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Source: Prison Worker Planned to Pick Up Escapees; Police Officer in Pool Party Melee Resigns; Putin to Meet with Pope. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired June 10, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Are they closing in on two escaped murderers?

[05:58:42] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators are questioning Joyce Mitchell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She may have been the ride for these two fugitives, but apparently, she changed her mind.

TOBY MITCHELL, SON OF JOYCE MITCHELL: She's not the kind of person that's going to risk her life or other people's lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police officer at the center of that pool party melee, he is stepping down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shoved me in the grass, and he started pulling back on my braids.

CHIEF GREG CONLEY, MCKINNEY, TEXAS: Our policies, our training, our practice do not support his actions.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: We're clearing the floor. So...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a bomb threat that was called in.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The president was in the Oval Office while this was going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't imagine the president was left undisturbed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, June 10, 6 a.m. in the east.

And we have a major development this morning in the New York prison break. Sources telling CNN a female prison employee apparently planned to helped the felons after they escaped, but she says she changed her mind at the last minute. ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So authorities are still on the trail of

these escaped killers. They're on the loose for four days and believed to be on foot. Police descending on a town 40 miles south of the maximum-security prison after a possible sighting. Look at this. Police combing through farms and fields, looking for the fugitives.

Let's begin our coverage with CNN's Polo Sandoval. He is live in Dannemora, New York, with more.

Good morning, Polo.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Alisyn. This morning, the search and the manhunt expected to press on, this time, though, with two possible breaks in the case.

It all has to do with several employees that have been interviewed by investigators. The woman that we've also been focusing on here, Joyce Mitchell, a tailor at the Clinton Correctional Facility here. A source close to the investigation now telling CNN that she reportedly agreed to actually pick up these two men once they emerged from the manhole that's not far from where we're standing this morning here in the town of Dannemora. We're also told that at one point, she likely changed her mind, possibly even suffering some form of panic attack and ending up in the hospital.

Now, the other lead here also coming from investigators. A source telling CNN that her phone was reportedly used to call several people linked or connected to one of the suspects in this case, to Richard Matt. Now, the concern here is they are not sure exactly who placed those calls, when those calls were made. So we do have to make it very clear here, no charges have been filed against Mitchell.

So, that's still part of a very fluid and still ongoing investigation. But we're also doing some digging into who she is. We do know that she is a Clinton employee. She's actually been an employee here for at least five years according to information that we've gathered here on the ground in upstate New York. She also worked alongside inmates as a tailor. Also married and is nearby -- and living nearby in the town of Dickinson.

And as for her family, they're also coming forward this morning. In fact, they spoke to NBC News, saying that she's committed to her job. And her son, Toby Mitchell, denying any potential involvement with this very elaborate escape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL: She is not the kind of person that's going to risk her life or other people's lives to let these guys escape from prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: And meanwhile, it is a new day here in the small town that sits in the shadow of the Clinton correctional facility. I can tell you that today, people are already beginning to wake up, heading out to work. And this has really become a routine. They head out to school, work, go about their lives. However, at this time, they continue to go past some of these checkpoints that have become a very -- very much a reality now and almost a regular scene here, Chris, for the people that continue to cross by (ph).

CUOMO: Right. Let's stay with the urgency that the investigators have on this right now. Obviously, there are no charges against her, as you mentioned. But she also hasn't asked for a lawyer. And obviously, that's the give and take to continue to get information. They're very concerned about who else was helping here and what the plan might have been.

Which leads us to the manhunt. We've been showing the pictures of the phalanx of officers. We heard about a sighting. How strong is that information and how confident are investigators at this point?

SANDOVAL: Yes, that actually happened overnight Monday into Tuesday. There was an individual that was driving in the small town, as you mentioned there, Willsboro, New York. Spotted two suspicious individuals walking down the lonely road, middle of the night, raining. That was clearly a red flag, especially once that person started driving towards them. They essentially ran away from that individual into a field.

So officers, dozens of them, really, responding to that town about 30 miles away from this correctional facility, searching farms, fields. And also looking through surveillance video of some of the local businesses and homes. But at this point, that has produced no results. You can expect investigators to be back out there, especially now that the weather seems to be cooperating, Chris.

CAMEROTA: OK, Polo, thanks so much for all that information. We want to dig deeper now with Jeff Hall. He's a professor at City University of New York and an expert on the prison system. And Tom Fuentes, our CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director.

It's great to have both of you. But Jeff, I want to start with you in particular. Not only are you an expert on the prison system. You grew up in and around this very prison, and your dad was a correctional officer at this prison.

JEFF HALL, PROFESSOR, CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK: Yes.

CAMEROTA: So how surprised were you that two people could escape from there?

HALL: It was really surprising. I know the security in the prison. I've been inside once during the course of my research. My father, of course, worked there. And understanding the security level there, it is a huge shock that this happened.

CAMEROTA: What about the notion they became involved, possibly even romantically, with one of the workers in the prison, who then helped them?

HALL: It's surprising, but not -- not uncommon. My research on my dissertation revealed that this does occasionally happen. These are controlling environments that are run and populated by human beings. So these types of errors, I think, are prone to happen in any type of environment like that.

CUOMO: You have this whole toxic dynamic, where so much of the contraband that gets inside come through, you know, people who have friendly connections there, one of the realities.

So now let's get to how that manifests itself in what's happening right now. Tom, a lot of people were surprised to hear that these guys would be on the road, would be seen. But what are the realities? If their plan has fallen apart a little bit, what are they left with in terms of how to get from A to B?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Chris, that would be a reality. If they were popping that manhole cover last Saturday morning and expecting somebody to pick them up who wasn't there, then that must have been just a complete panic on their part of now what? Where are we going walk to? It's a small rural area. It's going to be hard to hide day or night for very long.

[06:05:25] And they wouldn't have been prepared to deal with the elements. It's upstate New York. It still gets cold. It's been raining there. It's a harsh climate. They hadn't -- you know, like the Pennsylvania state trooper killer, prepared to be in the woods for an extended period of time, having food prepositioned and clothing and that.

So they're out there dealing with the elements, which makes them even more dangerous than they ever were to go in and do a home invasion, to look for food, you know, water, money, firearms, cars, anything. And that would put every family in that rural county, probably, in extreme danger if that's true. If they're on the loose and they're in the woods right in that area, they're going to be in somebody's home before too long.

CAMEROTA: And we know the children are being kept inside at school, not allowed to go onto the playground because people are so scared.

Jeff, I want to talk to you, because in your research, you say that you find it very hard to believe that they would go through such an elaborate escape plan to get out of their cells, cutting through layers and layers of walls, going through this elaborate tunnel system, and not have a better escape plan once they pop out of the manhole cover.

HALL: Right. I mean, because my research indicates, going back almost 200 years, that people who broke out of prisons in the north country, which happened with great frequency, when they did not have a getaway driver, some way to get out of the area, often did become lost.

The first people who escaped from that prison in 1845 got so lost that they ran back to the prison. So, the environment is formidable. It's tough terrain, if you 'e not familiar with it. It can be deadly.

CUOMO: Which explains why they'd be walking on an open road. You know, that sounds unsophisticated, but the grass is deep there. It's cold, it's wet. You don't know where you're going. It's buggy. You want to stay where you can, even if that seems like simple considerations.

Tom, one of the interesting dynamics here then is loss of control. As elaborate as what they did inside, they were controlling it. They're outside unless they have affiliation, you know, with an organization, a gang or whatever. They're now on their own. They were completely dependent on whoever was supposed to help them.

FUENTES: No, it's true. Like I said, and if they're feeling like cornered animals out there, then they're going to do something drastic to try to ensure their physical survival and their continued freedom out of that prison.

But another concern the marshals have and all of the officers working on this task force is that -- that because of these reports that are so likely they're in that very area, that people might discount the possibility that they still made it out of state or they still made it to Mexico or Canada. And they may see two people that look just like these guys and say, "Oh, it can't be them. They've been spotted in upstate New York." So that's still a concern the marshals have.

Anybody out there cross country and the nearest couple of countries, if you see anybody that looks like it could be them, one or the other or both, still call it in. They still want to pursue every lead, just in case these leads aren't true or that the first leads that might have been true Saturday, early morning, that the later sighting might not be that true.

CAMEROTA: And we're going to put that number up for you in just a second to call authorities. But you can also just call 911 if you think that you have any information.

But Tom, what are they doing at this hour? What is the FBI, what are the marshals doing at this hour in terms of trying to canvass and find these guys in this rural farm area?

FUENTES: Well, in the rural area, as weather permits, they have, you know, not just the search teams on the ground, but they're using aircraft. And at night, they'd be using aircraft with forward-looking infrared, trying to see the heat signatures of people moving through the forest at night. And it would show up even more dramatically as white ghosts moving around on the ground, given the colder weather that you have at night in the wooded terrain.

The unfortunate thing with infrared, and we've used it for many years now. In these situations, lost children, you know, not just fugitives, you also pick up all the animals that are running around. It looks like there could be a lot of deer, bear and animals like that in those woods that would also be picked up and have to be checked out.

CUOMO: But they did get some scenting dogs. They had some scenting dogs there who were picking up some scents, so it's not just a random visual they had either. CAMEROTA: Jeff, from your experience, very quickly, how long is it

going to take to find these guys?

HALL: I would say, from my historical research, this probably will be resolved rather quickly.

CAMEROTA: Seems like it.

HALL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Seems like they're hot on the trail. Jeff Hall, Tom Fuentes, thanks so much for all the information.

And again, if you have any information, if you spot these guys or have any information on their whereabouts, call the U.S. Marshals at that tip line: 1-800-336-0102 or 911.

CUOMO: What you do is as important as what you don't do. Do not approach them yourself. These guys have killed, and they've killed in the worst way.

All right. Another big story this morning. The police officer who slammed a 14-year-old girl to the ground and then pulled a gun at a pool party near Dallas, he has turned in his badge. Corporal Eric Casebolt is his name, and he's resigning after his chief, not the media, not an advocacy group, but his chief, called his conduct out of control. CNN's Alina Machado has the latest live in McKinney, Texas -- Alina.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris. Yes, the officer was on administrative leave. He left the department before the investigation was even completed. But now some are saying his resignation just isn't enough.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CONLEY: The actions of Casebolt, as seen on the video, are indefensible.

MACHADO (voice-over): Police Officer Corporal Eric Casebolt seen on that shocking viral video, yanking a 14-year-old bikini-clad girl to the ground, unholstering his gun on other teens, and later putting his knee into the girl's back has now resigned.

The Dallas suburb's police chief said it's too soon to say whether he'll face charges.

CONLEY: Our policies, our training, our practice do not support his actions. He came into the call out of control. And as the video shows, was out of control during the incident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice!

MACHADO: This, as protests continue over the shocking incident.

CPL. ERIC CASEBOLT, FORMER OFFICER OF MCKINNEY, TEXAS, POLICE DEPARTMENT: On your face!

MACHADO: Some teens at the pool party say the police officer's actions were definitely racially motivated.

ZACH TWA (PH), WITNESS: Right when he came, black kids over there, white kids there. We want to see all the black kids, because we think we all did something, and the white kids, y'all are innocent. You guys can just go and take your phones out.

MACHADO: The local police union has said that teens and adults were trespassing at the privately-owned pool and that there were reports of vandalism and fighting in the area when officers responded.

Casebolt's attorney has not responded to CNN's requests for comment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACHADO: Now, we've been told Casebolt is not expected to speak to reporters today. But we've just learned this morning that his attorney will be holding a news conference this afternoon -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Alina. Thanks so much for that background.

Well, another story. Washington, D.C., on high alert following a series of phoned-in bomb threats. The threats serious enough to cause the evacuation of parts of the West Wing and Capitol Hill. But why weren't President Obama and the first family evacuated?

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is live for us at the White House with the very latest. What happened, Sunlen?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, that's just one of the many questions we still have. These two evacuations happened hours apart, nearly back-to-back. And federal officials are now looking to see if they are linked in any way.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY (voice-over): Tuesday's White House press briefing was business as usual, until...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to evacuate the press briefing room now.

SERFATY: ... at nearly 2 in the afternoon, in the middle of a live briefing, the Secret Service says a bomb threat was called into the D.C. Metropolitan Police, specifically targeting the press room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need you to clear this area out, please.

SERFATY: Reporters evacuating. Camera crews packing up their equipment before bomb-sniffing dogs were on the scene. Secret Service officers even covering up the press cameras during the evacuation to protect the agency's investigation tactics.

This security scare came just hours after a bomb threat was called into the Capitol police, targeting a TSA hearing in the Senate Office Building.

JOHNSON: OK. We're clearing the floor. So if you could, in an orderly fashion, please exit as quickly as possible. Thank you.

SERFATY: The bomb squad sweeping the third floor, the area the callers specifically targeted, according to a Senate aide who was briefed by police.

After the all clear, journalists filed back into the briefing room about a half hour after the evacuation.

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Let's just do this one at a time. OK.

SERFATY: Josh Earnest peppered with questions.

EARNEST: I left the room at the same time that all of you did.

SERFATY: After revelations that the president and first family were not evacuated, even though President Obama was in the Oval Office and the first family in the residence at the time.

EARNEST: I have complete confidence in the professionalism of the men and women in the Secret Service to make judgments about what's necessary to keep all of us safe.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY: And this, of course, is on ongoing investigation, not only to look at these two incidents for links, but also if there's a connection to in any way to this unusual spate of bomb threats we've also seen against airlines recently. Chris, most recently, one forcing the scrambling of two F-15s -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Sunlen. Thank you very much.

We also want to tell you, this morning some 500 additional American troops could be heading to Iraq to fight ISIS. Now, most will be used to help train Iraqi forces. That's what we're told.

Military officials are also telling CNN that a number of options have been considered, including sending as many as 1,000 troops to Iraq. We're pushing for a final number, and they tell us one will come soon.

CAMEROTA: Russian President Vladimir Putin seeking a sympathetic ear from Pope Francis. He's set to meet with the pontiff at the Vatican in a few hours. So what's on the agenda?

CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is live at St. Peter's Square. Good morning, Nic. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good

morning, Alisyn.

Well, you can expect Ukraine to be on the agenda. You can expect the plight of Christians in the Middle East to be on the agenda. This is a delicate tightrope, if you will, for the pope to walk here.

President Putin ostracized by the Europeans, by the international community, excluded from the G-7 meeting that took place just a few days ago. This gives him an opportunity to walk again on the world stage.

The pope is under pressure, as well, because Ukraine's Catholics don't believe -- and there are 45 million of them -- don't believe that the pope is taking a strong enough line with Russia. He said that what was happening in Ukraine was fratricide. They want the pope to be much stronger and want him in that meeting with President Putin to take a strong line. The pope, typically, tries to keep a position of neutrality so that he can build and reconcile for peace.

But the pope also needs, if you will, President Putin. The pope wants to unite all Christians, not just Catholics but all the orthodox, as well. And right now, 225 million of them in the world, and President Putin has a lot of influence over them.

Also, President Putin would be helpful to a pope in trying to help in secure all those Christians in the Middle East these days who face so much pressure and uncertainty in their futures -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Nick. Looks like Putin is coming to the pope not so much as pontiff, the high priest, but as a political figure. Thank you for the reporting.

Also, we want to tell you about a case of road rage in L.A. that almost turned deadly. An argument over nothing. A lane change turned into an all-out fistfight in the street. Here's why I say it almost turned deadly.

One of the men winds up getting socked and falls into the street, just misses a passing van. Right? Look at that.

No one filed charges. The guys get back in the car. And, you know, the cops are looking; they're not looking.

But here's the thing. This is a stupid fistfight. Now the guy's playing against advantage, right? Now he gets back in. He thinks he's a tough guy. If that sucker punch that he threw as he punches the car -- that's always smart -- had knocked that guy into the van, it is now manslaughter.

I don't care that you just wanted to lane change and you're angry and you're a big tough guy. The moment he does this...

CAMEROTA: Oh!

CUOMO: ... if he hit that van and we know what happens if he hits the van, it's manslaughter. You're going away. Doesn't matter what your intent was.

CAMEROTA: Yes. They're not thinking while this is happening. That's all great, logical rationale for not having road rage. The whole problem is that your triggered, for whatever reason, while you're driving, and you can't control yourself. I mean, look at that.

CUOMO: There's tons of social science for it. We've all covered it for 100 years. And I often feel -- you know what I feel? We give it too much validity of justification. I think it is -- yes, there's road rage and you're triggered by this, in a confined space. A lot of that I just wave away. It's just stupid.

CAMEROTA: It is stupid.

CUOMO: That guy's whole life could have changed.

CAMEROTA: Of course. It is stupid. But I mean, look at that. They couldn't control themselves.

CUOMO: You know what cops say? Never get out of the car. Never get -- I don't care how tough you are. Never get out of the car.

CAMEROTA: That's good.

All right. Back to one of our top stories now. The police officer caught on camera slamming a teenage girl to the ground and waving his gun at other teenagers at this pool party, he has resigned. Does more need to happen? We debate that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:21:56] CONLEY: Eric Casebolt has resigned from the McKinney Police Department. As the chief of police, I want to say to our community that the actions of Casebolt, as seen on the video of the disturbance at the community pool, are indefensible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: That is the police chief of McKinney, Texas, announcing the resignation of Officer Eric Casebolt. He's the guy who was caught on video slamming a 14-year-old girl to the ground and waving his gun, or pulling it, as some teenagers approached him as they were breaking up this pool party.

Now, like many cases, this has not become just about what happened. It's about why it happens. Let's discuss what happens next. We have Harry Houck, retired NYPD detective; and Marc Lamont Hill, CNN political commentator and host of "Huff Po Live."

So he resigned. He wasn't thrown off the force. But we do have a police agency coming out and saying, instead of, you know, what we sometimes hear, which is "We think that this is all fine, and we'll do our own review." He's coming out and saying, "This is totally against what we're about here in the community." How helpful do you think these two actions are, Professor Hill?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It sends an incredibly powerful message, not just to the area but really to the country, that we might be turning a corner here. That these types of behaviors will be unacceptable, that police can't operate with impunity. That's the hope.

CUOMO: Any downside to this?

HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: No. I think it's -- I mean, it's very clear this officer's actions were incorrect. And you know, I was really a little bit surprised that he resigned. I thought maybe he would take this the whole way of going through the courts and through the system or the police department, whether or not to get fired or not. But it's a good thing that he resigned.

CUOMO: Because?

HOUCK: Well, because you know, I mean, I think he himself probably looked at the video and might have said to himself, "I really was out of control." And there's no way for him, naturally, to really fight what he had done.

So he probably figured, "Listen, I don't want to go through any administrative hearings here. The best thing for me to do now is to probably resign."

CUOMO: Does it have to be about race? Is there any other way to look at this? Because there's no question that that's the line down which people were discussing this. All the white kids, even the kids say the white kids were over here. The black kids over here. They only did this to her because she's black.

And then you have these other people who are now saying she was -- had a big mouth. She was running her mouth. She didn't comply, and this is what happened. What's your take?

HILL: Well, nothing is ever too simplistic that we can say, "Hey, it's just race" or "it's exclusively not race." Maybe this kid was talking a lot. But white kids yell at police officers all the time. The question becomes, what's the response?

I try to not look at this in isolation, but look at it across the country. When we look at these incidents, over -- overwhelmingly it's black kids this happens to. When we look at the research studies, it shows the police officers, black and white officers, because this isn't just -- black cops aren't any better at this. Black cops tend to -- and white cops tend to look at black children as older than they are and more guilty than they are. That's how Tamir Rice can be looked at as a 21-year-old when they called -- when they called in the -- you know, the call. And how police can respond the way they do.

CUOMO: Why isn't it simple, though, Harry? Because I'll take the other side of this. You tell me. Feel free to just knock it down. It is simple. You're the professional. You're the cop. People do all kinds of stupid things when you get up in their face. Some are respectful. A lot of them aren't. You have to deal with them the same way.

HOUCK: Right.

CUOMO: And it doesn't matter: black, white, green, brown. You're going to deal with it. And it's how you deal with it.

[06:25:02] HOUCK: You know, exactly. Like I said, this officer was out of control. Like I said the other day, you know, when you respond to a scene like this, we have two black independent witnesses that were interviewed that live in the neighborhood that talked about it. There was actually a 30-minute melee going on. And we saw a seven- minute video. All right?

Apparently, these kids tried to get into the pool where they weren't supposed to get in the pool, and the security guard, who could not control it, had to call the police. All right. So we know there was a large altercation going on. It wasn't a riot. All right? But like the witnesses also said, there were only about seven people involved.

So when the police officers respond to the scene, you find those seven people who were involved in it. All right.

CUOMO: We knew they were identified as black?

HOUCK: I have no idea if they were identified as black or not.

HILL: By the video, it seems as if they were acting to find black people. That becomes the problem. Another example...

HOUCK: Well, we've got to just hear the 911 call. Because I want to hear what the 911 call said. Listen, you know, if there's a bunch of black students trying to get into a pool, and they're not allowed to get in the pool, and they started climbing the fence, all right? And that's why the security guard couldn't handle the situation. Nobody in the neighborhood, allegedly, called the police. It was a security guard, because he could not handle the crowd.

HILL: And I'm with that. I'm not the politically correct guy that says, look, if you call in and say it's a black guy who robbed a bank, you have to find an Asian and a white guy to harass, too. I'm saying target the assumption. Target the people you're looking for, but that doesn't mean you have to abuse the people you're looking for.

HOUCK: No, I agree, 100 percent. I agree 100 percent.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: The irony is, of course, that the girl who threw the party was a black girl and she was from the neighborhood. So how does that play into it?

All right. So now we have the -- all right, what do you do about these things? Hire more black cops. Marc Lamont Hill says black doesn't matter, white. It's about how you train them. But it is good to have...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. I wouldn't say it doesn't matter.

CUOMO: It's good to have them. I'm saying them -- and that's right. You don't want to get beat. That's the end game. We get it.

But it's, well, why aren't they there? You know, it's a good civil service job. So Commissioner Bratton of New York comes out and says, "It's hard for us to hire them." Now, you hear that a lot. But what he says next, you do not hear that often, which is because so many of them have records, "they've spent time in jail and, as such, we can't hire them."

Now, he gets upset. He say that this was taken out of context. He then clarifies it by saying, hey, look, Stop and Frisk has unintended consequences. I stopped you; you've got something wrong with you. I now have to make the case. And if we look at the stats, more blacks involved in crime. There are more black victims.

HOUCK: He's right. One in three black...

CUOMO: Is all of it right?

HILL: Everything that he says, there are other factors. Again...

HOUCK: I don't agree with everything that Commissioner Brad said.

Listen, Stop and Frisk does not make you a criminal. It uncovers criminality. So if you got stopped by Stop and Frisk, and there was nothing is wrong. There's nothing on your record in the first place.

But is you've got Stop and Frisk and you are carrying a gun, all right, now you take the police test. We found out you took the gun. You carry the gun. You're not going to get police officers. I think a lot of black men don't want to be police officers, maybe.

CUOMO: He says that, too.

HOUCK: A lot of these guys don't want to be cops.

CUOMO: It's not a celebrated thing if you have a negative experience.

HILL: So there's a couple things here. One, for example, 80 percent of -- I believe it's 80 or 85 percent of those stops, of the hits when you were Stop and Frisk, are like petty drug crimes. Most of them...

HOUCK: But they are crimes.

HILL: But most of them are people walking on the streets carrying guns trying to be cops. My point is, even if it's not a felony, even if it's a misdemeanor, if you have a series of misdemeanors, it can be used as a negative factor in deciding whether or not you'll be chosen to be a police officer. HOUCK: Right. It depends on the misdemeanor, though. Even

Commissioner Bratton said that in a statement.

HILL: But according to the rule book, a series of misdemeanors of any sort can demonstrates disrespect for the law and disqualify you.

Let me make my bigger point. My bigger point here is that, yes, police officers or rather black people don't want to be police officers for a whole bunch of reasons. But I think it's the height of arrogance for someone to engineer a set of laws and policies that disqualify you from being a police officer and then say, "Black people don't want to be police officers because they keep getting arrested." Well, if you don't want them to keep getting arrested, you can't keep making laws that made this arrest worthy.

HOUCK: Maybe you should not -- you should not break the law. That's -- that's the main issue here.

HILL: But black and white people make the same rate. Only black people are getting caught.

HILL: That's a table for discussion. That's a table for discussion. Get online. Let's continue it. You have Marc Lamont Hill. Harry Houck's even getting into the Twitter game. So let's keep the conversation going there. In the next hour, we're going to talk live with a kid involved here. A teenager who shot that cell-phone video. Why did he shoot it the way he did? What did he see there? You will hear for yourself -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, Chris.

As you know, there are two escaped inmates on the loose at this hour. A manhunt is underway. After four days on the loose, are these cold- blooded killers close to being captured?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Are they closing in on two escaped murderers?

[05:58:42] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators are questioning Joyce Mitchell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She may have been the ride for these two fugitives, but apparently, she changed her mind.

TOBY MITCHELL, SON OF JOYCE MITCHELL: She's not the kind of person that's going to risk her life or other people's lives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police officer at the center of that pool party melee, he is stepping down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He shoved me in the grass, and he started pulling back on my braids.

CHIEF GREG CONLEY, MCKINNEY, TEXAS: Our policies, our training, our practice do not support his actions.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: We're clearing the floor. So...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a bomb threat that was called in.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The president was in the Oval Office while this was going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't imagine the president was left undisturbed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to NEW DAY. It is Tuesday,>