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Police Urging Residents to Stay Home within Search Area; U.S. to Send 450 More Troops to Iraq. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired June 11, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: ... last night. That's when there was some sort of suspicious sighting that triggered all of this. Once that happened, New York state police asked residents who live in this affected area to stay inside, to leave their outdoor lights on, to leave their doors locked.

[07:00:09] As of this morning, the Saranac Central School District closed as a result of the ongoing search, in this particular area. You remember yesterday, Chris, when New York's governor told the public to be vigilant, to look out for anything that might be suspicious.

But they have to follow up on every lead as if they might be the lead that takes them to these two fugitives. That's what's happening right now. This particular section still closed. We are hearing it is at least going to be closed throughout the morning -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Jason, thank you very much.

These developments come just hours after officials were suggesting that the convicts may have fled to Vermont. Why Vermont? CNN's Polo Sandoval is live outside the prison with the answer to that and new information about the female employee who may have been involved in this entire situation.

Polo, what do you know?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Chris, well, yesterday we heard from the governors of New York and Vermont in a press conference. They said -- making it clear that the search area would expand to the neighboring state of Vermont. Their concern there from the very beginning these individuals likely fled the area.

We heard from one of those officials, saying that in their eyes it is believed that the two individuals who fled over last weekend likely thought that at least Vermont would be -- there wouldn't be as heavy a police presence. However, that likely not the case anymore. Both the heads of both states now announcing they plan to work together since route (ph) the paperwork that would be required for state police from both sides to be able to cross state lines.

So this morning we know that officers are combing this area while the police presence is very intense not far from the prison itself. We know the police officers also in Vermont right now are canvassing several wooded areas, even focusing on some of the campgrounds there, handing out flyers with warnings for individuals, pictures of those two folks that are still on the run right now. Of course, that 800 officials have been, officials have been reiterating this much of the day.

Meanwhile, really, much of the last several days, meanwhile, we're also learning more about this possible link between one woman, and a female employee at the Clinton Correctional Facility, and one of these -- one of these prisoners here. Specifically talking about Joyce Mitchell. We heard from her daughter-in-law responding to some of these possible accusations she could have helped these two individuals escape.

One of the relatives there, Paige Mitchell, her daughter-in-law saying that, quote, 95 percent of what is being said is untrue. She also goes on to say that "It is appalling to me, and I'm totally disgusted anyone would think she's had a relationship with these men and that she would knowingly help them out."

So clearly we are getting to hear, really, from more members of the community and people directly linked to some of the possible key players in this case, Alisyn.

As back on the ground here in Clinton county, I can tell you that there is still that increased police presence. You heard from Jason a few moments ago. We are on the other side of the -- of this road block here.

Just to put things into perspective for you, Alisyn, you're looking over my shoulder, that's the Clinton correctional facility that these two individuals escaped from six days ago. So it really does offer some perspective, Alisyn, into how close this manhunt is to where it all started.

CAMEROTA: It sure does, Polo. And let's give our viewers a little bit more perspective in terms of the proximity of things. Here's where the prison is situated. Here is Cadyville, New York. And the search area is this seven-square-mile are that police are combing right now choppers are flying over.

So for more information, we want to bring in right now Tom Fuentes. He's our CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant director. As well as Michael Alig. He's a former inmate at Clinton Correctional Facility. He was released from prison last year after serving 17 years after a murder conviction.

Nice to have you both here. We need both of your information this morning.

Tom, let me start with you. What's happening right now as we see inside that seven-mile square search area?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Alisyn, they'd be trying to have every resource possible in that area to look for them. Have they shelter in a place? Have they gone into an abandoned cabin or maybe even an occupied house to seek shelter? Because after this many days out, they need to eat. They need

food, water. If they're going to try to get out of the area, they need wheels and cash.

But I think at this point they would probably try to hunker down and ride this out, and try to survive.

The other thing is that at night it's extremely cold at night. It's been raining there. They probably weren't prepared to be in the woods and try to survive that way. So chances are, they have found some kind of a shelter to hide in.

CAMEROTA: And we know it's a rural area, as we said. It's seven square miles. So Tom, how will police search every barn, every home, every abandoned shack?

FUENTES: Well, that's why they have several hundred officers doing that. They will try to search every barn, every home, every shack. And then have the helicopters in the air by day trying to look for suspicious people. And at night when they can use infrared more effectively, look for the images of warm bodies running around on a cold forest floor.

[07:05:10] Now, unfortunately, that also picks up animals, deer, bear, other large mammals that would be warm-blooded and moving around. But it may give them the possibility of zeroing in on them if they try to move at night.

CAMEROTA: OK, Michael, I want to turn to you. You spent three years at the Clinton Correctional Facility. There's new information this morning that really suggests that this woman who was the prison tailor, Joyce Mitchell, did play some sort of a role in their escape. And in fact, maybe she was -- so you're not surprised, why?

MICHAEL ALIG, FORMER PRISON INMATE AT CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: I mean, it happens all the time. Every facility I've been in has had some kind of scandal where a female civilian, usually not an officer, someone in the tailor shop or the commissary or the package room or something, whatever is having a relationship with an inmate.

CAMEROTA: And how is that possible? I mean, forget the emotional side of it but just the logistics of it. Aren't the guards watching out for that?

ALIG: You'd think they would do, but they're not, really. I mean, it's the sort of thing you become vigilant about it; and after a few months you become complacent again and it goes in cycles. But, you know, there's a lot of opportunities.

CAMEROTA: There's a lot of opportunities. In other words, they are left alone.

ALIG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: They are left alone to have some sort of romantic relationship.

ALIG: Well, that's not why they're left alone.

CAMEROTA: During the course of being left alone for a long period of time?

ALIG: Yes, several hours.

CAMEROTA: I was reading that you said -- OK, there's a big question, as you know, about the power drills, the power tools that these guys used to get out. And everybody has said they're noisy. How could they possibly have used any sorts of power tools? What's the answer to that?

ALIG: Well, they're noisy, but they're not as noisy as the radios that the inmates play into all hours. You know, they're playing -- they have these things that they attach to their boom boxes that make them very loud. And they're so loud they would rattle -- they would rattle the gates in the cell.

CAMEROTA: So in the middle of the night, inmates are playing loud music, so loud that it's reverberating from cell to cell. Why is that allowed?

ALIG: I don't know. I mean, I suppose they make decisions and they weigh the pros and the cons. And the pros outweigh the cons. They want to keep the inmates sort of happy on some level so there's not an uprising and causing problems and fighting with the officers. And they do have to keep some semblance of order, so there's a balance there to keep, maybe, that going a little too far the other way.

CAMEROTA: Doesn't that answer the question of how they could have -- they could have made all this noise breaking through these walls, if the music is just, you know, throbbing?

ALIG: Yes. That was never a question in my mind, because I mean, if -- anybody -- the first night you spend in prison, you -- that's the first thing you notice. It's like what is going on? It is like New Year's Eve every night.

CAMEROTA: My gosh. How much would you say, Tom, are the inmates there trying or plotting a break out?

ALIG: Well, I mean, everybody sort of has it in the back of their minds, you know, that can I -- you know, is there a hole in the wall over here? Or is it how sturdy is that door? How realistic -- I don't think, you know, many people are realistically thinking how am I going to break out. The whole time I was in prison I knew one person who tried to get away. And he was caught the minute he, you know, stepped five feet out of bounds.

CAMEROTA: Tom, I want to bring you back. Would you be surprised if, in fact, these guys are just five miles away from the prison? They're not in Mexico. They're not in Canada. They're still in the area? FUENTES: Well, from what we heard, I would not be surprised at

this point that, if whoever was going to pick them up, whether it was the employee or someone else, didn't show up. And they came up out of that manhole cover and looked around, and their ride was not there, then they were stuck with being on foot, unprepared in the woods, you know, trying to survive.

And that's a whole different mode than if they were expecting a ride and theoretically could have been 500 miles from that prison by the time they even realized -- by the time the prison authorities realized that they had been gone.

So yes, I think at this point, but it also means that they're just all the more dangerous for all the residents in that area for them to possibly do a home invasion or a carjacking, something desperate on their part.

CAMEROTA: And, in fact, we do know the residents there are being asked to stay inside at this hour. So we obviously are watching the breaking news, and we will bring you all the developments as soon as we have it.

Michael, Tom, thanks so much for all the information.

ALIG: you're welcome.

CAMEROTA: Let's get over to Ana.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's get to the battle against ISIS. It could be changing. Up to 450 additional U.S. troops could soon be joining the fight in Iraq. The administration -- the U.S. administration says they will train, advise, assist Iraqi forces. And new military personnel will also act as recruiters, in a sense, reaching out to Sunnis in Anbar province.

CNN's Michelle Kosinski is at the White House with details -- Michelle.

[07:10:00] MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ana. Yes, and also they want to get equipment to the Iraqi forces faster. But we're not talking tens of thousands of troops here. About 450 more set to key Anbar province, between Ramadi and Fallujah, though. Those are cities that have been taking over by ISIS. Then they're not going to be in a combat role, as you said.

They're basically there to help the Iraqis help themselves. The question exists, though, I mean, if these deep-rooted problems have been there in the Iraqi army for some time, why wasn't this assistance and more done well before Ramadi fell? And sending significantly more troops now when you look at the total number that's there, doesn't that indicate that there were significant underestimates of what was needed in the first place from the administration?

I think we've gotten as much of an admission there are problems as we're going to get, that yes, there have been setbacks, that yes, forces do need to respond more nimbly to ISIS, that they need to act more quickly when there are shortfalls, and that yes, this is a problem that they have been working on.

There has been criticism coming from some Republicans as well as some Democrats, not only that more needs to be done, but also fears that the U.S. role is just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger -- Chris.

CUOMO: A legitimate fear. That's why we're watching. Michelle, thank you very much.

American Airlines flight veered off the runway at Charlotte's international airport. It was Flight 786. And when it went off the runway Wednesday night, as it was attempting to make a U-turn. Why? Well, an official says it appears the pilot miscalculated. No one was on board the plane -- that was hurt, that is. Apparently, neither was the plane that was cleared for departure about 30 minutes later. Just a weird thing to tell you about.

CABRERA: Presidential hopeful Ben Carson raising eyebrows yet again. He first caught flak back in March after appearing right here on NEW DAY. You'll all recall he made those controversial comments about gay people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You think being gay is a choice?

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Why do you say that?

CARSON: Because a lot of people who go into prison, go into prison straight and when they come out they're gay. So did something happen while they were in there?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Now appearing on FOX News yesterday, he admitted that statement was, quote, "bone-headed." But then he went on to say that gay rights and civil rights are not the same.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: Quite frankly, I didn't remember any times when there were signs up that said, everybody else here and gay people have to drink at this fountain. I was a little irritated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Well, the GOP presidential contender was out stumping in Iowa yesterday. He also said if elected president, he would make the government more efficient by having workers spy on one another.

CAMEROTA: Man, that interview with you really has legs, you know? It continues.

CUOMO: I think it's interesting because of how many people agree with Dr. Ben Carson about it. You know, I know within the media it was a little bit of shock to the conscience moment. But a lot of people agree with him, and a lot of people also agree with the point that he's making about it's not the same as civil rights.

I think you have to be careful not to confuse the virulence of what was done in the name of racism. No one is saying that, you know, LGBT is being attacked as badly as blacks were in this country. It's about whether or not they're being denied something in a way that defeats equal protection under the law. That's what the case is about.

CABRERA: What I find most interesting about Ben Carson is he's not politically correct. He's not your typical candidate, whether that's a good thing or bad thing, obviously.

CUOMO: A lot of people like it.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. Let us know what you think.

CUOMO: All right. So we're going to have more ahead on this search for two fugitives that broke out of the maximum security prison. You know that by now. The question is, where are they? Could be Canada, could be Mexico, maybe Vermont. Maybe seven miles away. We have people positioned everywhere that's relevant. We'll give you the latest.

CAMEROTA: Another big story, hundreds more U.S. troops heading to Iraq to a critical area of Iraq to train, advise and assist Iraqi forces to fight ISIS. Will this make a difference?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:17:43] SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not going to change a thing in Iraq.

Well, No. 1, the Sunni Arabs in Anbar province are not going to join. This strategy is not working to defeat a determined enemy like ISIL. You've got to have the capability and the will. President Obama is not providing the capability, and he doesn't have the will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: That sounds like one way of saying that Senator Lindsey Graham wants to see more American boots on the ground fighting ISIS. Do you agree? Let us know. This is called a big move by the administration, putting in 450 extra troops to Iraq as early as this summer. They're not supposed to be fighting. They're supposed to be training. Is that a reasonable assessment of what happens when you're on the ground in a war zone?

Let's discuss all this with Representative Seth Moulton. He's a Democrat from Massachusetts on the House Armed Services Committee; also, a decorated Iraq War veteran. First of all, Congressman, as always, thank you for your service.

And now we'll take on the news of these numbers. Do you believe, even if 450 are put on the ground as trainers, is this a big shift? Is this a new plan? Is that the right way to describe it?

REP. SETH MOULTON (D), MASSACHUSETTS: That's not the way I see it. And I spoke yesterday with the White House and I met with the Iraqi ambassador, but this is a place where I disrespectfully agree with the president.

I think we need a serious long-term political strategy for Iraq before we put more young Americans into harm's way.

And make no mistake: ISIS is a national security threat to the United States. And the only way we're going to defeat ISIS is to eliminate that political vacuum in Iraq into which they have grown.

But that's the point: it's fundamentally a political problem. The Iraqi government didn't get defeated by ISIS because they were poorly trained. ISIS came in, and the Iraqi army put their weapons down and went home, because they had lost faith in their government. And we're not going to fix Iraqi politics by training Iraqi troops.

CUOMO: Here's what's working well against your team right now from the Republicans. You have no plan. Lindsey Graham, the senator, takes it a step further. It seems to me that what he means by no plan is "you don't have enough people fighting on the ground."

Do you believe that the president has no plan? And do you believe the answer is for men and women like you to get back on the ground fighting ISIS?

MOULTON: I don't believe the problem is that we don't have enough troops. I believe we need a serious political plan to fix Iraq.

[07:20:03] And, you know, this really shouldn't come as a surprise, because at the end of the surge, Ambassador Crocker and General Petraeus said, "We have made tremendous military progress, so much so that we can even withdraw troops, but we need to make more political progress."

And when Iraqi politics started to fall apart is when we pulled those advisors out of the minister's -- out of the prime minister's office. That's when Iraqi politics went off the rails. Their own army now doesn't trust them, and we're not going to fix that just by training more troops.

CUOMO: I know that it may be impolitic, or politically incorrect, but why isn't there more discussion down where you are about going around the central government there? If they're going to disenfranchise the Sunnis and they seem content to do that, you know the sectarian problems will continue.

Why not do what the sects are asking and go right to the Sunnis and give them what they want? Go to the Kurds to give them what they want? Why not? Just deal with the obvious problem that way.

MOULTON: Well, I think the point is that we need a serious political strategy. And we need to be involved politically.

Look, this isn't a choice between having a purist Iraqi democracy that's independent or having an Iraqi democracy where America is working the public strings behind the scenes. It's really a choice between America working the puppet strings or Iran working the puppet strings. That's what's going on right now, and that is not in the national security interests of our country.

CUOMO: Are you worried about the march -- we're talking about mission creep. Are you worried about presidential creep, where that, as we go down the road towards the election, men and women start offering up more and more boots on the ground as a way of showing that they're stronger on this attack against ISIS?

MOULTON: Well, I think that is a risk. And it's also important to say that having American military -- military trainers on the ground, I mean, that is really a combat role. I had that mission as a platoon commander in the Marines about ten years ago. And when the Iraqi unit that we were partnering with came under fire, started to get overrun, we went to their assistance. And that started the battle of Najaf, which was some of the most brutal fighting of the war until that time.

So an advisory mission can very quickly become a ground combat mission. I mean, let's not forget: the Vietnam War started as a military advisory mission.

CUOMO: Right. Now, two quick points and I'll let you know because I know you have important things to do. One, that's a big point that you just made. People keep saying advisors, they'll be fine. That's not the reality when you're in a war zone. The second one, though, Vietnam, is that a dangerous analogy at this point? Do you believe there's really any chance that this becomes another Vietnam?

MOULTON: I don't see it becoming another Vietnam right now, but it is important to know that a mission that starts as an advisory mission can become a ground combat mission and mission creep, as you said, can make it an awful lot worse.

So the only really -- the only long-term solution here is to have a serious political strategy, not just to think that we're going to fix Iraqi politics by training their troops.

CUOMO: Congressman Moulton, thank you very much for the perspective on this. Much needed -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Chris. The search for two fugitives is underway. Police surrounding an area very close to the prison they broke out of on Friday night. We will have the latest on this manhunt for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [07:27:08] CAMEROTA: And we are following a developing story.

Police have surrounded the search area looking for two escaped prisoners in upstate New York. This comes from a late-night tip.

Let's bring back CNN's Jason Carroll. He is near the new search area. Jason, what are you seeing?

CARROLL: The search area is in West Plattsburg along Route 374. You can see behind me there is a checkpoint set up there. This section closed of Route 374. It's about a seven-mile section to the east of where the prison is located. As you say, it has been closed ever since last night. That's when someone spotted something suspicious in the area.

At that point, again, last night, they asked residents who live in the area to stay inside, to look their doors. If they had exterior lights, to leave those on. As of this morning, the Saranac Central School District closed as a precaution while the search is underway.

Basically, what we're having out here, Alisyn, is that every single time that here is something suspicious that happens, every single time that there is some sort of a lead that might take investigators someplace, you have to have this type of response.

We saw it Tuesday in Willsboro. We're seeing it right now out here today. In terms of how long Route 374 will be closed, we are hearing it will be closed until further notice -- Ana.

CABRERA: All right. Jason Carroll reporting again in Cadyville, New York.

Joining us now is former senior FBI profiler and special agent Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole.

Dr. O'Toole, thank you so much for spending some time. Let's talk about the search that's underway right now. It has been now going on six days since the escapees got out, and yet no signs of them, seemingly. What's going through your mind as an investigator who's searching this area where we just saw Jason Carroll right now?

DR. MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER SENIOR FBI PROFILER: Well, my concern would be, at the moment or at the point where he's confronted, either by law enforcement or by someone from the general public. When I say "he," I'm referring to, really, Richard Matt. He's the one that just has such an extreme violent tendency.

His -- he would engage in violent behavior, not even as a reaction to being confronted, but he would engage in it, because that's what he likes; that's what he's comfortable with. And the response would very likely be immediate.

And my concern as an investigator would also be that, if he were to have taken hostages, he would not bond with the hostages. So it's very difficult as a hostage negotiator to negotiate with someone who views his hostages as objects. They're just notoriously difficult to negotiate with. So those would be some of the concerns based on Richard Matt's

personality.

CABRERA: Well, they both are hardened criminals. They both are convicted killers. One of them has already killed a law enforcement officer, David Sweat. And you mentioned how dangerous Richard Matt is.

But we haven't heard anything about carjackings, break-ins, robberies since these guys got loose. Is that surprising?

O'TOOLE: A little bit. It really is.