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S.C. Gov.: Take Down Confederate Flag; Source: Escaped Killers' DNA Found in Cabin; Pete Rose Betting Bombshell; White House Defends Obama's Use of N-Word. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:31:14] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. All eyes on the South Carolina legislature this morning, now that Governor Nikki Haley has called for the removal of the Confederate flag from the state capitol grounds. Senator Lindsey Graham also calling for the flag to come down, calling it a symbol of racism. A vote by state lawmakers can make this happen, and Governor Haley is calling for a special session of the legislature of necessary.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Investigators are hoping that they are closing in finally on two escaped convicts in New York state now that new evidence shows a pair hasn't gotten very far. Police are ramping up the search only 25 miles or so from the prison after DNA from both Richard Matt and David Sweat was found in a cabin. The source also tells CNN the tools that were used in this daring escape may have been passed to the convicts hidden in frozen hamburger meat.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The six Baltimore police officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray have pleaded not guilty. This action comes more than a month after the officers were hit with a slew of charges ranging from murder to false imprisonment. Prosecutors say Gray was illegally arrested in April, suffered a fatal spinal cord injury in the police van. They say officers did not respond to Gray's calls for medical help. The trial right now set for October 13th.

CAMEROTA: Michaela, I actually know what I'm talking about this morning. The U.S. women's soccer team has advanced to the quarterfinals in the World Cup. It was a tough win as they struggled against Colombia, finally gaining momentum in the second half, scoring twice and beating them 2-0 at Commonwealth Stadium. On Friday, the U.S. team heads to Ottawa where they will face China.

PEREIRA: Germany and France, Australia, and yet to be determined Japan and Netherlands winner, and, oh, England and Canada still on deck in the quarterfinals.

CUOMO: That's supposed to be a rout that match, they say.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: For more than 20 years, speaking of sports, Pete Rose stuck to the same story. He insists he never bet on baseball while he was a player, OK? But now, there's new evidence, allegedly, indicating that Rose did bet and heavily, while he was on the field.

To discuss sports columnist for "Bloomberg View", Kavitha Davidson.

First off, do you buy the allegation?

KAVITHA DAVIDSON, BLOOMBERG VIEW: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the thing about Pete Rose the last 20 years, the only thing that's consistent is that he didn't bet as a player. But he's changed every aspect of that as new evidence came forward. And none of this is actually very new. We knew in 1989 when he was banned that we had sown testimony from a bookie that said that he bet while he was player manager from 1984 to 1986. So, I don't think any of this is particularly news to some of us.

CAMEROTA: So, if he was betting while he was playing, is there evidence he tried to throw the games?

DAVIDSON: No, there is not evidence he tried to throw the games. Most, all the bets --

CUOMO: To win.

DAVIDSON: -- that involved the Reds were for the Reds to win. But the thing is, Major League Baseball doesn't make that distinction. Gambling is gambling. It doesn't matter if you are a manager or player. And it doesn't matter if you're betting on or against your team.

CUOMO: Should it matter?

DAVIDSON: I don't think so because, you know, the point of the gambling thing is about perception. It's not necessarily about throwing the game, it's the fact that you could, at some point in the future, have to throw a game. So, even if you are betting on your team to win, if you are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to mobsters, essentially, some time in the future, we could have a threat to baseball's existence the way that we had after the Blackhawks scandal and that's why we have the ban.

CUOMO: Is he the A-Rod -- is he the A-Rod with steroids? The case for A-Rod was a lot of guys are doing this, why does A-Rod have to pay the biggest price? Could you make the same constructive argument about Pete Rose?

DAVIDSON: I don't think so because while A-Rod has actually done his time, Pete Rose served as a really good deterrent against this kind of behavior. You don't have a lot of other people who are caught gambling, whereas with PDAs, you could argue that this is a lot more rampant.

[06:35:03] CAMEROTA: So, what's the evidence? Tell us about this notebook.

DAVIDSON: So, it's a notebook that was found in the course of a mail fraud investigation in 1989 when MLB was investigating Pete Rose. It's been basically hidden and sealed until now. It basically details various bet that Pete Rose and another associate of his made over the course of a couple months in 1986.

CAMEROTA: These are detailed notes. Is this his notebook? Who kept this notebook?

DAVIDSON: It was an associate of his that made the bets. Me is the guy, Bertolini, Pete is Pete Rose and you can see, it's hard to decipher in some of the days were a little bit hard to decipher for the investigators. They found at least 21 days involving Pete Rose.

CUOMO: Any chance he gets out of it, says it wasn't me, it's his notebook, there's no clear indication it is me?

DAVIDSON: I mean, we have no reason to take Pete Rose at his word for anything, and we haven't for a really long time. So, he can say all he wants. But I think that this is pretty much the nail in the coffin for the slim chance he had for reinstatement, he can kind of kiss that good-bye.

CAMEROTA: Does he seem sleazier now?

DAVIDSON: Yes, the condition of getting reinstated when he was first banned was he showed kind of remorse and changed his ways. He lives in Las Vegas. He's still gambling. He's not shown contrition for anything that he's done. So, I don't think there's no chance this goes away.

CAMEROTA: Kavitha, thank you. Great information. Great to have you on.

PEREIRA: All right. New event emerging in the search for the two escaped inmates. Police are focusing on this area only about 20 miles from the prison that they escaped from. What does this tell us about their mindset and what their next actions might be? We're going to get some answers, we hope, from a criminologist who joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:40:51] PEREIRA: DNA from two escaped convicts as law enforcement circling a small town, only about 20 miles from the prison they escaped from. Their DNA was found in a cabin in Owls Head, New York. How can this clue help track down Richard Matt and David Sweat?

I want to turn to Dr. Casey Jordan. She's a criminologist, just the lady to talk to.

Obviously, there's a lot of concern about the things we know, the things we don't know.

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Right.

PEREIRA: Obviously, authorities are working on the latest clue, this peanut butter, according to "The New York Times" --

JORDAN: Yes.

PEREIRA: -- found inside this burglarized cabin in Upstate New York and also, we talk about the fact there was a clue of somebody seeing a man running into the woods. In terms of proximity to this prison, only 20 miles, did that surprise you?

JORDAN: Not at all. This is the best evidence and information we had in the past two weeks. It makes sense. When you start to connect the dots of everything that we have found out in the last two weeks -- now, it's all coming together. So, hunting cabin that belongs to a correctional officer 25 miles from the prison, that is a distance either one of these guys, or both of these guys could cover in a space of a few days.

PEREIRA: OK, a couple points. Prison guard owns the house or a group of them. Does that surprise you?

JORDAN: No.

PEREIRA: Do you think there's something to that?

JORDAN: No, it's much ado nothing.

PEREIRA: OK.

JORDAN: Let me tell you, on the first day of hunting season, you can't even visit the inmate in prison. I know I've tried to do interviews with them. They're like, no visitors, all are out, it's first day of hunting season. They all hunt. It's not -- it's all in the area, it's not surprising.

PEREIRA: In terms of how close it is, do you think they would have fled the area or does this actually make sense that they might not have gotten that far?

JORDAN: This really kind of makes sense that when their plan "A," if it was the get away car with Joyce Mitchell.

PEREIRA: And she said, nope, I'm out.

JORDAN: And yes, and everyone was like, maybe that was all a red herring, maybe they had a plan "B" and that was a distraction to get over to Canada or something. No, I think that was their best plan. When that fell through, they are on foot in woods really having no idea what they are going to do next. They are going to lay low and hope everything blows over so they have more time to figure it out.

PEREIRA: This DNA for you as a criminologist, this is big?

JORDAN: Huge, absolutely huge. If they confirmed that the DNA belongs to one of these guys, we know they were in that cabin as late as Saturday. That's only three days ago. So, that really closes the perimeter of where we can be looking.

PEREIRA: All right. Let's talk about the support network because we know as you mentioned, Joyce Mitchell helped them inside. She's seemingly manipulated perhaps. We don't know. Was she complicit? There was help inside the prison.

But outside the prison, that's what authorities are trying to figure out. Sources seem to tell our Deb Feyerick, they don't believe that they are getting help. What is your thought on that?

JORDAN: They don't believe they are getting help, yet, except that any of these guys gets out and calls some of their associates, some could be prisoners who got out of Clinton who are on the outside, who would be loyal to their friends from prison or maybe relatives. I've got to tell you, when it comes to blood, you'd be amazed how relatives will help their blood, even if they're escaped convicts.

So, we have a lot of sightings or clues going on in western New York, but that is where they are from. So, it's entirely possible they have split up and one of them is in Owls Head, and one of them is in the western New York.

PEREIRA: Do you think they are together or do you think they split up?

JORDAN: If they are smart, they are not together. They feed each other psychologically, so it's entirely possible they stay together. They feel bolsters, more strong and courageous when they see each other.

PEREIRA: The authorities believe they are together.

Let's about the fact that this is up until now, there haven't been a lot of mistakes made. This DNA, this peanut butter found in a burglarized cabin is arguably a mistake they made. We know other evidence, imprint of a shoe or boot, food wrappers, maybe some areas where they may have laid down as a bed, imprinting grass or leaves. Do those leads feel solid to you?

JORDAN: Some of them do, some of them don't. I mean, you can't call a boot print or a bed of grass a mistake. That's just going to happen when you're on the lamb. You don't have time to flap up the gross or something over your footprints all the time. Throwing away a candy wrapper, that was a mistake.

And a cabin in the woods, that's not a mistake, that's survival mode. They can't live in the woods forever without looking for food and water.

PEREIRA: But does this break in sort of speak to a level of desperation?

JORDAN: Yes, desperation that they are winding down. If they don't have a solid plan, there is only so much they can do. They are laying low and that's actually smart. That's the smartest thing they can do.

[06:45:01] PEREIRA: How long can they do that?

JORDAN: But not for long, right? So, it isn't even a mistake, so much it's the end of a trajectory, you can't play this out forever.

PEREIRA: There's no exit here.

JORDAN: They have no exit plan.

PEREIRA: OK, and last but not least, let's talk about what's next. As you mentioned, they can't do this forever. But arguably, we know this kind of hunt by law enforcement can't happen forever. Do you think one group is going to wait out the other and see who can last the longest here?

JORDAN: That's going to be the real test. I mean, they are figuring it out as they go. I think their plan is to get over the Canadian border, because we can cooperate with the Canadian authorities but they don't have the resources we have, and they're going to expend the resources that we have.

So, it is a waiting game. If they can get over the border, or if they can wait this out for six months or a year, then you are solely depending on a sighting by an average citizen to get clued in to where they are again.

PEREIRA: Casey Jordan, great to have you here. Excellent stuff from you. Thank you.

JORDAN: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much, Michaela.

Well, President Obama using a word most consider to be one of most offensive in the English language. Should a sitting president use the "N" word, even if it's to make a point? We will discuss that, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:50:21] CAMEROTA: Lots of reaction this morning to President Obama using the word most people have not uttered in more than a decade. Why did he use the "N" word in an interview and was it appropriate?

CUOMO: Let's bring in CNN political reporter Sara Murray, and CNN senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson.

Good to have you both.

Here is the sound at issue.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Racism, we are not cured of it. And it's not just a matter of not being polite to say nigger in public, that's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. We have -- societies don't overnight completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CUOMO: The question is, first, why do you think, Nia, the president used the word overtly?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes, I mean, I don't think if you listen to what folks out of the White House say, it doesn't sound like it was a calculated move on his part. This was an interview, a podcast that was recorded in a garage.

I think in the flow of the conversation, this came up. In the context of the conversation, it certainly made sense. I know some people are saying that they were shocked to hear him say it. In part I think of the response is both racial and in some ways generational. I think some people weren't shocked at all. I wasn't shocked by it because it made sense.

And I think one of the effects of this was that he was able to punch through the conversation, a clutter of conversation we are all having whether it's on Twitter, whether it's on cable news, whether it's on blogs and in newspapers. He punched through it by using that word.

Again, I don't think it was deliberate. I think that was the effect. I do think, however, though, it is interesting whether or not he stepped on his own message by using that word, because what he was saying, essentially, is racism is our heritage, right? It's in our DNA, it's our birthright, racism is in the way that freedom and liberty is as well.

So, I thought that was an interesting point to make. And it does like the president, in the context of these events, is obviously speaking much more forcefully about race, and in some ways, events have forced him to do that.

CAMEROTA: Sara, it's unusual to hear a politician not being calculated because it, you know, scrambles your brain to think a politician can speak spontaneously. But do you think it's a mark, a sign of the president being more comfortable saying provocative things?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, I think this is a mark of a lame duck president. He is on his way out of the White House. There are clearly points he wants to make, some things he wants to get off his chest. And this was a respective way of doing it.

As Nia pointed out, this really did break through the conversation. We have been talking about this now for a day or so. And he was able I think to make his point.

I know there was a lot of curiosity about why he would say this word, whether it was appropriate. But like Nia said, in the broader context, he was trying to say it's not just about this word. It's about our, you know, sort of subtext of racial history in this country. And I think he just feels freer to talk about this, when you think about the president early on in his term, and how, even when he was running, how resistant he was to talking about race. It's clear you've gotten more comfortable about it and maybe it's the events around the country that have sort of force his hand on that.

CUOMO: I think he absolutely knew that he was using the word and he knew why he was using it and getting us to elevate this conversation was probably his motivation. He knew.

CAMEROTA: Do you think he planned to say it before saying --

CUOMO: I think -- this is a highly, highly intelligent man. He knows the power of this word. He knows that it will get the media yapping. And that's probably what he wants to do, is get this conversation.

He took a risk in order to do it. So far, it's paying off. It feeds into a narrative of, you know, this is a man that criticizes being too calculated, too questioning --

CAMEROTA: Too guarded.

CUOMO: -- too guarded.

CAMEROTA: Sure.

CUOMO: But he can also be very out there and very fearless. Let's play some sound to make that point as well.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OBAMA: It's sort of like an athlete. You might slow down a little bit, you might not jump as high as you used to, but I know what I'm doing and I'm fearless. And when you get to that point --

MARC MARON: Freedom.

OBAMA: Then, you know, also, part of that fearlessness is because you screwed up enough times.

MARON: Sure.

OBAMA: That, you know, that --

MARON: It's all happened.

OBAMA: It's all happened. I have been through this.

MARON: Right.

OBAMA: I have screwed up.

MARON: Right.

OBAMA: I have been in the barrel tumbling down Niagara Falls. I emerged and I lived, and that's always -- that's such a liberating feeling.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Nia, that's pretty insightful to hear a president talk about feeling unplugged in that way.

[06:55:05] HENDERSON: Yes. And in that -- in that conversation, his tone and sort of the cadence he's using, he sounds so relaxed, right? I think if he were in your studio, he probably wouldn't have felt as relax. Again, he was in a garage, not that you guys don't make people feel nice and warm and cozy in that study.

But I think in the context of that interview, he sounded like he was just sort of talking to a friend and reflecting on how he feels in this moment. Again, I do think it's the lame duck effect. He wouldn't have said, I think this word -- I don't think he would have been this outspoken as he has been in this second term. I think the question is how Democrats kind of pick up this language and conversation about race?

We, for instance, heard Hillary Clinton give a major speech this past weekend. She's going to have more conversations about race in Missouri, which, of course, is where Ferguson happened.

So, I think that's the interesting thing. What is this conversation mean going forward for other Democrats, for other folks in the country? And what does it mean for what he's talking about? Which is not that word. It is really this systemic problem of race and racism, that who knows how you could fix it.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HENDERSON: It is through conversation or is it through policy?

CAMEROTA: Speaking of Hillary Clinton, let's move on to the latest polls, because they do show, I think, Sara, we're interested in your analysis, her rebounding.

First, let's show you how she's fairing against -- well, the reason we put this up is because it's against Jeb Bush. Jeb has risen in the latest NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll to the top of the Republican pack. Let me show you here.

This is Hillary at the top of the Democratic pack. So, Bernie Sanders, 15 percent. Jim Webb 4 percent and Martin O'Malley 2 percent. Hillary Clinton, 75 percent. She has a resounding lead and she is leading against Jeb Bush, her closest competitor.

Does that mean she's recovered from whatever dip she was having?

MURRAY: Well, I think that she clearly has been able to gain a lot of ground. She also had her sort of re-launch, re-announcement, whatever you want to call it. And I think that was a very good moment for her. The optics of that were great. People tended to like her speech. She said a lot of things on Democrats minds.

So, I think if you had sort of second thoughts about her, maybe she won you over during that speech.

But I do think when you look at both Jeb Bush and both Hillary Clinton in this poll, it's pretty clear that the panic surrounding them, at least for the moment, may have been overblown.

Now, that said, it is still early. We are seeing Bernie Sanders drawing big crowds in some of these early states. And for Jeb Bush, he has a lot more credible rivals against him than Hillary Clinton does.

So, I would just caution, we are still a long way out. This still could change. For right now, it does look like Hillary Clinton is solidly in the lead. It's hard to call Jeb Bush anything but a front- runner at this point.

CUOMO: And the biggest name Hillary has to be concerned about that isn't in the race yet, and that's Joe Biden.

HENDERSON: Are you making a prediction?

CUOMO: No, I'm just saying that on that side of the aisle, I think that's the only name that would give people cause for concern.

CAMEROTA: Interesting.

All right. We'll leave it on that note, that's a good cliff hanger.

Sara, Nia, thanks so much. Nice to see you, guys.

CUOMO: I like that Nia you tried to get me on that, by the way.

All right. So, we are following a lot of news. Could the searchers be within 48 hours of catching those inmates? Let's get to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suspects may have spent time in a cabin in this area.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not just for DNA consistent with both of the suspects on the run.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The big push will come in the next day or two to flush these guys out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocking new images of the gunmen who confessed to slaughtering nine black people at an historic church.

PEREIRA: Investigators believe he was self-radicalized and acted alone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the manifesto posted on the Web site Roof owned, his racist awakening comes with the death of Trayvon Martin in 2012.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: This is an issue that they should debate and work through, and not have a bunch of outsiders going in and telling them what to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Symbols matter, words matter. This has been a symbol that is very painful.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to your NEW DAY.

Police in Upstate New York may have a break in the search for those two convicts who escaped from a maximum security prison. There is fresh DNA from Richard Matt and David Sweat, it was found in a burglarized cabin just 25 miles from that prison.

CUOMO: The good news is this discovery reinvigorates a search that had all but gone cold. We're also getting new information on how they got those power tools in the first place, and they were certainly smuggled in, but you'll be surprised to hear how.

Let's get to that, beginning our coverage with CNN's Sara Ganim live in Owls Head, New York. She's near the cabin where the DNA was found.

Let's take that first -- Sara.

SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Chris.

It is yet another day of this search with rain in the forecast. Not great news for those search teams out there, but authorities tell us that they are confident that this new lead, this DNA evidence has them on the right track and will lead them to these two fugitives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[07:00:04] GANIM (voice-over): Hundreds of state and federal searchers redeployed --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a confirmed lead for us. We're going to run this to ground.

GANIM: -- flooding this heavily wooded area in upstate New York, over 20 miles from the maximum security prison.