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Trump Renews Attacks on Illegal Immigration; Eight Dead, Five Missing in Utah Flash Floods; North Korea Threatens to Use Nuclear Weapons Against U.S.; Delta State University Shooting Suspect Dead. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired September 15, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carly! Carly! Carly!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carly! Carly! Carly!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carly! Carly! Carly!

[05:58:05] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Carly is giving me a little bit of a hard time, even though her poll numbers are horrible.

He's a nice man. I think he's in second place.

Nobody is going to be able to do the job that I'm going to do. Nobody.

So, the debate. I hear they're all going after me.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If somebody comes at me, bam, I'll come back at them. Don't worry about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is indeed a tragic moment for this university.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The morning begins for Professor Schmidt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overnight, officials announced the 45-year- old suspect, Shannon Lamb, is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight people killed following heavy rains and flash flooding in southern Utah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of the victims mothers and small children.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) But enough about us. Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It's Tuesday, September 15, 6 a.m. in the East.

Now, most of the GOP presidential candidates are off the trail and in the lab right now, preparing for Wednesday night's primetime showdown right here on CNN. I say most because one man aka, the Donald, is once again following his own rules.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That's right. Frontrunner Donald Trump skipping the prep work to campaign in Texas. And he's talking again about his signature issue, illegal immigration. This as hundreds of Latinos marched in protest.

So we begin our coverage with CNN's Athena Jones. She's live from the Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. That is the site, of course, of tomorrow's big debate.

What's the latest, Athena?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

Well, you've heard of doubling down. Trump last night in Dallas tripled and quadrupled down on his fiery rhetoric on immigration, while attacking his critics. And the crowd there seemed to love it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONES (voice-over): Just hours away from the CNN GOP debate, the front-runner shrugging off mounting attacks from his rivals.

TRUMP: I hear they're all going after me. Whatever. Whatever.

JONES: Donald Trump boasting about his 13-point lead to a crowd of 18,000.

TRUMP: We are killing it.

JONES: And none of his competitors were off limits.

TRUMP: Carly is giving me a little bit of a hard time, even though her poll numbers are horrible.

Ben Carson, he's a nice man. I think he's in second place.

You have Jeb Bush, governor of Florida. You have a sitting senator in Florida, Marco Rubio. And the poll comes out the other day, Trump is leading in Florida.

JONES: Again, striking a heavy on style, light on substance approach, the billionaire candidate neglected to talk policy Monday night, instead claiming success with women voters.

TRUMP: I'm surging with women. I have such respect for women.

JONES: Though he also highlighted his controversial comments about FOX News anchor Megyn Kelly.

TRUMP: We're going to have so many victories that at some point they're just going to be coming out of your ears. Though I have to be careful what I see about coming out of somebody's ears. I have to be careful.

JONES: Inside, cheers on a hot-button issue, immigration.

TRUMP: We have to end this sanctuary cities crap fast.

The whole subject of anchor babies, we didn't say that somebody could be pregnant for nine months, come across the border, have a baby; and now it's ours, and we have to take care of the baby forever.

JONES: While outside, hundreds of Latinos protested Trump's harsh rhetoric on the issue, marching under the slogan "Dump the Trump."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His words have hurt many people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have to respect each other. We're human beings, and we're here to stay.

JONES: Now the big question remaining: Will Trump tweak his strategy before taking center stage at Wednesday night's debate?

HUGH HEWITT, HOST, "THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW": He's had the most television training of any candidate in the modern political era. He's a highly skilled television professional. So he's not going to change that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Hugh Hewitt there giving his take. He'll be part of the...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: A lot to talk about.

CUOMO: All right. So what are the strategies that these different candidates are going to use? How much of it will be about Trump? Let's discuss.

CNN national political reporter Maeve Reston, already positioned outside the library; and Errol Louis, CNN political commentator, political anchor at New York One news.

We just heard Hugh Hewitt there say Trump has got a lot of experience on TV. True. But he's got even more a lot of experience doing something else that arguably is what's working best for him, branding. People think when he says Trump is leading in Florida, he's being arrogant.

But what he's really doing is disassociating the brand from himself. And isn't that a big reason that people are grabbing on?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, sure. It's one of the many rules that he has rewritten. Most people wouldn't do that. They talk about themselves. They talk about growing up in a log cabin or something humble, roots.

CUOMO: Talk about somebody else.

LOUIS: Exactly right. And Trump instead talks about Trump. He is building a brand. He is connecting with voters. He is doing all of these things.

But I think the challenge, though, is seeing that this has led him to 30 percent, in some cases 40 percent. That's not a majority. Six out of ten Republican voters are still saying, "I want to look at somebody else."

The fact that it's spread out over, you know, a dozen candidates, is the temporary reality. That's not going to be the reality forever. But yes, Donald Trump has a small group of people who like the brand who will sit in that stadium.

CAMEROTA: It's not small. Look at that stadium. He's attracting a stadium-sized crowd.

LOUIS: Well, I mean, as Hugh Hewitt pointed out, they didn't come for substance. They didn't get any substance. They didn't come for substance. They came for entertainment, inspiration, perhaps, which is not a negative thing. It's certainly worth doing. Does this translate into votes, though?

CAMEROTA: Maeve, as a political reporter, Wednesday night has to be your dream come true. So tell us who you will be keeping an eye on? Aside from Trump, who are you going to be watching Wednesday night?

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, this is really a high stakes game for all of these guys who have slid back in the pack as Trump has taken a greater and greater part of the vote share.

Obviously, all eyes are on Ben Carson who's been kind of sliding up behind Trump, perhaps threatening to eclipse him a little bit. But certainly, the biggest test really is for Jeb Bush, who was once thought to be the nominal front-runner here, $100 million raised by him and his allies.

And he's been in really intensive debate prep. Obviously, he's been kind of out of the arena for a few years now. So trying to synthesize those talking points, come across in a way that's really empathetic and connect with voters. And at the same time, show that he can channel the same kind of anger that is fueling Trump's rise here.

So I think it will be really interesting. Obviously, like someone like Scott Walker has almost kind of fallen off the stage if you look at the polls. He's down at 2 percent. So it will be really incumbent on them to do something that creates some fireworks and brings some attention back to their campaign.

[06:05:01] CUOMO: Maeve, you know, you make a point about Jeb wanting to bring the same passion and anger or -- or he's going to do something in politics that they call the positive opposite, and that's where Carly Fiorina comes in. She doesn't want to match the hostility of Donald Trump, because she thinks it's counterproductive. And now she's got a great opportunity.

Let's play her ad, which I think tees up what Donald may have to deal with tomorrow night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ladies, look at this face. And look at all of your faces. The face of leadership. The face of leadership in our party. The party of women's suffrage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Maeve, if Carly comes tomorrow, and that is her line against Donald Trump of exposing the insult but also becoming a positive opposite, how could it work?

RESTON: Well, that won't be the only thing she's bringing tomorrow night. I covered her 2010 Senate campaign out here in California. I am sure that she has some amazing lines up her sleeve.

She's one of the most practiced and just sharp candidates on a debate stage. She's incredibly disciplined. And she knows how to throw a punch or a jab Donald Trump's way in a way that comes off as benefiting her. You know, a little bit softer touch. We saw that in the first debate. So I'm definitely expecting to see some fireworks from Carly.

This is totally her arena. She loves this kind of back and forth. And she did a really great job against Barbara Boxer when she was running against her out here in southern California.

CAMEROTA: So Errol, what is the strategy? Are people going to wait for Trump to hurl an insult or are they going punch first?

LOUIS: I think some of the candidates are certainly waiting to sort of throw something. That they've spent a lot of time crafting something. And I think the Scott Walkers of the field, the people who are maybe feeling a little desperate as they see their numbers dwindle, are going to try and get some piece of his glow.

Carly Fiorina, that ad we just saw, that's exactly the right way to do it, is you sort of bounce off it. And only if you've been following it the way we've been following it would you even realize that this was a Trump line that she's now sort of turning to her advantage.

The reality is, you've got to go out and you've got to make your own message, play by your own rules. If you get -- if you try to play the Donald Trump game, he will blow you right away. He does have 14 years of television experience. It is a crowded stage. It's not like a one-on-one debate like most of the political candidates have been in before. You know, you run for Senate, you run for governor, there might be two on the stage. There might be three on the stage. Thirteen on the stage? Eleven on the stage? It's never been done.

So what most people will do, I think, if they want to be smart about it, is either save the line or just get rid of it in the first round of questioning and then go back to building their own brand.

CUOMO: They have a bigger concern now, Maeve. Right? I mean, Donald Trump is always the target that we put out there for the rest of the field. But now they're worried about attrition. Now that Governor Perry is out, a lot of these campaigns are talking about, well, who's going to be next? We need to survive more than we need to take out Donald.

If you had to pick two or three candidates that tonight need to make a case that they're in for the long haul tomorrow night, who do you think they'll be?

RESTON: Well, I mean, Jeb Bush has got to show that he's going to bring it, you know. He's got a lot of donors that are jittery about his slide in the polls.

Rubio needs to have a really strong performance if he's going to continue to argue that he can be the youthful, charismatic, standard bearer for the party.

Certainly, Ben Carson to show that he can match Trump.

But at the same time, we have to remember that one of the most dangerous dynamics of a debate is too many people potentially piling on Trump. That can actually work to his benefit, if you end up having those kinds of dynamics.

CAMEROTA: Right.

RESTON: So there's a lot at play here, especially with the group dynamic.

CAMEROTA: You don't want to see Trump as the victim. But speaking of turning lemons into lemonade, Jeb Bush is also doing that. He has a new campaign out, responding to Trump telling him to speak English while in America. Watch a portion of this.

CUOMO: Or American, as Sarah Palin says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLUMBA BUSH, WIFE OF JEB BUSH: I have lived more than half my life here. So you know, I agree that we all have the same interests, the same feelings.

J. BUSH: (SPEAKING SPANISH)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. That was Jeb speaking Spanish and his wife speaking English, Errol. LOUIS: Great -- great ad. It will enrage part of the Republican

base, for sure. I would predict that it will backfire on him to a certain extent. Because this is not what the core base, the people that we think he's trying to get. If he's trying to pull some of the Trump voters, that ad is not going to do it.

And by the way, somebody who hasn't been mentioned, Governor Kasich, I think, is going to have a big night this week.

CUOMO: There you go.

LOUIS: He's going to have to really -- he had a bit of an excuse the last time. He came into the race right before the debate.

CUOMO: Right.

LOUIS: His numbers didn't move all that much. And so -- but he had a good performance on stage.

This time he's got to do it, and it's got to be something that's substantial. Because if he's going to be looked at as an alternative to Jeb Bush as the establishment's best hope of having a solid conservative who can actually have some -- some crossover appeal, the Jeb Bush ad is not going to do it. If John Kasich has something better to offer, we need to see it this week.

[06:10:06] CAMEROTA: Right. I mean, that's the paradox. Of course, substantial in a soundbite. You know, in this format, it's hard to be substantial...

CUOMO: I'm with -- you're on fire. Governor Kasich has made it clear he does not want to get into a blood bath with Donald Trump. The problem is, how do you steal some of his fire and not draw fire?

CAMEROTA: We have a lot to talk about. Errol, Maeve, thanks so much for starting us off right.

Tomorrow is the big day. Tune in to the CNN Republican presidential debate. It starts at 6 p.m. Eastern. Then the primetime event with 11 candidates on stage begins at 8 p.m. You won't want to miss this high-stakes debate from the Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley -- Mick.

PEREIRA: All right. We have some serious news. A situation breaking overnight. At least eight people are dead. Several more are missing after heavy rain caused roadways to quickly flood along the Utah/Arizona border.

Looking now at this dramatic rescue that had unfolded on video, raging floodwaters surround a car. The passenger pulled out one by one.

Let's turn to CNN meteorologist Chad Myers, live now with the latest. Boy, what a concern there.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: That story there had a good ending, but there are other stories that did not. This storm started yesterday afternoon about noon. And then there was another storm around 3 p.m., and all of this weather focused right on Colorado City and Hildale. And there was one flash flood, a second later on and some people were caught off-guard.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the front yard.

MYERS (voice-over): Dramatic video this morning showing a massive and deadly flash flood ripping through a small town on the Arizona/Utah border. You can hear the screams from shocked residents, stunned by the rushing water.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoa!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's happening right now?

MYERS: The cause: heavy rain falling in the mountains above a canyon town, causing the river to rise rapidly, catching onlookers off-guard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoa. It's starting to slide.

MYERS: Watch this video of rescue crews racing to save a family from a car, moments from being swept away.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're getting everybody out.

MYERS: Children pulled quickly from car windows.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MYERS: The flood so strong, trees uprooted by the current, pile up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's pretty powerful.

MYERS: A search is still under way for several people. After two vehicles carrying a total of 16, parked to watch the flood, were swept away by the intense rush of water. At least eight have been found dead. All of the victims, mothers and small children. The youngest just 4 years old.

KEVIN BARLOW, ASSISTANT FIRE CHIEF: There's still active floodwaters and very dangerous, very treacherous. The banks are caving off. A more significant flood than we've had for quite some time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MYERS: Water went from zero feet in this canyon river to eight to ten feet and then back down very rapidly. The fire chief said the sun came back out but not before so much tragedy there.

We talk about fires across parts of the west. There's an awful lot more weather coming for those firefighters, as well. Valley Fire, Butte Fire, hundreds of smaller fires across California. About to encounter a cold front. Now that could mean some rain, but that could also mean significant wind along the front itself.

Firefighters don't want wind. Certainly, they just want the rain. But with the wind here, 19, 16, 24 miles per hour at times today, that will take those embers and throw them downwind, Chris. You never want those embers to blow farther away. Because you can make more fires just from those embers alone.

CUOMO: Understood, and Governor Brown saying people have to understand, we're against Mother Nature, and nature is stronger than we are. So the battle continues there. Please stay on it for us, Chad. We'll check back with you in a little bit.

We also have other breaking news this morning, more threats out of North Korea. They're saying they're ready to use nuclear weapons against the U.S. and anybody else at any time.

CNN's Kathy Novak is live in Seoul, South Korea, with the latest. Where is this coming from and what do you think the point is here?

KATHY NOVAK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's coming from the state news agency, KCNA, Chris. And back in 2013 when North Korea last conducted a nuclear test, it promised that it would restart operations at a key nuclear facility. And this article in KCNA today says that is what has happened. That that facility is now fully operational and it's launching this threat against the United States. Take a listen.

"If the U.S. And other hostile forces persistently seek their reckless hostile policy towards the DPRK" -- or North Korea -- "and behave mischievously, the DPRK is fully ready to cope with them with nuclear weapons at any time."

Now the beginning of this year, the U.S. director of national intelligence, James Clapper, said that North Korea was indeed following through on this promise to expand that nuclear facility.

And part of the season this is of extra concern is the timing. It is coming ahead of a major anniversary that North Korea is planning to mark on October 10. There was already speculation that it could be planning some more provocation, perhaps a rocket launch, perhaps a nuclear test. So both South Korea and the United States are watching these developments very closely -- Alisyn.

[06:15:14] CAMEROTA: All right, Kathy. Thanks so much for all that background.

We have more breaking news to tell you about here at home. That man suspected of killing a professor at Delta State University in Mississippi and a woman that he lived with is dead. He was found by authorities with a self-inflicted gunshot. CNN's Alina Machado is live with the very latest.

What do we know, Alina? ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, authorities say

Shannon Lamb told investigators he wasn't going to jail. And when they finally caught up with him overnight, they say he pulled out a gun and killed himself.

Lamb, an instructor at Delta State University, was wanted in connection to the death of Ethan Schmidt was a history professor at the university. Police say he was shot in the head in his on-campus office yesterday morning. No gun was found at the scene. Only two shell casings were left behind.

And even though police were on the scene within two minutes, Schmidt's killer was able to get away.

Now, the shooting prompted a lockdown as local and state law enforcement agencies launched a manhunt. We later learned that Lamb was also wanted in the killing of 41-year-old Amy Prentiss. She was found dead in another city in Mississippi, some 300 miles from campus. Police say she lived with Lamb, and they believe she was killed earlier in the morning.

Now so far, authorities have not released any information on a possible motive for the professor's killing. All we know is that Lamb and Schmidt taught together at Delta State, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Frightening, frightening time for the students and the faculty there at Delta State. All right. Thanks for the update, Alina.

An unruly female passenger forced an American Airlines flight from Miami to Chicago to make an emergency landing in Indianapolis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing wrong. Ow!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Video there shows the woman being removed from the plane. Witnesses say her behavior became more erratic during the flight. She allegedly hit a fellow passenger, hit a flight attendant. The woman was arrested. She's been charged with battery, criminal recklessness and disrupting the operation of an aircraft.

Don't you find that you look at the people on a plane next to you a little bit and assess, is this person going to be a problem? Are they going to be cool?

CAMEROTA: All the time.

PEREIRA: And you think they look at you, too?

CAMEROTA: No. They can tell there's nothing unhinged that's going to happen. Actually, I am a bit of a nervous flyer. I do look at them and I think, like, "OK, do I need to tackle somebody?"

PEREIRA: We cool? We cool?

CUOMO: You never look at someone and say, "Do I have to tackle that person?"

CAMEROTA: I look at somebody and I say, "Who around me will tackle this person?"

CUOMO: I look around the plane and I try to figure out who the marshal is.

PEREIRA: Me, too.

CUOMO: Who's going to save me?

CAMEROTA: Me, too.

CUOMO: All right. The GOP field has lost one man. More are sure to go. And events like tomorrow's Republican debate right here on CNN can make or break a candidate. The first debate was for show. Now it is time to go. Donald Trump has a bullseye as big as his lead on his back. His strategy and others' against him, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:22:05] TRUMP: So the debate. I hear they're all going after me. Whatever. Whatever. No, I hear it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: One of those quotes that you'll hear in history at some point.

CAMEROTA: Whatever.

CUOMO: Whatever. But it does kind of sum up his attitude towards the people who are coming after him.

Donald Trump says he's ready to shine. And there is no need to hide before the debate. So he was in Texas, as you just saw, with over 10,000 cheering him on. But tomorrow -- ready for this? -- it's not really about him.

CAMEROTA: I'm sorry, what?

CUOMO: Yes. CNN political commentator, Republican consultant Margaret Hoover; CNN political analyst and editor in chief at "The Daily Beast," John Avlon.

And here's why. There's zero chance of Donald Trump dropping out in any near future, unless he decides to be king of some country somewhere else or something like that. But there is attrition going on here. Governor Perry is out. Who's next? I hear -- tell me if you hear differently -- the people are saying we've got to hang on; we've got to find a way to hold on and make it through the next seven, eight months and get in the real race.

So is it fair to say that it's not all about Trump tomorrow? He doesn't have to prove himself?

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: No. I mean, the guy has got a towering lead over the rest of the party. The question is who else in the field is going to stand up, step up and stand out from the pack, probably by punching at Donald Trump? But also putting up credentials (ph)...

CAMEROTA: Who do you predict that's going to be?

AVLON: Look, Marco Rubio could be a great candidate in the cycle and he has faded into the background. He's got to step up to the table.

CUOMO: You suggest punching at Donald Trump, though?

AVLON: Not necessarily standing up and punching at Donald Trump. But you've got to show a vision and a contrast with this kind of a threat.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: ... opposite.

AVLON: Yes, Jeb Bush has got to do that.

CAMEROTA: OK, go ahead.

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The only person I think that has it in the make-up to be able to do that is Carly Fiorina, not because she's going to go at him directly. Nobody wins when you go after him directly. But she's best and most effective with the counterpunch and also drawing the contrast. She's a shrewd candidate.

But truly, Ben Carson is the only one who's actually apologized to Donald Trump for going after him. And he's come out, frankly, he's come out OK. He is the anti-Trump. Right? He's the guy that Iowans are actually going to like. And by the way, it shows.

CUOMO: But he's not a positive opposite.

HOOVER: He's surging everywhere.

CUOMO: He's not a positive opposite of Donald Trump.

HOOVER: But nobody wants a positive opposite at this point in the cycle. What they want is an outsider who's authentic, who can offer something different. Carly Fiorina has that. Ben Carson has that. But they don't have the anger and the -- you know, all the baggage that Donald Trump has.

AVLON: They also have no governing experience between the three people you just mentioned. But that's OK. HOOVER: OK. Sure.

AVLON: When you attack them...

CUOMO: That's a bad word, though, right now.

CAMEROTA: That is a bad word. Experience.

AVLON: That's a real problem in the Republican party right now, is that their hatred of government has translated into a dislike of people who have experience governing, which is a total recipe for a bad president.

CUOMO: They say you'll get good people around you. Get up on that stage tomorrow night and let me know why you're for me as much as Trump is and why you'll stop playing this game; and do it in a way that doesn't make me hate you more than I love you, and I'll put you in there. That's where that party is right now.

HOOVER: That's not just the Republican Party; let's be clear. I mean, Bernie Sanders, even though he's been a senator for 25 years, is the outsider candidate. Why is he doing well? Because he's not Hillary Clinton, who's been in Washington also for 25 years.

[06:25:02] I mean, there's this insane anti-outsider -- it's understandable feeling in the...

CUOMO: Anti-insider.

HOOVER: I'm sorry. Anti-insider, pro-outsider. Hate Washington...

CAMEROTA: Margaret, I'm curious, because you've given candidates strategies.

HOOVER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: What do you mean that Carly Fiorina has to counterpunch but not throw the first jab. What does that look like on Wednesday?

HOOVER: You know, when it looks like...

CUOMO: I love when you talk boxing. I want you to know that.

HOOVER: Here's what it looks like for every single candidate. Every single candidate, none of them can let Trump define them. You cannot simply let him have the first word. Otherwise, I mean, even the questions are, like, is Jeb Bush or Ben Carson too low energy? Is Jeb Bush low energy? Why are they saying, "low energy"? Because Jeb -- because they have been defined by Trump as low energy. You have to push back against Trump defining you without actually attacking Trump directly, because you lose.

AVLON: And the way this is, look, when you argue with a fool, you've got two fools. What you need to do is actually stand up and say that this is a cancer on our party and the conservative movement, that we need to stand up and set a positive, inclusive direction for America that is deeply conservative and do that with a sense of integrity. And that's possible. That is redundant (ph).

CUOMO: I said that, and you gave me the stink eye. Your husband says it, and you're looking at him adoringly.

AVLON: One's better. One's better...

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: "A," you're not my husband. "B," you know, what you say is right except that it can't be that explicit. It has to be more implicit. Carly's quite good at that. I mean, what did she do? She came out with an ad that...

CUOMO: Good ad. Good ad.

HOOVER: The "my face" ad. She didn't even talk about Trump. She didn't reference Trump. And frankly, it was more of a hit at Hillary than it was at Donald Trump. I mean, it's got to be...

CUOMO: Two for.

HOOVER: ... more implicit.

CAMEROTA: "The New York Times" is reporting that Jeb Bush is going through, quote, "rigorous practice sessions" and, quote, "preparing pointed responses."

CUOMO: Is he punching meat? You know what I'm saying?

AVLON: I want the rocky montage of Jeb...

CUOMO: That's absolutely what I'm saying.

AVLON: That's exactly right.

CAMEROTA: Egg yolks in his morning orange juice.

AVLON: Making a training video, now.

CAMEROTA: Hold on a second.

AVLON: George H.W. would be the, like, the father figure.

CUOMO: Right. He's an opponent.

CAMEROTA: That's hilarious.

AVLON: "Don't make me throw it in."

CAMEROTA: Is there anything worse than, like, "I'm going to be feisty" and then that is...?

HOOVER: That feels very Mitt Romney, like trying to sort of get out of the straitjacket. And that -- that's the problem. Jeb just has to be Jeb. The question is style versus substance.

CUOMO: But you know what name we're not saying here? And I only have a little bit, only because I've mentioned it before, but John Kasich -- you know, you're all over my positive opposite. You know, it cost me a whole lunch to sit down with this guy who does this for a living. And you gave me positive opposite. I thought I had a great line, and you crushed it. But that's OK.

So he is somebody in this field, who yes, he may have that dirty word of governing experience, but he really checks so many boxes that could make him formidable in the general. And he needs tomorrow night to stand up and say why he's different than these other people...

AVLON: He does.

CUOMO: ... in a way that doesn't get him punched in the nose by the big man.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CUOMO: But allows him to make this case that we are better than what we are right now.

AVLON: And that's what he succeeded doing first. He's got to set a positive, inclusive vision to the Republican Party, sort of a compassionate conservative rooted in Midwest governorship.

And right now, he's not big enough for other people to attack down to. But it's going to be a big debate for Kasich to continue that message as an alternative. Do you agree?

HOOVER: I agree. He's solidified his status as a top-tier candidate already. I mean, he's third in New Hampshire. So he just has to keep...

CUOMO: But he's spent a lot of time and money there. And it's really the only place he's popped so far.

HOOVER: Well, you know what? Ask John McCain if you need much more.

CAMEROTA: There you go.

CUOMO: Fair point.

CAMEROTA: John, Margaret, great to see you guys. We will be looking forward to all of your insights for the next 24 and many hours beyond. OK. Thanks so much.

CUOMO: I don't think I'm going to get my lunch reimbursed now, because Margaret was all over my positive opposite line. They're going to say, "This is an unjustified lunch. We can't pay for it, because it got you nothing."

Tune in tomorrow night at 6 p.m. Eastern for the CNN Republican presidential debate. This is the first set of field you'll see: governor, senator, governor, senator, big field there. And then the primetime event begins at 8 p.m. Eastern. I'm not going to name what everybody else here is or is not. So don't miss it, tomorrow night. We'll see you there -- Mick.

PEREIRA: All right. We have an update for you coming on the death toll. It continues to rise in southern Utah. Torrential rains triggering severe flooding, cars swept away, people still inside. We'll have more right after a break.

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