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Protests Demand Firing of Officer for Treatment of Kids at Pool; Citizens Take Tamir Rice Case into Their Own Hands; Massive Manhunt for Prison Break Escapees; Obama Admits 'No Complete Strategy' to Train Iraqis; U.S. Raid Uncovers ISIS Leadership Intelligence. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired June 09, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On your face!

[05:58:45] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he deserves a medal for what he did.

JAHDA BAKARI, PRESENT AT POOL PARTY WHEN POLICE ARRIVED: He hit me in the face when I tried helping the girl. And then when two more guys tried helping the girl, he pulled his firearm.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are killers on the loose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't cut through a steel wall without somebody hearing it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials questioning a female prison employee.

ANDREW CUOMO, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: They had to have the assistance of someone.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Dozens of aviation workers on terror watch lists.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least 73 people with links to terrorism.

BLITZER: Allowing them to work in secure areas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This really speaks to the issue of the insider threat.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't yet have complete strategy.

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: We're constantly evaluating now we're going to increase and ramp up the training and equipping of Iraqi security forces.

REP. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: It's our responsibility and our constitutional obligation as a Congress to declare war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It's Tuesday, June 9, 6 a.m. in the East, and we do have breaking news.

Hundreds taking to the streets to protest the actions of the now- suspended Texas police officer, drawing a gun on unarmed teens at a pool party, slamming a 14-year-old in a bikini to the ground.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Demonstrators are calling for that officer to be fired. He was placed on administrative leave since the video first surfaced. This as there are major developments in two other police-involved shootings.

Let's begin our coverage with CNN's Nick Valencia. He is live for us in McKinney, Texas. What is the latest, Nick?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Alisyn.

Fresh calls this morning from community residents for that officer, Eric Casebolt, to resign or be fired. We were there last night, on Monday, when hundreds took to the streets to protest what they called excessive force by police officers within McKinney Police Department, as well as police brutality.

Even still, community reaction is mixed, with many of the residents that we spoke to in that subdivision defending the officer's actions. Well, the teens at that party see it a little differently, including the young man who captured that scene that you're watching there on your TV screens right now, saying that it was about race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was one of the only white people in the area when it was -- when that was happening. And you can see in part of the video where he tells us to sit down. And he kind of, like, skips over me and tells all my African-American friends to go sit down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Fourteen-year-old Jahda Bakari is another one of the girls that you see there in the video. She says when Casebolt unholstered his weapon, it's a memory she won't soon forget.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAKARI: The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) could still happen again. He hit me in the face when I tried helping the girl. And then when two more guys tried helping the girl, he pulled his firearm out.

The only reason I did not run away is because I was frozen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: And we heard last night from the police union in McKinney, who released a statement saying that that incident on Friday was absolutely not motivated by race. They went on to say that no one in the McKinney Police Department practices racially biased policing -- Chris.

C. CUOMO: All right, Polo [SIC]. Thank you very much. We'll stay on that.

But we want to take you to Cleveland, and that's a related case, where community leaders are taking justice into their own hands following the police shooting of a 12-year-old. They say they do not trust the prosecutor and are trying to use an obscure Ohio law to go straight to a judge, seeking murder charges against the officers involved in that death.

CNN's Martin Savidge joins us live with the latest -- Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, Chris.

This is really a very interesting development in this case. The Tamir Rice case, if you're not familiar with it, the 12-year-old in Cleveland who was shot very quickly by police officers after they arrived on scene. It was all captured on surveillance video. The youth was in a park. He was playing with a gun that looked extremely real. OK. That's the point.

That happened last November. And the family members of Tamir Rice and many in the community are frustrated at how long it's taken for the investigation and what they hope will be the charges brought against the officers in this case. So frustrated that they're going to use this rare law that's in the state books in Ohio that will allow anyone who essentially knows the facts of this case to go to a judge -- in this case, a municipal judge -- and ask for charges to be brought.

The charges that they're asking for in this case, they're asking for murder and for attempted murder. And they're going after the officer who --that's Timothy Loehmann -- who fired the shot; also his partner in this particular incident.

What makes this really interesting is, of course, the fact that, as you point out, there seems to be a growing distrust, especially in the minority communities, of the grand jury process here. And so they see this as a way to circumvent it.

However, it really isn't. Because under the state constitution in Ohio, you still have the right to have the evidence heard in your case by a grand jury. It's likely going to go to the grand jury anyway, despite this.

Let me give you the statement that's put out by the prosecutor in this particular case. And he says, "Once the investigation is complete, and the death of Tamir Rice is not at this time, all evidence and expert analysis will be presented to the grand jury. The grand jury in Cuyahoga County, by the policy of the county prosecutor's office, ultimately makes the charging decision in all fatal use deadly force cases that involve law enforcement officers."

A news conference coming out of Cleveland later this morning. We'll have that later today -- Chris.

PEREIRA: I'll take it here, Martin. Yes, that's a really interesting development in that case. Thanks so much for bringing it to us.

And in South Carolina, former police officer indicted for the murder of Walter Scott, the unarmed black man shot and killed after a traffic stop. The North Charleston, South Carolina, police officer, Michael Slager, is seen firing eight times at Walter Scott as he ran away from his vehicle. Slager was fired almost immediately after that video surfaced. He faces life in prison, if convicted.

CAMEROTA: All right. So let's talk about the developments this morning in all three of these high-profile cases of possible police excessive force.

We want to bring in Harry Houck. He's a retired NYPD detective. And Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator and host of "Huff Post Live." Gentlemen, great to have you here. We have developments on all three fronts. They're all interesting.

Let's start in McKinney, Texas, the most recent case. That's where the officer pulled his gun on the teenagers who were in bathing suits. We now know his name, Corporal Eric Casebolt, and a bit of his professional history, including this troubling incident in 2007 for which he was sued.

[06:05:08] Here are the details. He was sued for excessive force, racial profiling, failure to render aid, sexual assault. All this involves a traffic stop where he allegedly unnecessarily did a public body cavity search of the driver. The lawsuit was later dismissed.

Marc, do you think that all of these things that have come out are relevant?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. It's all part of the conversation. You should know. Cases go against officers. Some of them aren't true. We all know that. So we don't want to assume that every single thing that comes out is true.

But what we know for sure is that what we saw on the videotape is true. We saw that with our own eyes. And this seems consistent with what we've heard in the past now with these other cases.

And when a case is dismissed, that could be for several reasons, not necessarily because it didn't have merit. And based on this video, I have no reason to believe that it didn't.

CAMEROTA: OK, Harry. Is it OK to dredge up old incidents like this? HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, here the lawsuit

was dismissed, so we don't know. And like Marc said, we don't know if, you know, there was a small stipulation in the law, the reason it was dismissed, or the officer was found completely pretty much not guilty, and that's why it was dismissed. So, you know, we really -- something like that, we can't go back and look on.

CAMEROTA: I mean, what happened...

HOUCK: Comparing this officer to actions on this day...

CAMEROTA: The details that came out before it was dismissed, the lawsuit -- and there was more than one witness -- is that this driver -- he approached the driver in a car. The officer said that he had seen marijuana seeds. The driver said that there were no such thing, that he was basically just making that up to come over and harass him.

HOUCK: Right.

CAMEROTA: And then he did a public body -- He pulled the driver's pants down in public and did a body cavity search.

HOUCK: But did he really do that, though?

CAMEROTA: Well, that's what more than one witness says.

HILL: I don't think those facts are -- those facts are in dispute. The fact that he pulled his pants down isn't in dispute. What's in dispute is whether or not it was excessive, whether or not it was unnecessary. But he did pull the person's pants down. By the way, I don't think seeing marijuana seeds...

HOUCK: It's odd, pulling the guy's pants down.

CAMEROTA: That's highly unusual.

HOUCK: No, you do a pat-down. Highly unusual. I don't think you do that at all. I mean, I've patted down a million people and never pulled anybody's pants down on the street. So if he did do that, if there are two witnesses to that, then I've got to go with that.

CAMEROTA: OK. So back to what's happening right now, with the teenagers and him having pulled the gun. There is a moment that you think that it might actually have been justifiable for him to pull the gun.

HOUCK: Right.

CAMEROTA: I believe we have a clip of the moment that you think on the tape is where he threatened. Can you just walk us through this, Harry, now that you've examined it, you think something else?

HOUCK: OK. I took a close look at this. See the gentleman in the blue jacket or the blue T-shirt?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: When he comes around, you have to slow this down to see it, though.

CAMEROTA: I wonder if we have that. There we go.

HOUCK: See how he comes over...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: ... towards the police officer. And the officer pulls back, and he puts his hand on his gun. Now I don't think that at the time he had to really draw it, but put the weapon -- you know, put the weapon in his hand this way. All right. He might -- this might -- this might be his defense in pulling the weapon.

HILL: I'm waiting.

HOUCK: All right? No, I'm just saying, this might be his defense.

HILL: What was the defense? You're saying when the kid pulls his pants up?

HOUCK: No, no. Watch him coming over. See the kid in the blue?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: He comes over closer towards the officer. The officer sees him coming -- hold on -- sees him coming this way.

Now, at the time, I would have probably put my hand on my weapon and not pulled it, OK? But then when he...

CAMEROTA: He's getting too close.

HOUCK: He's getting too close to the officer. You know, you've got people on this side. You've got people on this side. This kid is coming around like he's going to come around -- I don't know what the officer had going through his head at the time.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HOUCK: Maybe he thought maybe the kid was going to try and get his gun.

HILL: All I'm saying is that's somewhat of a reach. The kid -- the officer is looking this way. The kids comes over. Now this same officer can see a marijuana seed from 30 feet away, so maybe he has some extraordinary vision.

HOUCK: Come on. You can actually see this.

HILL: But none of the other officers -- let me tell you, none of the other officers had the response that he had. CAMEROTA: Did you see, Marc -- you do see the boy reach his hand

around to his own back? He's sliding at that moment. But the officer doesn't know that.

HOUCK: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: He doesn't know what that boy is going for. So watch this moment. The kid in the blue hat had his hand behind his waist for a second.

HOUCK: You see? So that might be the defense. The officer's going to use that defense in defense of pulling the weapon. Right. And I can see that officer may be perceiving the threat at this moment.

HILL: If he thinks a 16-year-old girl in a bathing suit is a threat, then surely he would think that kid's a threat. I don't doubt he thinks it's a threat. That's the problem. He thinks everybody is a threat.

HOUCK: Is -- is there another kind of dead when a 14-year-old kills you and a 25-year-old? Is there two different kinds of dead there? Because what I'm saying is...

HILL: ... debating -- no...

HOUCK: What I'm debating is the perception of that officer.

HILL: You think he really thought that that girl, that 14-year- old girl was a threat?

HOUCK: I'm not talking about the 14-year-old girl.

HILL: That's what I'm talking about. You're missing my point.

HOUCK: No, no, no, no.

CAMEROTA: You're saying that originally, he should never have escalated to this point.

HILL: What I'm saying -- Here's what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I don't have -- I'm saying that he may have had a legitimate fear that...

CAMEROTA: At that moment.

HILL: ... that boy was a threat.

HOUCK: Right.

HILL: And what I'm saying is the fact that he justified his behavior with the girl, ostensibly, by saying she was a threat makes me not trust his assessment of what a threat is at all.

HOUCK: No, no, no, no, no. That's not what I was saying.

HILL: You're not the "he," the officer is. I'm saying I don't trust the officer's judgment enough to say -- I don't believe him.

HOUCK: Let me put it this way.

[06:10:07] HILL: I don't want to believe it. I've seen a 14- year-old girl on the ground. I don't believe that he has legitimate good judgment once and for all.

HOUCK: That's fine. The 14-year-old girl, I'm in agreement with you. All right? He should not have treated her that way. OK? But I'm talking about this officer's defense is going to be the perception of when the gentleman came around.

HILL: I agree with you. That will be his defense.

CAMEROTA: Let's move on for a second, because we -- there are other cases that we need to talk about that now have new developments. Tamir Rice -- this is the Cleveland, Ohio, case where he was 12 years old and he was shot by police.

Community leaders there want to go directly to a judge. They want to bypass the prosecutor and go directly to a judge because they say it's been six months, and they haven't seen justice. Marc, is this possible?

HILL: Well, it's possible.

CAMEROTA: That community leaders can circumvent the prosecutorial process and say to the judge, "We need to charge this"?

HILL: Yes. Legally, they can. That's not -- again, that's not in dispute. The question is: one, will it work; and two, is it wise? I don't think their goal -- first of all, I don't think it will work.

CAMEROTA: Why?

HILL: Because it -- it's an obscure arcane law that they're using to do this. And -- but the question is, why are they doing it? These are smart people. They're doing it, because they want to keep the national spotlight on this issue. They want all of us, as we're doing right now, to ask the question, why haven't there been any charges filed?

CAMEROTA: Harry, why haven't there been any charges filed?

HOUCK: Because the investigation is obviously still ongoing. Sometimes it takes a long time in investigations like this. You know, you've got -- there are criminal investigations going on right now. Prosecutors are -- they're going to have to take this to a grand jury either way. All right? So we're going to have to wait to find out.

Now, this obscure law that they're going to utilize to try and get him indicted their own way, it's not going to happen.

HILL: It's not their own way. It's not their own way. It's legal.

HOUCK: ... the law -- you know, it's an obscure law. It's legal, but it's not going to happen.

CAMEROTA: OK. On the flip side, the other case is the North Charleston, South Carolina, case, where immediately they took action. Authorities immediately took action against Officer Michael Slager there for this incident where he shot Walter Scott. He was arrested, and now he has been indicted. He faces, if convicted, 30 years to life in prison.

Marc, your thoughts on this indictment?

HILL: Well, I think this was a no-brainer. I mean, this one is -- this one has never been in dispute from just about anyone I know who's even remotely reasonable. You've got a kid [SIC], a guy on the ground...

HOUCK: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: You don't even dispute it, Harry. Even though, of course, the officer says that Michael Scott, the victim there, that they were wrestling over his Taser. That's why he felt threatened.

HOUCK: Yes, that was before, before he was running. You know, he had his back to him. And then, you know, we do see what looks like the officer maybe tampering with the evidence after he shoots this guy. I mean, is this a clear-cut murder case here? This guy's going to wind up doing 30 years.

I'm -- I'm really interested to find out what kind of defense that his attorneys can put forward in court. It's going to be very interesting to see.

HILL: And I think this is an important case for the national conversation. I just want to add that quickly. Because before this videotape came out, the same police department was saying, "Hey, there's no problem here. This was lawful." The fact that the videotape pops up, shows just because cops say it doesn't mean it's true.

CAMEROTA: Pretty interesting cases, all different, obviously, with different outcomes.

Marc Lamont Hill, Harry Houck, thanks for walking us through all this.

HOUCK: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Good to see you guys.

Let's get over to Chris.

C. CUOMO: All right. We have new information on the story that's just captivating the nation. A massive manhunt for two convicted killers on the loose, four days after an almost unbelievably sophisticated escape from a maximum security prison in upstate New York. The search is now stretching from Canada, which is just 20 miles

north of where the prison is, to Mexico. The latest: authorities questioning a female prison worker who knew these cold-blooded killers, quote, "very well."

We have Polo -- Polo Sandoval live outside the prison. Polo, what do we know now?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, I can tell you, the search really has only intensified, mainly here in the town outside of Dannemora, New York, just outside of the Clinton Correction Facility.

I can also tell you that today, much of the focus will be on this woman, who's believed to have helped these individuals escape. Two questions remain. Exactly what was it like for these two individuals and how were they able to do this?

Well, we met a man yesterday on these streets. He's offering some perspective. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL (voice-over): The intense manhunt is spreading. The fugitives could be anywhere from New York's north country up to Canada or even south to Mexico, where 49-year-old fugitive Richard Matt is believed to have connections.

COMMANDER RUPERT FERNANDEZ, U.S. MARSHALL COUNTY AREA FUGITIVE TASK FORCE: Anything is a possibility. We need the public to call in.

SANDOVAL: A law enforcement source tells CNN an employee is being questioned as a possible accomplice. The woman, who worked with inmates tailoring clothing, knew Richard and 35-year-old David Sweat, but she hasn't been charged. Many think the dangerous duo could not have done it alone.

RICH PLUMADORE, RETIRED FROM PRISON: They redid that wall twice since I've been working here.

SANDOVAL: Rich Plumadore worked behind these 60-foot walls for three and a half decades. He says he retired from his job as maintenance supervisor of the prison. His daily duties included working in the hidden maze of walkways believed to have served as Matt and Sweat's path to freedom.

PLUMADORE: There's so many tunnels, all the attics, all the catwalks. It's a big maze.

SANDOVAL (on camera): They used that maze.

PLUMADORE: They used the maze. They know exactly where to go.

[06:15:00] SANDOVAL (voice-over): Plumadore suspects the escape plan took time and serious know-how to execute. PLUMADORE: Inmates should never get that knowledge.

SANDOVAL: Cutting at the wrong steam pipe at the wrong time could have been deadly, or at least blown the inmates' cover.

PLUMADORE: You had high-pressure steam coming up these tunnels. You had low pressure. I believe they cut into a low-pressure line, because they couldn't cut into it wide.

SANDOVAL: Like the rest of his neighbors, Plumadore waits anxiously for the search to be over and a pair of cunning criminals to be back behind bars.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL: And despite that intense manhunt, I can tell you that, really, it's life back to normal for the individuals here in this small town. We've noticed people really heading out to work. Folks very much aware and very much alert, trying to, of course, trying to find any sign of these two individuals. Michaela, I can tell you that the reality for law enforcement, this morning, they still don't know exactly where these two guys could potentially be.

PEREIRA: Yes. Until they're found, I think people won't be breathing easier. All right, Polo. Thanks so much for that.

The president is back now from the G-7 summit in Germany, is now taking a lot of heat for publicly admitting the U.S. does not have a complete strategy for training Iraqi forces to fight ISIS. The administration now scrambling to clarify, insisting the Pentagon is working on a plan to defeat the terrorists.

CNN national correspondent Sunlen Serfaty is live at the White House for us -- Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, those comments have really thrown a lot more fuel on the fire for critics who are already questioning and concerned over the administration strategy, especially after ISIS has made some serious gains, especially in cities like Ramadi, questioning why the administration's strategy is still incomplete after nine months of fighting.

Here's Senator John McCain blasting the administration on the Senate floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We say it again. We don't yet have a complete strategy about how to combat ISIS. I'd like to see the incomplete strategy. I'd like -- I'd like to see something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And the administration is on the defensive, trying to explain what the president meant. They say that he was specifically talking about his request for the Pentagon to come up with a new plan, a new strategy to try to accelerate the training and equipping of the Iraqi security forces, not working on the overall strategy, they say, against ISIS.

Now, the Pentagon's plan is not yet finalized. The president wants more commitments from that of the Iraqi government to recruit more trainers and especially, Michaela and Alisyn, to bring more Sunni fighters into the mix.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Sounds like we'll need more explanation today from the White House about exactly what all of that meant. Sunlen, thank you for that background.

Well, when an Army Delta Force killed a top ISIS operative during a raid in Syria last month, it raised an alarming question: Could the wives of ISIS leaders be playing a bigger role in operations than previously thought? CNN's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joining us live to explain.

Good morning, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Well, you know, in that raid they killed Abu Sayyaf and captured his wife, Umm Sayyaf. That's the name she goes by. And they found in the subsequent weeks she is offering up a lot of information. So, it is raising this very key question: Are the ISIS wives, women who join ISIS or are threatened into cooperating with ISIS, are they taking a bigger role than maybe the U.S. had thought? Because they don't gain so much attention being women. They can move around a little easier.

But there's another fascinating tidbit that's come to light. CNN has learned that the U.S. has had intelligence in recent months about possible locations for Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. It's never been good enough intelligence for them to launch an airstrike or launch a Special Operations raid into Syria, but it is something they're watching very carefully. Most of the intelligence hasn't been complete, hasn't been timely enough. But we now know that they are getting tidbits. They believe Baghdadi is alive, well and very much still in charge of ISIS.

Back to you guys.

C. CUOMO: Barbara, significant. Thank you very much for that.

There's also a significant move for the Jeb Bush campaign. The former Florida governor tapping Republican strategist Danny Diaz as his new campaign manager. This move comes as Bush arrives in Eastern Europe for a six-day trip. An official announcement that he's running for president is expected in Miami on Monday.

CAMEROTA: All right. Well, we will have more on the manhunt for those two escaped killers who broke out of that maximum security prison using power tools. We'll take a closer look, next.

C. CUOMO: And we have a CNN exclusive for you. How is ISIS holding off an army? Well, you're going to get the answer for yourself. Rare access to Iraqi forces as they prepare to battle ISIS. You'll go to the front lines with Nick Paton Walsh to see the situation for yourself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:23:40] C. CUOMO: So here's the situation. You have a cop killer and a man who chopped up his boss on the loose after breaking out of a maximum security prison in New York.

Let's bring in, right now, a man who understands how to catch bad guys like this. Former commander of the U.S. Marshal Service regional fugitive task force for New York and New Jersey, Mr. Lenny DePaul. Thank you very much.

What we now know to be assumed fact, they couldn't have done this by themselves. They had a suitcase, a guitar case full of power tools. Now that, alone, just tells you, who helped them, right?

LENNY DEPAUL, FORMER COMMANDER OF U.S. MARSHAL SERVICE REGIONAL FUGITIVE TASK FORCE FOR NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY: It seemed -- I mean, it certainly seems that there had been some help from the inside. I mean, they are questioning some folks on the inside. And that's the question of the day. If, in fact, this female did help them, did she make some phone calls? Did she meet some people on the outside? Did she bring some money in for them, cell phones?

C. CUOMO: You get a lot of different types of work. You get the who gets us the tools? Who shows us how to use the tools? And then, the even bigger question, as we see over Lenny's shoulder, as you look, this labyrinth of steam pipes and infrastructure under this really old prison. You have to know where you're going.

Some tabloids are reporting, "Oh, they just followed the biggest pipe." I hear it's not that simple. And they knew where to go. They knew how to use junction boxes to power their tools. And they had enough kind of confidence about themselves to leave that stupid note on their way out. What does that tell you?

[06:25:09] DEPAUL: It's crazy. I mean, I certainly don't think they woke up Friday morning and said, "Hey, let's chop through two feet of brick wall and cut some steel and crawl, you know, a mile to a manhole cover." It was well-planned-out.

I'm sure they -- and they have been friends since 2008. I believe Matt was extradited back from Mexico back then. And Sweat has been in since 2003. Both, brutal murderers. The underlying charges in the homicides that they're doing, they were sentenced on, you know, he -- Matt dismembered -- dismembered a body, threw it in the river. And of course, Sweat, he killed the sheriff and ran him over with a car. So they're dangerous, dangerous guys. And yes, it's hard to believe that they didn't get some help. So...

C. CUOMO: Four days on the outside now. What is time in your business? How does it work, and as it grows, how does it change?

DEPAUL: Timing is everything. And with respect to our task force and the U.S. Marshals, we're assisting the New York state troopers. So these guys hit the ground running. They're leaving no stones unturned. They're interviewing everybody, inside and out.

And timing is everything. Information sharing is critical at this point. Again, within our task force, within the Department of Corrections, state troopers, state parole, all this intel is being gathered and being utilized. What called these guys prior to? Who did they speak to? Who came to visit them?

C. CUOMO: You know all that, right? Because everything's catalogued in the prison. If they're doing their job right, you know who they speak to, you know who they correspond with.

Now, what are the layers of time? Those first 24 hours we hear is one set of questions that you start searching. Now, you get into two days, three days, four days, a week. How does it start and how does it expand?

DEPAUL: The manhunt now is basically very intense manhunt going on. From day one, the perimeter is set up. Aviation support comes in, canine, all you know, sorts of law enforcement. They hit the ground running.

And again, they're not sure exactly when they got out, either. They might have been on the run a couple of hours, you know, three, four, five, ten hours.

C. CUOMO: Nobody sighting them, that means that somebody's got to be helping them or they did something immediately that allowed them to keep themselves concealed. And I keep saying "them." More likely they're together or separate at this point?

DEPAUL: That's a good question. I mean, they -- again, they've been pretty close since they met back in '08. They did everything together. They ate together. They were in the yard together. So if they stay together for us, that's great; that's one manhunt.

If they split up, you know, you still get a lot of leads coming in. They're in two different directions. They're not going to give up each other if one of them gets caught. So, you know, it certainly brings or poses a whole lot of other questions for law enforcement.

C. CUOMO: When you've got 100 grand incentive, right, for people to give tips. And that works two ways. Right? That means you get a ton of information, not necessarily all of it usable.

Does it stand to reason that, if they spent this much time figuring out how to get out, they must have spent type of commensurate amount of time figuring out how to stay out.

DEPAUL: Right. Yes. You would think there'd be a Plan B and C that these guys have developed. Getting out is one thing. You know, some of these escapees, they get out, and it's like, "OK, we made it out. Now what do they do?" These guys, I'm sure they've done their homework. Obviously, they did. And...

C. CUOMO: and this guy, the really bad guy who chopped up his boss...

DEPAUL: right.

C. CUOMO: ... he's broken out of a jail before. Granted, way different level of security. So he's got a little bit of know-how. Given what they've done in the past, how does that function into what you think they are capable of to stay, you know, to fight for their freedom?

DEPAUL: All that comes into play as an investigator, as a fugitive hunter. I mean, we're looking at everything from, as we say, who's who in the zoo, what interviews need to be done, prior relations, friends, family, ex-girlfriends, ex-wife, whatever. Whatever it takes, the interviews that are being done, right now, they're working through the night and they're going around the clock. They won't stop until these two guys are in custody. That's the good thing.

C. CUOMO: We're hearing the presumption is that these guys will do what they need to do to stay out. And they don't expect to take them alive. We'll see what happens.

DEPAUL: Yes. That's what I was thinking, too. Let law enforcement do their -- their job. If you spot these guys, they're dangerous, armed and dangerous. And I don't know if they got their hands on any weaponry or whatnot, but they're certainly -- they don't want to go back to jail.

C. CUOMO: Lenny, thank you very much.

DEPAUL: Yes. You're welcome.

C. CUOMO: Mick.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris. A government report says that dozens of airport workers received security clearance, even though they were on terrorist watch lists. We're going to look at what went wrong here.

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