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Escaped Killers' DNA Found in Cabin; Source: Tools Possibly Hidden in Frozen Meat; Investigators Dig Into Massacre Gunman's History; S.C. Governor Calls for Removal of Confederate Flag. Aired 7- 7:30a ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[07:00:09] SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT(voice-over): Hundreds of state and federal officers redeployed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a confirmed lead for us. We're going to run this to ground.

GANIM: Flooding this heavily wooded area in upstate New York over 20 miles from the maximum-security prison.

KEVIN MULVENHILL, OWLS HEAD SHERIFF: I don't think it would take a real woodsman to get on a power line and follow a power line to, say, an ATV trail.

GANIM: Authorities converging here after a witness spotted someone running from one of the area's many cabins on Saturday. Investigators finding the DNA of the escapees, Richard Matt and David Sweat, inside, the camp burglarized. Officials worry the fugitives may be a step ahead of the officers, if they're monitoring police and radio communication.

MULVENHILL: It's very rough terrain. It's not easy to get to. It's not easy to traverse.

GANIM: A restaurant owner says he spoke to the person whose cabin was broken into soon after he made the discovery.

TERRY BELLINGER, LOCAL RESTAURANT OWNER: He stressed the point. He said, "I'm not saying it's them." But he says, "I know somebody broke in our camp, and I saw one guy running away."

GANIM: Officials say there is still no evidence the fugitives have any kind of support network outside of the prison, but they are reviewing months' worth of hotel registries in the area.

MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: If you return to your camp, if anything is out of place, call 911 immediately. No lead is too small for us to investigate.

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GANIM: Now, I want to mention that the cell service out here is not great. It's actually very spotty. And we heard investigators say yesterday, that they are still worried that these two fugitives may be monitoring police radio communications in some way. And last week, when we talked to the district attorney in Clinton County, he did tell us that those two inmates were spotted by other inmates in the prison with cell phones before the breakout -- Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That's good new information. Sara, thanks so much for that.

And there's questions still brewing over how the convicts got those tools they needed to break out of prison, as Sara said. Some of those details now coming to light, along with who else in the prison may have lent a hand. CNN's Boris Sanchez is in Cadyville, New York, with more on that. What more do we know this morning, Boris?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

We're here at a command post about five miles from the Clinton Correctional Facility. And we're learning that investigators are looking at whether or not these inmates got tools into their cells through a frozen pack of hamburger meat. Officials looking at whether or not Joyce Mitchell may have convinced a guard to pass that meat through without going through a metal detector. That is a violation of prison policy.

Keep in mind, because these men were on the honor block, they were allowed to cook for themselves. So, it wouldn't have been out of place for them to have food inside their cells.

As Sara mentioned, we know detectives are also looking at hotel registries across the area, trying to see if anyone who knows these men may have stayed nearby in the past six to eight months.

Meantime, Gene Palmer, a CEO at the prison, was questioned by investigators for about 14 hours this weekend. He has not been charged, though. He is still on administrative leave. His attorney says he knew nothing about the plan to escape -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate the reporting.

Let's bring in Matthew Horace. He's a security expert and former ATF special agent in charge.

And Matthew, you've been making a point from the beginning that is often tough for us in the media to grasp and certainly the audience. They are not telling us everything. They know things, certainly, about the manhunt that they don't want to release, because the bad guys can very easily find out what they know. And they're going to be cautious.

Does that methodology go through every different phase of this investigation?

MATTHEW HORACE, SECURITY EXPERT: It absolutely does. As we talked about earlier last week, there are four phases of this thing. There's a security breach. There's the escape. There's the manhunt, and there's eventually going to be a capture.

The only way we live out the phases of this investigation is slowly, methodically, ensuring that we don't compromise information, but we provide enough information to the public in the interest of public safety.

CUOMO: So you want to catch the bad guys, because they're dangerous, and they need to be back in prison. You also want to make sure that other guys won't be able to do this. And you have to fix it before you can put those guys back in the same prison, because then they have contacts.

That takes us to our new information. The meat with the tools in the frozen meat that got to the guys. One, how do guys like this have access to big bunches of frozen meat? Why would they have that?

HORACE: Well, it's hard to say why they would. They shouldn't. But there's several areas of concern for us involving the entire security breach. How did they get access to meat? How did they get access to tools? How did they get access to saws?

CUOMO: We knew the tools were in the meat. Right? We saw the pictures in the papers this morning. But it's not like they have a hot plate in there. Right? It's not like they're having a chili contest where they are, right?

HORACE: Well, as we discussed yesterday and the day before, there's going to be a domino effect in terms of who gets investigated, who gets charged, who gets disciplined and, ultimately, who may get fired and/or indicted in charge, because there are more than just one, or two, or three people involved with this entire issue.

CUOMO: And we don't want to paint, you know, with scandal the person who's on administrative leave right now. But you are fairly confident there's no way they did this on their own with only Joyce Mitchell.

HORACE: True. Absolutely. There are too many elements. It's a very complex and sophisticated plan. There are way too many elements that are involved with this plan. And there's going to be more people that get addressed as a result of the investigation.

[07:05:11] CUOMO: All right. That takes us to the cabin. There are a lot of intriguing details surrounding the cabin. But what we know, according to the searchers, is the headline is, they were there. And they would be confident about it because the DNA would not be wrong. Yes?

HORACE: DNA places them in that cabin at some point over the course of the last several weeks. Not only that, now we know that they could be -- they could have made stops at other cabins in the area. There are other people that might have seen lights on. What did they eat? Where did they sleep? What other DNA is in that cabin or other areas?

They've spoken to the owners of the cabin. The law enforcement now knows what was in the cabin, and we still don't know that. CUOMO: Do -- so we don't know whether or not they got access to heavy

weaponry or anything like that, if it were a hunting cabin or something like that.

HORACE: What clothes are in the cabin, backpacks, clothes, guns, knives. Law enforcement knows that at this time.

CUOMO: The good news or the common-sense good news would be, all right, good, so they're still in the area. So we don't have to worry about the Mexico, the Canada and everything else. Would that be a mistake?

HORACE: No, I think we have to evaluate all leads as they come in as credible leads until we eliminate them. But the bottom line is this: they were there within the last 14 days. We now know, in the interest of public safety, that the public is aware that they may still be in the area, and we know that our leads are credible.

CUOMO: What does it mean that the Marshals' sources are saying we think we're 24 to 48 behind? The dogs have the scent. You know, that's attributable to reports that are out there today. Could that be a tactic or do you think that that is representative?

HORACE: I think it's fairly well-representative, but it could also be a communication tactic so we don't compromise our ability to be able to keep this search on methodically; work out our leads and ultimately capture these -- these suspects.

CUOMO: It's always interesting. Because look, what do we want? We want these guys and these women to do their job and get these people. But it is certainly true that they do play the media, as well, sometimes to send messages out there that could be deceptive. Because their interest is not pleasing the media. It's catching the bad guys.

HORACE: Well, in the interest of public safety and crisis management, there's a balance and a counter balance between what information is put out officially and what information is leaked out strategically. And ultimately, that all leads towards the end goal; in this case, the capture of these suspects.

CUOMO: Matthew Horace, I know guys like you have been playing me for years. Thank you for confirming it.

HORACE: Thank you.

CUOMO: And we're going to follow this information as it comes along. Any new details will get to you.

And please, make sure to tune in tonight at 9 p.m. for a special CNN report, "The Great Prison Escape." We'll take you through everything that's going on, why they believe it and what could happen next and when -- Mick.

ALISYN PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Chris. The latest now for you on the Charleston church massacre. Investigators are digging deeper into the background of the gunman as the city prepares this week the solemn task of burying the victims.

Want to turn to Charleston, bring in our Alina Machado with the very latest for us -- Alina.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Michaela, the president, the vice president and the first lady are all scheduled to be in Charleston on Friday for Reverend Clementa Pinckney's funeral, with the president set to deliver the eulogy at the service.

But the big headlines here in town, in Charleston remain that Confederate flag. This is the front page of the paper. We're told that there's going to be a rally that is planned at the statehouse today, later today, calling for the removal of the Confederate flag.

Meanwhile, we're learning a little bit more about Dylann Roof. A former classmate described him as being wild, but not necessarily violent. We know that he flunked the ninth grade twice and eventually dropped out of high school.

And some of his friends have said that he was a heavy drinker and also was abusing prescription drugs. In February, he did tell police that his parents were pressuring him to get a job. All details that I'm sure investigators are going to be taking a very close look at in the coming days and weeks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely, Alina. Thanks so much for all that background.

Well, a U.S. airstrike in Iraq killed a key suspect who was involved in the deadly 2012 attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, we're told Ali Ani al-Harzi was a known ISIS operative. He was killed by a drone strike in Mosul last week. U.S. intelligence officials believe al-Harzi planned hundreds of suicide attacks around the world.

PEREIRA: New this morning, parts of Illinois in serious distress. A series of weather systems, including fierce tornadoes, ripping across that state. We're looking at Coal City here, a twister touching down there overnight, flattening neighborhoods. Rescue crews are now scrambling to find any victims who might be trapped.

In Sublette, Illinois, west of Chicago, emergency officials say damage to a major campground is considered catastrophic. They have been able to rescue five people who were trapped inside trailers there.

CUOMO: Hollywood composer James Horner feared dead this morning after his single engine plane crashed in a remote area near Santa Barbara. His lawyer could not confirm that he was actually at the controls, but his assistant told "The Hollywood Reporter" that he has died. The 61- year-old Horner won two Oscars for the music from "Titanic," including writing that famous hit, "My Heart Will Go On."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC: "MY HEART WILL GO ON")

(END VIDEO CLIP) [07:10:20] CUOMO: He's had an amazing career, by the way. He's been

nominated for ten Academy Awards; composed for other films like "Avatar," "Apollo 13," "Braveheart," and "A Beautiful Mind," as well. So we'll say on that. He would certainly be missed.

CAMEROTA: You don't necessarily know his name or his face, but you have sung his songs.

PEREIRA: Yes.

CUOMO: He's done the biggest thing you can do when it comes to storytelling: he's made you feel.

PEREIRA: Yes. All of those songs did just that in those films.

CAMEROTA: There you go.

PEREIRA: What a loss.

CAMEROTA: Well, support builds for South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from capitol grounds. A top Mississippi lawmaker says he wants the symbol struck from their state flag, as well. But there is opposition. We'll hear from both sides, next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA): Today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill will to say it's time to move the flag from the capitol grounds.

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CUOMO: South Carolina governor Nikki Haley calling for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state house grounds in the wake of the massacre at that Charleston church.

So now, calls to remove Confederate symbolism is expanding across the south. Flags are an obvious target. The state of Mississippi has a top lawmaker that wants the rebel imagery removed from his state's flag. And there are really, like, seven that will wind up falling in this category that have some type of reference in their flag to the confederacy and what it stood for.

Here with us now is someone who says we've got to look at the other side. His name is Greg Stewart. He's a member of the Mississippi division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

It is good to have you with us. We want both sides of this. Make the case for your flag and for the symbol.

GREG STEWART, MISSISSIPPI DIVISION, SONS OF CONFEDERATE VETERANS: Well, good morning, Chris.

The state of Mississippi had a referendum in 2001, and any -- any student of Mississippi politics can go back and look at the returns, precinct by precinct, and see that, instead of having a divisive argument over the matter, we prevailed 65 percent; and we carried precincts that the talking heads would never have guessed that we could have carried.

And that's because the flag represents us all. We all got here through a common history, and that flag represents that.

I remember, even before the Mississippi flag issue came up, that Arkansas had an issue. And it was your mayor, Edward Koch, that made the point that changing out stuff like that on a whim is probably good psychology but poor policymaking. And I would have to agree with him. This kind of knee-jerk reaction, besides being knee-jerk, is actually insulting.

What the black South Carolinians want and deserve is respect, and you don't get that when you just throw a cotton flag at them or in a wastebasket and pretend like everything is fine. That doesn't solve anything, and they know that.

CUOMO: Well, I don't think anybody is saying, "We'll change the flag and do nothing else."

And if you look into the returns on the referendum that you refer to in Mississippi, there are a lot of theories about why the numbers were that way. There are some people who are just reconciled to the fact that they're never going to change anything. And that kept a lot of blacks at home. And you had about a 50/50 breakdown of whites, if you looked at it, in terms of who was registering the votes against the referendum.

But you're right, it certainly passed. And that takes you to a bigger point, which is, ironically, what started the Civil War. The idea of is popular sovereignty enough? Is popularity enough for something to become a symbol and a standard in a place, or does the moral imperative matter, as well?

And while it is a shared heritage, Greg, that heritage means very different things to people who are white and people who are black. And it's a time that you respect the difference.

STEWART: Well, I would disagree with you on that. There are -- you're casting black Mississippians as weak and in some kind of need of a paternalistic, you know, father over them. That's not the case at all. The black Mississippians that I know are strong. They like the flag. There are several of them that I know that wear it or display it. It's part of their history, too.

And to sweep it under the rug like none of that ever happened is insulting to them. It did happen. And it is part of our history. And we should examine it, and talk about it and celebrate it.

The image that I think you're talking about is the battle flag in the corner. Yes, it was used during the War Between the States. Yes, part of the reasons for the war was centered around slavery. There were other issues, too, taxation being one. But they know that. And they know that they got here not probably the best way. You know, coming here on a slave ship is not the best way to get to this country. But it was the way that we did get here, some of us.

CUOMO: Do you think that -- do you think that you are greatly mitigating the impact of slavery and the hard, hard feelings that generations of African-Americans have about that? You know, you seem to be soft-pedaling a little bit: you know, coming on a slave trip -- ship is not the best way to get here. And yes, we all know that it was about slavery, and that's not ideal.

You know, I think you're being a little too gentle with something that many people still point to as the biggest thing holding back African- Americans today, which is the slave legacy.

STEWART: I don't think I'm being gentle at all. I'm acknowledging that there was an institution called slavery, and it was a terrible thing.

CUOMO: But then why would you want to hold up a symbol of that and say, "We should all still be united under this"?

STEWART: For the same reason I would defend the Christian cross. There are many instances of brutality and things we don't want to talk about that were performed under the guise -- under the Christian cross, and it's still our symbol. It's still worth looking back on that. And...

CUOMO: Because fundamentally, the cross, whether you believe in God or not, represents a virtue of a set of believers. Can you say the same thing about the Confederate battle flag, that you believe there are a lot of blacks that are united in their belief of what that flag stands for?

[07:20:13] STEWART: Well, the election returns indicate something. They voted for the flag.

CUOMO: But they could -- we don't know how many blacks voted for the flag, and because the analysis, as I said, gets tricky. And I don't want to get too in the weeds.

But you also have to understand that there's a factor of acceptance for some people, too, that they feel it was not worth fighting this flag; they'll never do anything about it. But I do think it's a leap to go from that to the idea that you think blacks like the Confederate flag.

STEWART: Well, I think probably the difference between your take on it and mine is I don't see the black population in Mississippi or anywhere else as one monolithic group that thinks one way.

CUOMO: About slavery?

STEWART: About anything. They are as independent and free-thinking as you and I are.

CUOMO: Yes, I accept the complete equality of the races. That really should not be a topic for debate. However...

STEWART: Well, you brought it up.

CUOMO: ... I do think there are certain things that unite people. And I think that white and black should be united behind the idea that slavery was an abomination and that certainly the black population, the African-American population, does not have a division in its ranks about whether or not it is a tradition to be celebrated and a heritage to be remembered fondly.

STEWART: OK, well, then you just said it. You consider them to be one group that thinks one way.

CUOMO: About slavery. Yes. That would be my assumption.

STEWART: And I would tell you that there are independent, free- thinking black individuals that would differ with you on every issue. And, you know, I think they would resent what you just said.

CUOMO: Which is?

STEWART: That they think as one group. That's not true.

CUOMO: About slavery.

STEWART: About anything.

CUOMO: Not parenthetical.

STEWART: Not about anything. Why do you have to make them all fit in one box?

CUOMO: Because slavery, it's like saying all Jews have different minds, including about the Holocaust. No. They don't like the Holocaust, because it was a horrible thing that befell them.

I think similarly, slavery is not something that divides the African- American community about whether it was good or bad or something that should be remembered as a positive in how they got here. Because you know, slave ship, not the best way to get here, but they're still here. I don't think that's the way they reconcile themselves with the history.

STEWART: Well, I think your approach is what is insulting to them. They don't -- giving up a flag or burying a flag somewhere is not what they want or what they deserve. What they want is respect. And that's the one thing that, what I would call the white liberal races can never give them.

They will give up the flag and pat them on the back and tell them they did something. But they've done nothing. And you've not fooled anyone, especially black people.

CUOMO: Well, I think that you're making a good point. But you also may be making the point against interest in terms of keeping the flag. Is it enough? Of course not. Is it a start? It could be. And is that something that could motivate more change? Yes.

And your assumption that white liberals, as you said, or whatever that phrase is, will give them changing the flag and nothing else speaks to a pessimism that we're trying to move past in this country, that changing the flag would be a step in a direction, not an end in of itself. Does that make sense?

STEWART: Well, I'm trying to follow you. What are the other steps that you would suggest we need to make following...?

CUOMO: I think this dialogue is an important one and why this flag needs to change and what it means and the vestiges of racism and how it shapes perceptions about culture. I think this dialogue is very good. I think it will be good to see it take place in your state and see how it's done, as well.

But I don't think that anyone is seeing changing the flag as the ultimate move. It is certainly just a step at best.

STEWART: You could have the same dialogue in New York City where you are. But the thing is, you're not getting to the point, which is they deserve respect, not more conversation. And I asked you for some specifics, and you're not giving me any specifics. You're talking about dialogue.

CUOMO: Look, I think that there are lots of ways to look. You have trouble with voting in different districts in Mississippi.

STEWART: No, we don't.

CUOMO: Yes, you do. And you have problems with rationing of resources in Mississippi.

But I think that this doesn't have -- this doesn't have to be about, well, what else could you have in the alternative instead of the flag? I think that the idea of changing the flag in and of itself would be a good one and respected by the African-American community. And you will see it for yourself in your state, if in fact you take it up as a referendum.

But Mr. Stewart, I appreciate your ideas on here.

STEWART: Thank you.

CUOMO: I do. And I appreciate the exchange. You're welcome back to NEW DAY as this story goes forward. Appreciate it, sir.

STEWART: Yes, sir. Good morning.

CUOMO: Mick.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris. President Obama says that he has become fearless, and that is making him a better president now than ever before. Is that what's behind the straight talk on race? John King will take a look, "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:28:52] PEREIRA: DNA from two escaped convicts in New York state found in a burglarized cabin. This discovery has police ramping up the search for Richard Matt and David Sweat. That cabin is merely 25 miles or so from the prison they escaped from. A source also telling CNN the tools used in the daring escape may have been passed to the convicts hidden in frozen hamburger meat.

CAMEROTA: Another young American facing charges for allegedly planning attacks on U.S. soil in the name of ISIS. Nineteen-year-old Justin Sullivan from North Carolina allegedly discussed plans to carry out mass shootings and a bombing in the U.S. The feds say Sullivan obtained an illegal silencer from an undercover agent to use in those planned attacks.

CUOMO: The huge data hack affecting millions of current and former federal employees may be four times larger than previously thought. Yes, four times larger. That means 18 million current, former and even prospective federal employees may have been affected by the cyber-breach at the Office of Personnel Management. The agency's director will be among witnesses called to testify at a Senate hearing today. Investigators believe the Chinese government is behind the hack.

PEREIRA: All right. Here it is. Today, Tom Brady appealing his four-game Deflategate suspension. The New England Patriots quarterback expected to meet face-to-face with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell.