Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Should Charleston Massacre Be Considered Terrorism?; Tip Led To Capture Of Massacre Suspect; Obama: Greater Focus On Gun Control Needed. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 19, 2015 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: So Mr. Kurzman, why do you think so many are resistant to calling this Charleston church massacre terrorism?

CHARLES KURZMAN, PROFESSOR SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL: Well, I think it's difficult for people to think that extremists, who share their side of the political spectrum might engage in something so violent. And just as many Muslims object to having their whole community judged by the actions of this tiny, violent fringe. Just as on the other side, people on the right objecting to be judged or associated with fringe violent extremism.

CUOMO: Yes, except -- you are right. I was certainly was seeing it and I'm sure you are as well that certain people reserve terrorism only for Islamism extremists. That's part of the bigotry we are dealing with here in understanding the threat in America.

But, they are also trying to push away the idea that this was so bad. Yes, it's bad. The guy killed. He's probably really deranged. All this emphasis on hate crime and making it about race and saying it's about terror, there's a resistance here that has nothing to do with reason.

My question to you, Mr. Kurzman, as a sociologist, you are pointing to politics. Why not push him away as a terrorist because he doesn't reflect your politics?

KURZMAN: I think they are trying to distance themselves from him in that way just as most Muslims distance themselves from extremism. But perhaps they can learn something from the survey conducted with colleagues.

We surveyed law enforcement agencies all around the country and found that they report that the number one threat of violent extremism in their jurisdictions is from right wing anti-government white supremacists types of extremists, and not from islamic extremism.

CUOMO: We hear that all the time. People don't care. They are focused on Islam and the war on terror. Peter, we hear this, extremist right organizations. People communicate that now here as some kind of fight on the GOP, a slight. What are they not getting?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Professor Kurzman is absolutely right. If you look at the data since 9/11, 48 Americans have been killed by the extreme right wing or racist or anti- government types. We have seen about 26 Americans killed by jihadi terrorists. People have a hard time processing that.

Obviously 9/11 was one of the hinge events of American history. That is the frame through which terrorism has been judged. But you know, Professor Kurzman's research shows that ordinary American policeman is concerned about right wing terrorism in many parts of the country.

Because they are the people, by the way, who are getting killed. If you look at the attacks, police officers are being targeted whether in Las Vegas or other places around the country where we have seen these kinds of attacks of late.

CUOMO: Yesterday, when we were reporting that the FBI was looking at any connection this young man may have had to extremist groups and they were saying, you know, political right extremist groups, people were upset. Why they can be left extremist political groups.

I think, Mr. Kurzman, I spoke to how politics is toxifying everything around us right now in our culture. Even something like this where race and hate crimes are something that is seen as a political issue. That may be driving the resistance of so many to define it as a hate crime and terrorism even though it plainly is.

KURZMAN: Possibly. Let's not demonize politics. Politics is the life blood of our democracy. Don't say it like a bad word. Also, I would like to point out that, excuse me, the violent extremism of all sorts is a drop in the bucket of all forms of violence.

Far less than 1 percent of the 14,000 murderers we have each year in the United States occur because of ideological political or religious reasons. There's a whole lot of violence out there. Most of it doesn't attract this kind of attention.

CUOMO: It's a strong point and certainly that is something we need to deal with as well although nobody seems to be that willing to. Mr. Kurzman, Mr. Bergen, thank you for the perspective on this.

What do you think? Is it terrorism? If you don't think it's terrorism, why not? Tweet, #newdayCNN or post your comment on facebook.com/newday.

Let's get back to Charleston because that's where the story lives and breathes right now. We need to get as much understanding as we can -- Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris, well, the suspect in the church shooting was captured and he was captured thanks to a woman in North Carolina with a very keen eye. Wait until you hear what she told CNN. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The manhunt for Dylann Roof ended yesterday morning in Shelby, North Carolina, more than 200 miles away from this point in Charleston. It was thanks to a sharp-eyed driver who was on her way to work and she spotted Roof's car. She called her boss, who then alerted police. CNN's Don Lemon spoke with the driver and her boss. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBBIE DILLS, FLORIST WHO SPOTTED SUSPECT: I was on my way to work, taking my normal route to work on Highway 74, coming into King's Mountain. I watched a lot of news coverage about the shootings and stuff. I had seen the pictures of the car and I've seen the pictures of the young man. I had seen all that.

I didn't know what drew my attention to the car and I've seen it was black. Then I also seen it has a South Carolina license plate on it, which kind of made me look again. In my mind I was thinking --

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Were you scared?

DILLS: -- that can't be. Not at that time. Maybe a little scared, jittered thinking about everything going on so just the fact that, you know, it was similar to what I had seen on TV. But, I never dreamed it would be the car.

LEMON: How did you and Todd connect? Did you pick up the phone and call him and say, my gosh, I think I -- Todd, what did she say to you?

[07:40:04] TODD FRADY, CALLED POLICE ABOUT SUSPECT: When she called she said, you know, I think this is the guy from Charleston that shot the people. She said I'm right beside him. I told her, where are you at? She pulled off by then. I said we have to call the police to notify them that, you know, it may be him. Of course, it may not be him. I said it could be.

So, we called the police while she was on the phone. She got back on 74 to catch up with him. He had traveled four or five miles before she could catch up with him.

DILLS: I was going to go back on 74 and try to catch up with him to at least get a tag number. There was something inside me that said it wasn't just -- it didn't look right to me. I had seen the tag on the front of his car and everything was just, you know, I noticed the haircut that he had from watching it on the news.

LEMON: How long did it take the police to get there and resolve all of this and get him?

DILLS: There were right there within seconds. I was behind him at a stoplight. I was very nervous, I will say that. I was nervous. I was able to get the tag number and write down the tag number. All within like maybe 10, 15 minutes there were Johnny on the spot, Kings Mountain Police and the Shelby City Police. They were there.

LEMON: Out of all the people, Debbie and you, Todd, you guys worked as a team. Out of all the people, it was you. So I think I read where you said God had a plan and put you guys in the right place at the right time. Do you believe that? What do you make of that?

DILLS: I know that. That's what it was. It was Him all the way. It was Him from the beginning. It was Him from the time I left my house this morning. It was Him that made me look at that car. It was God who made this happen. It had nothing to do with Debbie. It don't have nothing to do with Todd. It's about Him.

He made this happen. He answered the prayers of those people praying in Charleston last night that were in those circles, holding hands and praying. God heard the prayers of those people. He used us as vessels to get his work done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Chris and Michaela, so often, it is someone in the public who does end a nationwide manhunt, as we saw with this woman, impressive when somebody in a different state, Michaela, can be that alert and observant.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Well, you remember yesterday on air, law enforcement kept saying, we want to share this image. Somebody knows him, somebody has seen him. That's what happened. It worked here. That woman who is brave enough to follow through with it to the point she followed him. She is incredible. Debbie and Todd, a really remarkable pair, Chris, that was magic.

CUOMO: Lucky for it. I just hope that sentiment spreads through the community. They are going to need to come together. They have issues they have to face there. They have issue that is project what we all have to face. She's a great example of how we should be toward one another -- Mich.

PEREIRA: That's right. All right, guys, we are going to take a short break on NEW DAY. The tragedy that happened in the beautiful building behind me is prompting a very strong reaction from all over the nation but the particularly from the White House. Can the government find a way to make these horrific events stop? We are going to speak with an aid to the president coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I have had to make statements like this too many times. We come together filled with sorrow to pray with you today and we'll stand by you tomorrow to bring whoever is responsible for this heinous crime to justice. All of us are heart broken. The community needs us to be at our best as Americans. The lives that were taken from us were unique.

Any shooting is troubling. This has becoming the norm and we take it for granted. At some point, it's going to be important for the American people to come to grips with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: All sad but true. That is President Obama obviously addressing the nation after multiple mass shootings, more than a dozen times in his six years in office. So what do we do about it?

Let's bring in President Obama's assistant and cabinet secretary, Broderick Johnson. Johnson is also the chair of My Brother's Keeper Task Force. We do know that you are going to be launching the initiative in part with this documentary that's coming out.

I want to talk to you about that, but let's deal with what is right in front of us. The problem is obvious or we should say the problems. What are the solutions? What do you think the president can do to make what we saw in Charleston less likely to happen again?

BRODERICK JOHNSON, ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you very much for having me this morning, Chris. You know, Chris, the president called for Congress to pass gun safety legislation now for a number of years. We need Congress to act but, in the meantime, the president has taken action on his own.

Since Newtown, we have either adopted or come pretty far along in 23 different gun safety measures in order to keep guns from being in the hands of the wrong people. We really need Congress to act. The American people are calling upon the leaders of this country to make the events like what we saw in Charleston stop happening.

CUOMO: You have the law against you. The Supreme Court has evolved to a point that recognized the private right. You have the polls against you after Newtown people started saying they didn't think more gun laws would help. Now you have the critics against you saying the president hasn't done enough on gun control. Is that fair criticism that he didn't do what he did for Obamacare for guns?

JOHNSON: Well, I don't think that's fair criticism. The president hasn't given up on these issues by any means. The American people are with the president on this. They want to see more gun safety legislation. We need the Congress. We need other leaders in this country to act. But, the president has not given up on this and this is a very important issue for him.

CUOMO: Fair criticism that he had both houses and he couldn't get it done?

[07:50:12] JOHNSON: No, I don't think that's a fair criticism at all.

CUOMO: Why not?

JOHNSON: Well, the president has not given up on this, but again, the president can't make the Congress act. The president called upon Congress to act and the leaders of the Congress need to act and bring up gun safety legislation.

CUOMO: What do you make of resistance in this country to the idea of this being a hate crime, the idea of this being about race to the idea this should be seen as terrorism. You could think this is everybody on the same page, but it isn't, why?

JOHNSON: Well, there are some very important things from a law enforcement to look at here whether or not it was a hate crime or whether or not it was domestic terrorism. The authorities, local and the Justice Department and the FBI are looking at this.

They will draw conclusions about how to categorize what happened. There is no question, though, this is a terrible tragedy. That there was clearly a measure of hate here and it was really, really awful.

CUOMO: But do you think that the resistance to it is in part a window into the problem we have with race in the first place, that people would rather deny it than deal with it?

JOHNSON: No, I don't think so. I think people across this country are so heartbroken about what would happen and they want to see justice done. Let the investigations play out then see the charges that get brought against the person who committed the heinous crimes.

CUOMO: I hope you are right, I really do. "Brother's Keeper," you have the documentary coming out.

JOHNSON: Yes.

CUOMO: What will we learn in the documentary and what is the hope for the program?

JOHNSON: You know, Chris, it's an inspiring documentary. When the president launched "My Brother's Keeper," he wanted to make sure that not only that we get private and public sector resources in much greater amounts and levels than we have had before.

But the president also said, we need to change the narrative about what boys and young men of color are challenged with and how they are living their lives. He called upon the private and public sector to do things, make commitments.

Discovery Communications made a commitment to produce a documentary that looks at how kids across the country, how especially boys and young men of color across the country and their families and schools are facing tremendous odds, but they are being successful.

They are making a difference and maybe through that, we can make sure that new programs get started and new initiatives get started and people have greater hope, especially the boys and young men of color themselves about what their lives can be like.

CUOMO: Well, the need is great. "My Brother's Keeper" comes with great promise. Good luck with it. Look forward to seeing the doc, Broderick.

JOHNSON: Yes, thank you very much.

CUOMO: All right, Mich, back to you in South Carolina.

PEREIRA: All right, beautiful Charleston, a tough day, a tough week, a tough time here. We have developments for you that are breaking this morning in the Charleston shooting. We are hearing the suspect tell police things. We are going to tell you what he's been saying and also an interesting perspective from one of Dylann Roof's, the gunman's former classmates.

A programming note now, on this Sunday's, "PARTS UNKNOWN," Anthony Bourdain heads to Beirut. He checks out the food scene there. This airs Sunday night at 9:00 Eastern on CNN. We give you a preview now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, HOST, "PARTS UNKNOWN": Here we are, back in Beirut. They got a lot of history in this town, a lot of bad, most of it good. I keep coming back at any opportunity. It's all the good and all the evil in the world in one awesome place -- in the best possible way. You should come here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[07:58:44]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you do it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel?

COOPER: The suspect is in custody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said he was in the church to shoot black people.

DILLS: I was behind him at the stoplight. It was God that made this happen. He answered the prayers of those people.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: I have had to make statements like this too many times.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The heart and soul of South Carolina was broken.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Communities like this have had to endure tragedies like this too many times.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are a strong and faithful state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This wasn't a tornado, it was racist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can't eliminate these types of incidents if we need don't get to the source of the problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of us carrying the name, Emanuel, because God is with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to your NEW DAY. It is Friday, June 19th, it's 8:00 here in the east. I'm Alisyn Camerota live in Charleston, South Carolina. I'm at the Maritime Center. This is where police and local officials have been briefing the media for the past more than 24 hours. Michaela is just a few blocks away. She is at the Emanuel AME Church and Chris is in New York for us.

We do have breaking news right now to tell you about because the gunman in this travesty has reportedly confessed his crimes to police. CNN learning that Dylann Roof told authorities he did open fire inside one of the nation's most historic African-American churches killing nine people.