels to raise that boat out of the Yangtze River and try to get at it in any way they can to see if there are any survivors and also just to start the recovery process -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, David, thank you very much. We'll check back with you later in the show.

Another headline for you. A woman who was mauled to death by a lion at a wildlife park in South Africa has been identified. She is 22-year-old Katherine Chappell of Rye, New York. She was attacked through an open window in her vehicle as she was taking pictures. Her tour operator was also badly injured trying to free her. Witnesses honked their horns in vain, trying to get Chappell to pay attention as the lion approached.

CAMEROTA: That's so terrible.

Well, Secretary of State John Kerry is in good condition this morning, recovering from surgery to repair a fractured femur in his right leg. Kerry's doctors say his hospital stay will be short, and his recovery should not interfere with official duties. That means he should be able to engage in the Iran nuclear talks. The 71-year-old Kerry broke his leg Sunday while biking in the Swiss Alps.

CUOMO: Interpol, the international police organization, is issuing red notices for two former FIFA officials and four corporate executives wanted in the U.S. for racketeering, conspiracy and corruption. Now FIFA president Sepp Blatter is stepping down just four days after he was reelected to a fifth term. It was odd to many that the head of FIFA had avoided the net, and now the FBI is said to be zeroing in on Blatter in a corruption case.

CAMEROTA: Why did he go through the election?

CUOMO: How did he win the election?

CAMEROTA: Right. Another good question. Just four days later, everything has turned.

Well, meanwhile, violent crime is spiking in big cities across the country. Why is that happening? We'll debate it.

CUOMO: And you're going to love this one. This Michigan town has to settle a case. They're going to dole out more than a million dollars because of a police beating settlement, but how they plan on footing the bill has people angry. We have the mayor on. We test, you decide.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:20:54] DE BLASIO: There has been obviously an uptick in homicides and shootings. It is something we take very, very seriously. It's something we're addressing right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CAMEROTA: That was New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio addressing

the alarming rise in gun violence in his city and around the country. He says it's a result of gang activity.

What do other experts think? Let's bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective Harry Houck; and CNN political commentator and host for "Huff Post Live," Marc Lamont Hill.

Gentlemen, great to see you guys.

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning to both of you.

CAMEROTA: Harry, I want to start with you, and I want to put up some statistics. These were for New York City, about the gun violence on the rise. However, it's happening in big cities all around the country. This is just one example.

Murders this year are up 19.5 percent. Shooting victims, they're seeing more of, up by 9.3 percent. Shooting incidents up 8.9 percent.

You think there's a simple explanation.

HOUCK: Yes.

CAMEROTA: What is it?

HOUCK: Politicians.

CAMEROTA: What does that mean?

HOUCK: What it means is, look, Mr. de Blasio and his New York City council are handcuffing the police. They are not allowing them to do the job.

CAMEROTA: How so?

HOUCK: They're handcuffing the Stop and Frisk out there. Police -- their rhetoric has created an environment for police officers where they might be a little afraid to take some type of action, especially proactive action. All right? So that's why we've seen this uptick. Police officers don't believe that they're being backed by the politicians. And the new narrative is it's only bad guys killing bad guys.

Well, guess what? I was a cop when they had 2,000 homicides that year, and it was always bad guys shooting bad guys. But the problem is that when the bad guys shoot each other, like what happened in Queens this weekend...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: ... innocent people are killed.

CAMEROTA: OK. Marc, you say it's more complicated. MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. One, you

can't on the one hand say you listen to police and then telling you why this is happening and then discount the police commissioner, who's telling you the reasons is that it's gang activity.

CAMEROTA: What is the reason?

HILL: If you listen to the police, as Harry is doing to make that argument, they're also saying this isn't what's happening five years ago or two years ago. This is -- they're saying that this is an actual issue of gang violence, in particular, and also in very particular pockets, that it's not everywhere.

But even -- and also, I disagree with the idea that it's politicians that are handcuffing them. Remember, Stop and Frisk was deemed unconstitutional. So unless you're suggesting that police should ignore...

HOUCK: How some of it was perceived. Because police officers are still doing Stop and Frisk.

HILL: That's what I'm talking about.

HOUCK: But they're not doing the amount of Stop and Frisk that they had done before.

HILL: What I'm saying is the change isn't because law -- police officers just decided to do something different or because politicians did. Judges made a decision. You can't suggest the police should disregard the courts.

CAMEROTA: But Marc, I don't understand your point. Because if it's gang violence, well, then guns are up, violence is up. It's still a problem. You can't just say, "Well, it's just gang activity." And wouldn't Stop and Frisk also curtail the gang violence, with giving them fewer guns?

HILL: Right. Two things. One, I'm not saying that it's not important because it's gangs. I'm saying that it's not representative of the problem that he's talking about. Right?

There are oftentimes moments in major cities where gang violence upticks and it's not because...

HOUCK: Not like this.

HILL: Well...

HOUCK: This really -- these numbers are astronomical on what's going on right now out there.

HILL: They're actually not astronomical. It's 30 more than last year. That's not astronomical.

HOUCK: We can't -- that's a lot.

HILL: But it's not astronomical.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: No, but the point is that it's reversing a trend.

HOUCK: It's only six months of the year.

CAMEROTA: I mean, New York City was held up as the gold standard for how to fight crime, because for 20 years, crime went down in this No. 1 city. And now it's ticking up again. That's why it's so significant.

HOUCK: They're taking away from what works. All right? It worked for the last I don't know how many years. I remember when Police Commissioner Bratton came in here and Giuliani came in here. They took the -- when I first became a cop in 1982 here in New York City, we weren't allowed to make drug arrests. Drug dealers used to just deal drugs right in front of us. We were not allowed to make them. Narcotics only. All right? That was a Democratic, you know, administration at the time. All right. Giuliani comes in, everything changed. You know, you're a cop, make an arrest.

HILL: Here's my only point.

HOUCK: Yes.

HILL: Because I don't want to suggest that -- I don't want to suggest that Stop and Frisk, if we were to do it wholesale, wouldn't drop some of these numbers. I can see that it would. There's no point -- there's no disagreement about that. But so would locking up everybody. Right? So would going to schools and -- you could find predictors.

[06:25:02] HOUCK: Well, now come on. You're being hyperbolic.

HILL: I'm not being hyperbolic. I'm giving you a hypothetical, a reductio ad absurdum. I'm saying if we were to take this to the extreme example, we could find ways to stop crime. But the things we have to balance is fighting crime and balancing civil liberties.

CAMEROTA: Well, sure.

HILL: I don't want to live in a world...

HOUCK: But there's no balance here right now. We have people that are scared to death in their own neighborhoods. And these are the neighborhoods that actually needed Stop and Frisk.

The front page of "The New York Post" the other day, people screaming, "We want Stop and Frisk back in our neighborhoods." All right? These are black people, all right, good people who go to work. They're having their children that are being shot when gangsters are shooting at each other back and forth.

CAMEROTA: Marc, do you accept that Stop and Frisk, maybe there's a way to modify it? Maybe there -- since it seems as though... HILL: No.

CAMEROTA: ... when Stop and Frisk was curtailed, the gun violence went up. It does seem as though there's a connection between those two. Do you think there's a connection?

HILL: No, I'm saying I believe Stop and Frisk to be unconstitutional and unhelpful.

HOUCK: So...

CAMEROTA: Is there a way to make it better?

HILL: I think there's a way to.

HOUCK: But there's not, though.

HILL: I think there's a way to police better. And I think what we're seeing is right now a transition period where we've gotten rid of something that may have been effective but not -- but not healthy for the community. And now we're trying to find a new model.

And so I think we need to find that model. And maybe there will be a slight uptick, but that doesn't mean that we go back to something that fundamentally was terrorizing a whole bunch of folks.

CAMEROTA: On the flip side, I want to move to what the findings have been in Missouri.

HILL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Because this also is true of New York. Something -- basically, this is, I think, a bomb shell. They found out that police do pull over black motorists and black pedestrians more often than whites for random searches. Yet...

HOUCK: But we don't know for random searches.

CAMEROTA: Whatever reason. They pull over black people more and search them more. And yet, more contraband is found on white motorists and white pedestrians. How do you explain that.

HOUCK: You're twice as likely to be arrested if you're white through that statistics. I see it right here. This is right here.

CAMEROTA: But you're not.

HILL: That's not true.

HOUCK: Look at the statistics right here.

CAMEROTA: But they're -- but they're pulling over people who are black and finding the crime with whites.

HILL: That supports the point. HOUCK: No, it doesn't. Basically, what I'm looking at here is,

all right, why were these people pulled over? You know, you're a guy who likes data. All right? There isn't enough data here. And even this report indicates that it does not indicate racial bias. It's in the bottom of this report.

CAMEROTA: But it can't only be blacks that have broken taillights. It can't only be blacks that have broken taillights.

HOUCK: We don't know. Is it broken taillights or is it somebody committed a crime and they fit the description? There are 50 to 100...

HILL: We need more black guys.

HOUCK: Fifty to 100 ways you could be pulled over.

HILL: Can I just make a point? OK. One thing, just to put my social scientist hat on. No study can ever conclusively say it's about racial bias. There are certain things that are predictors of it or that correlate.

So the fact that that study says that doesn't actually advance the bar at all, one way or the other.

HOUCK: You're also making the assumption.

CAMEROTA: Final point, Marc.

HILL: There are many studies, from the ACLU study in New Jersey in the '90s and 2000s to this one, that all show the same thing.

HOUCK: ACLU? You really can't trust that.

HILL: No, but you can trust the social scientists that they depended on, and you can look at the numbers and bear it out. It's not like -- it wasn't communists doing the studies.

CAMEROTA: Yes, OK, OK.

HILL: The point is -- is that there are -- there are considerable -- there's considerable bodies of data that show that black people are more likely to get pulled over, and it's often for pretext stops. You know, we're all bad drivers. If I were to follow Harry around for an hour, I could find a reason to pull him over. You, me, certainly Chris. But nevertheless, it's black people who are always getting pulled over. That suggests there is a racial component to this.

CAMEROTA: There's a lot to discuss on all of this. I'm glad we're doing it. Marc Lamont Hill, Harry Houck...

HOUCK: Thanks for having us.

CAMEROTA: ... thanks for being here.

Let's get over to the bad driver -- Chris.

CUOMO: Until the end, I can't think of a more useful conversation on this issue than you guys just had. You really present both sides so well, and Alisyn, you asked all the right questions. I mean, it was such an important conversation. Good to have it here on NEW DAY.

And you can follow me drive whenever you want.

When we come back, Adrian Peterson is back on the field for the Minnesota Vikings following a suspension for abusing his son. The reaction from him that you will want to hear, ahead.

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